What about player-lead wolfpacks?

[urfisch]

this is a question i ask myself for years now...since there are ai-wolfpacks, which are generated and attack with deckgun or "fake-torps"...

but there is no interaction. would be great to have some ai-boats, which are placed all over the ocean...and lead to your position, when sending a radio message of a convoi-contact! therefore there must be the possibility to give "orders" to the ai-boats. some kind of crossing in the code...a linkage, that make the ai-boats react on such a message. i dont know, if this is given...

is it possible?

[bigboywooly]

Most mods use AI uboats patrolling
GWX does for sure - this one passed me in BF36 the other day when I was heading for patrol grid

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/Tags/ScreenHunter_002.jpg

BUT
Am not sure even if you send a radio contact whether they come or not

I always send a contact report when watching a convoy and apart from the Lolwaffe if close to coast nothing has shown up

And then as Dietrich rightly says the AI would be limited if did turn up as surfaced
Sure they would have the surfaced speed to get to you but wouldnt last long
Submerged AI units would only be of help if right in the convoy path as slow speed

Tis a pity the wolfpacks were dropped in development as time closed in

[iambecomelife]

It would be easier to do in a Single-Player Stand-Alone mission, rather than the Campaign Career. Then you could use triggers to spawn in additional units, based on a specific scenario. You would be somewhat limited as to how those triggers can be activated, so it would necessarily be something like reaching a certain area, or destroying a certain unit. The best thing for you to do, would be to have a look at the Mission Editors User Guide (p42) and look at the trigger options. Then, when the trigger is set, you would use it to set an Event (such as spawning in the relevant units). If you need it, the link to the Mission Editors User Guide is: http://files.filefront.com/sh3+missioneditor+v12pdf/;11915465;/fileinfo.html

However, I think you will find that the U-boat AI is very limited, so the mission would be somewhat contrived. With no AI-controlled torpedoes, it is really only going to work for deck gun action, or simply to have some additional boats in the area.

Personally, I think your best option for a player-lead wolfpack is to play Multiplayer games. :yep:

There are a couple of mods where invisible high-calibre shells are used as torpedoes; they work quite well. I will look into this when I get the chance...

[Hitman]

The biggest problem is that there is no submarine AI programmed, and therefore AI U-boats will just behave as surface vessels (At surface or peri depth) and nothing else. They won't go deep to evade or try to go inadvertedly into a convoy, they will instead go directly against it and fire their deck guns (Or virtual torpedoes) in kamikaze style.

[bigboywooly]

The only problem with the shell as a torp work around is the very high speed of the shell
Be nice to see an actual torp in the water
Even then the escorts see the scope as a surfaced ship IIRC so open up on it with all they have
And if my memory is not playing tricks they do try evade DC but only by tuning not depth changes as Htman said - no intelligent sub AI

[Madox58]

The scope does not have to be surfaced.
Even when AI Subs are placed underwater,
they are useing ship controllers and the Game
'sees' them as ships that are not sunk.
A not sunk ship is on the surface.
If it's on the surface?
It will be fired upon.

Even the diving Sub is still useing ship controllers.
So it's on the surface all the time to the Game.

[geosub1978]

In WA 1 series I spotted periscopes outside PORTUGAL coast and it turned out to be a VIIB wolfpack! I fired a torpedo against a dived submarine to see what will happen and the only damage was some paint scratching at the stern. I don't know if this has anything to do with how the game "sees" an AI dived submarine...

[Hitman]

In WA 1 series I spotted periscopes outside PORTUGAL coast and it turned out to be a VIIB wolfpack! I fired a torpedo against a dived submarine to see what will happen and the only damage was some paint scratching at the stern. I don't know if this has anything to do with how the game "sees" an AI dived submarine...


IIRC the AI wolfpack U-Boats were purposedly given some "armour" to help them survive through some depth charging. If they were normal U-Boats they would be sunk in two passes at much :hmm:

[Madox58]

I don't know what WA 1 series is.
Sorry.

But I can say this.
We 'see' things as we should.
But the Game Engine 'sees' things differently.

If a Unit uses Ship Controllers?
The Game 'sees' it as a Ship, not a Sub.
Ships float and are targets unless sunk.
The Game 'sees' it that way and no other.

And if it's 'seen' in this way?
Put in to near a group of Armed Ships
and all Hades breaks out!

[sergbuto]

In WA 1 series I spotted periscopes outside PORTUGAL coast and it turned out to be a VIIB wolfpack! I fired a torpedo against a dived submarine to see what will happen and the only damage was some paint scratching at the stern. I don't know if this has anything to do with how the game "sees" an AI dived submarine...


IIRC the AI wolfpack U-Boats were purposedly given some "armour" to help them survive through some depth charging. If they were normal U-Boats they would be sunk in two passes at much :hmm:

I do not think that the damage model of AI wolfpack U-Boats was strengthen in WA because my mod of the AI submerged U-boat was used as it is in there. This AI submerged U-boat had the stock damage model as for the player sub. The stock damage model allows for easy survival after one torpedo hit if I remember correctly.

[Madox58]

Pardon My ignorence, but what is WA?
:hmm:

[bigboywooly]

War Ace mod per chance ???
Not to be confused with WAC IIRC

[geosub1978]

WA=War Ace, was the ancestor of WAC=War Ace Campaign.

[Madox58]

Ah!!
Thank You.
:up:

I've hated acronyms since I was in the
ARMY
:rotfl:

[urfisch]

interesting. and what about the dependence of ai-subs on players radio messages? is there any linkage possible?

[Madox58]

As much as I'd lean towards saying no?
I have to say I have no idea.

Just when I really think something can not be done?
Someone figures out how to do it!
:yep:

I don't hold all the answers.
I know for a fact not even the Devs have them.
(I talked to Dan and He stated somethings were done that made them wonder)
:up:

[urfisch]

hmmm...sad, but maybe the way it is.

i dont know how it might work. first of all, one has to figure out, how the triggers in the editor work, right? and maybe you can make something with an external program. but somehow the game already recognizes, when you send a message via radio...as you get answers. and maybe theres a way to use this...for another "answer"...so the "answer" to your radio message is an order/trigger to ai-boats. the ai-boats can be modified by a trigger, thats possible. if we find out how these triggers work and if they can be connected to the way the game "answers" to your radio messages...

then there might be a way to make radio messages be a trigger for ai-boats - and
they would appear in your sector.

cause, somehow the game already sends planes to attack a sighted convoi, when you send a contact message in coastal areas. this might be a useful thing...

its just a mindmap...dont know if theres something useful in it.

[bigboywooly]

Well just wrote a single mission with a convoy which i was tracking
Had a VIIC AI boat 5 KM the other side of the convoy on same course
A IIB AI baot and a KFK both set at 0 speed but not docked
And a Type 34 DD around 10 KM from the convoy on same heading also

Sent in 3 contact reports over 7 hours of tracking and nothing came to help
lol

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/Tags/ScreenHunter_031.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/Tags/ScreenHunter_030.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/Tags/ScreenHunter_025.jpg

So I would say no AI sea units dont respond to contact reports
Ran it 3 times same result

Even cloned an airbase and instead of aircraft had subs in the groups
Even that didnt send anything - didnt CTD which was a bonus tho and only had a radius of 12 KM

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/Tags/ScreenHunter_036.jpg

Maybe with some more digging around who knows

[Hitman]

The thing is, if we could get the game to recognize and handle U-Boats as aicraft but with inverted height values, we could be close to having wolfpacks on demand. Just take a look at this:

-You send a contact message to BdU, and an aircraft base in the central atlantic spawns not a squadron of airplanes, but a group of AI subs

-The Ai subs will head to the enemy convoy at standard heigth (zero) and shoot what they have (Torpedos instead of gun shells)

-They will cricle around the enemy, while shooting

-They could go higher to escape enemy fire. But since heigth values would be inverted, they would in fact go deeper :D

Does someone have the skills to try and make a fake aircraft that looks and acts like an U-Boat? :hmm:

[urfisch]

The thing is, if we could get the game to recognize and handle U-Boats as aicraft but with inverted height values, we could be close to having wolfpacks on demand. Just take a look at this:

-You send a contact message to BdU, and an aircraft base in the central atlantic spawns not a squadron of airplanes, but a group of AI subs

-The Ai subs will head to the enemy convoy at standard heigth (zero) and shoot what they have (Torpedos instead of gun shells)

-They will cricle around the enemy, while shooting

-They could go higher to escape enemy fire. But since heigth values would be inverted, they would in fact go deeper :D

Does someone have the skills to try and make a fake aircraft that looks and acts like an U-Boat? :hmm:

very interesting idea!

but you also have to find out, where the trigger for this "air-attack" event is hidden. cause, there are just planes in the near of the german coast...and when you call for uboats in the mid-atlantik, even we get this "fake-planes" done, there would be no uboats, as they just would spawn when you are in coastal areas...

right?

[iambecomelife]

The thing is, if we could get the game to recognize and handle U-Boats as aicraft but with inverted height values, we could be close to having wolfpacks on demand. Just take a look at this:

-You send a contact message to BdU, and an aircraft base in the central atlantic spawns not a squadron of airplanes, but a group of AI subs

-The Ai subs will head to the enemy convoy at standard heigth (zero) and shoot what they have (Torpedos instead of gun shells)

-They will cricle around the enemy, while shooting

-They could go higher to escape enemy fire. But since heigth values would be inverted, they would in fact go deeper :D

Does someone have the skills to try and make a fake aircraft that looks and acts like an U-Boat? :hmm:

very interesting idea!

but you also have to find out, where the trigger for this "air-attack" event is hidden. cause, there are just planes in the near of the german coast...and when you call for uboats in the mid-atlantik, even we get this "fake-planes" done, there would be no uboats, as they just would spawn when you are in coastal areas...

right?

If I'm not mistaken the reason why aircraft spawn at the coasts is because that's where the airbases are. So all we have to do is edit the campaign layers and place "airbases" in the ocean where historically most of the great convoy battles occurred. The beauty of it is that the game has no 3d representation of the airbase object - no chance of stumbling on an airfield in the middle of the water. I think you can edit the types of aircraft that a particular airbase is likely to spawn. What we could do is add a new entry to Data\Roster\English.cfg:

Type300=Fighter
Type301=Bomber
Type302=Dive Bomber
Type303=Torpedo Bomber
Type304=Patrol
Type305=Helicopter
Type306=Environmental
Type307=Dummy U-Boat

And set the "air base" spawn probability to 100% for the dummy U-Boats and 0 to everything else.

[bigboywooly]

Yep Iambecome is right
Airbases are placed close to coast to give coverage over sea

Nothing to stop an " air " base being dumped in the sea with subs in
Not too many or you will be overun

Didnt work the way I did it but Hitmans idea might be a goer

[urfisch]

yepp, its a nice idea!

but we need to figure out, how we get the ai-boats linked to the specific airbases...and make them behave like the planes (find their targets, attack, etc.) when they spawn...