SH5 Wishlist

[looney]

Which Uboat was it that sunk a passenger ship, but then took the survivors life boats in tow - (with the intention off dropping off close to a neutal port)
unfortunaley it was attacked by aircraft so it had to break tow with the survivours and dive.
But i guess (hope) the aircraft called for transport to pick up the surviors afterwards?
Im sure it happenned early war but I forget which U-boat, kudos to kpt for trying to help those people, many other Uboat Skippers weren't nearly as humane...

Your talking about the Laconia indecent. This could actually explained to be a warcrime from the american high command.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconia_incident

P.s. War is never humane, there where almost no accounts of war crimes committed by Uboat Skippers, there was only 1 actually accused and found guilty of committing a war crime. Allied skippers have a worse record, although none of them have been brought to court ("War does not determine who is right - only who is left. ~Bertrand Russell").

Ships taking on casualties where not being attacked.

-edit-
I can't find the source of my knowledge about the crimes commited ..must be on some of the sites below:
http://Uboat.net, http://www.uboatarchive.net/, http://www.uboataces.com/

[Sone7]

Two books Iron Coffins and Wolfgang Luth U-Boat Ace said they took Capt or highest surviving officer on board for questioning then sent them back to lifeboats.
...while in "Das letzte Boot", based on memories of Wolfgang Hirschfeld, we have examples of taking captains/officers as prisoners, all way back to France.

[HundertzehnGustav]

I would stop me a passenger liner, and get my crew a good shower
and take a lot of good food over to my U-boot.

[Nisgeis]

Allied skippers have a worse record, although none of them have been brought to court ("War does not determine who is right - only who is left. ~Bertrand Russell").

Rubbish, I saw U-571 and the German Captain clearly machine gunned the unarmed survivors in the lifeboat. What's YOUR source? :-).

[XLjedi]

It certainly seems egregious to attack unarmed lifeboats filled with civilians or merchant marines. But what if it was a troop ship and the boats were filled with soldiers?

Is it a war crime to shoot at unarmed enemy combatants in life boats? :06:

[Nisgeis]

It certainly seems egregious to attack unarmed lifeboats filled with civilians or merchant marines. But what if it was a troop ship and the boats were filled with soldiers?

Is it a war crime to shoot at unarmed enemy combatants in life boats? :06:

I haven't been able to find a copy of the Geneva Convention applicable at the time of WWII (as it is updated regularly), but the copy from 1955 seems quite sensible - e.g. you can't be held responsible for sinking a hospital ship if it isn't marked as one clearly. For the troops, I should think that they would carry their weapons and EQ with them, but in the case that they did not, then how would you show this to the enemy? If the enemy can't tell they are unarmed, they have to assume they are all armed and fighting units. In any case, the troops would be considered 'on base' if they were on a troop ship.

For lifeboats, it is not legal to do any harm to survivors who are shipwrecked and unarmed. This includes people in the water, so you can't for example drive a DD through a group of survivors and drop DCs on that spot. It is not legal to give preferential treatment to survivors, unless of a medical nature (e.g. you can't treat your own troops before the enemy).

For lifeboats though, if they fire on a ship, they can be blown out of the water, as they are still a fighting craft - otherwise you could have a battleship 'lifeboat'. A lifeboat with a machine gun is not a lifeboat.

[Truckerich]

I ounce in awhile try to pick up the enemy and capture the enemy in the oceans.[ P.O.A.]0
Like you said. They are unarmed. It has happened and would like to think they would do the same for me . I don't like sharks.lo


It certainly seems egregious to attack unarmed lifeboats filled with civilians or merchant marines. But what if it was a troop ship and the boats were filled with soldiers?

Is it a war crime to shoot at unarmed enemy combatants in life boats? :06:

[Platapus]

Is it a war crime to shoot at unarmed enemy combatants in life boats?

This is not a trivial question to answer. While the morality of shooting people in lifeboats can be clear, when attempting to try someone for a war crime, a specific international law needs to be cited. In the case of Heinz Eck, prosecutors had to scramble to find a law he supposedly violated. Since this took place at sea, it complicated matters greatly.

There were several treaties signed that addressed how combatants and were to be treated on land warfare. The Hague conventions were clear that a member of the military was considered a combatant unless some specific and limiting circumstances presented themselves. These included, but are not limited to

1. Surrender
2. Injured to the extent that they no longer were a military threat.

Prior to the 1949 conventions, that was about the only protections a military member had from being shot on the battlefield. If you did not surrender or were injured (and took no hostile action) you were a viable military target.

The nature of naval warfare were significantly different from land warfare that different Hague conventions governed naval action. In naval warfare the definition of whether a military member was a combatant is different from land warfare.

During the Eck trial, the applicable reference used in his trial was the “Convention (X) for the Adaptation to Maritime Warfare of the Principles of the Geneva Convention. The Hague, 18 October 1907.”
http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/FULL/225?OpenDocument

[if anyone is interested in historical war law conventions, the following site is worth bookmarking
http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/TOPICS?OpenView]

The courts ruled that Eck’s violated article 16

Art. 16. After every engagement, the two belligerents, so far as military interests permit, shall take steps to look for the shipwrecked, sick, and wounded, and to protect them, as well as the dead, against pillage and ill-treatment.
They shall see that the burial, whether by land or sea, or cremation of the dead shall be preceded by a careful examination of the corpse. Frankly this is a shaky ground to convict Eck, but no one is claiming that he got a fair trial here.

The reason the courts used that article is that at the time, there was no international treaty that addressed military members in lifeboats.

Simply being in a lifeboat is not the same as surrendering, nor can it be assumed that being in a lifeboat renders a military member incapable of military action due to injury.

So no, during World War II there was no international treaty that would forbid the shooting of military members, who have not surrendered, who are, uninjured, in lifeboats..... But there is more to laws of war than international treaties.

In 1921, there was a trial in Germany concerning war crime atrocities committed by the Captain (Lieutenant Helmut Patzig) of the U-86 in the matter of the sinking of the HMHS Llandovery Castle (sunk 27 Jun 18).

The HMHS Landovery Castle was a Hospital ship that was torpedoed by the U-86. Whether this sinking was justified has been debated as there are indicators that it was carrying war materials. The torpedoing is not the point of issue however. After the sinking and after interrogating some of the crew, Patzing ordered the U-86 to rundown some of the lifeboats and to fire on others.

After the war, Patzing, was not tried under international courts, but tried in German courts. Patzing and two other officers were convicted, not of war crimes but of homicide. The German Supreme Court issued this statement

The firing on the boats was art offence against the law of nations. In war on land the killing of unarmed enemies is not allowed; similarly, in war at sea the killing of shipwrecked people, who have taken refuge in lifeboats, is forbidden.http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/lords/1950/apr/25/the-peleus-trial

So while there was no international treaty that addressed whether military members in lifeboats can or can not be shot, there was legal precedent in Germany and Eck should have known that his actions would certainly break German law.

Is it a war crime to shoot at unarmed enemy combatants in life boats?

During World War II, no it would not be a war crime, unless the occupants both surrendered and did not take any offensive military action. However, the shooting may have violated domestic laws. In the case of Germany, it would not be a war crime, but it would have been a crime.

Like I wrote, not a trivial nor easy question to answer prior to the 1949 conventions.

[FIREWALL]

Here we go again. The train just went off the track. :haha:

[Platapus]

Here we go again. The train just went off the track. :haha:


Don't worry. We got pretty much to the end of the original track. :yawn:

[Arclight]

And it was just going downhill anyway. :D (j/k)

[Jimbuna]

Here we go again. The train just went off the track. :haha:


http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/6942/popcorncowtx0.gif :DL

[XLjedi]

Here we go again. The train just went off the track. :haha:

I reserve the right to hijack my own threads :D

[chrysanthos]

one question please...are the surface ship mods from sh4 are combatible with 5?

[cardiff]

Ships sinking in different ways (listing to the port starboard etc)
Lifeboats
Ability to move through the ships with no clipping (like modded in SH4)
More merchants and coastal patrol craft
Better visual damage
Complete re woking of aircraft so they look like they fly even and are not just suspended in air.
Torpedo attacking aircraft
Missions based on historical events (not just go to here and sink X amouint of ships)
The little band playing music as you leave and return
Ships not disapearing when they sink, i would like them to actual hit the sea floor before they disapear

[stoianm]

Ships sinking in different ways (listing to the port starboard etc)
Lifeboats use this mod from here - it is working in sh5: http://www.gamefront.com/files/16741165/Wo...ts_Mod_1.1.rar (http://www.gamefront.com/files/16741165/Wo...ts_Mod_1.1.rar)
Ability to move through the ships with no clipping (like modded in SH4) - if i am not misteaken this is like teleporting from TDW uis - so use TDW uis for this:http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=166093
More merchants and coastal patrol craft - this dunno but seems they are hist acurate in numbers - if not like you can add more in the campaigns
Better visual damage - this is done - i think in tdw uis also
Complete re woking of aircraft so they look like they fly even and are not just suspended in air.
Torpedo attacking aircraft - use the airtorpedoes mod but first instal the brain for the sh5: IRAI v30 by tdw
Missions based on historical events (not just go to here and sink X amouint of ships) - use little campaign mod and the open horizon mod - some changes in campaigns request
The little band playing music as you leave and return - you can have that easy - just copy in the gramophone folder the music that you want to listen and ply by gramophone when you are in game
Ships not disapearing when they sink, i would like them to actual hit the sea floor before they disapear
read in red pls

[chrysanthos]

i wish...the best moders here make a lots of surface playble battleships just like sh4:03:

[stoianm]

i wish...the best moders here make a lots of surface playble battleships just like sh4:03:
You need to catch the golden fish to resolve your wish:DL - just kidding - i think will have this soon - i understood that privater it is working at a software to make this posible:up:

[Jester_UK]

A larger variety of ships would be great. Fingers crossed Privateer can pull it off.

The small variety of surface ships is SHV's major weakness over the previous versions in my opinion.

[Drewcifer]

The little band playing music as you leave and return - you can have that easy - just copy in the gramophone folder the music that you want to listen and ply by gramophone when you are in game


Everything you said was true minus this one thing stoianm. What he meant was the band that actually phyiscally plays as you depart port for patrol.
They were in sh3, a graphical representation of crowd celebrating, and band playing, in the flavor of das boot.

[stoianm]

Everything you said was true minus this one thing stoianm. What he meant was the band that actually phyiscally plays as you depart port for patrol.
They were in sh3, a graphical representation of crowd celebrating, and band playing, in the flavor of das boot.
sorry - my bad... he can have this also if he use the hansolo harbor mod... i did not know he is refering at this... never played sh3:)