All members read this

[Onkel Neal]

Just a friendly reminder, play nice, no sarcastic comments to others, don't start any flame wars. Anyone and everyone is welcome here to mod SH4 as long as they behave. If you have a problem with someone, ignore them or take it up in e-mail. The mods will not be spending a lot of time playing referee so watch out.

[CaptainNemo]

Be nice and fair! :yep:

[Xantrokoles]

But...But.....EHHH But...
...OK:up:

[Lynx2069]

Aye, Captain :up:

[JU_88]

Neal Can I make a suggestion and its a shame to have to suggest this but, it just might be worth rearranging the SH forums slightly to somthing like so:


SILENT HUNTER 4 PTO General Discussion

SILENT HUNTER 4 PTO mods workshop

SILENT HUNTER 4 Uboat addon

SILENT HUNTER 4 Uboat & ATO Mods workshop


SILENT HUNTER 3 General Discussion

SILENT HUNTER 3 mod workshop

I know its drastic but This way the people with 'extreamist' views on sub types and theatre preference (yes, both sides) can more or less stick their own/prefered forum. Some of the trouble makers will be exposed pretty quickly if they go making spiteful/baiting posts in the forum of their non-preference.

For instance, if I dont like XXX theatre, then i dont really have a legitimate reason to even be reading XXX forum, let alone posting in it.
People who enjoy both theaters can happily post in both without issue.

It just an idea.

regards
JU.

[Carotio]

Thank God, I like both theaters.... :lol:

But JU88 has a point, not that it hasn't been suggested before, but then again if people could just behave and respect other opinons, even the opposing ones, there wouldn't be any problems, so let's stick to that. :up:

[JU_88]

Thank God, I like both theaters.... :lol:

But JU88 has a point, not that it hasn't been suggested before, but then again if people could just behave and respect other opinons, even the opposing ones, there wouldn't be any problems, so let's stick to that. :up:


I wish it could be as simple as good behaviour and respect too, but in practice this just doesnt seem to be acheiveable as there is a growing number of people that are simply unable to contain there 'opposing opinions', some of which is not just harmless banter - but driven by real hatred, how and why? i have no idea, but it needs to stop, which is why im suggesting this.
If the bridges keep getting torched then at some point you just have to build a wall.

[Ducimus]

Neal Can I make a suggestion and its a shame to have to suggest this but, it just might be worth rearranging the SH forums slightly to somthing like so:


SILENT HUNTER 4 PTO General Discussion

SILENT HUNTER 4 PTO mods workshop

SILENT HUNTER 4 Uboat addon

SILENT HUNTER 4 Uboat & ATO Mods workshop


SILENT HUNTER 3 General Discussion

SILENT HUNTER 3 mod workshop
..

I've made a similar suggestion several months ago; on several occasions. This rift between people first reared it's ugly head the instant SH4 was announced to be a PTO game, and has grown into a wider and wider rift ever since.

Up until the uboat addon, Sh4 was its own thing, and this growing rift was a non factor. One game was one corner the other was the other corner, nobody went at anybody elses throat, and everybody was happy. The instant the uboat addon came into the picture, it's own discussion and mod forum wasn't only desireable, but neccessary. For one, obviously the differences in opinion. After all, one certainly doesn't put fans of opposing football or soccar teams into the same bar after a big game. Thats just asking for a fist fight. For two, both theaters are large enough, and have enough interest behind them, that both deserve their own forum.

[Alex]

If the bridges keep getting torched then at some point you just have to build a wall.

I agree.

[Rockin Robbins]

Well, not necessarily a wall, but a nice fence. Just enough of a boundary so that if you are in the other territory you know you are bound by their conventions. What is it about good fences making for good neighbors?

The intent is not to restrict entry, but to make cultural boundaries visible and easy to understand.

[Mikhayl]

Right now, 200+ people watching the 3 SH4 forums.
From time to time, a few buggers forgetting the purpose of said forums to bitch and troll.
If I had to choose between creating and moderating another forum to please a few buggers out of 200+ people who don't give a damn about them, or simply ban said buggers and be done with it, I'd make my mind in a split second. But that's just me :)
So what about we all stick to Neal's first post and that's it :up:

[Jimbuna]

I agree with Neal:

"no sarcastic comments to others, don't start any flame wars".

[Uber Gruber]

After all, one certainly doesn't put fans of opposing football or soccar teams into the same bar after a big game.

Which is a shame because rugby fans can quite happily sit in the same bar after a big game without the slightest of incidents. We're all adults here so i'm sure we can all get along without having to build a wall...the notion is silly in the extreme in my oh so humble oppinion.

[Onkel Neal]

You know, I don't claim to have all the answers or perfect skills when it comes to running a community. I will say that I have poured a lot of time and effort into helping keep Subsim a place for everyone, and without good moderators this place wouldn't have a chance at remaining civil. Sure, there will always be some friction from time to time, in any forum. I know that most people mean well, even if they occasionally step across the line of good taste or good judgment. And that's the basis for keeping things loose. But even with hundreds of well-intentioned members, it only takes one petty, selfish guy to wreck the whole thing.

The strength of Subsim is the community. There cannot be a community with division. Each of us must make an effort to be honest, patient, and considerate of others. It starts today. Right now.

I appreciate your help.
Neal

[Onkel Neal]

Neal Can I make a suggestion and its a shame to have to suggest this but, it just might be worth rearranging the SH forums slightly to somthing like so:


SILENT HUNTER 4 PTO General Discussion

SILENT HUNTER 4 PTO mods workshop

SILENT HUNTER 4 Uboat addon

SILENT HUNTER 4 Uboat & ATO Mods workshop


SILENT HUNTER 3 General Discussion

SILENT HUNTER 3 mod workshop

I know its drastic but This way the people with 'extreamist' views on sub types and theatre preference (yes, both sides) can more or less stick their own/prefered forum. Some of the trouble makers will be exposed pretty quickly if they go making spiteful/baiting posts in the forum of their non-preference.

For instance, if I dont like XXX theatre, then i dont really have a legitimate reason to even be reading XXX forum, let alone posting in it.
People who enjoy both theaters can happily post in both without issue.

It just an idea.

regards
JU.

Thanks, JU, it's an idea that may be necessary. My only concern, how to keep one group from "invading" other groups' threads in those forums and squabbling? I mean, yes, some PTO type guy may not be interested in ATO mods but he will still be ignorant enough to make a rude post in that forum... in the end I think we will still have the same trouble.

thanks
Neal

[cgjimeneza]

Respect your peers, we are (basically) sub simmers.

in difference there is strenght, but to attack just for the sake of attacking or to just create tension is wrong.

we have representatives of many countries, I dont know if there ever was a poll, but in the months I have been here, readyng and commenting, sometimes laughing, sometimes offering advice and finding old friends I have grown.

lets keep it that way, if you offend with the intention of offending, not just presenting a difference of opinnion your days here may be numbered. I dont like censorship but this is a community and it must have rules of behavior

those are my two colones worht of oppinion,

[Ducimus]

The strength of Subsim is the community. There cannot be a community with division.
Neal

Personnaly, i believe that division will always exist, unless the causes of that division are addressed directly. While there are a number of things that have had me upset in the least month or two, i beleive the causes of this division can be narrowed down to two items. Unfortunately, its probably impossible to discuss those two items without opening a can of worms the size of a 50 gallon drum.

[Onkel Neal]

I think everyone will have one or two items that they believe causes division. I know I do. Maybe it's time to open that can of worms and clean it up. List your two items. Be matter of fact.

[Rockin Robbins]

Sounds like an invitation:up:. This will take some thought to do properly..:hmm:.

[Ducimus]

Maybe it is time to settle things. Im going to draft things up as a petition, along the lines of "We the undersigned agree...". I can only hope that everyone who i've ever heard complain (both past and present) by the way of PM or message board thread, will show some unity and resolve if neccessary. Otherwise, since ive always been the "spokesman" for want of a better term, with no support, ill be left hung out to dry.

[Suicide Charlie]

While my participation here has been quite low over the years I still have been to quite a few forums in my time and from all my observations this forum, as a whole is the most mature and quiet one I've ever encoutered.

To be quite honest you guys encompass the perfect gaming community. That's one of the reasons why I love Ubisoft simulations. The IL-2 community was awesome, but you guys top even them in ingenuinity, production, and attitude. I don't even see what the big deal is I haven't seen any real flare ups. Even I make a sarcastic comment here and there, but you can't censor everything in human interaction. It's a forums for a game guys. Don't let something as small and petty as sequels of a game ruin what's here.

[DedEye]

While my participation here has been quite low over the years I still have been to quite a few forums in my time and from all my observations this forum, as a whole is the most mature and quiet one I've ever encoutered.

QFT :up:

Let's keep it that way :yep:

[Madox58]

All I can say is,
The Ugly is gonna start soon.
:nope:
I will refrain from any involvement being prejudged.

[Mush Martin]

@Neal :up: (me sarcastic?)

[edit] after some consideration.
players ought to be able to post tactics on the Players thread
without someone from the mod forum taking it as a personal criticism
or supposing that such would destroy the game for everybody,
thats silly not everybody plays the same way.

I dont have a second beef.

[Ducimus]

All I can say is,
The Ugly is gonna start soon.
:nope:
I will refrain from any involvement being prejudged.

Maybe, maybe not.

Ive been talking with 7 other people not including myself, and the grievences that most seem to agree on have nothing to do with Lehman, Ducimus, Uboats, nor GWX in and of itself.

Since my big mouth has volunteered me, i get to stick my neck out for the chopping block. When a final draft is written, it will be posted in petition form. Frankly im tired of it all and would rather move on, but Neal has opened the door to resolve things here and now. And, being frank again, i think that if these things are not resolved, the vicious cycles will continue, which is the only reason why im bothering with this at all. Its much easier to say, "screw it all" and do something else. It's time for it to end, but without addressing the root causes, it won't, no matter how much all of us wish it would.

[Metl]

Holy crap I missed something somewhere! I'm not a modder, but I use a lot of them, and am very thankful for the ones I do use. You guys rock, regardless of whether I use your mod or not.

What in the world could have opened such a chasm between everyone? Are we all not here to enjoy the same thing? What happened to the community? How could things have gotten so bad that Neal himself has to come out and tell everyone to get along? Remember why we're all here. It's not about who's better, or who's right and who's wrong. We're all sim-sailors, or in a lot of times real sailors, who enjoy the friendships we've found here. Let's not throw all of that away.

I would not have been able to make it through SH3 and now five patches of SH4 without the help of you guys. I'm not going to mention any mods or names specifically as not to offend someone, just know ALL of you have my greatest respect and admiration, keep up the great work!

[buddha95]

Its like I always said. "Some folks are alive only because its against the law to kill 'em."

[Fincuan]

Its like I always said. "Some folks are alive only because its against the law to kill 'em."

Uhmm.. yeah? If I understood that correctly then congratulations, that's among the Top Ten tasteless comments I've ever seen in Subsim.

[Suicide Charlie]

Oh jeez...

Relax guys. Keep in mind that we have a very diverse and rich community here. We're not all from the US which means that not everybody is going to understand a joke like that buddha95, which is indeed an ironic name to have posted that under anyways. just like some of those from the US might not get European jokes.

Keep your readers and fellow subsimmers in mind. It's a game and a great one at that. But, let's not get any further than that please.

To those who want to change the face of the forums, I'm still not quite sure that the atmosphere is as bad as such a drastic change would have you assume. Again, as an outsider I really think this place is quiet and pretty laid back. The misunderstandings liek the one above seem rare and bound to happen. We're all humans and we all know how to get along. So, you have scuffs here and there. Such is the nature of humans. We can't all agree right down to the point, but we all seem to get that it isn't that big a deal to lambast somebody over. We have moderators for a reason and sometimes they have to go to work. Nothing new or different than real life.

[John Channing]

Its like I always said. "Some folks are alive only because its against the law to kill 'em."

Uhmm.. yeah? If I understood that correctly then congratulations, that's among the Top Ten tasteless comments I've ever seen in Subsim.

Actually it's a variation on a line by Ernest Hemmingway to the effect that there is nothing wrong with the Human Race that a 10 day Open Season with no Bag Limit wouldn't cure.


I've always kinda felt ol' Ernie may have been on to something...

JCC

[John Channing]

All I can say is,
The Ugly is gonna start soon.


No it won't.

People will be mature, calm and reasoned in both their positions and their responses to other people's positions.

If they are not initially so, then there are tools at our disposal to see that they become so quickly.

JCC

[Jimbuna]

All I can say is,
The Ugly is gonna start soon.


No it won't.

People will be mature, calm and reasoned in both their positions and their responses to other people's positions.

If they are not initially so, then there are tools at our disposal to see that they become so quickly.

JCC

Sounds a little like the 'Glorious 12th'

http://imgcash2.imageshack.us/img265/3228/turkeyseasonzi5.gif

[aanker]

Respect your peers, we are (basically) sub simmers.

in difference there is strenght, but to attack just for the sake of attacking or to just create tension is wrong.

we have representatives of many countries, I dont know if there ever was a poll, but in the months I have been here, readyng and commenting, sometimes laughing, sometimes offering advice and finding old friends I have grown.

lets keep it that way, if you offend with the intention of offending, not just presenting a difference of opinnion your days here may be numbered. I dont like censorship but this is a community and it must have rules of behavior

those are my two colones worht of oppinion,
I'm with you Carlos....... lol

Two Atlantic Theatre type Modders: "Carotio" & "REF" - (probably more than two if others with other mods are included) brought me TWO of my favorite mods; Truk & the Panama Canal for the SH4 Pacific Theatre.

I signed one of these last April:
"We the Undersigned"
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=135364

When people work together for the common good ... see what can happen:

Happy Hunting!

Art

[Ducimus]

I think everyone will have one or two items that they believe causes division. I know I do. Maybe it's time to open that can of worms and clean it up. List your two items. Be matter of fact.


Reason number 1, and this is speaking strictly of my own opinion.

Metaphorically speaking, everyone has their favorite swimming pool. What they do with or in that pool varies. Some like working and improving the swimming pool, some just like lounging around in an inflatable raft, others like the high dive, some like to belly flop, or do cannon balls, but everyone has their favorite pool.

One thing you don't do, is throw dirt clogs in it, or toss laundery detergent into it, or toss a dead animal into it, and you don't urinate in it. But if you absotelutly had to, you most certainly don't let anyone see you do it. Conversely, if you saw someone throwing dirt clogs, or pissing in your pool, any normal human being would say something, ranging from 'HEY YOU!" to simply giving a dirty look. Seriously, if your favorite pool was at the local gym, and you saw someone suddenly drop trousers and let go while your doing the backstroke, your going to be upset.

Moral of the story, don't piss in peoples swimming pools.

Reason number 2: And this is NOT speaking just for myself. This was hashed out by a group of 7 people not including myself as to what the core problems are. Reason number 2, is the 50 gallon can of worms i was refering to.

The description is : unfair and rapacious practices

The long answer, will follow this post as its own post in petition form. This petition has gone through two revisions and was approved by 7 members of this community, not including myself. Since my big mouth volunteered me, i have the dubious honor of posting it.

To any community members, if you read this petitioin and agree with it, all you have to do is reply with:

/signed.

No other commentary is neccessary if you agree, although if you feel compelled to comment further, i certaintly cant stop you.

[Ducimus]

Petition against unfair and rapacious practices


We the undersigned agree that:


1. This community defines itself as an open and collaborative community.


a.) Knowledge in the making and creating of mods should be freely shared amongst all.

b.) Tools and applications for creating of mods should be freely shared amongst all.

c.) Acknowledge and accept that all modders have their own end goals and visions, and while we may or may not share their vision, we agree we can all work together to solve common problems in order to achieve our individual goals.

d.) Rapacious behavior is counterproductive to the community and the betterment of the game.

e.) Being a part of this community means to give as well as to take.

f.) When things are developed openly, we all know who to credit.

g.) While crediting original authors should always be part and parcel of publishing mods, nobody should ever feel the need to "reinvent the wheel".



2. The stated goal of this Silent Hunter modification community, is to advance the state of the art of the game Silent Hunter 4 and/or its U-boat add on published by Ubisoft, Inc. for the mutual enjoyment of the Silent Hunter gaming community. Changes to the Silent Hunter series of games by modders in general shall always be made without regard for commercial compensation at any time, either now or in the future.



3. Our primary grievance is NOT about U-boats, but practices which are both unfair and detrimental to this community's well being.




4. We find the following practices unacceptable by anyone who wishes to be part of this community:

a.) Engaging in a rapacious manner against other mods or modders in any way, shape, form, or degree.

b.) Engaging in oneupmanship against any mod and/or its author(s) for any reason.

c.) Withholding of knowledge in any way, shape, form, or degree for the purpose of oneupmanship.

d.) Withholding tools and applications in any way, shape, form or degree for the purpose of oneupmanship.

e.) Modding in hidden forums that exclude the rest of the community.

f.) Taking from the community (in any capacity), while giving nothing, or very little in return. This would be the case if a modder or group of modders were to reverse engineer and use parts of others' mods without permission while vigorously defending their own mod from similar practices by others.

g.) Excessive obsession with "intellectual rights" to such a degree that it impedes the stated goal of the community.



5. We find these practices are

a.) Conducive to thievery, or accusations thereof.

b.) Threatening to the peace of this established community and all works published within this community.

c.) Unfair to the community and counterintuitive to the public good.

d.) Unfair to the community and counterintuitive to the betterment of the game.

e.) An attempt at control of development and/or publishing of mods for the purpose of oneupmanship.

f.) Promoting suspicion, distrust, and animosity amongst community members in general.

g.) Creating a hostile and toxic environment that stifles creativity and causes conflict.



6.) We resolve that

a.) it is acknowledged these practices are a result of the unique community conditions that developed in the SH3 modding community, and at the time may have felt necessary.

b.) These practices have no place here in Sh4 and the unique community that has developed here.

c.) within this community, there has not, is not, and will not, be another "mod war", in any capacity. Any behavior that promotes another mod war should not be tolerated.

d.) If any person or persons wish to become accepted and trusted members of this community, should disengage in all of the practices listed in clause 4 and act as members of this community as listed in clause 1 and 2.

[LukeFF]

/signed

[lurker_hlb3]

/signed

[Digital_Trucker]

/signed

[Ducimus]

/signed (as if i really needed to :roll: )

[CaptainHunter]

signed.

[Wilcke]

signed.

[Nuc]

/signed

[cgjimeneza]

/ signed

I agree...

we work, add, comment, or whatever in order to better the game, for the sake of a better game for EVERYONES enjoyment.

We seek no reward, a pat in the back is ok, if you like it, great, if this doesn t suit your fancy ok... but don`t attack the creator based on your like or dislike of his work, any mod regardless of function took time, care and creativity, give recognition to the modder, improve if you find a way, share what you found if asked, but respect the one who tough "... mmm thats an Idea..."

my two colones

[Syxx_Killer]

/signed

[aanker]

/signed

Happy Hunting!

Art

[rodan54]

/signed

It's great having a community here that has really done its best to adhere to those principles. I know it has sure helped me learn a whole lot about modding in the last year. It'll be great if we can keep that open community spirit going. :)

[JREX53]

/signed

[Observer]

/signed

[kylesplanet]

/signed

[W4chund]

/signed

[RFB Team]

/signed

[De@dMe@t]

/signed

:) lo guys been a while.

[Onkel Neal]

Ok, so this petition ensures that you will not post derogatory images in reference to another mod group? Run down other modders? Engage in hysterics, name-calling, and other forms of ridicule and verbal abuse?

[Ducimus]

Everything that can be classified as "drama" that has occured on the forums, can be traced back to two things:

1. Previously mentioned metaphor of urination in peoples favorite swimming pools.

This is a problem that involves everyone in the community, modder, or not. Everyone's guilty of this, and it's a vicious cycle that has been a long time in existance. I personnally trace its origins to before Sh4 was even released, but at this point in time, it doesn't matter how it started, only that it stops. This is something everyone can help with.


2. The established community in SH4 feels threatened by what has been defined as "Unfair and rapacious practices" being brought into this community from the SH3 modding community. This is why vitriol crops up (much of it said in private, and not just by me). When drafting up this petition, for those involved, it was much more akin to an examination of ourselves and why we are so unhappy. Obviously this is a complex issue, and extremely hard to get at the root causes, without resorting to finger pointing or accusations. What the primary aim of the petition is; to examine and identify the core causes of disgruntlement within this community, in the most non accusatory manner possible, and to establish the framework on how we define ourselves as a community for the present and future, so that we may finally be able to move forward.

[danlisa]

Ok, so this petition ensures that you will not post derogatory images in reference to another mod group? Run down other modders? Engage in hysterics, name-calling, and other forms of ridicule and verbal abuse?
Well, a small part of it but I think that you were alluding to that.:hmm:

What it actually says, in basic terms, is "If you want to be part of the SH4 community, we want to play with your toys" and of course "Anything you know, we want to know". LMAO

Personally, I admire the people that have already signed this 'Petition/Contract' but I have yet to see anyone who has a large vested interest in this matter actually discuss this for what it is.

@ Neal

Personally, I can't believe that you will even consider the validity of this contract when lines such as:
d.) If any person or persons wish to become accepted and trusted members of this community, should disengage in all of the practices listed in clause 4 and act as members of this community as listed in clause 1 and 2. are present. Just who do the co-writers of this think they are and how have they become judge & jury over your forum?

Edit:
2. The established community in SH4 feels threatened by what has been defined as "Unfair and rapacious practices" being brought into this community from the SH3 modding community. This is why vitriol crops up (much of it said in private, and not just by me). When drafting up this petition, for those involved, it was much more akin to an examination of ourselves and why we are so unhappy.
Sorry but I don't see any threads or posts stating that the SH4 community feel threatened but the slow ingress of SH3 modders & players.

Just who is this community you speak of? Please name the co-writers of this contract as I suspect they make up a minority of the SH4 forum and infact are parts of the same modding team, which of course means that a modding war is already in effect.

[399nkov]

/signed

[Mikhayl]

Not signed, and on my very own behalf if it needed to be precised.

[Ducimus]

Well, judging by Dansila's response, who is in effect speaking as a representative of GWX with its own style of "ethics", which has been trying to barge its way into, and force its unwanted behavior into THIS community, it appears that:

a.) They plan on, and/or will continue to take from this community without the slightest iota of consideration for others.

b.) they have no intention to stop the behavior developed in the SH3 modding community that many find unacceptable,. (And yes, many, given enough time a lengthy list of names could be drawn that find the defined behavior unacceptable.)


Now when i say THIS community, i speak of the ESTABLISHED COMMUNITY that has been here, long before the Uboat expansion was released and folks like Dansila or his compatriots were drawn into this forum. Remember, you CAME TO THIS forum. Not the other way around. And its fair to say that because before the uboat expansion's release, this forum and the Sh3 forum, may as well have been on different planets.

This forum is NOT the SH3 modding forum, it is not the same culture, it does not have the same history, nor should this forum suffer from the history and ill effects of past drama in the SH3 modding forum simply because a group of modders has this incessant need to be "number 1" at the cost of everyone and everything that this community has to offer.

In essence, what was being asked as of the posted petition, was kindly check your excess baggage at the door, make a fresh start, and lets all get on the same page in the spirit of cooperation for the betterment of the game - but apparently that isn't wanted, and that's a shame.

It's a shame because it only encourages others to work in "black out" conditions as well, because nobody wants to be USED by people who pick apart their work looking for ideas or concepts, while offering nothing in return. Should this occur, this total blackout of modding and open and free thinking on how to improve the game, its a shame because then EVERYONE suffers, and the community, in any capacity, ceases to exist.

Instead we'll have two groups of people, continually at each others throats, modding in secret on hidden forums outside of subsim, accusing each other of theft, with a never ending cycle of drama, just like the SH3 modding forum. I guess thats just how some folks like it, i however, am not one of them, in fact I'm rather tired of it. You know leaving the Sh3 modding forum behind me and getting involved in new and better forum community here in SH4 was like a breath of fresh air. We never argued here, we never bickered, we all shared what we knew, we made our mods, and everyone was happy. My how times have changed.

[Carotio]

/signed

Can't we all just be friends?
Forget about past issues, it doesn't do anyone any good.

Modders should just share their knowledge, ideas, mods and/or tools with the rest of the community without fear. The community will soon enough ackknowledge the origin, the creativity and skills, when shared in public from the beginning.

Besides, anyone should accept the opponent theater, since SH4 now, with 1.5, includes both. It's just a game. Personally, I play both just like I play other games.

[Mikhayl]

I'm tired of childish forum games :shifty:
I'm tired of people saying "everybody should do that and be this". Mind your own bloody business and let me do whatever I want the way I want, period.
It's a damn forum about a damn game, so just be nice and respectful and mind your business.
I'm tired of insulting posts from people I don't know, or even people I helped.

[danlisa]

Well, judging by Danlisa's response, who is in effect speaking as a representative of GWX with its own style of "ethics", which has been trying to barge its way into, and force its unwanted behavior into THIS community, it appears that:
Stop promoting your agenda and grow up. You (and the 7 'others') are hiding behind this contract saying it's time to 'bury the hatchet', so to speak, and you are still closed to the concept that people can speak their own mind regardless of a sig that's worn. I do not speak for the team, they are all big enough & ugly enough to voice their own concerns. My responses are my own.

You can't objectively argue that this contract is a good thing when you're still hung up on your own issues.

You started this on the premise that it has nothing to do with GWX but yet again, you have proven yourself bitter by directly bringing GWX into this discussion yourself. No one else did, so why did you?

The bottom line here is that you have set out draconian rules, with no public debate or discussion and you will expect people to agree & abide. LOL, there were many regimes like that & none have succeeded.

Not signed, never will. So long as it was crafted in secret with no public input, this contract is of no benefit to the community as a whole but rather a select few.

[DrBeast]

Not signed, simply because I REFUSE to take part in forum dramas, in any shape or form. I've had enough of that in the Sims 2 community, enough to make me HATE that game, enough to last me a lifetime.

Also not signed because I've never ventured into the SH3 forum and therefore don't have an Mk I Eyeball experience of what's going on in there. As the saying goes, there are 3 sides to every story.

However, I fully agree with the composers of that petition in one thing: modding should be free-for-all and shared among EVERYONE, not a secret experiment conducted in a lab in Vault 13 (when will Fallout 3 be released, damnit?!). Being a researcher, I can tell you that free-flow of information is priceless; it's what's allowed science to grow in leaps and bounds. Withholding information stymies growth, and personally I find such clandestine tactics despicable.

So far, I've felt it was an honor and a privilege to be part of the SH4 community. I haven't played the game in months, but I still check in every day and make a comment or two. I love the athmosphere of this place, the camaraderie is simply astonishing, and I've yet to see another forum where people share information so freely, no strings attached. I'd hate to see that atmosphere ruined; we must all do our part in making sure that doesn't happen.

[Carotio]

this contract is of no benefit to the community as a whole but rather a select few.

Sorry for my sarcasm, but I can't help it.
So this was a contract created and agreed by all? Or just agreed by a few to enforce on anybody else, for the benefit of a select few!?
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=115983

@Neal
I'm sorry, but I fear this discussion will never end, as we are many people with all our different opinions, and we can discuss this matter from now and till the end of the world, or at least till ubi gives us SH5, and you'll have to create a SH5 mod workshop. But then it will be SH4 vs. SH5 etc etc :shifty:

[danlisa]

this contract is of no benefit to the community as a whole but rather a select few.
Sorry for my sarcasm, but I can't help it.
So this was a contract created and agreed by all? Or just agreed by a few to enforce on anybody else, for the benefit of a select few!?
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=115983

Your point would be a good one if you were correct.

That thread was the result of an open discussion on the SH3 forum where everyone could put forward points and discuss the issues raised. It was a community reached decision. Anyone could have taken part.

This contract concocted by Ducimus & Co. was done in secret with no open discussion.

The difference? One was democratic the other is dictatorship.

[John Channing]

I think the problem with this discussion is that the "petition" (it's not a contract, or even an agreement) far over-reaches what we intend to accomplish here.

Whether people keep their mods or modding tools to themselves is none of our business... that is a personal decision that every member must come to themselves. Subsim.com does not have any type of authority to try to enforce that type of decision, and would be foolish to even try.
What we are going to stop is the childish bickering, finger pointing, claim and counter claim nonsense that is taking place between several participants. It is a falsehood to say that it is between the two communities, because it is not. It is a small number of very vocal, very aggressive individuals who have axes to grind that are almost as large as their egos.

Make no mistake... it has been already decided that this will end. The only decision that these individuals have left to them is do they end it of their own volition, or do they leave us to impose a solution that they will not like.

So how do you recognize if you are one of those individuals? Well... one way would be that if at any time you were reading this thread you felt the urge to jump in to counter-claim something someone said... you are probably part of the problem. Congratulations, the first step on the road to recovery is admitting you have a problem.

Again... it's not about tools, or ethics, it's about the choices you make and the behavior you display.


JCC

[HunterICX]

@JCC: Well spoken:up:

HunterICX

[Alex]

Read, and not signed. Quite disappointed by the behaviour of some members of the so called ESTABLISHED community, but that's just me.

@ Carotio : Not trying to be a smart a$$... But we all subsim members, as a friendly community, have to put an end to this matter at all costs. That's why it's being discussed actually.
Now that the subject has been put on the table once again, we're certainly not going to withdraw this time.
Let's just keep our fingers crossed that the end of this discussion is close. :huh:

[danlisa]

Whether people keep their mods or modding tools to themselves is none of our business... that is a personal decision that every member must come to themselves. Subsim.com does not have any type of authority to try to enforce that type of decision, and would be foolish to even try.
Agreed. I hope that requirement/suggestion will be stricken from the petition.

What we are going to stop is the childish bickering, finger pointing, claim and counter claim nonsense that is taking place between several participants. It is a falsehood to say that it is between the two communities, because it is not. It is a small number of very vocal, very aggressive individuals who have axes to grind that are almost as large as their egos.
A good point and an admirable cause. Luckily enough your last sentence is generalised enough not to cause offense to anyone. Although, calling people aggressive is an aggressive stance in itself.

So how do you recognize if you are one of those individuals? Well... one way would be that if at any time you were reading this thread you felt the urge to jump in to counter-claim something someone said... you are probably part of the problem. Congratulations, the first step on the road to recovery is admitting you have a problem.
I can't agree with you here. It's a forum, where back & forth discussion and point making is life. Without open discussion things stagnate and resolutions will never be reached.

I have countered your post, as I felt it needed it and now find myself offended by your last condescending sentence. Is this the stance of Subsim.com or an opinion of JCC?

[Ducimus]

I think a harsh truth is too many people are set in their ways, and have no intention to change or make concessions for anyone. I may as well include myself in that, in the intrests of being fair. (I am not above self criticism). I also know there are a number of people with the same concerns as I. I know this because over the course of months, various people have used me as their venting post since my public position was well known. Few are willing to speak out on public because they dont want to end up on the hit list for the next forum dog pilling campaign, or they feel drama that would ensue simply isn't worth the trouble.

It's my prediction, that what will eventually transpire here, will be a near exact replication of what transpired in the SH3 modding forum , with end results that will be nearly identical. A forum dominated by one group of modders who i need not name, who take what they want, keep knowledge tucked away so no competitors arise to challenge their dominance, and the squashing or bullying of anyone who speaks out against them. Maybe not today, tommrrow, or even a few months, or year from now, but eventually it will, and the end result will be the same. History does has a tendency to repeat itself.

With that thought, i have no further desire to involve myself with this any longer. Ive seen this all before, and i have no desire to go through this again. My only regret, and it is a deep regret, that in the past I involved myself with the wrong people and voluntarily helped along what transpired there, as it will unfortunatly transpire here now as well. It is that deep regret, that motivated me to try and stop that situation from developing here, but deep down, i knew i couldn't, and i knew this situation was unavoidable, but i had to try none the less. It all truly is a pity, and to the modders who will have to endure what will eventually come, i truly do emphasize with you.

C'est la vie

[Rockin Robbins]

/signed

[Penelope_Grey]

Hi Neal, in light of your bring two issues post, I decided to go away and have a real good think before I posted. So here goes...


For what its worth, I have every intention of personally cooperating and will gladly behave myself here like I do on the SH3 section. I actually enjoy a game of SH4 but I have felt due to my affiliation that my preseince in SH4 was not welcome by some people, even regarded with suspicion. Which is fine... I can understand how that would happen.

As far as counter-claims go, well, let me just remind the moderators here that all individuals have a right to defend themselves. If somebody makes a claim about me and its false, and no moderator defends me, you can bet your life I will defend myself. There is action and re-action.

Moderators like Channing there, and AVG, need to look at the action as much as you do the reaction. The reaction occurs because you don't handle the actions... you (The moderators.) want to blame others for things getting out of hand? ok... but the phrase passing the buck comes to mind. You lot are involved in this too.

That brings me to the end of my first grievance, moderators here need to do their job properly and stop the baiting and taunting when it starts. If they can't do it, quit. Simple. I've never baited in this forum or intentionally started a fight... I have fought my corner though when I have seen some of the outrageous lies and vicious gossip against myself and or friends... I make no bones about that. I'm no saint, never will be... What I hope so see is the Moderators here will deal with the worm on the hook as well as they do the fish it catches.


Second grievance.

Many of the entrenched individuals of the SH4 section are quick to state in round about ways that this is their territory and criticise the way things are done on the SH3 section, yet, they sit here and say "we want it done this way in our forum" while in the same breath saying that this is a "free community" where you can do things yourself as you like.

Clearly you can't though, as of that contract. And yes, it is a contract. I've been a secretary long enough and typed up enough of them to know what a contract reads like.

Its a good idea for those that have read it, agree with it, and understand it. I suppose in the main my second grievance is the double standards that take place round here. I also feel that U-Boat presence in the SH4 sections is by some individuals not wanted or desired which is a root cause of a lot of problems.
a la
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=894657&postcount=69

End transmission.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Will hold my comments until after the 4th of July (today)... and until after any Independance Day related hangover has cleared.

[Rockin Robbins]

I'm tired of childish forum games :shifty:
I'm tired of people saying "everybody should do that and be this". Mind your own bloody business and let me do whatever I want the way I want, period.
It's a damn forum about a damn game, so just be nice and respectful and mind your business.
I'm tired of insulting posts from people I don't know, or even people I helped.
Mikhayl! You're objecting when you have performed each and every part of the petition you protest. You have come into the SH4 modding community. You have determined how we operate here. You have become an active, contributing, positive member according to every part of the petition.

And you don't sign the petition and protest it! Where's the sense there? I personally don't care whether you sign or not. You're a shining example of what behavior according to the petition would contribute to this community. You have helped everybody cheerfully and made yourself a great asset here. That's a signature in my book! Behavior is more important than a signature. You're already there. Thank you for being here.

Xantrokoles: same thing! Support would be nice, but his behavior is exactly what the petition is asking for. Here is another guy from the SH3 modding world who jumped right in here and just flat out contributed and helped everybody he found. There are plenty of others, and I apologize that I don't name you all.

The repetition of the word "should" is a statement of a goal. The use of "will" is what some posters' negative comments are directed toward. However, as is usual when people have no valid argument against what is, they erect a straw man gross distortion of the truth and knock it down for everyone's entertainment. Goals often exceed what is possible to attain all the time. That in no way invalidates the goal itself.

Who thinks passing a law against murder prevents murders? Well, people still murder, so the law is lousy and we need to get rid of it? Come on folks! THINK. REASON. And think carefully who are the messengers of disapproval and why they use the tactics they do, even here.

The petition isn't perfect. But I signed it because a good petition today beats a perfect petition never issued. It's a statement of goals and a decent statement of the culture of the SH4 modding community, which existed before the culture clash with a subset of the SH3 modding community, another culture. If we were in their community, we would expect to conform to their conventions. This is our community. We are not in charge. But we have established this culture and will continue it, here or elsewhere.

@Neal: precisely so! Comments, such as Stop promoting your agenda and grow up.The bottom line here is that you have set out draconian rules should (a word not draconian, but suggesting a goal of reasonable civility) be considered out of line. Also, characterizing a list of shoulds and should nots as "draconian rules" has no basis in logic or fact, just trolling by mischaracterization, precisely part of the problem the petition tries to address. It is a statement of goals to be participated in voluntarily, not rules to be imposed without mercy.

[Carotio]

this contract is of no benefit to the community as a whole but rather a select few.
Sorry for my sarcasm, but I can't help it.
So this was a contract created and agreed by all? Or just agreed by a few to enforce on anybody else, for the benefit of a select few!?
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=115983

Your point would be a good one if you were correct.

That thread was the result of an open discussion on the SH3 forum where everyone could put forward points and discuss the issues raised. It was a community reached decision. Anyone could have taken part.

This contract concocted by Ducimus & Co. was done in secret with no open discussion.

The difference? One was democratic the other is dictatorship.

Well, I did take part in the SH3 version, and though I fully agreed on the credits part, I totally disagreed on the permission part. But for that I, and others with the same opinion, were totally disregarded, and the decision was made over our heads, which made some feel like it was a dictatorship and not democratic. But we most likely disagree on how it was achieved back then.

Then this issue occurs in SH4 forum, where you disagree. Do you now have a feeling of how I and others felt, when the SH3 decision was made? You feel it like a dictatorship today. Though, some may laugh their @$$ off about it, I don't like this situation anymore than you do.

So how to get out of this vortex?

We have to have something that 90-100% of the users can agree on as RULES.
We can have recommended BEHAVIOUR, which a majority of 51% agree on.

Rules are rules and must be obeyed by all.
Behaviour is different. That's based on opinion. T.i. no need to headhunt anyone who have another opinion.

I only see one solution to get out of this:

the moderator team must pick out several single issues and let the users vote AYE or NO to each part of Ducimus suggestion AND any of yours/ours/mine/the girl next door and her dog. If an issue can muster 90-100%, then it's a rule, if not then it's only a recommendation.

As a last remark. Since a forum is a living species in some sort, so must the rules/recommendations be. Anything can/should be subject to change, if a majority feels like it, at any time: today, next week, next year...

[Mikhayl]

RR, simply put, I don't give a damn.
The only rule this forum needs is the following : be respectful and courteous in all occasion and mind your business, period.

[Rockin Robbins]

RR, simply put, I don't give a damn.
The only rule this forum needs is the following : be respectful and courteous in all occasion and mind your business, period.
No, that is the only rule that SHOULD be necessary.:up::rotfl:

Keep doing what you do. You're a great guy.

[Mikhayl]

See that's the point, I do what I do because I want to, I don't need any "rules". On the other hand I don't care if people do things my way or another, and I surely wouldn't want to even pretend imposing "rules" upon others.
If there were rules against my way of doing things, would I follow them ? You bet I wouldn't. And who would be able to force me to ? You guessed it, nobody. So would these rules be helpful for the community ? No. Only result is that people who posted little on their knowledge would now post strictly nothing. Hardly helpful is it ?
So let people do whatever they want the way they want, and write whatever they want in the "legal" part of their mod's readme as it's the case since years, ranging from "you can make profit with my mod, no need to credit me" to "you can't even play that mod without contacting my lawyer first", and let the users decide if they like it or not, and if they want to play it or not.
I'll stress on that, the biggest problem I've had on this forum is not about people doing things in whatever way, it's about people being disrespectful & insulting just because you don't share their vision.

[AVGWarhawk]

Penelope

Moderators like Channing there, and AVG, need to look at the action as much as you do the reaction. The reaction occurs because you don't handle the actions... you (The moderators.) want to blame others for things getting out of hand? ok... but the phrase passing the buck comes to mind. You lot are involved in this too.


We are involved to the extent that we wish the arguing to stop. If you would prefer to have us just slap on the brig avatar for 30 days for all involved, we can accomodate. No problem. This avenue has been discussed at length. We would much prefer everyone getting along. Some other avenues have been discussed and Neal is attempting to find a common ground and resolution to the conflicts that will statisfy all. Suggestions are welcome and so is your resolution in your post to 'cooperate and behave'.


In short, we as moderators and the site owner (Neal) have been discussing two resolutions for our problem at hand. They are as follows:

1) Cease and desist any attempt to calm a riot by a moderator in any particular thread by brig time up to 30 days. No posting by the moderator, close thread and ban. All involved, no disecting of the thread Seems kind of harsh when in all reality, we are all adults here and resorting to these measure is not the way to go.


2) A separate SH4 Uboat forum for modding.
a. Anyone found to be jumping the wall on a commando raid is to refer to resolution 1.


So, as JC stated, if you have come to this thread and felt the urge to jump right in with a counter claims, stop, get some coffee, tea, and think of post with some answers and resolutions. Neal and the moderators are asking for answers and resolutions from you, the member.

The podium is open for suggestions and resolutions. Thus far, my vote is for a separate forum concerning the uboats and the fleets. Lets face it, some members just like one or the other. For some reason, it does not mix well in the same pot. I believe these members should be able to enjoy the theater of their choice without having to dig through threads that do not interest them. I'm also casting a vote for the ban function and immediately deploying the ban.

Penelope, any suggestions on how to handle the current situation?

[Onkel Neal]

I think the problem with this discussion is that the "petition" (it's not a contract, or even an agreement) far over-reaches what we intend to accomplish here.

Whether people keep their mods or modding tools to themselves is none of our business... that is a personal decision that every member must come to themselves. Subsim.com does not have any type of authority to try to enforce that type of decision, and would be foolish to even try.
What we are going to stop is the childish bickering, finger pointing, claim and counter claim nonsense that is taking place between several participants. It is a falsehood to say that it is between the two communities, because it is not. It is a small number of very vocal, very aggressive individuals who have axes to grind that are almost as large as their egos.

Again... it's not about tools, or ethics, it's about the choices you make and the behavior you display.
JCC


That pretty much sums it up for me as well.

Ducimus, you may have an honest perception of who committed the first slight or wrong in this case, and it may or may not be accurate, I don't know. I certainly remember these same issues much farther back than SH3--there have been episodes between competing mod groups since SH2. But the main overlying goal here is to get everyone to step up and be responsible for their own actions in public. You can have 100 people sign your petition, there are 10,000 people who enjoy the game and do not care for the attacks, name-calling, baiting, overwrought counterattacks, drama, and hysterics that people display in public.

Everything that can be classified as "drama" that has occured on the forums, can be traced back to two things:
1. Previously mentioned metaphor of urination in peoples favorite swimming pools.

This is a problem that involves everyone in the community, modder, or not. Everyone's guilty of this, and it's a vicious cycle that has been a long time in existance. I personnally trace its origins to before Sh4 was even released, but at this point in time, it doesn't matter how it started, only that it stops. This is something everyone can help with.

2. The established community in SH4 feels threatened by what has been defined as "Unfair and rapacious practices" being brought into this community from the SH3 modding community. This is why vitriol crops up (much of it said in private, and not just by me). When drafting up this petition, for those involved, it was much more akin to an examination of ourselves and why we are so unhappy.

Previously mentioned metaphor of urination in peoples favorite swimming pools: I have no idea what that means. What swimming pool? The SH4 Mods forum? Who owns this swimming pool? Does this mean that people who mod SH3, including GW, cannot mod SH4 or join in the discussion in this forum? Why? Are they going to stop others from working on their own project? Is this a "hog the limelight" issue?

Obviously this is a complex issue, and extremely hard to get at the root causes, without resorting to finger pointing or accusations. What the primary aim of the petition is; to examine and identify the core causes of disgruntlement within this community, in the most non accusatory manner possible, and to establish the framework on how we define ourselves as a community for the present and future, so that we may finally be able to move forward.[/

Fair enough. Why are you unhappy about SH3 modders joining in the SH4 mods discussion? The way I see it (and this is my perception, right or wrong), the biggest bone of contention is between some non-GW modders and GW. In the past GW has probably made mistakes in how they dealt with criticism and there was some competition that heated up between them and NYGM team. I do not believe any GW member will deny that. Are there some people here who are pathologically jealous of GW's exuberance, success, and acclaim? Well, duh! Up through the present day it appears there are a handful of people who look for a chance to take a shot at GW, and that's something I've had to address with a few people several times--subtle verbal attacks, outright abusive name-calling, and posting an image that conveys an insult, and GW cannot restrain from responding. That's the problem. Each side thinks they can resolve the problem by throwing down the ultimate verbal hammer, but it never works. Things just keep getting worse. But the main point is: MOST people here do not want to take sides, they just want to enjoy the games and mods and discussions.

...it doesn't matter how it started, only that it stops. This is something everyone can help with.

I agree. You, me, Kpt Lehmann and GW, the hundreds of easy going, friendly SH-series players, all want it to stop. In regards to your petition, why not? It appears to be an honest reach to compromise with the community. As long as you intend to honor it, fine, I can even see GW signing it. Of course, that gives them the right to form a petition of their own and obligate you to sign it. As long as these moves are made in the spirit of honesty, reconciliation, and trust, I support them.

Neal
* To all: I will be out of touch until Monday July 7. Please keep the discussion civil, practice your diplomacy, don't be selfish with your expectations and show the guts to be honest and considerate. A lot of communities experience these kind of issues, most splinter and explode pathetically. We, Subsim, are better than that. This is your online legacy.

[Rockin Robbins]

In short, we as moderators and the site owner (Neal) have been discussing two resolutions for our problem at hand. They are as follows:

1) Cease and desist any attempt to calm a riot by a moderator in any particular thread by brig time up to 30 days. No posting by the moderator, close thread and ban. All involved, no disecting of the thread Seems kind of harsh when in all reality, we are all adults here and resorting to these measure is not the way to go.


2) A separate SH4 Uboat forum for modding.
a. Anyone found to be jumping the wall on a commando raid is to refer to resolution 1.



In any event, the petition should (there's that darn word again!:rotfl:) be amended to say that nothing in the petition is intended to restrict or control any actions or rights of the owner and moderators of Subsim. It is strictly a statement of goals by the participating modders to produce a healthy, collaborative, friendly modding community working not for personal glory or profit, but the betterment of the Silent Hunter franchise and the greater enjoyment of its players.

[Onkel Neal]

In any event, the petition should (there's that darn word again!:rotfl:) be amended to say that nothing in the petition is intended to restrict or control any actions or rights of the owner and moderators of Subsim. It is strictly a statement of goals by the participating modders to produce a healthy, collaborative, friendly modding community working not for personal glory or profit, but the betterment of the Silent Hunter franchise and the greater enjoyment of its players.

Point taken, and goals that appear to be worthy of our efforts. :up:

[Digital_Trucker]

Sadly, the petition (which, by the way, no one is "obliged" to sign) shoudln't even be necessary. But it (or something like it) is necessary. If common sense and decency are not practiced by members of the community, there need to be some guidelines as to the practices that aren't tolerated and the ramifications of said practices, period.


Is the petition flawed? Of course it is, it was drawn up by human beings, who are inherently flawed. If perfection was the goal, it would never be finished. Its intention, however, was not flawed. Its intention was to attempt to foster an atmosphere of cooperation and conducive to progress, which, oddly enough, was the atmosphere that existed before said "attitudes" arrival.

When I came to the SH4 community, I was completely surprised by the maturity and openness of the SH4 community. There was an air of cooperation around here that isn't seen, normally, in a group this size. Everyone worked together to get the "job" done. And, to a certain extent, that atmosphere has continued. Personally, I'd like to see it continue unabated, but there are certain folks with attitudes (notice the use of the word attitudes, not affiliations) that disrupt that atmosphere (and not for the better).

I have no axe to grind with any group in this community. My axe is for the individuals whose attitudes and egos screw up a good thing. Sign the petition, don't sign the petition, I don't care either way. I signed, not just because I was one of "the 7", but because I agree with its principles. As far as the sharing of tools and knowledge go, it's difficult for me to imagine a reason for not sharing a tool or knowledge other than to stoke one's own ego or restrict the abiltiy of others to accomplish a task. If some one will please inform me of any other possible reasons, please enlighten me. I will tell you in advance that I won't accept "because I worked hard on it" as a reason. We all work hard on what we create and we share it.

Simply put, act like an adult and be a non-negative addition to the community or don't come here to play. Affiliation with a group should not (and was not intended) to be a prejudgement of said person. The persons actions speak for themselves.

Personally, if it matters, I think we need to have forums devoted to the theater of choice. If a person wants to participate in both, fine, but not running to one side or the other and flaming the theater or the folks devoted to it. I know the Uboat fans don't care to wade through a ton of Pacific theater stuff to get at what they want to see and I don't want to wade through a bunch of Uboat stuff to get to the stuff I'm interested in.

[Rockin Robbins]

Personally, if it matters, I think we need to have forums devoted to the theater of choice. If a person wants to participate in both, fine, but not running to one side or the other and flaming the theater or the folks devoted to it. I know the Uboat fans don't care to wade through a ton of Pacific theater stuff to get at what they want to see and I don't want to wade through a bunch of Uboat stuff to get to the stuff I'm interested in.

And thus back to my statement toward the beginning of the thread that good fences make good neighbors. They are not to restrict entry, but to make concrete and visible the boundaries between mutually respectful communities. Boundaries and their wise management are keys to all personal happiness and productivity. Wise boundaries produce freedom, not restrictions. They would also serve to make it absolutely clear who is in the wrong, where now there can be only inconclusive finger pointing.

[John Channing]

Sadly, the petition (which, by the way, no one is "obliged" to sign) shoudln't even be necessary. But it (or something like it) is necessary. If common sense and decency are not practiced by members of the community, there need to be some guidelines as to the practices that aren't tolerated and the ramifications of said practices, period.


Ahhhhh... but there is, and always has been. People either just ignore it or think it doesn't apply to them.


The Radio Room forum is not the place for flaming, spewing, or otherwise mouthing off. We do not allow posts where people are called idiots, morons, etc. We respect your freedom of speech, we ask that you respect our rules.

You are welcome to express your opinion about games and other subjects. We do not want SUBSIM Review and the Radio Room forums to degenerate into a collection of *This game sux!!!!* and other immature rants. Like something or dislike something about a game, express your thoughts in reasoned and responsible terms.

There are any number of forums which allow unbridled idiocy to reign, we want the Radio Room to be a civil, mature forum for discussions about naval and subsims, tactics, mods, playing tips, troubleshooting, and submarine topics in general.

As such, we retain the right to edit and/or delete posts we find offensive. We also have the right to ban users who contribute to poisoning the well. Just as a radio talk host has the right to decide who he airs and a newspaper editor decides whose letters he prints and whose he throws away, the moderators in the Radio Room forums have final say on rants and spews they decide should be cut.


As stated before "legislating" who gets to play with whose toys is far beyond Subsim.com's control or interest. How people act, and how they respond to other's actions is very much in our interest.

And no one should confuse the generous amount of tolerance and forbearance that has been shown up to now with they way things are going to be in the future.

JCC

[Kpt. Lehmann]

And no one should confuse the generous amount of tolerance and forbearance that has been shown up to now with they way things are going to be in the future.



Nice threat.

[AVGWarhawk]

In any event, the petition should (there's that darn word again!:rotfl:) be amended to say that nothing in the petition is intended to restrict or control any actions or rights of the owner and moderators of Subsim. It is strictly a statement of goals by the participating modders to produce a healthy, collaborative, friendly modding community working not for personal glory or profit, but the betterment of the Silent Hunter franchise and the greater enjoyment of its players.

Point taken, and goals that appear to be worthy of our efforts. :up:

This is a very worthy goal and one that with some understanding of each others goals just might come to fruition with open and meaningful discussion. If any one of us steps back and takes a good healthy look at the modding talent and imagination on this forum, what could be with sharing and assisting each other has the potential to go beyond even our wildest imagination. Everyday I'm floored by something new, improved or implemented in this game by our modders. Although competition is healthy, there are forms of competition that are not healthy. We are in a unhealthy competition at the moment. The question is what is the competiton the community is engaged in? Fame, glory, self-satisfaction, wine women and song? The competition should be, who is the first in line to help another modder overcome an issue. Who is first in line to share a new discovery so others do not struggle and maybe even perhaps improve on an original idea!!!


Here is a beautiful example of working together in a open forum. All adding a solution to a problem. A GWX developer lending a helping hand and helping improve upon it:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=138507


This is colaboration and it is good. This is a trend we would like to keep going. There should be plenty enough satifaction for helping each other. In my eyes, helping others obtain their goals in modding garners more respect from me then have the best mod available, crushing the hopes and dreams of others to mod the game, not accepting others ideas as valid or worth looking into and failure to bolstering them to follow it through to the end is a travesty in itself. Not just for the individual, but the entire community.

This is up to the members to make it work, grow and be fruitful for all.

[AVGWarhawk]

And no one should confuse the generous amount of tolerance and forbearance that has been shown up to now with they way things are going to be in the future.



Nice threat.

KL, this currently not a threat but a reality to the situation. It has come to that. However, this thread is not about possible sanction upon an individual or individuals who want to continue arguing over mods. We are looking for solutions to bring harmony between theaters. I think it is obtainable if all are willing. This is the goal. Not a continuation of hard feelings over past issues. I see from your post here you are not ready to come with a open mind over this debacle that has stewed for over two years. It has now come to boil. We need to work together to turn off the heat. Let us know when you are ready.

[John Channing]

And no one should confuse the generous amount of tolerance and forbearance that has been shown up to now with they way things are going to be in the future.



Nice threat.

You are welcome to interpret it anyway you like.

It was meant only as a statement of fact.

JCC

[bigboywooly]

:o was on page 2 last time I looked
Work gets in the way of everything

Read it - the petition that is

While I totally agree that the them and us\ATO v PTO BS has to stop there are some things I cant agree on and others which are downright accusatory to one team in particular



c.) Withholding of knowledge in any way, shape, form, or degree for the purpose of oneupmanship.

define oneupmanship ?
Sure people are going to with hold knowledge
We all do it
Especially during construction of a mod
No point releasing a mod if everybody has prior knowledge of all in it
Everybody likes surprises

Now there are some on here I have asked for help from who have willingly gave that help
And some that wouldnt p*** on me if on fire let alone answer a PM

Personally speaking I have a long way to go in learning all the SH4 files so cant really say I have any knowledge in anything
BUT
Take a look over the SH3 forum and am always willing to impart any knowledge I have
( And that goes for the bulk of GWX dev team if not all )
Now that may be after a mods release and not before as stated above but if I can help or give out any knowledge I do



d.) Withholding tools and applications in any way, shape, form or degree for the purpose of oneupmanship.

There are many people on here who write programs to aid what they are modding
Are they released ?
The bulk no - and not speaking of GWX here but many others
Sometimes a program is written but its not the best
It may do part of what you want it to but is never going to be good enough for release
Why ?
Because you dont have the time to make it perfect nor the time to spend answering questions
So why release it ?
Short answer you wont



e.) Modding in hidden forums that exclude the rest of the community.

Directed at GWX
Ummmm if a group of modders wish to have their own forum thats their business
You yourself were quite happy to be a member of a closed forum
Sometimes things are best left in private
Ideas get mooted then booted after not working properly or being unworkable
Again why keep answering questions on "how is this doing" "where has that gone"
No time for actual modding

Personally I feel that the 3 examples from the petition above are ALL aimed at GWX

Yeah I know you have history with GWX
And so do a few others
SH3 modding wars were nasty and NO ONE wants go back there
At least I hope so
I know no one from GWX does

We ( GWX ) knew we wouldnt be welcome over here and how some people perceive us
Group tactics etc - even though we wear a GWX sig doesnt mean everytime we speak its on GWX's behalf - we are all individual people that share a common interest
From day one when it was announced SH4 would be PTO the divide started
I have no interest in the PTO at all
Is that wrong ?
No
My choice
I knows what I likes
Doesnt mean to say I feel any scorn or derision towards the PTO and fleet boats or mods that are made for them
Just means out of my scope of interest

What needs to stop is the flaming\baiting and downright vindictiveness
By ALL sides
Modding is modding
Whatever theatre you play in

Live and let live

[AVGWarhawk]

BBW
What needs to stop is the flaming\baiting and downright vindictiveness
By ALL sides
Modding is modding
Whatever theatre you play in


This is what we are here to do. BTW, I agree on just about everything else you posted. Seems sensible. At any rate and in your view, would a SH4 uboat forum for modding help in keeping the interests of either theater in their respective corners, free to mod as they see fit? In doing so, would members keep from going over the wall for a drunken covert operation? I would hope it would. But again, it is up to the members to make it work.

[Digital_Trucker]

According to dictionary.com oneupsmanship is the art or practice of achieving, demonstrating, or assuming superiority in one's rivalry with a friend or opponent by obtaining privilege, status, status symbols, etc.: the one-upmanship of getting into the president's car pool.

You missed the point, BBW. Yes, there are reasons for those actions, but oneupsmanship shouldn't be one of them. Not hard to agree not to withhold information or tools just to be uncooperative. Tools and mods can be released "as is" with the stipulation of no support also. Compromises can always be made if one is willing.

[Dowly]

In doing so, would members keep from going over the wall for a drunken covert operation?

NEVEEEER!!! :rotfl:(j/k)

Oh and BTW, BigBoyW you said what I though about the Ducimus' petition. I agree with alot of what it lists, but those 3 points you listed are the ones I wont go by. We're trying to resolve a fight here, not building a prison. ;)

[bigboywooly]

According to dictionary.com oneupsmanship is the art or practice of achieving, demonstrating, or assuming superiority in one's rivalry with a friend or opponent by obtaining privilege, status, status symbols, etc.: the one-upmanship of getting into the president's car pool.

You missed the point, BBW. Yes, there are reasons for those actions, but oneupsmanship shouldn't be one of them. Not hard to agree not to withhold information or tools just to be uncooperative. Tools and mods can be released "as is" with the stipulation of no support also. Compromises can always be made if one is willing.

I have yet to see an act of oneupmanship in respect of mods
I personally see GWX as different not superior to WAC\LSH3 or any other mod out there
Possibly tools can be released unfinished
Where are they all then ?
SH4 has been out for ages and dont see hundreds of them
The one tool which has had a massive effect and will do moreso as evolves is S3D
How much time and energy has been put into that ?

I honestly have no idea why everyone thinks GWX has a massive arsenal of tools
Simply not true
Hex editing is the main tool used by Ref\Privateer and DD
They are freely available anywhere
The knowledge to use it is another matter

Yes compromises can be made
Tis true
Such as the terrain editor release

But lets not get bogged down by nitpicking
Individual points can be discussed to the cows come home
The main purpose of this is to make the forums a healthier\peaceful and pleasant place to be

I spent a lot of time at SS
Too much the wife would say
Be nice to enjoy that time
We all wish that

[bigboywooly]

BBW
What needs to stop is the flaming\baiting and downright vindictiveness
By ALL sides
Modding is modding
Whatever theatre you play in


This is what we are here to do. BTW, I agree on just about everything else you posted. Seems sensible. At any rate and in your view, would a SH4 uboat forum for modding help in keeping the interests of either theater in their respective corners, free to mod as they see fit? In doing so, would members keep from going over the wall for a drunken covert operation? I would hope it would. But again, it is up to the members to make it work.

I know some would see a seperate uboat forum as deepening the divide
I dont
A lot of what will be modded for the ATO will break the PTO
So mods are hardly compatable
Enviroment is about the only exception

Members are free to play both sides and therefore visit both forums
The only difference would be you know you are in the ATO forum so expect to see ATO specific mods and talk
And vice versa
However many forums you have there still needs to be a sense of decorum

Which is the underlying problem

Dowly plays neither SH3 nor SH4 and is always on a drunken covert mission for himself
And we put up with him ok :yep:

[HunterICX]

In doing so, would members keep from going over the wall for a drunken covert operation?

this gives a picture:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPsaYWm92yQ

:lol:

HunterICX

[Penelope_Grey]

Penelope

We are involved to the extent that we wish the arguing to stop. If you would prefer to have us just slap on the brig avatar for 30 days for all involved, we can accomodate. No problem. This avenue has been discussed at length. We would much prefer everyone getting along. Some other avenues have been discussed and Neal is attempting to find a common ground and resolution to the conflicts that will statisfy all. Suggestions are welcome and so is your resolution in your post to 'cooperate and behave'.

I will cooperate but the moderating needs to be fair and impartial... and there have been instances where I feel it has not. Laufen's thread where he informs of changing his website to include SH4 springs to mind immediately. Where were the moderators then when they (Ducimus and other fleet enthusiasts) started to get heavy with him? Its the most recent and best example of poor and one sided moderation.


In short, we as moderators and the site owner (Neal) have been discussing two resolutions for our problem at hand. They are as follows:

1) Cease and desist any attempt to calm a riot by a moderator in any particular thread by brig time up to 30 days. No posting by the moderator, close thread and ban. All involved, no disecting of the thread Seems kind of harsh when in all reality, we are all adults here and resorting to these measure is not the way to go.


2) A separate SH4 Uboat forum for modding.
a. Anyone found to be jumping the wall on a commando raid is to refer to resolution 1.

Myself and the rest of the Grey Wolves (as BBW states) would rather not have to fight the fight here, but a lot of the time we haven't had a choice due to provocation and baiting. If we say nothing in light of some outright foul accusations... then that's as good as saying "yes you are right". Lot of the time I feel pushed into a corner and tarred with a very unfair brush... the moment we speak out against it. We get a loud, "ah shuuudduuppp!!!" from certain sectors.

A seperate U-Boat modding forum sounds good for reasons outlined by BBW. It shouldn't be moderated by anybody with a fleet boat preference though.


So, as JC stated, if you have come to this thread and felt the urge to jump right in with a counter claims, stop, get some coffee, tea, and think of post with some answers and resolutions. Neal and the moderators are asking for answers and resolutions from you, the member.

You reckon I've only come for counter-claims? I've come here to raise my grievances. I feel I have done that sensibly and politely as possible.

The podium is open for suggestions and resolutions. Thus far, my vote is for a separate forum concerning the uboats and the fleets. Lets face it, some members just like one or the other. For some reason, it does not mix well in the same pot. I believe these members should be able to enjoy the theater of their choice without having to dig through threads that do not interest them. I'm also casting a vote for the ban function and immediately deploying the ban.

Penelope, any suggestions on how to handle the current situation?

Ban function? Not sure I like the sounds of that. You ask me the hiring and firing I believe should stay in the hands of Neal Stevens and nobody else.

Like I've already said, moderators need to be more on the ball, stamp out the baiting and name calling before it gets out of control. Not wait till it erupts before getting involved.

[AVGWarhawk]

BBW
What needs to stop is the flaming\baiting and downright vindictiveness
By ALL sides
Modding is modding
Whatever theatre you play in


This is what we are here to do. BTW, I agree on just about everything else you posted. Seems sensible. At any rate and in your view, would a SH4 uboat forum for modding help in keeping the interests of either theater in their respective corners, free to mod as they see fit? In doing so, would members keep from going over the wall for a drunken covert operation? I would hope it would. But again, it is up to the members to make it work.

I know some would see a seperate uboat forum as deepening the divide
I dont
A lot of what will be modded for the ATO will break the PTO
So mods are hardly compatable
Enviroment is about the only exception

Members are free to play both sides and therefore visit both forums
The only difference would be you know you are in the ATO forum so expect to see ATO specific mods and talk
And vice versa
However many forums you have there still needs to be a sense of decorum

Which is the underlying problem

Dowly plays neither SH3 nor SH4 and is always on a drunken covert mission for himself
And we put up with him ok :yep:

Very true. Working the ATO and the PTO will break both unless a modder is looking to mod both to be compatible with each other. This has been found by Lurker in RSRD/OM. He is able to make both work together. To further that notion, he makes them work with RFB and TMO. All done happily by Lurker. However, each forum can host their specific likes. If a person likes both, double install of the game. Everyone does it now so there is no big deal there. On the decorum part, this is up to the members to keep it civil. I do not see the two forums deepening the divide. I see it as organizing the mods for each theater. Disorganization is a root to trouble. However, I would hope ideas and fixes would find the way between both forums. Both working together to fix a problem that might be concerned with the ATO or the PTO. In other word, if you know something that would work great for the fleetboats but would break the uboats, let them know. Vis versa as well. A lot can be learned from both. All benefit in one form or another.

As far as Dowly, we know he conducts his Bf-109 strafing runs while under the influence. Not enjoyed really but expected from Dowly. Therefore, it is not so bad when he is in a dive from 10000 feet with cannons blazing. However, others attempt to throw flak his way and thus begins the insanity. We can only ask he does not fly when drinking. Dowly has come a long way and has become a good member at SS. I believe he is a leading member of the IL2 threads and conducts flights and such with others. One of these days I'm going to load up my IL2 discs and tune in my X52, break out my TrackIR and strafe his butt with a P-40.

[Rockin Robbins]

I have yet to see an act of oneupmanship in respect of mods
A door not wisely opened. We had a thread here where skwasjr announced a new kind of fix for propeller rotation. He did not just explain. He provided the tools to fix it. He provided a tutorial video showing how to use his tool. He explained in great detail how to make it work, and why it worked. This was a technique not available to the Subsim community before skwasjr's post. He demonstrated in great detail the intent of Ducimus' petition.

What happened? Members of a group we will not name descended upon a wonderful thread with the following observations: We did it first long ago so you haven't done anything but steal our idea. Your solution is too complicated and won't work properly. You don't understand the process and we did it better. There's no need to explain so thoroughly (it was implied that all skwasjr did was waste valuable bandwidth), it could have been done in two words and I would have understood.

This is oneupsmanship. This is just one situation where you have seen it used. This is a great illustration of how indtimidation of this kind by a pack of perpetrators can stifle future contributions, if they were supplied by a sensitive modder. Fortunately skwasjr is about as sensitive as the Rock of Gibralter and doesn't pay attention to childs' play.

Want to talk about OLC GUI and how certain people tried to squash its development? We could talk about the ship damage models in a certain prominent mod pack and where they came from and how. Naw, not necessary. You know all about them and a lot more besides. Some doors are best left closed.

Notice I stick to the facts and criticize specific issues. I have not characterized anyone or claimed they were some sensitive anatomical part. That is called argument in its best sense. Name-calling, personal attack and innuendo are not reasoned argument and are not an adequate substitute.

I don't see anything that a nice rail fence with many unlocked gates couldn't cure.

[Mikhayl]

RR : Anvart is not part of the "group we will not name".

[Jimbuna]

And no one should confuse the generous amount of tolerance and forbearance that has been shown up to now with they way things are going to be in the future.



Nice threat.

You are welcome to interpret it anyway you like.

It was meant only as a statement of fact.

JCC

Possibly or possibly not. But either way, definitely surpassed by this previous one;


The podium is open for suggestions and resolutions. Thus far, my vote is for a separate forum concerning the uboats and the fleets. Lets face it, some members just like one or the other. For some reason, it does not mix well in the same pot. I believe these members should be able to enjoy the theater of their choice without having to dig through threads that do not interest them. I'm also casting a vote for the ban function and immediately deploying the ban.


I've sat back most of the day and followed this thread with a great sense of sadness.

I believe there may well be a way out of this mess for us all....and by that I mean the entire community.

Allow me to make a few observations and comments as a means to aide myself:

First point....Read Neals first post Just a friendly reminder, play nice, no sarcastic comments to others, don't start any flame wars.

Q: Check around the threads and see who the instigator is in the vast majority of occasions. The one that enters the room, drops a derogitory or sarcastic comment or even something smelly before beating a hasty exit and watching the ensuing turmoil that unfolds.

Neal himself has already stated that Up through the present day it appears there are a handful of people who look for a chance to take a shot at GW, and that's something I've had to address with a few people several times--subtle verbal attacks, outright abusive name-calling, and posting an image that conveys an insult, and GW cannot restrain from responding

It happens, whether you agree with me or not.

What is the usual consequence ?

A moderator closes the thread down.

I find it sadly strange that they are predominantly U-boat threads in the SH4 area.

Could a conspiracy theory eminate from this ?

Who knows?

I try to adhere to my RL training and instincts and keep an open but inquisitive mind.

A possible question that usually arises from the above is....Could there be an element of bias here in favour of SH4?

Possibly, especially when you consider that those moderating in the SH3 threads all play and spend far more time in the SH4 sections.

Now don't get me wrong, I am not calling any moderators honesty or integrity into question here, but I believe there is reasonable potential for a certain element of doubt when you consider that one of your good selves is a moderator on a certain forum that is seriously anti U-boat.

A forum that has numerous posts that are objectionable and subjective and go so far in places to call Neals honesty and integrity into question.

Never have I witnessed said moderator exercise their authority over there with such speed and zeal in closing down a thread or dampening a brush fire as quickly as I have witnessed on SS.

It would appear that members of said forum can post whatever venomous trash they like with total impunity to any consequences. It's usually accompanied with encouragement and additional ridicule from others.

In fact if I'm going to be challenged shortly after posting I think it also appropriate that I point out that I and others have actually read the odd negative post against SH3 by said inividual.

A question of credibility arises here and does little more than add weight to the concerns of those currently working on GWX4.

What is desperately needed is a moderator that enjoys the confidence and trust of so many instead of the current situation, which IMHO is not tenable.

(Please observe no reference or detail attached from any of our PM's)

Mr Robbins........You come across as so plausible, affable and conciliatory in your posts here.

Think again before continuing with the hypocricy.

What gives you the right to be so dishonest to so many on SS.

I find your attitude an afront to everyones intelligence on SS.

What you post here and what you post on another couple of forums are distinctly different.

Your comments 'from the peanut gallery' are often sadly, a source of entertainment to many.

I especially liked the one when you were boasting how you had fooled everyone into searching for a link which you deliberately pointed to another site where you are actively involved in encouraging people to leave SS.

You can wriggle whichever way you want.....but be the decent human being I'm sure you are, and don't insult the intelligence of myself and so many others here.

I'm deeply saddened at some of the detail I've posted here, mainly because I hoped it wouldn't be necessary to go down this route.

The point I'm trying to make is.....we will never come to a satisfactory conclusion that is acceptable to all if we aren't prepared to be open, honest and transparent with each other from the outset.

SS and it's community is far more important than all the people from either side of this sad divide.

REMEMBER!!......NONE OF US ARE AS CLEVER AS ALL OF US!!

[Rockin Robbins]

An-who?:rotfl:I'd rather not mention names unless it is for some positive purpose.

[danlisa]

I have yet to see an act of oneupmanship in respect of mods
A door not wisely opened. We had a thread here where skwasjr announced a new kind of fix for propeller rotation. He did not just explain. He provided the tools to fix it. He provided a tutorial video showing how to use his tool. He explained in great detail how to make it work, and why it worked. This was a technique not available to the Subsim community before skwasjr's post. He demonstrated in great detail the intent of Ducimus' petition.

Well, as you opened that door.

You've used a poor example. Anvart was the first to point out that prop fix was already documented.

Then people attack Anvart, partly due to a miscommunication due to the language barrier, Privateer defends Anvart, then Ducimus posts snide comments, KL reacts, then you post at Anvart, thread locked.

So you have just demonstrated how Ducimus managed to derail yet another perfectly sound thread.

Also, you have, again, brought the GWX team into this thread when others have assured people that it's nothing to do with the history of certain members on SS.

So what is this all about then? A concerted effort to better Subsim or to gripe about the same old stuff? I'm also left wondering, now that the instigator of this petition has once again washed his hands of the thing he started and left us to revel in his wake, is there any point continuing.:hmm:

[AVGWarhawk]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk
Penelope

We are involved to the extent that we wish the arguing to stop. If you would prefer to have us just slap on the brig avatar for 30 days for all involved, we can accomodate. No problem. This avenue has been discussed at length. We would much prefer everyone getting along. Some other avenues have been discussed and Neal is attempting to find a common ground and resolution to the conflicts that will statisfy all. Suggestions are welcome and so is your resolution in your post to 'cooperate and behave'.


I will cooperate but the moderating needs to be fair and impartial... and there have been instances where I feel it has not. Laufen's thread where he informs of changing his website to include SH4 springs to mind immediately. Where were the moderators then when they (Ducimus and other fleet enthusiasts) started to get heavy with him? Its the most recent and best example of poor and one sided moderation.



Point taken. I was not aware of a thread were someone was asked to change his post to include SH4 as well. We can not cover all the threads as life precludes us from doing so. However, there is the report thread function that sends emails to all moderators. Use it because we can not see and read all. This is the only way you can alert to moderators.



Quote:
In short, we as moderators and the site owner (Neal) have been discussing two resolutions for our problem at hand. They are as follows:

1) Cease and desist any attempt to calm a riot by a moderator in any particular thread by brig time up to 30 days. No posting by the moderator, close thread and ban. All involved, no disecting of the thread Seems kind of harsh when in all reality, we are all adults here and resorting to these measure is not the way to go.


2) A separate SH4 Uboat forum for modding.
a. Anyone found to be jumping the wall on a commando raid is to refer to resolution 1.

Myself and the rest of the Grey Wolves (as BBW states) would rather not have to fight the fight here, but a lot of the time we haven't had a choice due to provocation and baiting. If we say nothing in light of some outright foul accusations... then that's as good as saying "yes you are right". Lot of the time I feel pushed into a corner and tarred with a very unfair brush... the moment we speak out against it. We get a loud, "ah shuuudduuppp!!!" from certain sectors.

A seperate U-Boat modding forum sounds good for reasons outlined by BBW. It shouldn't be moderated by anybody with a fleet boat preference though.


Provocation and baiting come from both. It is not a one sided wall. However, it does not make it right on either side. As far as a moderator for the SH4 uboat mod forum, I have left Seth pretty much alone to handle the SH3 forums. In fact, one day a GWX crewman told me to 'ah shuuuuddduppp' because I'm hardly ever there. Obviously this person did not read Emily Post's, "How to Win and Influence Friends". But, even so, if all would not elect to jump the walls for fun, then whoeve might moderator the forum is immaterial.


Quote:
So, as JC stated, if you have come to this thread and felt the urge to jump right in with a counter claims, stop, get some coffee, tea, and think of post with some answers and resolutions. Neal and the moderators are asking for answers and resolutions from you, the member.

You reckon I've only come for counter-claims? I've come here to raise my grievances. I feel I have done that sensibly and politely as possible.


We were hoping for a thread that would develop into meaningful conversation and solution. It is slowly working towards that. Basic conversation between you, bbw as a start. It is moving along to a resolution in making all happy with the outcome. All involved are here and making suggestions. This is the only way to get it done. Truly, Neal and moderators want an enjoyable time for all on the forums. Signing on to bitter battles is wearing us thin.


Quote:
The podium is open for suggestions and resolutions. Thus far, my vote is for a separate forum concerning the uboats and the fleets. Lets face it, some members just like one or the other. For some reason, it does not mix well in the same pot. I believe these members should be able to enjoy the theater of their choice without having to dig through threads that do not interest them. I'm also casting a vote for the ban function and immediately deploying the ban.

Penelope, any suggestions on how to handle the current situation?

Ban function? Not sure I like the sounds of that. You ask me the hiring and firing I believe should stay in the hands of Neal Stevens and nobody else.

Like I've already said, moderators need to be more on the ball, stamp out the baiting and name calling before it gets out of control. Not wait till it erupts before getting involved.

If you read Neals 'watch out', this would indicate the function for brig time is left in our hands. After all, Neal has a life as well. To clarify the ban function, in reality it is brig time for a certain amount of days. Not out right ban. One has to do something very very very stupid to receive that. We have the ability to send members to the showers immediately. In having this function, we can stamp out the baiting and name calling on the spot, close the thread and send the respective offenders to the showers in seconds. Before, all we could do was close the thread. Five minutes later another thread would open and we are off to the races again. Sometimes a member would realize they were in for trouble but Neal was not around so they would start posting anything they like. This will preclude that from happening.

[TDK1044]

All that's needed is common sense and tolerance of views that may differ from your own.

About 99 percent of the members here adhere to that perfectly...a few choose to 'get into it' from time to time. When that happens, the Moderators will look closely at how a thread is developing and react accordingly.

At the end of the day, folks, this is a forum about a WWII video game, and we're all heading towards the sun at exactly the same speed. Let's keep things in perspective. :D

[Mikhayl]

So we're back to be courteous and respectful, and mind your business :lol:

[danlisa]

To clarify the ban function, in reality it is brig time for a certain amount of days. Not out right ban. One has to do something very very very stupid to receive that. We have the ability to send members to the showers immediately. In having this function, we can stamp out the baiting and name calling on the spot, close the thread and send the respective offenders to the showers in seconds.

However, I hope Neal is considering this action carefully, especially if/when a seperate ATO forum is created.

Above all, a moderator should be impartial, unbiased and unaffiliated with anything that may call his/her stance into question. Bottom line: They should be beyond reproach.

[AVGWarhawk]

And no one should confuse the generous amount of tolerance and forbearance that has been shown up to now with they way things are going to be in the future.



Nice threat.

You are welcome to interpret it anyway you like.

It was meant only as a statement of fact.

JCC

Possibly or possibly not. But either way, definitely surpassed by this previous one;


The podium is open for suggestions and resolutions. Thus far, my vote is for a separate forum concerning the uboats and the fleets. Lets face it, some members just like one or the other. For some reason, it does not mix well in the same pot. I believe these members should be able to enjoy the theater of their choice without having to dig through threads that do not interest them. I'm also casting a vote for the ban function and immediately deploying the ban.


I've sat back most of the day and followed this thread with a great sense of sadness.

I believe there may well be a way out of this mess for us all....and by that I mean the entire community.

Allow me to make a few observations and comments as a means to aide myself:

First point....Read Neals first post Just a friendly reminder, play nice, no sarcastic comments to others, don't start any flame wars.

Q: Check around the threads and see who the instigator is in the vast majority of occasions. The one that enters the room, drops a derogitory or sarcastic comment or even something smelly before beating a hasty exit and watching the ensuing turmoil that unfolds.

Neal himself has already stated that Up through the present day it appears there are a handful of people who look for a chance to take a shot at GW, and that's something I've had to address with a few people several times--subtle verbal attacks, outright abusive name-calling, and posting an image that conveys an insult, and GW cannot restrain from responding

It happens, whether you agree with me or not.

What is the usual consequence ?

A moderator closes the thread down.

I find it sadly strange that they are predominantly U-boat threads in the SH4 area.

Could a conspiracy theory eminate from this ?

Who knows?

I try to adhere to my RL training and instincts and keep an open but inquisitive mind.

A possible question that usually arises from the above is....Could there be an element of bias here in favour of SH4?

Possibly, especially when you consider that those moderating in the SH3 threads all play and spend far more time in the SH4 sections.

Now don't get me wrong, I am not calling any moderators honesty or integrity into question here, but I believe there is reasonable potential for a certain element of doubt when you consider that one of your good selves is a moderator on a certain forum that is seriously anti U-boat.

A forum that has numerous posts that are objectionable and subjective and go so far in places to call Neals honesty and integrity into question.

Never have I witnessed said moderator exercise their authority over there with such speed and zeal in closing down a thread or dampening a brush fire as quickly as I have witnessed on SS.

It would appear that members of said forum can post whatever venomous trash they like with total impunity to any consequences. It's usually accompanied with encouragement and additional ridicule from others.

In fact if I'm going to be challenged shortly after posting I think it also appropriate that I point out that I and others have actually read the odd negative post against SH3 by said inividual.

A question of credibility arises here and does little more than add weight to the concerns of those currently working on GWX4.

What is desperately needed is a moderator that enjoys the confidence and trust of so many instead of the current situation, which IMHO is not tenable.

(Please observe no reference or detail attached from any of our PM's)

Mr Robbins........You come across as so plausible, affable and conciliatory in your posts here.

Think again before continuing with the hypocricy.

What gives you the right to be so dishonest to so many on SS.

I find your attitude an afront to everyones intelligence on SS.

What you post here and what you post on another couple of forums are distinctly different.

Your comments 'from the peanut gallery' are often sadly, a source of entertainment to many.

I especially liked the one when you were boasting how you had fooled everyone into searching for a link which you deliberately pointed to another site where you are actively involved in encouraging people to leave SS.

You can wriggle whichever way you want.....but be the decent human being I'm sure you are, and don't insult the intelligence of myself and so many others here.

I'm deeply saddened at some of the detail I've posted here, mainly because I hoped it wouldn't be necessary to go down this route.

The point I'm trying to make is.....we will never come to a satisfactory conclusion that is acceptable to all if we aren't prepared to be open, honest and transparent with each other from the outset.

SS and it's community is far more important than all the people from either side of this sad divide.

REMEMBER!!......NONE OF US ARE AS CLEVER AS ALL OF US!!

Jim,

We are not here to for character assassinations or pointing out what you believe to be a short fall in someones idea of a good post. We are here attempting to solve a problem and make all happy to be here posting. Please be a voice in answering to the problem and not a continuation of it. Penelope and bigboywooly are helping in creating the answer for all. Follow suit if you will. To be honest, Neal is at his wits end and other life changing things are happening to Neal at present. Let resolve this, move on and allow Neal to sort his future. Neal and moderators are looking of answers to satify all.

Your suggestions and recommendations to further bolster friendship and developing he game are needed here.

[Digital_Trucker]

Real life interrupted for a few minutes or I would have added the following to my post directed to BBW. Regarding the points made about oneupsmanship, how can you repudiate a statement without knowing what the statement means?

BTW Nitpicking

1.to be excessively concerned with or critical of inconsequential details. –verb (used with object) 2.to criticize by focusing on inconsequential details. –noun 3.a carping, petty criticism. –adjective 4.of, pertaining to, or characteristic of a nitpicker or nitpicking. Also, nit-pick.

is not what I was doing when I answered the question that you asked (the definition of oneupsmanship).

You are correct in one respect though, this whole thing is going nowhere if we can't communicate and honestly listen to one another.

Edit: Once again, I type too slowly. Amen to the "all get along" sentiment.

[TDK1044]

So we're back to be courteous and respectful, and mind your business :lol:


'Forum Rage' doesn't get anybody anywhere. The contentious issue is still there after all of the insults have been hurled.

Losing a Forum member to an early and untimely death is far more important and significant than any nonsense that goes on between a few modders.

[Rockin Robbins]

You've used a poor example. Anvart was the first to point out that prop fix was already documented.

I stand by my statement, easily checked by anyone. The point was that a certain person's claimed prediscovery was not published, existed in no present mod or part of a mod and benefited nobody if it ever existed. Therefore no theft could have taken place by skwasjr. He performed a valuable service to SH4 players. The perpetrators of rapacious behavior provided a good example of predation.

[AVGWarhawk]

To clarify the ban function, in reality it is brig time for a certain amount of days. Not out right ban. One has to do something very very very stupid to receive that. We have the ability to send members to the showers immediately. In having this function, we can stamp out the baiting and name calling on the spot, close the thread and send the respective offenders to the showers in seconds.

However, I hope Neal is considering this action carefully, especially if/when a seperate ATO forum is created.

Above all, a moderator should be impartial, unbiased and unaffiliated with anything that may call his/her stance into question. Bottom line: They should be beyond reproach.

Sound reasonable to me in so much as the moderator selected would not use the brig function under heated duress thus going full bore if you get my drift. But again, in answer to Penelope for us to act, what can we do other than shut a thread only to have another open? Then said offender really goes off the deep end because then he realizes his goose is cooked anyway. In all reality, the discussions is to use the brig for a 24 hour cool down period. This all might just be in jest because we are attempting to satisfy all on the forums were we do not run into these issues anymore. But, it is at the moderators disposal if needed.


I truly believe that two forums are needed, not just for those in like mind but for other members to have it at their finger tips. It just seems sensible.

[Mikhayl]

Fully agreed TDK, I wasn't being sarcastic :yep:
The cherry picking of posts & events could go on and on, and almost everybody would get dirty so it's absolutely pointless to go further down that road, that's what, 3, 4 years of forum archives ? IMO the thread is about "get over it and be nice", not about "take the occasion to dance and sing in the mud".

[ReallyDedPoet]

I have left Seth pretty much alone to handle the SH3 forums.
Hey, don't forget about me :lol::lol::D

Truly, Neal and moderators want an enjoyable time for all on the forums. Signing on to bitter battles is wearing us thin.
Yes, this AVG :yep: I was a member well before I became a Moderator, I signed up here because of Silent Hunter and also war related history. But the experience has become much more than that.

When the opportunity presented itself to moderate, I jumped at it because I hold this place in such high regard, not any particular theatre or game, but SUBSIM itself.

As AVG mentioned we don't see everything that happens, but we do the best we can. Also, if members can work things out themselves that is the best scenario, if they can't then we do our best to get things back on track, sometimes that includes locking ( be it temporary or permanent ) a thread. This can also mean brig time. Nobody gets any joy in doing this, but sometimes it is necessary.

My .02 so far.


RDP

[AVGWarhawk]

You've used a poor example. Anvart was the first to point out that prop fix was already documented.

I stand by my statement, easily checked by anyone. The point was that a certain person's claimed prediscovery was not published, existed in no present mod or part of a mod and benefited nobody if it ever existed. Therefore no theft could have taken place by skwasjr. He performed a valuable service to SH4 players. The perpetrators of rapacious behavior provided a good example of predation.

Ok RR, point made. Any idea how to make all happy to be here working together? We really need to move on from this sort of posting.

[AVGWarhawk]

I have left Seth pretty much alone to handle the SH3 forums.
Hey, don't forget about me :lol::lol::D

Truly, Neal and moderators want an enjoyable time for all on the forums. Signing on to bitter battles is wearing us thin.
Yes, this AVG :yep: I was a member well before I became a Moderator, I signed up here because of Silent Hunter and also war related history. But the experience has become much more than that.

When the opportunity presented itself to moderate, I jumped at it because I hold this place in such high regard, not any particular theatre or game, but SUBSIM itself.

As AVG mentioned we don't see everything that happens, but we do the best we can. Also, if members can work things out themselves that is the best scenario, if they can't then we do our best to get things back on track, sometimes that includes locking ( be it temporary or permanent ) a thread. Sometimes this can also mean brig time. Nobody gets any joy in doing this, but sometimes it is necessary.

My .02 so far.


RDP

Sorry RDP. I forgot. See how much time I spend there? I do not have too, you and Seth are there. But I was told a while back that I'm never there so 'shuuuuddduuuppp'.

[AVGWarhawk]

Fully agreed TDK, I wasn't being sarcastic :yep:
The cherry picking of posts & events could go on and on, and almost everybody would get dirty so it's absolutely pointless to go further down that road, that's what, 3, 4 years of forum archives ? IMO the thread is about "get over it and be nice", not about "take the occasion to dance and sing in the mud".

In some respects it is about getting over it and being nice but more importantly, it is about getting both theaters set up to do their thing in peace. That is all. We want everyones opinion. We want ideas to mull over and digest. Resolution.

[danlisa]

You've used a poor example. Anvart was the first to point out that prop fix was already documented.

I stand by my statement, easily checked by anyone........The perpetrators of rapacious behavior provided a good example of predation.

You stand by it, while I ask everyone to check for themselves and decide. Here it is:http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=138212&page=2 the fun starts on pg2.

The facts are there.

While this post is not in the spirit of this thread it does highlight another point we have made here. You posted this http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=894935&postcount=98 and accused, openly, of GWX using pack tactics to derail the thread, prompting a reply that needed to bring to the attention of other members the untruth contained within. Again, thank you for proving another valid issue the GWX team has, we react when needed, we do not attack without provocation, whereas you seem content to continue to bring assumed GWX behaviour to this thread.

EDIT - @ AVG

Typing as you posted, sorry. I have made my point and will cease discussion of this issue as I think it has been resolved adequately.

[Mikhayl]

That's the point exactly, both theaters are doing good and living along just fine, but individuals don't. I already posted my view on that, a lot of people are lucky I don't have the red button :D

[Jimbuna]

And no one should confuse the generous amount of tolerance and forbearance that has been shown up to now with they way things are going to be in the future.



Nice threat.

You are welcome to interpret it anyway you like.

It was meant only as a statement of fact.

JCC

Possibly or possibly not. But either way, definitely surpassed by this previous one;


The podium is open for suggestions and resolutions. Thus far, my vote is for a separate forum concerning the uboats and the fleets. Lets face it, some members just like one or the other. For some reason, it does not mix well in the same pot. I believe these members should be able to enjoy the theater of their choice without having to dig through threads that do not interest them. I'm also casting a vote for the ban function and immediately deploying the ban.


I've sat back most of the day and followed this thread with a great sense of sadness.

I believe there may well be a way out of this mess for us all....and by that I mean the entire community.

Allow me to make a few observations and comments as a means to aide myself:

First point....Read Neals first post Just a friendly reminder, play nice, no sarcastic comments to others, don't start any flame wars.

Q: Check around the threads and see who the instigator is in the vast majority of occasions. The one that enters the room, drops a derogitory or sarcastic comment or even something smelly before beating a hasty exit and watching the ensuing turmoil that unfolds.

Neal himself has already stated that Up through the present day it appears there are a handful of people who look for a chance to take a shot at GW, and that's something I've had to address with a few people several times--subtle verbal attacks, outright abusive name-calling, and posting an image that conveys an insult, and GW cannot restrain from responding

It happens, whether you agree with me or not.

What is the usual consequence ?

A moderator closes the thread down.

I find it sadly strange that they are predominantly U-boat threads in the SH4 area.

Could a conspiracy theory eminate from this ?

Who knows?

I try to adhere to my RL training and instincts and keep an open but inquisitive mind.

A possible question that usually arises from the above is....Could there be an element of bias here in favour of SH4?

Possibly, especially when you consider that those moderating in the SH3 threads all play and spend far more time in the SH4 sections.

Now don't get me wrong, I am not calling any moderators honesty or integrity into question here, but I believe there is reasonable potential for a certain element of doubt when you consider that one of your good selves is a moderator on a certain forum that is seriously anti U-boat.

A forum that has numerous posts that are objectionable and subjective and go so far in places to call Neals honesty and integrity into question.

Never have I witnessed said moderator exercise their authority over there with such speed and zeal in closing down a thread or dampening a brush fire as quickly as I have witnessed on SS.

It would appear that members of said forum can post whatever venomous trash they like with total impunity to any consequences. It's usually accompanied with encouragement and additional ridicule from others.

In fact if I'm going to be challenged shortly after posting I think it also appropriate that I point out that I and others have actually read the odd negative post against SH3 by said inividual.

A question of credibility arises here and does little more than add weight to the concerns of those currently working on GWX4.

What is desperately needed is a moderator that enjoys the confidence and trust of so many instead of the current situation, which IMHO is not tenable.

(Please observe no reference or detail attached from any of our PM's)

Mr Robbins........You come across as so plausible, affable and conciliatory in your posts here.

Think again before continuing with the hypocricy.

What gives you the right to be so dishonest to so many on SS.

I find your attitude an afront to everyones intelligence on SS.

What you post here and what you post on another couple of forums are distinctly different.

Your comments 'from the peanut gallery' are often sadly, a source of entertainment to many.

I especially liked the one when you were boasting how you had fooled everyone into searching for a link which you deliberately pointed to another site where you are actively involved in encouraging people to leave SS.

You can wriggle whichever way you want.....but be the decent human being I'm sure you are, and don't insult the intelligence of myself and so many others here.

I'm deeply saddened at some of the detail I've posted here, mainly because I hoped it wouldn't be necessary to go down this route.

The point I'm trying to make is.....we will never come to a satisfactory conclusion that is acceptable to all if we aren't prepared to be open, honest and transparent with each other from the outset.

SS and it's community is far more important than all the people from either side of this sad divide.

REMEMBER!!......NONE OF US ARE AS CLEVER AS ALL OF US!!

Jim,

We are not here to for character assassinations or pointing out what you believe to be a short fall in someones idea of a good post. We are here attempting to solve a problem and make all happy to be here posting. Please be a voice in answering to the problem and not a continuation of it. Penelope and bigboywooly are helping in creating the answer for all. Follow suit if you will. To be honest, Neal is at his wits end and other life changing things are happening to Neal at present. Let resolve this, move on and allow Neal to sort his future. Neal and moderators are looking of answers to satify all.

Your suggestions and recommendations to further bolster friendship and developing he game are needed here.

I am well versed on Neals current personal position and I wish him all the the good fortune in the world. But this is not the issue here.

What saddens me is this is precisely the sort of dismissive response I anticipated.

[Penelope_Grey]

Provocation and baiting come from both.
Everything else you said is ok AVG... except that ^

No it doesn't. It comes from a hardcore who do not want U-Boat fans or U-Boat people like the Grey Wolves in the SH4 section, that message has been plain. I'm not saying that myself or my friends are perfect and saints... far from it... but one thing myself and others don't do is come here deliberately looking for a fight... but when they happen there is reputation to think of... and if somebody posts things to make me or my friends look bad...

I accept that by answering these people we are fanning the flames... trying to put the perverbial fire out with petrol. But if I came here and said that you were...I don't know... lets say I came and quietly and discreetly questioned your sexuality... You knew what I was talking about and came in and said, "no you are totally wrong and bang out of order" then bam I post back, you post back! Before you know it... its erupted. Versuvius has blown! This is what has been happening.

Its tiresome and pointless. More to the point, its downright frightening to me, things like this, post exchanges that are heated scare me because I never know what I am going to see next and I am afraid what people will think of me or say to me...

So why do we come here if we like U-Boats then??
LIke I have stated before I enjoy SH3 and SH4... SH3 more so yes... Grey Wolves is coming to SH4. What is built for SH4 will be released and it will be for everybody, no strings attached just as it was in the past. We all now have a vested insterest in SH4 all of us... everybody reading or posting in this thread, its the main reason I have came here to participate despite my unease... we approach from a different angles... but what we are hoping to do, is provide a choice, an alternative. Today you can sail a Tambor Class... tomorrow, you can sail a Type IXC... In an absolutely stunning graphical engine... The possibilities... wow! Who knows... somebody might create a mod where you sail as a British sub... maybe an Italian sub... where does it stop?

That has got to be better than saying its our way or none at all and petitions and what not. We (U-Boat fans) are not the enemies of SH4, we are not the enemies of the PTO but sometimes are treated like we are worse yet... at times, I have started to believe it... you guys arent' the allies and we aren't the axis... I think we are engrossed in our simulations a little too far.

For my point of view... I don't mind the PTO I'd rather be on the conning tower of a IXC than a Gato... yes!

BUT!

I don't want to rubbish anybody's fun... and I sure as hell do not want to see the obliteration or subjecation of the Fleet Boat element.

One thing we all have in common, we all have a vested interest in SH4

[bigboywooly]

Real life interrupted for a few minutes or I would have added the following to my post directed to BBW. Regarding the points made about oneupsmanship, how can you repudiate a statement without knowing what the statement means?

BTW Nitpicking

1.to be excessively concerned with or critical of inconsequential details. –verb (used with object) 2.to criticize by focusing on inconsequential details. –noun 3.a carping, petty criticism. –adjective 4.of, pertaining to, or characteristic of a nitpicker or nitpicking. Also, nit-pick.

is not what I was doing when I answered the question that you asked (the definition of oneupsmanship).

You are correct in one respect though, this whole thing is going nowhere if we can't communicate and honestly listen to one another.

Edit: Once again, I type too slowly. Amen to the "all get along" sentiment.

I wasnt refering to you when I said nitpicking but ALL in general :up:
We will get stuck on the small matters without moving forward

Some points people will never agree on however we ALL need to agree the theatre v theatre\flaming and baiting has to stop

The ATO will be appearing in the mods forum on a more regular basis than has done till now and the situation will only get worse unless something is done

A seperate forum may go a long way to helping but members need to make the change too

[AVGWarhawk]

Provocation and baiting come from both.
Everything else you said is ok AVG... except that ^

No it doesn't. It comes from a hardcore who do not want U-Boat fans or U-Boat people like the Grey Wolves in the SH4 section, that message has been plain. I'm not saying that myself or my friends are perfect and saints... far from it... but one thing myself and others don't do is come here deliberately looking for a fight... but when they happen there is reputation to think of... and if somebody posts things to make me or my friends look bad...

I accept that by answering these people we are fanning the flames... trying to put the perverbial fire out with petrol. But if I came here and said that you were...I don't know... lets say I came and quietly and discreetly questioned your sexuality... You knew what I was talking about and came in and said, "no you are totally wrong and bang out of order" then bam I post back, you post back! Before you know it... its erupted. Versuvius has blown! This is what has been happening.

Its tiresome and pointless. More to the point, its downright frightening to me, things like this, post exchanges that are heated scare me because I never know what I am going to see next and I am afraid what people will think of me or say to me...

So why do we come here if we like U-Boats then??
LIke I have stated before I enjoy SH3 and SH4... SH3 more so yes... Grey Wolves is coming to SH4. What is built for SH4 will be released and it will be for everybody, no strings attached just as it was in the past. We all now have a vested insterest in SH4 all of us... everybody reading or posting in this thread, its the main reason I have came here to participate despite my unease... we approach from a different angles... but what we are hoping to do, is provide a choice, an alternative. Today you can sail a Tambor Class... tomorrow, you can sail a Type IXC... In an absolutely stunning graphical engine... The possibilities... wow! Who knows... somebody might create a mod where you sail as a British sub... maybe an Italian sub... where does it stop?

That has got to be better than saying its our way or none at all and petitions and what not. We (U-Boat fans) are not the enemies of SH4, we are not the enemies of the PTO but sometimes are treated like we are worse yet... at times, I have started to believe it... you guys arent' the allies and we aren't the axis... I think we are engrossed in our simulations a little too far.

For my point of view... I don't mind the PTO I'd rather be on the conning tower of a IXC than a Gato... yes!

BUT!

I don't want to rubbish anybody's fun... and I sure as hell do not want to see the obliteration or subjecation of the Fleet Boat element.

One thing we all have in common, we all have a vested interest in SH4

This is the exact reason we have come to this juncture Penelope. We want peace for all in both theaters. Having a member such as yourself frighten by what you might find with your next visit is not what the forums are about. So, we are looking to remedy the situation. All nonsense aside, I really do believe a forum for each theater concerning modding SH4 is needed and at hand. As far as a moderator, that is up to Neal.

[AVGWarhawk]

And no one should confuse the generous amount of tolerance and forbearance that has been shown up to now with they way things are going to be in the future.



Nice threat.

You are welcome to interpret it anyway you like.

It was meant only as a statement of fact.

JCC

Possibly or possibly not. But either way, definitely surpassed by this previous one;


The podium is open for suggestions and resolutions. Thus far, my vote is for a separate forum concerning the uboats and the fleets. Lets face it, some members just like one or the other. For some reason, it does not mix well in the same pot. I believe these members should be able to enjoy the theater of their choice without having to dig through threads that do not interest them. I'm also casting a vote for the ban function and immediately deploying the ban.


I've sat back most of the day and followed this thread with a great sense of sadness.

I believe there may well be a way out of this mess for us all....and by that I mean the entire community.

Allow me to make a few observations and comments as a means to aide myself:

First point....Read Neals first post Just a friendly reminder, play nice, no sarcastic comments to others, don't start any flame wars.

Q: Check around the threads and see who the instigator is in the vast majority of occasions. The one that enters the room, drops a derogitory or sarcastic comment or even something smelly before beating a hasty exit and watching the ensuing turmoil that unfolds.

Neal himself has already stated that Up through the present day it appears there are a handful of people who look for a chance to take a shot at GW, and that's something I've had to address with a few people several times--subtle verbal attacks, outright abusive name-calling, and posting an image that conveys an insult, and GW cannot restrain from responding

It happens, whether you agree with me or not.

What is the usual consequence ?

A moderator closes the thread down.

I find it sadly strange that they are predominantly U-boat threads in the SH4 area.

Could a conspiracy theory eminate from this ?

Who knows?

I try to adhere to my RL training and instincts and keep an open but inquisitive mind.

A possible question that usually arises from the above is....Could there be an element of bias here in favour of SH4?

Possibly, especially when you consider that those moderating in the SH3 threads all play and spend far more time in the SH4 sections.

Now don't get me wrong, I am not calling any moderators honesty or integrity into question here, but I believe there is reasonable potential for a certain element of doubt when you consider that one of your good selves is a moderator on a certain forum that is seriously anti U-boat.

A forum that has numerous posts that are objectionable and subjective and go so far in places to call Neals honesty and integrity into question.

Never have I witnessed said moderator exercise their authority over there with such speed and zeal in closing down a thread or dampening a brush fire as quickly as I have witnessed on SS.

It would appear that members of said forum can post whatever venomous trash they like with total impunity to any consequences. It's usually accompanied with encouragement and additional ridicule from others.

In fact if I'm going to be challenged shortly after posting I think it also appropriate that I point out that I and others have actually read the odd negative post against SH3 by said inividual.

A question of credibility arises here and does little more than add weight to the concerns of those currently working on GWX4.

What is desperately needed is a moderator that enjoys the confidence and trust of so many instead of the current situation, which IMHO is not tenable.

(Please observe no reference or detail attached from any of our PM's)

Mr Robbins........You come across as so plausible, affable and conciliatory in your posts here.

Think again before continuing with the hypocricy.

What gives you the right to be so dishonest to so many on SS.

I find your attitude an afront to everyones intelligence on SS.

What you post here and what you post on another couple of forums are distinctly different.

Your comments 'from the peanut gallery' are often sadly, a source of entertainment to many.

I especially liked the one when you were boasting how you had fooled everyone into searching for a link which you deliberately pointed to another site where you are actively involved in encouraging people to leave SS.

You can wriggle whichever way you want.....but be the decent human being I'm sure you are, and don't insult the intelligence of myself and so many others here.

I'm deeply saddened at some of the detail I've posted here, mainly because I hoped it wouldn't be necessary to go down this route.

The point I'm trying to make is.....we will never come to a satisfactory conclusion that is acceptable to all if we aren't prepared to be open, honest and transparent with each other from the outset.

SS and it's community is far more important than all the people from either side of this sad divide.

REMEMBER!!......NONE OF US ARE AS CLEVER AS ALL OF US!!

Jim,

We are not here to for character assassinations or pointing out what you believe to be a short fall in someones idea of a good post. We are here attempting to solve a problem and make all happy to be here posting. Please be a voice in answering to the problem and not a continuation of it. Penelope and bigboywooly are helping in creating the answer for all. Follow suit if you will. To be honest, Neal is at his wits end and other life changing things are happening to Neal at present. Let resolve this, move on and allow Neal to sort his future. Neal and moderators are looking of answers to satify all.

Your suggestions and recommendations to further bolster friendship and developing he game are needed here.

I am well versed on Neals current personal position and I wish him all the the good fortune in the world. But this is not the issue here.

What saddens me is this is precisely the sort of dismissive response I anticipated.

What I do and my other dealings are not on trial here. I'm sure I have been discussed at the 'lair' more than once. Going down this 'route' you're hoping you do not have to looks to be more destructive then constructive. This is why a dismissive response. Perhaps listening to Penelope and her concerns/ideas and developing them for a common ground might be the best route at this time.

[Jimbuna]

And no one should confuse the generous amount of tolerance and forbearance that has been shown up to now with they way things are going to be in the future.



Nice threat.

You are welcome to interpret it anyway you like.

It was meant only as a statement of fact.

JCC

Possibly or possibly not. But either way, definitely surpassed by this previous one;


The podium is open for suggestions and resolutions. Thus far, my vote is for a separate forum concerning the uboats and the fleets. Lets face it, some members just like one or the other. For some reason, it does not mix well in the same pot. I believe these members should be able to enjoy the theater of their choice without having to dig through threads that do not interest them. I'm also casting a vote for the ban function and immediately deploying the ban.


I've sat back most of the day and followed this thread with a great sense of sadness.

I believe there may well be a way out of this mess for us all....and by that I mean the entire community.

Allow me to make a few observations and comments as a means to aide myself:

First point....Read Neals first post Just a friendly reminder, play nice, no sarcastic comments to others, don't start any flame wars.

Q: Check around the threads and see who the instigator is in the vast majority of occasions. The one that enters the room, drops a derogitory or sarcastic comment or even something smelly before beating a hasty exit and watching the ensuing turmoil that unfolds.

Neal himself has already stated that Up through the present day it appears there are a handful of people who look for a chance to take a shot at GW, and that's something I've had to address with a few people several times--subtle verbal attacks, outright abusive name-calling, and posting an image that conveys an insult, and GW cannot restrain from responding

It happens, whether you agree with me or not.

What is the usual consequence ?

A moderator closes the thread down.

I find it sadly strange that they are predominantly U-boat threads in the SH4 area.

Could a conspiracy theory eminate from this ?

Who knows?

I try to adhere to my RL training and instincts and keep an open but inquisitive mind.

A possible question that usually arises from the above is....Could there be an element of bias here in favour of SH4?

Possibly, especially when you consider that those moderating in the SH3 threads all play and spend far more time in the SH4 sections.

Now don't get me wrong, I am not calling any moderators honesty or integrity into question here, but I believe there is reasonable potential for a certain element of doubt when you consider that one of your good selves is a moderator on a certain forum that is seriously anti U-boat.

A forum that has numerous posts that are objectionable and subjective and go so far in places to call Neals honesty and integrity into question.

Never have I witnessed said moderator exercise their authority over there with such speed and zeal in closing down a thread or dampening a brush fire as quickly as I have witnessed on SS.

It would appear that members of said forum can post whatever venomous trash they like with total impunity to any consequences. It's usually accompanied with encouragement and additional ridicule from others.

In fact if I'm going to be challenged shortly after posting I think it also appropriate that I point out that I and others have actually read the odd negative post against SH3 by said inividual.

A question of credibility arises here and does little more than add weight to the concerns of those currently working on GWX4.

What is desperately needed is a moderator that enjoys the confidence and trust of so many instead of the current situation, which IMHO is not tenable.

(Please observe no reference or detail attached from any of our PM's)

Mr Robbins........You come across as so plausible, affable and conciliatory in your posts here.

Think again before continuing with the hypocricy.

What gives you the right to be so dishonest to so many on SS.

I find your attitude an afront to everyones intelligence on SS.

What you post here and what you post on another couple of forums are distinctly different.

Your comments 'from the peanut gallery' are often sadly, a source of entertainment to many.

I especially liked the one when you were boasting how you had fooled everyone into searching for a link which you deliberately pointed to another site where you are actively involved in encouraging people to leave SS.

You can wriggle whichever way you want.....but be the decent human being I'm sure you are, and don't insult the intelligence of myself and so many others here.

I'm deeply saddened at some of the detail I've posted here, mainly because I hoped it wouldn't be necessary to go down this route.

The point I'm trying to make is.....we will never come to a satisfactory conclusion that is acceptable to all if we aren't prepared to be open, honest and transparent with each other from the outset.

SS and it's community is far more important than all the people from either side of this sad divide.

REMEMBER!!......NONE OF US ARE AS CLEVER AS ALL OF US!!

Jim,

We are not here to for character assassinations or pointing out what you believe to be a short fall in someones idea of a good post. We are here attempting to solve a problem and make all happy to be here posting. Please be a voice in answering to the problem and not a continuation of it. Penelope and bigboywooly are helping in creating the answer for all. Follow suit if you will. To be honest, Neal is at his wits end and other life changing things are happening to Neal at present. Let resolve this, move on and allow Neal to sort his future. Neal and moderators are looking of answers to satify all.

Your suggestions and recommendations to further bolster friendship and developing he game are needed here.

I am well versed on Neals current personal position and I wish him all the the good fortune in the world. But this is not the issue here.

What saddens me is this is precisely the sort of dismissive response I anticipated.

What I do and my other dealings are not on trial here. I'm sure I have been discussed at the 'lair' more than once. Going down this 'route' you're hoping you do not have to looks to be more destructive then constructive. This is why a dismissive response. Perhaps listening to Penelope and her concerns/ideas and developing them for a common ground might be the best route at this time.


That's the second time you've referred to Penelope in your response to me.

FYI, what makes you think Penelope is stating anyone other than her own opinion or that Penelope is representative of the feelings of those from GWX who have already responded on this thread ? :hmm:

[Mush Martin]

A few reflections, I dont think which theatre of war your modding
plays into any of the contentiousness.

the issue at least for me and hopefully a few others goes further
than the subject of SHIII V SHIV Mod forums.

to me the issue is behaviour in the SS community at large.
I agree with the principles expressed by JC that dialogue and
listening are the correct path. I also agree that a more rigid
enforecement is called for by the admins.

I disagree with PG that there are no shIII instigators, they have
offended me, I would point out that while here on the shiv forums
barring a misunderstood statement in the first two days of my presence
here I have never had a problem on the shiv mods like I often did
on the shIII forum.

the issue is really simply manners and adherence to polite protocols.

Manners are the Oil in the Gears of society
they reduce the friction created when humans interact
that is the actual purpose of manners, you dont need to like anyone
you just need be polite. People that slander or criticize a proposal
of manners of conduct simply throw sand into the machine of society,
in this case SS, and that is a counter productive buisness in any intrepretation. Like PG I hesitate every time I boot up subsim lately
and brace myself to find it in complete ruin. I dont brace myself because
of anything Ive experienced on the shiv forums.

M

[skwasjer]

As author of S3D I have a different view on the modding community as pretty much 99% of you. In reality I don't mod at all, I've made one small PPF-mod (hardly special), and recently provided a solution to the propeller spin problem, as RR already stated. Other than that, I limit my time to work on S3D and help out other members when they have questions regarding the game files.

As a result, I don't often sit in the same seat as the 'modder' that has come up with a new mod, new feature, new idea, or for simply finding a fix to a long standing nuisance. It was very disappointing to hear that a solution was already known, while a fix was asked for many times (note: by others, never by me) in the past. Ironically, the guys that told me this also posted in another older thread where others and me were also discussing the problem. Note: no solution was brought forward! And as a result, no fix back then. No, I have to come up with a fix a couple of months later to hear it has been done before. Nice going! :nope:

To me, this is one of the root causes of the sometimes reoccuring drama show (we know, you don't) and I saw that coming very soon after a couple of replies. Nevertheless, I am happy I posted this information. I don't own this solution, the community does. No questions asked.

This has in fact happened before, and not just to me. I learned the hard way over the past year that many knowledge about the game IS available, but hardly anything was available in public. As a result I wasted countless hours in the first 6 months (and probably still do) to discover the game files by myself, only to learn afterwards people already knew about alot of stuff. Mind you, S3D has taken hundreds of hours, all by myself... I do this for ALL of the modding community (and not just around here). Let this thought sink for a while.

This is something I've said before, and I'll say it again, do withit whatever you want:

Senior modders in my book have an 'obligation' (for the lack of a better word, pardon me if it sounds to hard) to keep the community alive and most of all healthy. You could have saved me alot of trouble one year ago and others that start modding now. We all thank you for your past mods/work, but for everyone to enjoy modding, help people around. You may already do so, have done so, and continue to do so, which is great. But I often see seniors help others out in private (which isn't bad per se, as long as the knowledge finds the public one way or the other) or by doing the work for them, or the other way around by saying it's old news, or not say anything at all.

Wrong.

What this 'entire' community (both SH3/4) seriously lacks (even today) as opposed to other communities I've been part of is the 'desire' to share info. Yes, desire. People should be wanting to share that cool new find, through tutorials, walkthroughs, etc. You found a new trick? Cool, use it in your mod, and during or afterwards for all I care (if you are concerned about the 'praise') post a tutorial on how you achieved it. You get credit in two ways... And you've helped the common good.
Remember, you publish your mods for users, but you share your knowledge with co-modders. They are a different group. People forget about this way to often... Users enjoy your work, modders only want to know how you have done it. Whether you should do all this is your own choice, but in any case, I will and already do, as do many others, but it can be alot better if more do. Sure, it takes time to write something up, but don't forget it may have taken you dozens of hours to figure out, possibly even using free tools and/or already available knowledge. Why must others do this too? This is counterproductive.

Regarding 'unfinished' tools... S3D has been unfinished for over a year now, and was released as a v0.1 alpha which could basically only open the files and not much more. Uptil now, I have hardly had any user issues to resolve, so this is a non-issue to me. If you think you have a useful tool, but don't want or don't have time to improve it, why not just release it unfinished anyway (with or without source). Others may pick it up and improve it. That's what a community does...

The last couple of paragraphs are in the spirit of an opensource and collaborative community, and I happily do my part in it. If it wasn't like this or if this was to change, I'll be gone faster than you can say 'S3D'. My interests is to enjoy the game and it's technology, and a cooperative MOD-community, not to waste time on a community that fights and keeps everything to themselfs. That's why I am still here. We are still going in the right direction... :up:

I concluse this lengthy post with the following fact:

S3D helped more people to understand the game (including new modders, senior modders, GWX members, SH3 members, SH4 members), and allowed more people to join the modding world, be more creative with the game, and produced dozens if not hundreds small and big mods on either side of the pond, and it will continue to do so, no matter what preference of theater.

Speaking of which, stay tuned for the best S3D-update to date coming to you REAL soon... And damn it, because of this long post, it delayed the release! That's all I wanted to add... :smug:

[AVGWarhawk]

Jimbuna,

That's the second time you've referred to Penelope in your response to me.

FYI, what makes you think Penelope is stating anyone other than her own opinion or that Penelope is representative of the feelings of those from GWX who have already responded on this thread ? :hmm:

I did not state anywhere in the thread that Penelope was the forward leading authority to voice her opinion that encompasses everyones thoughts in the GWX camp. I stated Penelope and bigboywooly are providing some answers to a change here for the better concerning both theaters. Feel free to find a where I have done so and I will stand corrected. Thus far, these two have stepped forward, agreed that SH4 uboats should have their own forum, not only for the modders that have the interest soley in the uboats but for all members that are intriged by the uboats. It is just simple and organized. Each fan has their corner to create and learn. Once done, a new moderator to handle that forum. We ask that if the fence is jumped, it is to investigate, help and bolster the other theater when help is needed, a idea is new, exchange of information. This goes for both forums.

[TDK1044]

I wonder if a 'chat room' might be a good idea when 'difficult issues' arise. :hmm:

What if a Moderator could set up a chat room, and invite designated guests for a specific day and time, so that those directly involved in an issue could discuss them honestly and frankly in a private environment?

Authority to enter the room would be controlled Neal, or a Moderator or Moderators designated by him.

The idea here is not to alienate the majority of the members, but to allow a communication channel not currently available in order to help resove a tricky issue.

[MONOLITH]

I have yet to see an act of oneupmanship in respect of mods


Then people attack Anvart, partly due to a miscommunication due to the language barrier, Privateer defends Anvart, then Ducimus posts snide comments, KL reacts, then you post at Anvart, thread locked.

So you have just demonstrated how Ducimus managed to derail yet another perfectly sound thread.



Please do not interpret this as an attack, but merely an honest attempt to discuss a fact;

We have a claim from a GWX member "I've never seen oneupmanship attempt",

Then we have you leaving out the real first post that caused the problem. You conveniently left out jimbuna, who was the first to jump in quickly rub anvarts post in skwasjer's face with a "GWX did it first post'...seen here..

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=885623&postcount=23


Now, since it was clear Anvart's post was going to be an antagonist, what purpose did it serve for jimbuna to jump in and push it and promote a GWX oneupmanship in skwasjer's thread?

None, other than to demonstrate the very problem we're all here talking about.

And as for Ducimus and Lehmann, let's compare their words in that thread...



Who would have thought modding was such a political activity. :roll:

Over the years, i have come to realize that In general, while degrees of motivation vary, there are two basic types of modders: One, mods primarily for the betterment of the game; the other primarily for personal "glory", and the two often rub against one another. Just food for thought.




Oh grow up. Given your posting history you would be wise to keep your mouth shut.


Now honestly, which of those quotes is a bit more palatable, and which one of those quotes is childish trash that should be moderated.


This fight has never been about SH3 vs SH4. This has been about one group breaking every single forum ettiquette rule we could write, and being allowed to get away with it.

And, it's not going to change, because no one here at the top is willing to admit the truth. Friends turn a blind eye to other friends behaviors. One hand washes the other, etc etc.

And watch...watch how this post is reacted to. That will also demonstrate the problem here.

[Penelope_Grey]

And watch...watch how this post is reacted to. That will also demonstrate the problem here.
A very nice bait MONOLITH, Your post is not helping the situation. You even realise it with that final line! Yet hit the post button anyway. Also your quotes are very very selective too. Totally ignoring circumstances prior that led to said quotes.

Also, you make us to be the villain... you are not snow white either... Here is the prime example of what I have been talking about all along and your post proves it, just as you're ready to walk away somebody comes along turns you round and wallops you again. You are here placing all blame squarely on GWX's doorstep... its not happening sir... Its not fair, or justified.

You don't like the GWX team... we get it. That's fine... can't say it bothers me much at this moment because you have tried to stir up trouble in our ranks... you failed miserably but you still tried.

This "one group" don't need to be mystic to know who you mean. GWX... You see what you want to see. You don't like GWX so you stand against us and attempt to discredit the team... it is NOT all our fault, and I refuse point blank to be broadly accused of that by you given your past history against GWX.

[ReallyDedPoet]

The idea here is not to alienate the majority of the members, but to allow a communication channel not currently available in order to help resove a tricky issue.

Not sure if a chat room is needed, but it is an idea. But your point with regards to alienating members is a good one, they are the silent majority, I am curious how the casual member views this current discussion or for that matter, the reasons why this thread was created in the first place. These are the folks that keep this place going in the end.

Much talk about modding and such, but mods are not much good ( no disrespect intended ) if you don't have folks that use them and provide feedback, good and the not so good. Point being in the end we are all members here, yes some folks mod, some Moderate, others come to get a question answered and there are various reasons why other folks come here, but in the end we are all part of this place called SUBSIM, and it is one hell of a place.

Some more of my .02 .....


RDP

[MONOLITH]

Actually, it wasn't GWX I was talking about with my last sentence.

Sorry Penelope, but not everything is about you and GWX.



As for the rest of your post, look again, I have simply pulled actual posts from a thread, to stand for themselves. I haven't 'set anything up' or mislead anything. As for missing posts that 'led up to'...the thread is there for all to see, the only post before jimbuna's is anvarts GWX rub.

So, exactly how do you defend jimbuna jumping in to start the 'oneupmanship'?

Instead of attacking me with the typical line of 'you have a history with GWX, you don't like us, it's sooo unfair', how about we actually look at the fact and try to figure it out?

You avoid it, because there really is no defense for that post. And it does demonstrate a frequent style of uneupmanship that occurs here. And who's being mystic...lol.. I quoted GWX posts.

My post was not an attack on you, or GWX. I'm simply saying lets' look at the posts.... but instead of doing that, you just attack. Maybe my last line should apply to you after all.

There's no baiting or flaming in my post..only an eagerness to actually review the facts. You either do, or you don't. If you don't, then why not? Isn't that what we're trying to do in this thread?

So, the question would still be....


Now, since it was clear Anvart's post was going to be an antagonist, what purpose did it serve for jimbuna to jump in and push it and promote a GWX oneupmanship in skwasjer's thread?

[skwasjer]

Calm down :smug:

[Mikhayl]

Ok, fine, but again, picking posts here and there doesn't make things any better, everybody could pick posts of X or Y and say "see, I told you". It's like running in circle, nobody's going anywhere with that. So, what's next ?
edit, what are you doing there anyway Skwas', where that new release already ?! :rotfl:

[Mush Martin]

/\
/\
/\ Like He said :nope: (Skwasjer that is)

[bigboywooly]

Correct me if I am wrong

Read this thread

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=115470

And what does it say

I have been asked by Privateer to announce that he has fixed the props in SH4 so that they now rotate correctly:arrgh!:

Edit:
Fixed propellers for Gato
http://files.filefront.com/NSS_Gato7.../fileinfo.html (http://files.filefront.com/NSS_Gato7z/;7624292;/fileinfo.html)


And the date

26th May 2007

So when someone ( Anvart ) posts GWX did it a long time ago
He is correct
AND the file was released to the community

So Jim did reply in the affermative as he released that file for Privateer

[MONOLITH]

So, what's next ?


Better moderation.

This is the only website of many I belong too, where one member publically posting "You're a friggin idiot, shut the hell up" to another member is tolerated.

The excuse of "we're all grown ups and can police ourselves" is BS, because obviously that isn't true.

And while some might enjoy the freedom to run their mouths any way they wish, others should not ignore the negative atmosphere that allowing such childish crap to exist creates.

Likewise, someone entering another thread with the obvious only intention to antagonize someone, should also be dealt with. The fact that it's not, is a big reason why we have this thread right now.

[Mush Martin]

To me its really simple

eject spammers and flamers without regard for position or history,
remorslessly and consistently. Sooner or later the bad eggs will be
gone and the tame eggs will be left, simply because the bad eggs
cant stop themselves from it and the good ones can.

evolutions a contact sport,

besides there is precedent for ejection with pardon.
so even in the event thats not necessarily total exclusion
either but serious reprimand with permanent overtones.

if nothing else a liberal application of the brig in specific cases of
rule violation.

in civi street, it works like this, if it is offensive to someone then by
definition if it falls somewhere in the vicinity of the behaviour then it
is an Offense, or so it seems these days in civil law. this I feel should
be a clear position to judge from for all moderators.

M

[MONOLITH]

So when someone ( Anvart ) posts GWX did it a long time ago
He is correct
AND the file was released to the community



Sure he was correct. That's clearly not the issue.

The issue was the real intention of Anvart in that thread, to bust skwasjer chops. And Jimbuna, rather than either calm it or ignore it, seizes the opportunity to fan the flames with a further rub in skwasjers face with a "GWX did it first" post.

It's pretty hard to not see that any other way.

[MONOLITH]

eject spammers and flamers without regard for position or history,
remorslessly and consistently.

EXACTLY!


The problem here is, certain individuals have been given carte blanche to act anyway they please.

That needs to change.

[bigboywooly]

So when someone ( Anvart ) posts GWX did it a long time ago
He is correct
AND the file was released to the community



Sure he was correct. That's clearly not the issue.

The issue was the real intention of Anvart in that thread, to bust skwasjer chops. And Jimbuna, rather than either calm it or ignore it, seizes the opportunity to fan the flames with a further rub in skwasjers face with a "GWX did it first" post.

It's pretty hard to not see that any other way.

Well as posted by numerous ppl GWX had a fix and never released it
Anvart is NOT part of GWX
And all Jim did was agree with Anvart as Anvart was correct in saying GWX did it ages ago
AND RELEASED IT

See this is the kind of BS that gets nowhere

What Anvart says is a matter for Anvart
No one else

I thought the idea of this thread was to come to an agreement about peace and respect
NOT use it to drag up old scores and vent
As some seem intent on doing

[bigboywooly]

eject spammers and flamers without regard for position or history,
remorslessly and consistently.

EXACTLY!


The problem here is, certain individuals have been given carte blanche to act anyway they please.

That needs to change.

No arguement with that at all

[MONOLITH]

I thought the idea of this thread was to come to an agreement about peace and respect
NOT use it to drag up old scores and vent
As some seem intent on doing


Sorry BBW, but your teammate danlisa justed posted that thread, as a weapon against someone.

You guys are okay to drag up old threads, when it works for you.

When it doesn't, you want to complain about dragging up old threads.



Being hypocritical and one sided is exactly what contributes to these problems.


I'm all for working together for solutions. But what's fair for you to do should be fair for everyone else as well.

[Mush Martin]

eject spammers and flamers without regard for position or history,
remorslessly and consistently.
EXACTLY!


The problem here is, certain individuals have been given carte blanche to act anyway they please.

That needs to change.
No arguement with that at all



See Neal they Can agree on something :up:

[John Channing]

So, what's next ?


Better moderation.

This is the only website of many I belong too, where one member publically posting "You're a friggin idiot, shut the hell up" to another member is tolerated.

The excuse of "we're all grown ups and can police ourselves" is BS, because obviously that isn't true.

And while some might enjoy the freedom to run their mouths any way they wish, others should not ignore the negative atmosphere that allowing such childish crap to exist creates.

Likewise, someone entering another thread with the obvious only intention to antagonize someone, should also be dealt with. The fact that it's not, is a big reason why we have this thread right now.

Well I just spent that last few minutes going through all of my e-mail accounts that had the header "Reported Post from Subsim.com"" and guess what.... not a single one from anyone on either side of this issue.

Lots and lots about spammers, several on people who don't use the search function and one that I have no idea what-the-hell they were talking about, but nothing on any of this... ever.

Colour me surprised.

JCC

[bigboywooly]

Danlisa isnt the only one to drag up old threads and old scores
Did I drag up an old score ? - one thread which showed a release of something said not been released
I speak for myself as Dan does
So where was I being hypocritical ?

If all the crew at Ducimus's forum all wore the same sig would they all be lumped in together ?
Doubt it

You try to move forward and tis a drag back all the time
So whats the point ?
No really

Whats the point

[Mush Martin]

Danlisa isnt the only one to drag up old threads and old scores
Did I drag up an old score ? - one thread which showed a release of something said not been released
I speak for myself as Dan does
So where was I being hypocritical ?

If all the crew at Ducimus's forum all wore the same sig would they all be lumped in together ?
Doubt it

You try to move forward and tis a drag back all the time
So whats the point ?
No really

Whats the point

I like to believe everybody booked onto this thread to improve
the community and just got caught being human.

when you have previous grudges its hard not to get inflamed
true for both sides, the trick is to fight being reactionary
and maintain the initiative. in the final analysis its about improving
the social atmosphere here back to a more Pink Fuzzy Bunny Kind O Place.

M (out)

[MONOLITH]

Well I just spent that last few minutes going through all of my e-mail accounts that had the header "Reported Post from Subsim.com"" and guess what.... not a single one from anyone on either side of this issue.

Lots and lots about spammers, several on people who don't use the search function and one that I have no idea what-the-hell they were talking about, but nothing on any of this... ever.

Colour me surprised.

JCC


Okay John, let's look at that for a sec;


I made a statement that said certain posting behaviors create a negative atmosphere. That would seem to be fairly irrefutable common logic.

You, as a staff member, decide to ridicule me for the statement.

When that's the posture of the staff, why would they email you?


I'm done. You guys can waddle in the mess that you say you want to fix, but actually refuse to.

[John Channing]

Well I just spent that last few minutes going through all of my e-mail accounts that had the header "Reported Post from Subsim.com"" and guess what.... not a single one from anyone on either side of this issue.

Lots and lots about spammers, several on people who don't use the search function and one that I have no idea what-the-hell they were talking about, but nothing on any of this... ever.

Colour me surprised.

JCC


Okay John, let's look at that for a sec;


I made a statement that said certain posting behaviors create a negative atmosphere. That would seem to be fairly irrefutable common logic.

You, as a staff member, decide to ridicule me for the statement.

When that's the posture of the staff, why would they email you?


I'm done. You guys can waddle in the mess that you say you want to fix, but actually refuse to.

It was not my intention to ridicule anyone, but rather to point out that it is everyone's responsiblity to help keep things in order. The point is if anyone (again...ANYONE) sees a post that they find objectionable then report it.

Only that.

JCC

[John Channing]

And before I forget it is probably time for a reminder that, even though Neal did encourage people to express their views openly, this is not a free fire zone.

Keep it civil.


JCC

[DedEye]

But your point with regards to alienating members is a good one, they are the silent majority, I am curious how the casual member views this current discussion or for that matter, the reasons why this thread was created in the first place.

I come here in spurts and don't say much. I don't know if I'm "casual" since I've been a member so long, but I have to say I was surprised to see this thread, and after reading all of the posts, am surprised at the apparent level of vitriol between some members. Until now I was unaware of this, but I'm not here daily, and don't read all of the threads.

I remain impressed by the level of intelligence, sophistication, composure, articulation (esp for those who don't have English as their native tongue) and dedication of so many of the people here. I play a lot of different PC games (shooters, RPGs, strategy/wargames, you name it), and so visit many sites like bluesnews, shack, etc. Being into myriad sims, I've also visited and become a member in many other forums dedicated to other types. Subsim is easily my favourite, and is in a league of it's own imo. I can't say I've ever had someone say "RTFM!" to me here, and for the most part people are polite and go out of their way to help. Being teh intarweb though, there's all types, which is why we need boundaries and moderators.

While I'm at it, I want to take this opportunity to thank each and everyone of the people who contributed to saving the last 3 Silent Hunter sims for me, which includes most of you posting in this thread. THANKS! :D

[AVGWarhawk]

And before I forget it is probably time for a reminder that, even though Neal did encourage people to express their views openly, this is not a free fire zone.

Keep it civil.


JCC

John is correct here. This was not ment to be a free-for-all as requested by Neal. With all do respect, please adhere to this request. Opening old wounds and dropping in some salt is not the intention of this thread. The intention is to stop what is going on openly in the forums and behind closed doors. I'm beginning to feel it quite impossible. What was looking to be a positive move towards that seems to be faltering at the foundation. Has it gone to far to even begin to become salvaged at all? All who posted, you be the judge of that. Please keep focused on the issue at hand, that is recommendations in stopping what we have witness in a few posts back.

[AVGWarhawk]

Danlisa isnt the only one to drag up old threads and old scores
Did I drag up an old score ? - one thread which showed a release of something said not been released
I speak for myself as Dan does
So where was I being hypocritical ?

If all the crew at Ducimus's forum all wore the same sig would they all be lumped in together ?
Doubt it

You try to move forward and tis a drag back all the time
So whats the point ?
No really

Whats the point

To set the record straight, the forum you refer to was started and maintained by Swdw(Sam). He did so when he was given free feign from Beery to take on RFB. In light of bandwidth, respect for what Neal has going here at SS, Sam created this open forum for development. Ducimus was invited by Sam to work TMO from this site. Basically, Ducimus was given a parking spot on Sam's to work with TMO and toss around ideas with the developers of RFB.

[bigboywooly]

Danlisa isnt the only one to drag up old threads and old scores
Did I drag up an old score ? - one thread which showed a release of something said not been released
I speak for myself as Dan does
So where was I being hypocritical ?

If all the crew at Ducimus's forum all wore the same sig would they all be lumped in together ?
Doubt it

You try to move forward and tis a drag back all the time
So whats the point ?
No really

Whats the point

To set the record straight, the forum you refer to was started and maintained by Swdw(Sam). He did so when he was given free feign from Beery to take on RFB. In light of bandwidth, respect for what Neal has going here at SS, Sam created this open forum for development. Ducimus was invited by Sam to work TMO from this site. Basically, Ducimus was given a parking spot on Sam's to work with TMO and toss around ideas with the developers of RFB.

I wasnt refering to kickingbak
matters not

The point was about sigs
If every GWX member wore an individual sig would they get pounced on as often ?
If SH4 modteam members all wore the same sig would it be more visible ?

Again moves away from the original point of this thread which started well and went the usual way
South

Yes I am as guilty of that as some but when questioned I answer
Simple

Still I tried
Stuck with it where others have not
The ultimate decision is Neals
His forum his rules

[Madox58]

I'll now add Psychic to my resume.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=893716&postcount=23

[AVGWarhawk]

Danlisa isnt the only one to drag up old threads and old scores
Did I drag up an old score ? - one thread which showed a release of something said not been released
I speak for myself as Dan does
So where was I being hypocritical ?

If all the crew at Ducimus's forum all wore the same sig would they all be lumped in together ?
Doubt it

You try to move forward and tis a drag back all the time
So whats the point ?
No really

Whats the point

To set the record straight, the forum you refer to was started and maintained by Swdw(Sam). He did so when he was given free feign from Beery to take on RFB. In light of bandwidth, respect for what Neal has going here at SS, Sam created this open forum for development. Ducimus was invited by Sam to work TMO from this site. Basically, Ducimus was given a parking spot on Sam's to work with TMO and toss around ideas with the developers of RFB.

I wasnt refering to kickingbak
matters not

The point was about sigs
If every GWX member wore an individual sig would they get pounced on as often ?
If SH4 modteam members all wore the same sig would it be more visible ?

Again moves away from the original point of this thread which started well and went the usual way
South

Yes I am as guilty of that as some but when questioned I answer
Simple

Still I tried
Stuck with it where others have not
The ultimate decision is Neals
His forum his rules

BBW,

I do not believe sigs have anything to do with it. As far as the bouncing. It has been a two way street from both camps. I do not see where a picture advertising GWX on the members post illicit a response to bounce on the team member. Can you explain that to me because I'm at a loss.

At any rate, the thread has gone south as you observed. Once again, I believe we are getting nowhere and doing so very fast. At this point, further discussion looks to be fruitless. Therefore, I'm still in favor of a SH4 uboat mod forum. Immediate 24 hour ban or longer when threads rear an ugly head...no matter who started what. All involved are sent to the locker room. I see no other alternative. As for a moderator, to be honest, it takes more then one. Sitting in front of a computer policing the threads is not a 24 hour job for one individual. Although Penelope would love to have an impartial moderator, that assurance can not be guaranteed. But, should that really matter if members keep it up to snuff? I suspect some individuals will test the waters as they are having a bad day and someone else is going to have a bad day right along with them. No matter their name, what they posted or what sig they might carry. These individuals will be put aside for a powder. Eventually they will figure it out. Not much else I can say.

[AVGWarhawk]

I'll now add Psychic to my resume.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=893716&postcount=23

Good one Privateer but we all knew it was coming. That was a given. What do you say about adding a SH4 Uboat mod forum? Do you think it would quell some of the craziness that occurs from time to time?

[AVGWarhawk]

Well I just spent that last few minutes going through all of my e-mail accounts that had the header "Reported Post from Subsim.com"" and guess what.... not a single one from anyone on either side of this issue.

Lots and lots about spammers, several on people who don't use the search function and one that I have no idea what-the-hell they were talking about, but nothing on any of this... ever.

Colour me surprised.

JCC


Okay John, let's look at that for a sec;


I made a statement that said certain posting behaviors create a negative atmosphere. That would seem to be fairly irrefutable common logic.

You, as a staff member, decide to ridicule me for the statement.

When that's the posture of the staff, why would they email you?


I'm done. You guys can waddle in the mess that you say you want to fix, but actually refuse to.

The mess we are waddling in has been created by 99% of the folks on this very thread. Quite the contrary to not wanting to clean it up; this is what this thread is attempting to do. As the usual method of operation, the shots on who said what, where, why and retort to follow has presented itself in the usual fashion. We know without a shadow of a doubt, this tactic does not work. The who started what, pointed a finger at who, I'm innocent and never started anything has been disected beyond recognition to the point that it is all just jumbled information pretty much worthless to all involved. But, as you so point blank put it a few posts back, tough moderation. Immediate 24 hour brig for those involved. Does not matter who started what. As the saying goes, second blow starts the fight. I'm in complete agreement on your stance with this Monolith. However, some are looking for a impartial judge and jury(moderator). Highly impossible to find. Does not matter how impartial the moderator is...ALL involved get banned...not just the selected few.

So if member A says member B is a dork and member B retorts back with your are a dork. Both dorks get the 24 ban. If dork C shows up to support either dork A or B, dork C goes right along with them. Hopefully a 24 hour ban will help dork A, B and C realise they are being dorks and will not do this in the future. Over simplified version but how it would operate non-the-less. Now if member A calls member B a dork but member B refuses the bait, does member B have to sit and take it? Nope, advise the moderator, moderator has a heart to heart with member A. If member A so wishs to continue taunting member B, A gets the ban. Just as there are bullies on the playground, there are bullies here has well. Some of these bullies have friends. We can not tolerate bully tactics nor gang like tactics either.

[Madox58]

As much as I wish it was not needed?
I can only see that as the first step to quell this constant
'Bear hunting with a switch' type stuff.

The 'selective memory' stuff is getting beyond silly!!
The constant 'this thread link, that thread link' is non-productive
and is the uglyness I partially referred to.

The 'Petition-demands-call it what you will'
is the other part of ugly I saw coming.

I'll give you all my tools when you give me the keys to your house,
car, motorcycle, bank account, add nauseum!

I, and all others, OWE nothing to anyone here.
We did the hard part and now you want a hand out?

I do not support Welfare.
If you refuse to learn what some have tried to teach?
Why are we now to blame for your lazyness?

I TRIED to teach hex editing at one point!
Even had a thread that Cpt. Cox learned from!

No, that's to hard,
Don't have the time,
add any excuse you want?
it's still just an excuse!

I came in STONE COLD!!
I learned.
But I put in the time!
I did not make excuses and I answer every question I can.

I've even been suspect with the GW Team a time or 2.
Yet I'm 'one of the usual suspects?'

You asked AVG.
There it is.
No disrespect intended but it is what it is.

I'll share what I see fit to share.
No more.
No less.

I've shared things most don't even bother to check on!
Can't use the search function?
Not my problem!

Maybe a rule outlawing lazyness?
:hmm:

[AVGWarhawk]

As much as I wish it was not needed?
I can only see that as the first step to quell this constant
'Bear hunting with a switch' type stuff.

The 'selective memory' stuff is getting beyond silly!!
The constant 'this thread link, that thread link' is non-productive
and is the uglyness I partially referred to.

The 'Petition-demands-call it what you will'
is the other part of ugly I saw coming.

I'll give you all my tools when you give me the keys to your house,
car, motorcycle, bank account, add nauseum!

I, and all others, OWE nothing to anyone here.
We did the hard part and now you want a hand out?

I do not support Welfare.
If you refuse to learn what some have tried to teach?
Why are we now to blame for your lazyness?

I TRIED to teach hex editing at one point!
Even had a thread that Cpt. Cox learned from!

No, that's to hard,
Don't have the time,
add any excuse you want?
it's still just an excuse!

I came in STONE COLD!!
I learned.
But I put in the time!
I did not make excuses and I answer every question I can.

I've even been suspect with the GW Team a time or 2.
Yet I'm 'one of the usual suspects?'

You asked AVG.
There it is.
No disrespect intended but it is what it is.

I'll share what I see fit to share.
No more.
No less.

I've shared things most don't even bother to check on!
Can't use the search function?
Not my problem!

Maybe a rule outlawing lazyness?
:hmm:

No one can demand what tools you created or used. However, sharing is nice. That is up to the individual. No one can fault you there and your thoughts on the matter, but you answer has nothing to do with my questions.

Do you think a SH4 uboat forum is a good idea? Will it help stop some of the things we see happening in this very thread? Would an immediate 24 hour ban (or longer) for offenders be enough to keep people straight?

[Madox58]

Sorry Sir, but did you read the first lines?
I clearly stated in regards to a seperate forum

"As much as I wish it was not needed?
I can only see that as the first step to quell this constant
'Bear hunting with a switch' type stuff'

[Dowly]

Re: Chat room

Subsim had one the last time I checked. ;)

[Carotio]

Have a break everyone and cool down for a second.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/Carotio/DSC01342.jpg
Very nice icecream bought at Nancy, France, btw...

This thread should be an attempt to reach each other for a common goal of coexistence for all, right?
I think we all have had the opportunity to stir up old issues, where X and Y disagreed on something.
Can the discussion please get back on track to pointing out single lines of behaviour/conduct, which will please the majority, or shall we just continue the mudthrowing?

Hey, I have had my issues with some GWX members too, but hey, guess, what? I don't give a d@mn about it now. It all comes down to the fact that we're all human beings with that in mind that we all express ourselves in a manner, which we later regret. Then it comes down to self admit and/or forgiveness/to forget.
It also comes down to focus? What do you choose to focus on? Do you only want to focus on all the cr@p posts someone makes? Or can you also ackknowledge all the great posts the same person makes?
F.i. BBW - who is involved in this thread too. I see - in this thread - some posts of his, where I either disagree or just don't get, what he's saying - maybe due to the fact that English ain't my native language or just that he's mouth babbling :lol: , don't know. But I also know from SH3 mod workshop that he's been well informative/helping to both newbies and modders with other projects than his own.

This was just an exemple to show that the world is not just black and white. It's also grey.

This is something us daily users can have in mind. Though I did see someone raise a point about moderating. I could also wish that when a user frequently ask others to shut the F up, that user, regardless of skills and contribution, is sent to the brig for 14 days or so. That would might help the behaviour of that person, one can only hope....

Have a nice day everyone :up:

[Penelope_Grey]

Actually, it wasn't GWX I was talking about with my last sentence.

Sorry Penelope, but not everything is about you and GWX.
It used to be in your not so recent past, you were a member of a little anti-GWX coalition. And you did try to divide us. So I am always naturally dubious of things like that. You didn't say who you were talking about either... and people who don't speak direct and say exactly what they mean IMO are not to be trusted.


As for the rest of your post, look again, I have simply pulled actual posts from a thread, to stand for themselves. I haven't 'set anything up' or mislead anything. As for missing posts that 'led up to'...the thread is there for all to see, the only post before jimbuna's is anvarts GWX rub.

So, exactly how do you defend jimbuna jumping in to start the 'oneupmanship'?
Like BBW said, Jimbuna was confirming Anvarts facts. If you see it as oneupping... fine... Nothing much I could do or say to change that.

Instead of attacking me with the typical line of 'you have a history with GWX, you don't like us, it's sooo unfair', how about we actually look at the fact and try to figure it out?
I didn't "attack" you with that line. Its true though. You have stated many times you don't like the way the Grey Wolves operate. Given your past attempts on us...

You avoid it, because there really is no defense for that post. And it does demonstrate a frequent style of uneupmanship that occurs here. And who's being mystic...lol.. I quoted GWX posts.
BBW has already answered this.

My post was not an attack on you, or GWX. I'm simply saying lets' look at the posts.... but instead of doing that, you just attack. Maybe my last line should apply to you after all.

Please don't try to treat me and other SS members like fools. Your post was saying, here is a Ducimus and here is Kpt. Lehmann Which looks better...? In your selections, Ducimus did. Again, I didn't attack you. I just disputed your choice of material as being selective of making a point and promoting your own personal interests.

There's no baiting or flaming in my post..only an eagerness to actually review the facts. You either do, or you don't. If you don't, then why not? Isn't that what we're trying to do in this thread?
If you say so. But you were very quick to rake up GW sins and the fact you recognised your post was going to cause a bit of action proves something MONOLITH.

So, the question would still be....


Now, since it was clear Anvart's post was going to be an antagonist, what purpose did it serve for jimbuna to jump in and push it and promote a GWX oneupmanship in skwasjer's thread?[/quote]

This has been answered beautifully for you by BBW.:up:

There is a solution and as I said... all of us have a vested interest in SH4 that we have in common, what we don't have in common is how we want to use it.

EDIT: I think a solution will be reached soon that is good for all of us. I have faith in subsim and Neal.

[Suicide Charlie]

Thank you for absolutely crushing my high esteem in these forums and the subsim modding community. I'm completely disgusted right now.

Speaking of "oneupmanship" this entire thread is full of it and you're all guilty of it. None of you can let it go and stop trying to get the last word in.

IT'S A GAME.

All of you "adults" who have gone on and on about how mature this community is (I have said the same and praised it as well) are acting like a bunch of pre-teens. I can't believe I just skimmed through pages upon pages of "he said she said" crap. You're all seriously worse than the thirteen year old 1337 warriors I used to encounter in old school Counter Strike and Battlefield2. I think Halo is currently sporting a more unified and grown up community than us.

You need no fence to keep you guys in check. Nor do you need moderators without lives to constantly scan the forums for problems. You know what you all need? Some balls and brains to keep your business to yourself and to learn to leave one another alone. That's seriously an elementary level lesson. You guys are so great at reading and writing lines of code and solving problems, but yet you can't even solve this one? Give me a break.

I'm boycotting the both of you babies.

[HunterICX]

Nor do you need moderators without lives to constantly scan the forums for problems.

Hold the phone there man! :rotfl:

HunterICX

[Suicide Charlie]

For how long!?

btw, I meant that in reference to somebody made earlier in the thread. It seemed to suggest that the moderators should be paying closer attention or some other load of bull.

[HunterICX]

anyway if there is any result we want to see at the end of this thread it would be something like this:

http://www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/index.php?module=see&lang=uk&code=986c7bd71c74dff6679e8d23e4ac844a

(I'm sorry I really couldnt resist :rotfl: )

HunterICX

[ReallyDedPoet]

^^^ Seek help now Hunter :yep::lol::lol:

Anyhoo, this process needs to stay the course and at the end of the day some workable solutions found. After that if some folks still don't get it, then they will need to ask themselves if they really belong here anyway.

I too have faith in Neal, the membership here and my fellow Moderators that this place will be fine at the end of the day. SUBSIM derserves out best effort to get it done, learn from it and move on.


RDP

[AVGWarhawk]

Very nice folks. I have awoken to find this thread has not grown into 16 pages of mud wrestling. We are making some headway. So, we find we can say forget about it, not worth it, lets move on to something else that does some good. Monolith and Penelope, rest your cases now. According to Suicide Charlie, we are ALL are a bunch of idiots and are displaying the idiocy quite well. Unfortunate for us, he is 100% correct. So, to rehash yesterdays notes (omitting the uglies):

1) A separate uboat mod forum would help bolster harmony amongst the ranks.
Everyone would have their theater of choice to run and play in with impunity
and without fear of reprisal.

2) A moderator (impartial) is needed for this forum. Finding a impartial moderator
might prove to be a impossiblity and propably not needed because point #1
that will bolster harmony will not require this moderator to use the moderating
tools available. Point #3 as a backup if point #1 fails to deliver as promised.

3) For those that do attempt to jump the fence only to pull the switches and
press the wrong buttons (ie covert operations) can and will be subject to
brig time as little as 24 hours but possibly up to 30 days. I suspect the 24 hour function
to be used first to stop the offender and Neal as the final say as to how
the sanction will last.

These are the ideas thrown out there thus far. Without continuance of throwing mud, would anyone would like to interject another point or action to ponder please do so. Although these three plans of action look good, in reality, it is a shame that it has to come to this juncture. More often then not, we find those that rub us the wrong way for one particular instance on the forum, intentional or not, are just as normal as the next guy/gal. Someone you could really get along with and probably with minimal effort on your part. Everyone here is good natured, creative and highly competative. All good quailities to be sure. However, the highly competative nature is what gets us in trouble. Ask Tonya Harding what highly competative nature can do to a person. Ask Nancy Kerigan how her knee is feeling. The follow in a nut shell is Tonya's and Nancy sorted story:


Tonya Harding arranged an attack on Nancy Kerrigan during the 1994 US Championships. She never made it to the Olympics, she was kicked out of skating for it. Tonya was jealous of Nancy because at the time Nancy was America's sweetheart in the skating competitions. Tonya thought she would have a better shot at things with her gone...


This is all that is going on here folks. Kind of strange is it not? How can I belittle someone, what can I do to have another fall from grace, what bystander is going to be my target of opportunity? And for what, superiority, glory, my goodies are better then your goodies, if you do not play the way I want you too I'm taking my football and going home? If you look at all of this in this light, it is quite silly. So, the highly competative nature found here has gotten to the better of us. This has resulted in distrust, chasing away others with potential to add, diminished our standing as a great forum to visit regularly, generated undue stress for some folks, stifled creativity and generally made us all look like the south end of a northbound horse. This is almost if not worse then office politics. I would think we get enough of that in the daily day to day grind.

So, in this thread, we found note takers on particular things said or done that could be of use later on when things get ugly. Accusations and innuendo put on the table. Old wounds reopened for no good reason other then to prove a point (refer back to note takers). Very much like a typical thread that got us here to begin with. However, being LEADING members of this forum as your are, you ALL have a responsiblity to act like a leading members. In some much as your actions, written word and demeanor are scrutinized and combed through. Not by just other modders but the innocent bystanders known as community members. So, typical response like, 'been there done that' to a mod seems like a great post to you, think again. No really, think again. Why not an 'atta boy'? I refer back to this thread once again:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=138507

Perfect example of how it should go. It is up to us to be the bigger person, work with others and keep a level playing field. If at a particular time you find you can not be the bigger person, log off and come back later when your head is on straight. What is it that makes this so hard to understand?

[ReallyDedPoet]

According to Suicide Charlie, we are ALL are a bunch of idiots and are displaying the idiocy quite well. Unfortunate for us, he is 100% correct.

And he is from that silent majority here that goes about his\her business and does not get caught up in the drama :yep:


RDP

[AVGWarhawk]

According to Suicide Charlie, we are ALL are a bunch of idiots and are displaying the idiocy quite well. Unfortunate for us, he is 100% correct.

And he is from that silent majority here that goes about his\her business and does not get caught up in the drama :yep:


RDP

Sometimes your best source of information is the guy looking in and not those already inside. They have a tendency to see the big picture or the forest for the trees. ;)

[Mush Martin]

@HunterICX

:up::up::up::up:

[ReallyDedPoet]

According to Suicide Charlie, we are ALL are a bunch of idiots and are displaying the idiocy quite well. Unfortunate for us, he is 100% correct.
And he is from that silent majority here that goes about his\her business and does not get caught up in the drama :yep:


RDP
Sometimes your best source of information is the guy looking in and not those already inside. They have a tendency to see the big picture or the forest for the trees. ;)
Totally agree :up:, I asked this a few posts back, how the casual member here felt about what has been going on here, nice to see some posts from them :)

They speak with clarity and are direct to the point: decent responsible behavior from all will go a long way to solving much of this. Throw in the seperate forum for U-Boat Mods, and we may be on our way here. Those that don't get it after all of this never will, and don't belong at SUBSIM.


RDP

[raymond6751]

Just Stop it ! Everyone...go to your room.

[Dowly]

Just Stop it ! Everyone...go to your room.

I am in my room. :hmm: Should I go to kitchen instead? :p

[Mush Martin]

Put your pants on first and wash your hands:|\\

[Dowly]

:rotfl:

[Rockin Robbins]

You've used a poor example. Anvart was the first to point out that prop fix was already documented.
I stand by my statement, easily checked by anyone........The perpetrators of rapacious behavior provided a good example of predation.
You stand by it, while I ask everyone to check for themselves and decide. Here it is:http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=138212&page=2 the fun starts on pg2.

The facts are there.

While this post is not in the spirit of this thread it does highlight another point we have made here. You posted this http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=894935&postcount=98 and accused, openly, of GWX using pack tactics to derail the thread, prompting a reply that needed to bring to the attention of other members the untruth contained within. Again, thank you for proving another valid issue the GWX team has, we react when needed, we do not attack without provocation, whereas you seem content to continue to bring assumed GWX behaviour to this thread.

EDIT - @ AVG

Typing as you posted, sorry. I have made my point and will cease discussion of this issue as I think it has been resolved adequately.

I stand by those statements too, and thank you for posting the link so others can see the definition of rapacious behavior for themselves. You realize that you are not required to testify against yourself?:rotfl:

[Rockin Robbins]

And watch...watch how this post is reacted to. That will also demonstrate the problem here.
A very nice bait MONOLITH, Your post is not helping the situation. You even realise it with that final line! Yet hit the post button anyway. Also your quotes are very very selective too. Totally ignoring circumstances prior that led to said quotes.

Also, you make us to be the villain... you are not snow white either... Here is the prime example of what I have been talking about all along and your post proves it, just as you're ready to walk away somebody comes along turns you round and wallops you again. You are here placing all blame squarely on GWX's doorstep... its not happening sir... Its not fair, or justified.

You don't like the GWX team... we get it. That's fine... can't say it bothers me much at this moment because you have tried to stir up trouble in our ranks... you failed miserably but you still tried.

This "one group" don't need to be mystic to know who you mean. GWX... You see what you want to see. You don't like GWX so you stand against us and attempt to discredit the team... it is NOT all our fault, and I refuse point blank to be broadly accused of that by you given your past history against GWX.
Sorry Penelope, but I have to use your post against you. Your post is a list of conclusions. There is no information there that contributes to an understanding. Characterization, inuendo, unsupported conclusions, name calling (which you don't use here but is often used), accusation. None of that is in MONOLITH'S post. He presents a reasoned argument. None of the above list is sufficient to replace logic and evidence.

I'm not saying that logic and evidence doesn't exist. All I'm saying is that by not supporting your conclusions, you yield the point to MONOLITH with about an 8-0 score. It is the same with Ducimus' and KL's posts quoted in MONOLITH's post. He presented evidence of how Ducimus, who crosses the line of decency frequently, but did not do so here, presented a reasoned position. KL, as he frequently does, in spite of his real and great abilities, responded with a personal insult. By doing so, he surrendered the field to Ducimus, in effect, agreeing that Ducimus is right.

In reply to my post about the same thread, danlisa responded properly, with evidence, links and then his conclusion. But he left it up to anyone to check the link and see that his conclusions do not follow the evidence, so I thank him. THAT is true argument, which must always be bolstered by facts. It also allows the reader to check the facts and decide for themselves if the conclusion is a logical construction from the facts.

It's a shame that we can't shake ourselves for the ignorance that argument and insult are synonymous. Even when I "attacked" A_____ I used nothing but facts and easily checked examples as weapons. If you're right, that is all that is necessary. Using characterization, innuendo, unsupported conclusions, name calling and accusation is an admission that you have nothing real to support your position and the other person is perfectly correct.

Now don't take this as a personal attack, Penelope. I like you and you know it. We've teamed up a couple of times trying to talk sense to people with U-Boat problems. And I'm not a Fleet Boat only guy. Since the release of SH4UBM I've spent more time in the U-Boat than the Fleet Boat and had just as much fun there, posting extensively about that.

[Jimbuna]

Very nice folks. I have awoken to find this thread has not grown into 16 pages of mud wrestling. We are making some headway. So, we find we can say forget about it, not worth it, lets move on to something else that does some good. Monolith and Penelope, rest your cases now. According to Suicide Charlie, we are ALL are a bunch of idiots and are displaying the idiocy quite well. Unfortunate for us, he is 100% correct. So, to rehash yesterdays notes (omitting the uglies):

1) A separate uboat mod forum would help bolster harmony amongst the ranks.
Everyone would have their theater of choice to run and play in with impunity
and without fear of reprisal.

2) A moderator (impartial) is needed for this forum. Finding a impartial moderator
might prove to be a impossiblity and propably not needed because point #1
that will bolster harmony will not require this moderator to use the moderating
tools available. Point #3 as a backup if point #1 fails to deliver as promised.

3) For those that do attempt to jump the fence only to pull the switches and
press the wrong buttons (ie covert operations) can and will be subject to
brig time as little as 24 hours but possibly up to 30 days. I suspect the 24 hour function
to be used first to stop the offender and Neal as the final say as to how
the sanction will last.

These are the ideas thrown out there thus far. Without continuance of throwing mud, would anyone would like to interject another point or action to ponder please do so. Although these three plans of action look good, in reality, it is a shame that it has to come to this juncture. More often then not, we find those that rub us the wrong way for one particular instance on the forum, intentional or not, are just as normal as the next guy/gal. Someone you could really get along with and probably with minimal effort on your part. Everyone here is good natured, creative and highly competative. All good quailities to be sure. However, the highly competative nature is what gets us in trouble. Ask Tonya Harding what highly competative nature can do to a person. Ask Nancy Kerigan how her knee is feeling. The follow in a nut shell is Tonya's and Nancy sorted story:


Tonya Harding arranged an attack on Nancy Kerrigan during the 1994 US Championships. She never made it to the Olympics, she was kicked out of skating for it. Tonya was jealous of Nancy because at the time Nancy was America's sweetheart in the skating competitions. Tonya thought she would have a better shot at things with her gone...


This is all that is going on here folks. Kind of strange is it not? How can I belittle someone, what can I do to have another fall from grace, what bystander is going to be my target of opportunity? And for what, superiority, glory, my goodies are better then your goodies, if you do not play the way I want you too I'm taking my football and going home? If you look at all of this in this light, it is quite silly. So, the highly competative nature found here has gotten to the better of us. This has resulted in distrust, chasing away others with potential to add, diminished our standing as a great forum to visit regularly, generated undue stress for some folks, stifled creativity and generally made us all look like the south end of a northbound horse. This is almost if not worse then office politics. I would think we get enough of that in the daily day to day grind.

So, in this thread, we found note takers on particular things said or done that could be of use later on when things get ugly. Accusations and innuendo put on the table. Old wounds reopened for no good reason other then to prove a point (refer back to note takers). Very much like a typical thread that got us here to begin with. However, being LEADING members of this forum as your are, you ALL have a responsiblity to act like a leading members. In some much as your actions, written word and demeanor are scrutinized and combed through. Not by just other modders but the innocent bystanders known as community members. So, typical response like, 'been there done that' to a mod seems like a great post to you, think again. No really, think again. Why not an 'atta boy'? I refer back to this thread once again:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=138507

Perfect example of how it should go. It is up to us to be the bigger person, work with others and keep a level playing field. If at a particular time you find you can not be the bigger person, log off and come back later when your head is on straight. What is it that makes this so hard to understand?

I don't think your grasping/addressing one of the fundamental problems/concerns here.

Impartiality, accountability and credibility are paramount in a growing number of peoples minds here.

If there is to be a separate forum, eventually.....people will expect a level playing field. One that is open, transparent and equitable to all.

You make reference 2) to how in your opinion Finding a impartial moderator
might prove to be a impossiblity

Now your getting closer to the crux of the matter, to the perceptions of people as to what is a major problem now, as long as the status quo is maintained.

It's all well and good papering over the cracks 'again' and watching the ensuing identical problems resurface again.

It's all very well offering solutions and inviting open and honest debate in the hope YOU'VE MAGICED UP A SOLUTION BEFORE NEALS RETURN.

IMO.....you are part of the problem and therefore part of the solution.

DO NOT THINK I DISCOUNT MYSELF EITHER

If there is no possibility of a so called impartial moderator for a separate ATO forum, then I should imagine the GW would settle for something similar to what we have at present.

We are all 'guilty by association' to one extent or another.

Shouldn't be a problem if the respective individuals stick to their own patch.

I thank the Lord that Neal has the final say.

[John Channing]

I'll now add Psychic to my resume.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=893716&postcount=23

Is that what you meant by ugly?

Pffffft....

Nothing ugly or even new here. Just the same old same old by the same old same old. Only difference here is that it is ,for the moment, officially sanctioned.

JCC

[MONOLITH]

To John Channing and AVG;


John, in terms of 'no one complaining'; Neal will confirm that several people throughout the past have gone directly to him to discuss the posting style of certain individuals, and his instructions to you guys as far as moderating style and abilities. Him and I have spoken about it several times. Up until now, no action was really taken however, to really change anything. That's not a complaint actually, just an honest look at history. And I do understand what Neal was attempting to create.

You said something to me in your PM last night, that I appreciate very much and touches my heart. I return the sentiment to you.



AVG, you will recall the night I sat and watched a particular member repeatedly and openly attack you, and purposely violate every rule of decent behavior possible. Neal eventually dealt with it, but during that event, for an entire evening of publically viewed nightmare, you didn't even have the ability to stop what was happening.



Without speaking to any other member here, without pointing fingers at other members, etc etc, here are some simple facts I think are extremely relevent and important;


1. I have been both an administrator and a moderator of several large and well known gaming sites for almost a decade now. I have seen all of this from both sides. In every case, strong moderation and application of fair rules is the only way to not have a public forum be a wild west free for all. And having a staff that tightly controls the public appearance of a website, does not mean it becomes a 'no fun, censorship' type place. It simply means that to an outsider, it appears that the staff is shown respect by it's members, the members control themselves and show respect to each other, and no visitors and potential members have to see any nonsense like witnessed in this thread, because it doesn't exist.

2. The staff here, is frequently challenged and disrespected, publically and openly. The title of moderator has almost been rendered meaningless. That's unacceptable. For one, Neal should not create such a situation where the people he depends on to keep the peace, are powerless and disrespected. It's not fair to you guys to be put in that situation, it hurts the website, and it creates this lawless atmosphere. It is a direct result of people being allowed to post in improper ways, without repercussion.

3. Forum members here are not required to be respectful of one another. If they want to publically crap on someone, it's allowed to stand. One small bit of bad behavior, encourages others to follow suit, and without strong moderation, it escalates out of control.

4. I cannot believe the concept of "impartial moderator" needs to be discussed, or that the very staff here is openly admitting it's moderators may not be impartial. Impartiality does not come into play, if the forum rules are simply enforced. If someone makes an improper post, it simply gets deleted by a moderator, because that's the rule, not because of the moderator being on someone's side or not.


I invite you guys, or anyone else who cares, to spend a few minutes looking around a forum I currently moderate. We have a very simple concept; members respect each other, flaming and disruptive behavior is simply not allowed. Anyone who doesn't want to contribute productively to the community is quickly dealt with. If some bull**** breaks out, it's not left there in the public eye to sour the public perception of the site; it's quickly removed by moderators, and the offenders PM'd why.

Yes, we have had to weed out and ban a few people. But the end result is brilliant. We have a growing community of gamers dedicated to a specifc game/studio, who all contribute positively, and who enjoy being there because they know it's a "flame free" zone. Our own Elanaiba is even a member there.

The staff is never disrespected, the website is never disrespected, all because any bull**** is quickly cleaned up and the offender dealt with. Sure, the offenders aren't happy, but the rest of the majority is, because they know they can go there and just enjoy the game stuff they want to, and not have to worry about any of the sort of BS that goes on here. What you will see in there, is a tight friendly group all contributing positively to a common cause, and once you achieve that, they actually begion to police themselves, because the existing members will not tolerate anyone ruining the atmosphere.

You will never, ever see "Oh shut up you stupid moron" left in public to spoil the place.

The forum is in here... www.BlackfootStudios.com (http://www.BlackfootStudios.com)


Summarizing;

Rules of good posting ettiquette are not enforced here. Thus members openly attack each other, and even attack the staff here. It creates a horribly negative atmosphere.

The moderators have to be given the power to put an instant stop to nonsense, and they must use it.

We have a long history here of several groups who will not only flame each other, but will openly travel in packs like a street gang and all join in for the attacks and to keep the **** going. This has to be stopped. The first post that is clearly a violation, has to be removed, and the offender PM'd a warning. Repeated warnings mean a temporary posting ban.

This includes the sneaky posts that, while not openly offensive, are clearly designed to antagonize someone and illicit a response that will start trouble. The staff has to clearly recognize when something posted in a thread is not contributing to the discussion, but only going to derail it, and relocate it or remove it. That's the entire purpose of forum moderation.

There are many here, who will just barely skirt the rules, say just enough to not 'be against the rules', but are clearly looking to 'oneup' someone. That only causes problems. The cure is to not allow that to remain in the public eye to grow. The moderators here have to recognize what's really occurring, remove the post, and tell the offenders to take it to PM's if they need to continue their issue.




Here's the most important part:

You are never going to remove the modders jealously and competition that exists here.

BUT.... if you control what is publically posted, if you stop one team from publically antagonizing and trying to 'oneup' the other, you will stop all this nonsense that you created this thread to discuss.



I know you can do it. You just need to be given the right tools, and the courage and wisdom to use them.

Best of luck. You know how to reach me.


Thanks again John. :yep:

[John Channing]

find this thread has not grown into 16 pages of mud You make reference 2) to how in your opinion Finding a impartial moderator
might prove to be a impossiblity



This actually made me laugh out loud.

From the GWX side of the court…


"Moderators like Channing there, and AVG, need to look at the action as much as you do the reaction. The reaction occurs because you don't handle the actions... you (The moderators.) want to blame others for things getting out of hand? ok... but the phrase passing the buck comes to mind. You lot are involved in this too."


(I just love it when people refer to me by my last name. Makes me all tingly inside.)


"Where were the moderators then when they (Ducimus and other fleet enthusiasts) started to get heavy with him? Its the most recent and best example of poor and one sided moderation."



"Like I've already said, moderators need to be more on the ball, stamp out the baiting and name calling before it gets out of control. "



"but I believe there is reasonable potential for a certain element of doubt when you consider that one of your good selves is a moderator on a certain forum that is seriously anti U-boat."


And from the SH4 side of the court…


"This has been about one group breaking every single forum ettiquette rule we could write, and being allowed to get away with it."


"Better moderation."

"The problem here is, certain individuals have been given carte blanche to act anyway they please. That needs to change."


I seem to remember an old adage about how, if both sides of a disagreement are mad at you, then you are probably getting it right.

JCC

[AVGWarhawk]

Very nice folks. I have awoken to find this thread has not grown into 16 pages of mud wrestling. We are making some headway. So, we find we can say forget about it, not worth it, lets move on to something else that does some good. Monolith and Penelope, rest your cases now. According to Suicide Charlie, we are ALL are a bunch of idiots and are displaying the idiocy quite well. Unfortunate for us, he is 100% correct. So, to rehash yesterdays notes (omitting the uglies):

1) A separate uboat mod forum would help bolster harmony amongst the ranks.
Everyone would have their theater of choice to run and play in with impunity
and without fear of reprisal.

2) A moderator (impartial) is needed for this forum. Finding a impartial moderator
might prove to be a impossiblity and propably not needed because point #1
that will bolster harmony will not require this moderator to use the moderating
tools available. Point #3 as a backup if point #1 fails to deliver as promised.

3) For those that do attempt to jump the fence only to pull the switches and
press the wrong buttons (ie covert operations) can and will be subject to
brig time as little as 24 hours but possibly up to 30 days. I suspect the 24 hour function
to be used first to stop the offender and Neal as the final say as to how
the sanction will last.

These are the ideas thrown out there thus far. Without continuance of throwing mud, would anyone would like to interject another point or action to ponder please do so. Although these three plans of action look good, in reality, it is a shame that it has to come to this juncture. More often then not, we find those that rub us the wrong way for one particular instance on the forum, intentional or not, are just as normal as the next guy/gal. Someone you could really get along with and probably with minimal effort on your part. Everyone here is good natured, creative and highly competative. All good quailities to be sure. However, the highly competative nature is what gets us in trouble. Ask Tonya Harding what highly competative nature can do to a person. Ask Nancy Kerigan how her knee is feeling. The follow in a nut shell is Tonya's and Nancy sorted story:


Tonya Harding arranged an attack on Nancy Kerrigan during the 1994 US Championships. She never made it to the Olympics, she was kicked out of skating for it. Tonya was jealous of Nancy because at the time Nancy was America's sweetheart in the skating competitions. Tonya thought she would have a better shot at things with her gone...


This is all that is going on here folks. Kind of strange is it not? How can I belittle someone, what can I do to have another fall from grace, what bystander is going to be my target of opportunity? And for what, superiority, glory, my goodies are better then your goodies, if you do not play the way I want you too I'm taking my football and going home? If you look at all of this in this light, it is quite silly. So, the highly competative nature found here has gotten to the better of us. This has resulted in distrust, chasing away others with potential to add, diminished our standing as a great forum to visit regularly, generated undue stress for some folks, stifled creativity and generally made us all look like the south end of a northbound horse. This is almost if not worse then office politics. I would think we get enough of that in the daily day to day grind.

So, in this thread, we found note takers on particular things said or done that could be of use later on when things get ugly. Accusations and innuendo put on the table. Old wounds reopened for no good reason other then to prove a point (refer back to note takers). Very much like a typical thread that got us here to begin with. However, being LEADING members of this forum as your are, you ALL have a responsiblity to act like a leading members. In some much as your actions, written word and demeanor are scrutinized and combed through. Not by just other modders but the innocent bystanders known as community members. So, typical response like, 'been there done that' to a mod seems like a great post to you, think again. No really, think again. Why not an 'atta boy'? I refer back to this thread once again:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=138507

Perfect example of how it should go. It is up to us to be the bigger person, work with others and keep a level playing field. If at a particular time you find you can not be the bigger person, log off and come back later when your head is on straight. What is it that makes this so hard to understand?

I don't think your grasping/addressing one of the fundamental problems/concerns here.

Impartiality, accountability and credibility are paramount in a growing number of peoples minds here.

If there is to be a separate forum, eventually.....people will expect a level playing field. One that is open, transparent and equitable to all.

You make reference 2) to how in your opinion Finding a impartial moderator
might prove to be a impossiblity

Now your getting closer to the crux of the matter, to the perceptions of people as to what is a major problem now, as long as the status quo is maintained.

It's all well and good papering over the cracks 'again' and watching the ensuing identical problems resurface again.

It's all very well offering solutions and inviting open and honest debate in the hope YOU'VE MAGICED UP A SOLUTION BEFORE NEALS RETURN.

IMO.....you are part of the problem and therefore part of the solution.

DO NOT THINK I DISCOUNT MYSELF EITHER

If there is no possibility of a so called impartial moderator for a separate ATO forum, then I should imagine the GW would settle for something similar to what we have at present.

We are all 'guilty by association' to one extent or another.

Shouldn't be a problem if the respective individuals stick to their own patch.

I thank the Lord that Neal has the final say.




Jim, it has been really swell talking with you and enjoying Subsim. Thank the Lord that Neal not only has the final say, but I can thank the Lord there are other things to do in life other then moderate SS. Think what you like, see the forest for the trees, enjoy your life. As you so aptly point out that I'm part of the problem so to are you and the rest of the gang. I see you did not discount yourself on that matter. Magic up what you like. We are not curing cancer here. We are playing a submarine game. I only was looking for a solution, you continue to look for problems. You are glad Neal has the final say, of course he does and has asked for ideas in this thread. What have you provided other then more mud with others adding to it? Not much. It is plain to see you feel I'm the thorn in the side. Go ahead, rest it all my shoulders. Not a problem. What does it really matter in the end? Absolutely nothing. The best part about guilt by association is you can find other associates. That is what I plan on doing. There Jim, one of your problems solved. Enjoy.

[Dowly]

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee274/Finnish_Ferret/OhtheDrama3.jpg

[Rockin Robbins]

If all the crew at Ducimus's forum all wore the same sig would they all be lumped in together ?
Doubt it
Ducimus doesn't have a forum. The SH4 Modders' Forum, http://forum.kickinbak.com/index.php is a forum owned by swdw for SH4 modders, primarily Fleet Boat modders, although lurker_hlb3 also maintains the Operation Monsun series for U-Boats out of the same forum.

It is a public forum. Some Subsim members post the link as part of their signature with every post they make. We invite every Subsim member to drop by for a visit and talk to the vast array of talented modders who congregate there. By the way, no modders have left Subsim and none have any plans to.

Ducimus is a late-comer to that forum, having come to work with the RFB team to make both mods better. As abrasive as Ducimus is, somewhere in that crusty and provocative personna is one who really does practice what he preaches. Instead of fighting for dominance in Fleet Boat modding, he is working with the RFB Team to make both mods and SH4 the best it can be.

It was the RFB Team who convinced Ducimus to produce the patch that in effect turns TMO off so you can play the U-Boat with TMO still installed. It was Ducimus who did some of the great RFB interior work. That is the coopetition (Darrell Waltrip word there:up:) that has made the SH4 modding community the great place it is. It is the ingredient that has been missing so far from the SH3 modders' world, which has unfortunately been a theater of oneupsmanship. Maybe that will change, but there are plenty of examples, the attempted supression of OLC GUI, the reverse engineering of NYGM to take the ship damage model without asking the NYGM modding crew. Sorry, but I'm on record as saying you should support your conclusions with facts and that cuts both ways.

Nobody at Kickinbak advocates desertion of Subsim at all. I'd consider it a support forum, providing the predominately Fleet Boat modding discussion group that Subsim has chosen not to provide and reducing friction here. Certainly pressure has been put on certain people not to be as incendiary here.

Visit http://forum.kickinbak.com/index.php. Read the posts. See what goes on there. Decide for yourself if it is Ducimus' secret conspiracy, or whether he is just a member. You will see some posts by some members who have no taste for U-Boats whatever, and some comments that the proper place for a U-Boat is on the bottom of the ocean in many pieces. I guess that's somewhat predictable. But you'll also see enthusiasm for U-Boats and the some of the best SH4 U-Boat work performed so far in Operation Monsun. You might see my posts saying that GWX is nothing to worry about, modders at Kickinbak should make the best mods and let people sort it out for themselves. I encourage them not to quit because of perceived animosity, but to continue producing great stuff. That's no attack on GWX because they too benefit by having to do their best instead of resting on their laurels after every other mod quits and leave the field to GWX alone. The evidence there will show who is fabricating by innuendo and where the truth lies.

@Jimbuna: Finding an impartial moderator might be impossible???? How about reallydeadpoet? How about Hunter? What's wrong with John Channing? In any event, what's wrong with the moderator of the U-Boat group being partial to U-Boats and the moderator of the Fleet Boats being partial to Fleet Boats? I would expect to be in a U-Boat culture and act accordingly in their group, or what's an identity for? In that context it would be a GOOD thing. Much of the conflict here is just people with an exclusive enthusiasm. They lose their cool in a discussion and start swapping insults. That shouldn't happen too much in a more monolithic group.

I personally like fleet boats a bit better, but have had a blast in U-Boats also. I'd expect to spend time in both forums, respecting the culture of each, being glad that Neal saw fit to reconfigure his domain to reflect the most effective way to promote harmony.

[Dowly]

It is a public forum. Some Subsim members post the link as part of their signature with every post they make. We invite every Subsim member to drop by for a visit and talk to the vast array of talented modders who congregate there.

Actually, both of my email addresses I use have been banned from kickinbak. This' the open and helpfull SHIV community you all are talking of? :roll:

[_Seth_]

:nope: And this is really the way you folks think it should be...?

[ReallyDedPoet]

We are not curing cancer here. We are playing a submarine game. I only was looking for a solution, you continue to look for problems. You are glad Neal has the final say, of course he does and has asked for ideas in this thread. What have you provided other then more mud with others adding to it? Not much. It is plain to see you feel I'm the thorn in the side. Go ahead, rest it all my shoulders. Not a problem. What does it really matter in the end? Absolutely nothing. The best part about guilt by association is you can find other associates. That is what I plan on doing. There Jim, one of your problems solved. Enjoy.
Now this does not need to happen, and it's not drama, but a dam shame is this guy goes, period. AVG needs no defending, but I have seen enough. As he has mentioned on more than one occasion in this thread, it a process here that is being worked through, he has the jewels to say that it is a struggle to remain impartial here ( plus offer solutions ) and it is thrown back at him like this, I can second that it is a struggle. We are members to, there are games we like and some not as much, same goes for members, but we do our best when it comes time to Moderate, to be respectful and decent when participating, both as a member and a moderator, is it an exact science, double no, but we sure as heck try to keep things on the rails here. Neal created this thread and is doing his part, Moderators are trying to do the same. Members need to step up here and be part of the solution.

AVG is right, we are not curing cancer here, it's a game. And if he goes, folks in this thread need to take a long look in the mirror and perhaps do the same.


RDP

[Takeda Shingen]

The way I see it there is one problem. The problem is that party X cannot get along with party Y and vice versa. Any other perceived problem, whether it be 'jumping the fence', veiled insults, moderation, signatures or what have you, are simply symptoms of this problem. It seems to me that everyone wants to talk about the symptoms, and no one wants to discuss the problem. So, we're complaining about the smoke in the room while the house burns down.

Everybody wants to be right here. Everybody wants what they want, but no one is getting anything that they want by going about things in the manner that they are currently going about it. Through the past many pages we have learned one thing for certain: Hostility is not getting anyone anywhere. It is not what you say, but how it is said. The other side will be far more sympathetic with a kind phrase. They'll get what they want. You'll get what you want, but constantly rehashing the fact that you think that you were wronged is not making that wrong right. I'll also bet that it's not making you feel any better either.

Sure, you're all mad. Everyone knows that you're mad. What we need is someone to be the bigger person, put down the stick and reach out their hand. You don't have to love the other person. You just have to be heroic enough to get along. So, say something constructive. You may find that the other party's wants are more conducive to your's than you may have thought.

[Rockin Robbins]

:nope: And this is really the way you folks think it should be...?
Can you elaborate so we can all benefit? Love your signature. Who says SH3 is yesterday's sim? That's awesome!

@Dowly, I don't know the circumstances from your banning from Kickinback. I am no more in charge there than here. Maybe they can explain their reasoning. In any event, there are people banned from Subsim as well and we don't use that as ammunition to discredit Subsim. Owners of web sites have the same perogative as talk show hosts to admit and deny who they will without needing to justify their decision. It's one of those bad situations where the cure would be more unjust than the problem.

@AVG I know you're discouraged, but don't lose heart here. That's Ducimus and KL's exclusive realm.:rotfl:And they're both terminally addicted also, so we will continue hear from them no matter how many times they "resign." Has anyone ever reflected how alike those two personalities are, in spite of their differering organizational styles with KL being a team builder and Ducimus the lone wolf?:hmm: It's a reenactment of the Star Trek episode where the two brothers are condemned to fight forever to keep the universe from ripping apart.:rotfl:Two's company, three's a crowd. And they can handle the job right well.

I nominate AVG as a moderator of the fleet boat modding forum, if it materializes.

[danlisa]

Here's my step in the right direction:

A separate ATO forum - Moderated by either Hitman or Takeda Shingen.

Meaning no disrespect to any other moderator here but IMHO, the two gentleman above act decisively, swiftly and always act impartially. If availablity/coverage/timezones mean that there are times when the section maybe unmodderated then another solution may need to be found.

I nominate AVG as a moderator of the fleet boat modding forum, if it materializes.

Why does that not surprise me? AVG is a moderator and active participant on the kickinback forum, he also has a vested interest & personal content in the mods being developed in that forum, so he would be a nice choice to have in a PTO camp. Again, I return to the requirement of moderators being impartrial with no chance of their motives being called into question.

[Dowly]

@Dowly, I don't know the circumstances from your banning from Kickinback. I am no more in charge there than here. Maybe they can explain their reasoning. In any event, there are people banned from Subsim as well and we don't use that as ammunition to discredit Subsim. Owners of web sites have the same perogative as talk show hosts to admit and deny who they will without needing to justify their decision. It's one of those bad situations where the cure would be more unjust than the problem.

Yes, I am aware of that you cant do anything about it. And I am in no way trying to discredit kickingbak. But what I find funny is that I see you guys praising the openness of SHIV community, yet I have been banned from a SHIV modding forum without me ever even being there. :p And BOTH my emails! Someone's taken his/her time to find the other email addy as I havent used that one in ages. ;)

But no worries, I dont have any rush to register there atm. ;)

[MONOLITH]

RR's post is spot on.

And this...

That is the coopetition (Darrell Waltrip word there:up:) that has made the SH4 modding community the great place it is. It is the ingredient that has been missing so far from the SH3 modders' world, which has unfortunately been a theater of oneupsmanship. Maybe that will change, but there are plenty of examples, the attempted supression of OLC GUI, the reverse engineering of NYGM to take the ship damage model without asking the NYGM modding crew. Sorry, but I'm on record as saying you should support your conclusions with facts and that cuts both ways.


I believe is really the heart of the matter.

This has never, imo, been about who like u-boats vs who likes PTO. It has been about the SH4 modding community not wanting what is described above, to move from SH3 to SH4.

And the closer that came, the more hostile the environment in SH4 became.

I'm not sure I understand the need to seperate communities, when it's the behaviors, not the geographies, that is the problem.

[Dowly]

RR's post is spot on.

And this...

That is the coopetition (Darrell Waltrip word there:up:) that has made the SH4 modding community the great place it is. It is the ingredient that has been missing so far from the SH3 modders' world, which has unfortunately been a theater of oneupsmanship. Maybe that will change, but there are plenty of examples, the attempted supression of OLC GUI, the reverse engineering of NYGM to take the ship damage model without asking the NYGM modding crew. Sorry, but I'm on record as saying you should support your conclusions with facts and that cuts both ways.

I believe is really the heart of the matter.

This has never, imo, been about who like u-boats vs who likes PTO. It has been about the SH4 modding community not wanting what is described above, to move from SH3 to SH4.

And the closer that came, the more hostile the environment in SH4 became.

I'm not sure I understand the need to seperate communities, when it's the behaviors, not the geographies, that is the problem.

Then that'll be the SHIV guys' problem. If they dont want the SH3 community to mix with SHIV commmunity, go somewhere else. The last time I checked, Neal owns the site and calls the shots. You dont have the right to say who can come to the SHIV and who cant.

[lurker_hlb3]

It is a public forum. Some Subsim members post the link as part of their signature with every post they make. We invite every Subsim member to drop by for a visit and talk to the vast array of talented modders who congregate there.
Actually, both of my email addresses I use have been banned from kickinbak. This' the open and helpfull SHIV community you all are talking of? :roll:
I have moderator privileges at “kickinbak” so I can manage me campaign work.
Base on you “pubic profile” here at SS, you use hotmail.com for your emails. “ANY” email from hotmail.com is banned because of “spammers”; if you wish to join us then don’t us a “general” email account like hotmail.com.

As you can see we are not out to “BAN” you

[Dowly]

It is a public forum. Some Subsim members post the link as part of their signature with every post they make. We invite every Subsim member to drop by for a visit and talk to the vast array of talented modders who congregate there.
Actually, both of my email addresses I use have been banned from kickinbak. This' the open and helpfull SHIV community you all are talking of? :roll:
I have moderator privileges at “kickinbak” so I can manage me campaign work.
Base on you “pubic profile” here at SS you use hotmail.com for your emails. “ANY” email from hotmail.com is banned because of “spammers”; if you wish to join us then don’t us a “general” email account like hotmail.com.

As you can see we are not out to “BAN” you personnel

Is Gmail.com on the ban list aswell? That's the other account which is banned. But like I already said, worry not, I have no need to register atm. :up:

[TDK1044]

As much as this Forum might try to be all things to all people, it can't be. This is Neals's house. He sets the rules and selects the Moderators...not some small group of Drama Queens from the modding community who can't get along.

The vast majority of people here enjoy and respect subsim. If you don't, please feel free to leave.

[MONOLITH]

Then that'll be the SHIV guys' problem. If they dont want the SH3 community to mix with SHIV commmunity, go somewhere else. The last time I checked, Neal owns the site and calls the shots. You dont have the right to say who can come to the SHIV and who cant.


That's exactly right Dowly.

But they do have the right to protest unproductive behaviors. Including yours.

[Dowly]

Then that'll be the SHIV guys' problem. If they dont want the SH3 community to mix with SHIV commmunity, go somewhere else. The last time I checked, Neal owns the site and calls the shots. You dont have the right to say who can come to the SHIV and who cant.

That's exactly right Dowly.

But they do have the right to protest unproductive behaviors. Including yours.

Yes they have. Everyone also have the right to be unproductive if they so choose. :p

[lurker_hlb3]

It is a public forum. Some Subsim members post the link as part of their signature with every post they make. We invite every Subsim member to drop by for a visit and talk to the vast array of talented modders who congregate there.
Actually, both of my email addresses I use have been banned from kickinbak. This' the open and helpfull SHIV community you all are talking of? :roll:
I have moderator privileges at “kickinbak” so I can manage me campaign work.
Base on you “pubic profile” here at SS you use hotmail.com for your emails. “ANY” email from hotmail.com is banned because of “spammers”; if you wish to join us then don’t us a “general” email account like hotmail.com.

As you can see we are not out to “BAN” you personnel
Is Gmail.com on the ban list aswell? That's the other account which is banned. But like I already said, worry not, I have no need to register atm. :up:

Yes "ALL" general email accounts are banned.

[Takeda Shingen]

Then that'll be the SHIV guys' problem. If they dont want the SH3 community to mix with SHIV commmunity, go somewhere else. The last time I checked, Neal owns the site and calls the shots. You dont have the right to say who can come to the SHIV and who cant.

That's exactly right Dowly.

But they do have the right to protest unproductive behaviors. Including yours.

Yes they have. Everyone also have the right to be unproductive if they so choose. :p

Take it to PM, guys.

[_Seth_]

:nope: And this is really the way you folks think it should be...?
Can you elaborate so we can all benefit? Love your signature. Who says SH3 is yesterday's sim? That's awesome!


Thanks, mate, i love it too! :yep::up:
I'm thinking about the arguing,ranting and all the other negative things that have lead to the situation beeing like it is. People going mad at each other for things like "who did what" and "who said what". I wont go as far as naming names; that wont solve anything, but i believe everyone sees that this aint doing subsim any good. Subsim has been one of the most dedicated and professional forums on the web for a long time, and this is because of the members attitude and interest for the games they love to play. Developers and modders have done their best to make the games even better, and they have all contributed in making the games survive in the changing world of computer games. They are all credited for that job, no doubt, a job they have done on their spare time, maybe missing time to be with their friends and family. We as part of this community have shared ups and downs here, from the arrival of new members and mods, to the sad loss of fellow skippers and good friends. And i don''t want to see this forum loosing it's best quality because some folks have decided to make other people's life a misery. And deep inside me, i dont think any of you will either.

The truth is just as Takeda says; The problem is that party X cannot get along with party Y and vice versa. To me, thats fine. I have no problems understanding that noone has to like the other faction. But; Respect for the other opinion should always be present. And thats the core value; Respect for your fellow mateys. You can't ask for more than that.

[Dowly]

Then that'll be the SHIV guys' problem. If they dont want the SH3 community to mix with SHIV commmunity, go somewhere else. The last time I checked, Neal owns the site and calls the shots. You dont have the right to say who can come to the SHIV and who cant.

That's exactly right Dowly.

But they do have the right to protest unproductive behaviors. Including yours.
Yes they have. Everyone also have the right to be unproductive if they so choose. :p
Take it to PM, guys.

Why? What? When? :o

All I am saying is that if one doesnt want to share, for example, a tool he has made, for the community he doesnt have to. That what I meant by unproductive in my post. And the reasons why one wouldnt want to share his tool has already been mentioned, it might be so hard to understand/get to work by an outsider that it wouldnt be beneficial to release it.

Same goes for explaining something new, just think how much time it would take for [pick your supermod] to document and then explain everything that has been changed.

And at times the modder doesnt even necessarely know 100% what he did to get the end result. A good example being my IL2 mod that changes the fire particles of a burning aircraft to the ones IL2 uses as rocket's backfire. It was a classic case of trial and error and the process took so much time that I have no idea anymore what I exactly did to achieve the end result. :rotfl:

[Digital_Trucker]

Is Gmail.com on the ban list aswell? That's the other account which is banned. But like I already said, worry not, I have no need to register atm. :up:

As a matter of fact it is. When I tried to register, I was "banned" also, until I spoke to someone who made an exception for my address (which you evidently didn't attempt to do).

[Dowly]

Is Gmail.com on the ban list aswell? That's the other account which is banned. But like I already said, worry not, I have no need to register atm. :up:
As a matter of fact it is. When I tried to register, I was "banned" also, until I spoke to someone who made an exception for my address (which you evidently didn't attempt to do).

Actually I did PM AVG about it here at SubSim, who in return told me to contact Sam. But like I already said twice, I dont have an urge to register there atm. ;)

[CDR Resser]

I, personally, agree with the spirit of the petiton. We should all treat each other with the respect that we would require. It is too easy to forget that maxim in such an impersonal and anonymous format, such as this. I also know that we cannot change what has happened in the past, whatever that might be. All we can do now is resolve that the mistakes of the past will not be repeated in the future. If the petition helps people to take a second thought before they do, maybe it can be of some use.

/signed

Regret that it is necessary


Respectfully Submitted;
CDR Resser

[Takeda Shingen]

Why? What? When? :o

All I am saying is that if one doesnt want to share, for example, a tool he has made, for the community he doesnt have to. That what I meant by unproductive in my post. And the reasons why one wouldnt want to share his tool has already been mentioned, it might be so hard to understand/get to work by an outsider that it wouldnt be beneficial to release it.

Same goes for explaining something new, just think how much time it would take for [pick your supermod] to document and then explain everything that has been changed.

And at times the modder doesnt even necessarely know 100% what he did to get the end result. A good example being my IL2 mod that changes the fire particles of a burning aircraft to the ones IL2 uses as rocket's backfire. It was a classic case of trial and error and the process took so much time that I have no idea anymore what I exactly did to achieve the end result. :rotfl:

All good and well. Just remember, we're discussing what happens on SubSim.com, not kickinback.com, Politico.com, Somethingawful.com or theonion.com. Keep it on topic and put everything else in PM.

That should go for everyone, not just Dowly. Now let's go back to topic.

[Dowly]

Why? What? When? :o

All I am saying is that if one doesnt want to share, for example, a tool he has made, for the community he doesnt have to. That what I meant by unproductive in my post. And the reasons why one wouldnt want to share his tool has already been mentioned, it might be so hard to understand/get to work by an outsider that it wouldnt be beneficial to release it.

Same goes for explaining something new, just think how much time it would take for [pick your supermod] to document and then explain everything that has been changed.

And at times the modder doesnt even necessarely know 100% what he did to get the end result. A good example being my IL2 mod that changes the fire particles of a burning aircraft to the ones IL2 uses as rocket's backfire. It was a classic case of trial and error and the process took so much time that I have no idea anymore what I exactly did to achieve the end result. :rotfl:
All good and well. Just remember, we're discussing what happens on SubSim.com, not kickinback.com, Politico.com, Somethingawful.com or theonion.com. Keep it on topic and put everything else in PM.

That should go for everyone, not just Dowly. Now let's go back to topic.

We were talking about what happens in SubSim.com. ;) But sorry, if I made it look like something else. That wasnt my intention. Alles Klar. :up:

[Rockin Robbins]

Here's my step in the right direction:

A separate ATO forum - Moderated by either Hitman or Takeda Shingen.

Meaning no disrespect to any other moderator here but IMHO, the two gentleman above act decisively, swiftly and always act impartially. If availablity/coverage/timezones mean that there are times when the section maybe unmodderated then another solution may need to be found.

I nominate AVG as a moderator of the fleet boat modding forum, if it materializes.
Why does that not surprise me? AVG is a moderator and active participant on the kickinback forum, he also has a vested interest & personal content in the mods being developed in that forum, so he would be a nice choice to have in a PTO camp. Again, I return to the requirement of moderators being impartrial with no chance of their motives being called into question.

I'll sign on without reservation, except that I don't see any problem with the moderator of a forum being an enthusiast of that theater of war. After all, if the "nice fence" is done well, both cultures will be free to be themselves. If I visit the ATO forum, I will be expected to be be respectful to their culture and conduct myself as a citizen of the ATO. If I am in the PTO forum, the same would apply. Rules in both forums will be exercised in favor of the focus of that forum. A comment perfectly acceptable in the ATO forum might be totally offensive in the PTO forum. If a bunch of PTO "enthusiasts" jump the fence to the ATO forum and grouse about the comment, they should be dealt with as transgressors. Fair enough?

I expect that the two forums would have different modding conventions, with the ATO more of a corporate model and the PTO more of an open source, collaborative model. That should work to the good of both sides, Just as the co-existence of socialist and free market economies has worked for the betterment of both.

I believe the result will be harmony and a new flowering of mods for Silent Hunter 4 with great things for all theaters.

You do have a point about the usefulness of impartial moderators. Ducimus' first PTO after SH4UBM shut off the U-Boat. I think there has to be some kind of House-Senate conference to encourage non-exclusive mods that keep people from playing the other theater. When circumstances make that impossible, then JSGME installed patches like TMO has would allow you to switch quickly without undue trouble. And this conference should be moderators only, I think. Darn, there's that word should again!:shifty:

[Mikhayl]

On topic, it would be NICE to stop the usual BS "group X doesn't like group Y and vice versa". I'm more than happy to be part of one group, but I can say I definitely don't give a damn about the rest. I'm sure the same goes for a LOT of GWX members who barely if ever post on subsim. And yet we get insulted by some guys who have problems with INDIVIDUALS but who feel it's best to piss on a wide group of persons instead of dealing with their real problem, and THIS is annoying. :damn:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

RR's post is spot on.

And this...

That is the coopetition (Darrell Waltrip word there:up:) that has made the SH4 modding community the great place it is. It is the ingredient that has been missing so far from the SH3 modders' world, which has unfortunately been a theater of oneupsmanship. Maybe that will change, but there are plenty of examples, the attempted supression of OLC GUI, the reverse engineering of NYGM to take the ship damage model without asking the NYGM modding crew. Sorry, but I'm on record as saying you should support your conclusions with facts and that cuts both ways.


I believe is really the heart of the matter.

This has never, imo, been about who like u-boats vs who likes PTO. It has been about the SH4 modding community not wanting what is described above, to move from SH3 to SH4.

And the closer that came, the more hostile the environment in SH4 became.

I'm not sure I understand the need to seperate communities, when it's the behaviors, not the geographies, that is the problem.

Concerning the reverse engineering of the NYGM damage models... Prove it.

As of GWX 1.0, the damage models FOR GWX were designed from scratch, totally REMOVING and REPLACING the NYGM damage models.

Neither of you (Rockin Robbins and/or MONOLOTH) were present for the construction of the new GWX damage models and are therefore making accusations based on what someone else told you. Obviously, whoever you listened to certainly isn't concerned about the truth.

The truth of the matter is that OUR MODDERS constructed a tool that allows our damage modellers to adjust damage .zon files in 3D, and their parameters, AT WILL. This is something that the NYGM team never had. They did have a tool, but by the NYGM team's own admission, it was limited in capability.

You (RR and Monilith) demonstrate conversational cherry-picking and obviously intend to warp matters to suit your taste... as others are doing here.

While you are hunting for proof, I'll help you out a bit. Read pages 85-87 of the GWX manual. The GWX damage models were primarily designed/reworked from stock by Vonhelsching, with further adjustments occuring later by Ref and Privateer.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Addenda, to my previous post.... @RR, you make reference to a spat myself and OLC engaged in.

What you have conveniently chosen to overlook is that I made a public apology without any external prodding or prompting. He and I are on amicable terms and speak on teamspeak on occasion. Our original issues have been laid to rest.

More cherry-picking from you to warp/pervert things to what you want people to see.

[bigboywooly]

You do have a point about the usefulness of impartial moderators. Ducimus' first PTO after SH4UBM shut off the U-Boat. I think there has to be some kind of House-Senate conference to encourage non-exclusive mods that keep people from playing the other theater. When circumstances make that impossible, then JSGME installed patches like TMO has would allow you to switch quickly without undue trouble. And this conference should be moderators only, I think. Darn, there's that word should again!:shifty:

As previouly stated
GWX4 WILL break the US side of game
Nothing can be done about that
Too many shared files

GWX4 will NOT be JSGME compatable
GWX never is

Doesnt stop anybody from having multiple installs
Not rocket science

I have 3 SH4 installs at the moment including a GWX 4 one
JSGME had the habit of sometimes leaving files\folders behind which do cause issues

[Rockin Robbins]

To John Channing and AVG;


John, in terms of 'no one complaining'; Neal will confirm that several people throughout the past have gone directly to him to discuss the posting style of certain individuals, and his instructions to you guys as far as moderating style and abilities. Him and I have spoken about it several times. Up until now, no action was really taken however, to really change anything. That's not a complaint actually, just an honest look at history. And I do understand what Neal was attempting to create.

You said something to me in your PM last night, that I appreciate very much and touches my heart. I return the sentiment to you.



AVG, you will recall the night I sat and watched a particular member repeatedly and openly attack you, and purposely violate every rule of decent behavior possible. Neal eventually dealt with it, but during that event, for an entire evening of publically viewed nightmare, you didn't even have the ability to stop what was happening.



Without speaking to any other member here, without pointing fingers at other members, etc etc, here are some simple facts I think are extremely relevent and important;


1. I have been both an administrator and a moderator of several large and well known gaming sites for almost a decade now. I have seen all of this from both sides. In every case, strong moderation and application of fair rules is the only way to not have a public forum be a wild west free for all. And having a staff that tightly controls the public appearance of a website, does not mean it becomes a 'no fun, censorship' type place. It simply means that to an outsider, it appears that the staff is shown respect by it's members, the members control themselves and show respect to each other, and no visitors and potential members have to see any nonsense like witnessed in this thread, because it doesn't exist.

2. The staff here, is frequently challenged and disrespected, publically and openly. The title of moderator has almost been rendered meaningless. That's unacceptable. For one, Neal should not create such a situation where the people he depends on to keep the peace, are powerless and disrespected. It's not fair to you guys to be put in that situation, it hurts the website, and it creates this lawless atmosphere. It is a direct result of people being allowed to post in improper ways, without repercussion.

3. Forum members here are not required to be respectful of one another. If they want to publically crap on someone, it's allowed to stand. One small bit of bad behavior, encourages others to follow suit, and without strong moderation, it escalates out of control.

4. I cannot believe the concept of "impartial moderator" needs to be discussed, or that the very staff here is openly admitting it's moderators may not be impartial. Impartiality does not come into play, if the forum rules are simply enforced. If someone makes an improper post, it simply gets deleted by a moderator, because that's the rule, not because of the moderator being on someone's side or not.


I invite you guys, or anyone else who cares, to spend a few minutes looking around a forum I currently moderate. We have a very simple concept; members respect each other, flaming and disruptive behavior is simply not allowed. Anyone who doesn't want to contribute productively to the community is quickly dealt with. If some bull**** breaks out, it's not left there in the public eye to sour the public perception of the site; it's quickly removed by moderators, and the offenders PM'd why.

Yes, we have had to weed out and ban a few people. But the end result is brilliant. We have a growing community of gamers dedicated to a specifc game/studio, who all contribute positively, and who enjoy being there because they know it's a "flame free" zone. Our own Elanaiba is even a member there.

The staff is never disrespected, the website is never disrespected, all because any bull**** is quickly cleaned up and the offender dealt with. Sure, the offenders aren't happy, but the rest of the majority is, because they know they can go there and just enjoy the game stuff they want to, and not have to worry about any of the sort of BS that goes on here. What you will see in there, is a tight friendly group all contributing positively to a common cause, and once you achieve that, they actually begion to police themselves, because the existing members will not tolerate anyone ruining the atmosphere.

You will never, ever see "Oh shut up you stupid moron" left in public to spoil the place.

The forum is in here... www.BlackfootStudios.com (http://www.BlackfootStudios.com)


Summarizing;

Rules of good posting ettiquette are not enforced here. Thus members openly attack each other, and even attack the staff here. It creates a horribly negative atmosphere.

The moderators have to be given the power to put an instant stop to nonsense, and they must use it.

We have a long history here of several groups who will not only flame each other, but will openly travel in packs like a street gang and all join in for the attacks and to keep the **** going. This has to be stopped. The first post that is clearly a violation, has to be removed, and the offender PM'd a warning. Repeated warnings mean a temporary posting ban.

This includes the sneaky posts that, while not openly offensive, are clearly designed to antagonize someone and illicit a response that will start trouble. The staff has to clearly recognize when something posted in a thread is not contributing to the discussion, but only going to derail it, and relocate it or remove it. That's the entire purpose of forum moderation.

There are many here, who will just barely skirt the rules, say just enough to not 'be against the rules', but are clearly looking to 'oneup' someone. That only causes problems. The cure is to not allow that to remain in the public eye to grow. The moderators here have to recognize what's really occurring, remove the post, and tell the offenders to take it to PM's if they need to continue their issue.




Here's the most important part:

You are never going to remove the modders jealously and competition that exists here.

BUT.... if you control what is publically posted, if you stop one team from publically antagonizing and trying to 'oneup' the other, you will stop all this nonsense that you created this thread to discuss.



I know you can do it. You just need to be given the right tools, and the courage and wisdom to use them.

Best of luck. You know how to reach me.


Thanks again John. :yep:

Kill the first petition! This is the REAL petition!:up::up::up::up::up::up::up::up:

[Rockin Robbins]

You do have a point about the usefulness of impartial moderators. Ducimus' first PTO after SH4UBM shut off the U-Boat. I think there has to be some kind of House-Senate conference to encourage non-exclusive mods that keep people from playing the other theater. When circumstances make that impossible, then JSGME installed patches like TMO has would allow you to switch quickly without undue trouble. And this conference should be moderators only, I think. Darn, there's that word should again!:shifty:
As previouly stated
GWX4 WILL break the US side of game
Nothing can be done about that
Too many shared files

GWX4 will NOT be JSGME compatable
GWX never is

Doesnt stop anybody from having multiple installs
Not rocket science

I have 3 SH4 installs at the moment including a GWX 4 one
JSGME had the habit of sometimes leaving files\folders behind which do cause issues

Damn, that's a Ducimus quote until we beat on him for awhile. When his will was broken suddenly this cute little patch appeared!:up:

How do I get this right? Hmmm. Ok, try #1: Never say anything never is!:rotfl: You guys are smarter than that.

[Takeda Shingen]

On topic, it would be NICE to stop the usual BS "group X doesn't like group Y and vice versa". I'm more than happy to be part of one group, but I can say I definitely don't give a damn about the rest. I'm sure the same goes for a LOT of GWX members who barely if ever post on subsim. And yet we get insulted by some guys who have problems with INDIVIDUALS but who feel it's best to piss on a wide group of persons instead of dealing with their real problem, and THIS is annoying. :damn:

Understood. No individual likes to be treated as a faceless member of a group. I apologize if I made you feel that way. On the flip side, I know that many other members have percieved the GWX team's response to conflicts and what-not as kind of a gang-tackling scheme. In their eyes, it is hard to seperate the individual from the group in that circumstance.

You, and many others, want to be treated as an individual. Others claim that so-called 'gang attacks' are uncalled for, and use this as a way to group you together. We have an impasse. What do you [globally] suggest for resolution?

[Digital_Trucker]

Is Gmail.com on the ban list aswell? That's the other account which is banned. But like I already said, worry not, I have no need to register atm. :up:
As a matter of fact it is. When I tried to register, I was "banned" also, until I spoke to someone who made an exception for my address (which you evidently didn't attempt to do).
Actually I did PM AVG about it here at SubSim, who in return told me to contact Sam. But like I already said twice, I dont have an urge to register there atm. ;)

Then why bring it up if it was inconsequential? You knew there was a problem and that contacting Sam could possibly solve that problem, yet you lambast someone and accuse them of excluding you? That's exactly the ATTITUDE that makes the petition necessary to begin with.

Why am I wasting my breath? RDP is right, a good look in the mirror is needed for us ALL.

[bigboywooly]

Very nice folks. I have awoken to find this thread has not grown into 16 pages of mud wrestling. We are making some headway. So, we find we can say forget about it, not worth it, lets move on to something else that does some good. Monolith and Penelope, rest your cases now. According to Suicide Charlie, we are ALL are a bunch of idiots and are displaying the idiocy quite well. Unfortunate for us, he is 100% correct. So, to rehash yesterdays notes (omitting the uglies):

1) A separate uboat mod forum would help bolster harmony amongst the ranks.
Everyone would have their theater of choice to run and play in with impunity
and without fear of reprisal.

2) A moderator (impartial) is needed for this forum. Finding a impartial moderator
might prove to be a impossiblity and propably not needed because point #1
that will bolster harmony will not require this moderator to use the moderating
tools available. Point #3 as a backup if point #1 fails to deliver as promised.

3) For those that do attempt to jump the fence only to pull the switches and
press the wrong buttons (ie covert operations) can and will be subject to
brig time as little as 24 hours but possibly up to 30 days. I suspect the 24 hour function
to be used first to stop the offender and Neal as the final say as to how
the sanction will last.

These are the ideas thrown out there thus far. Without continuance of throwing mud, would anyone would like to interject another point or action to ponder please do so. Although these three plans of action look good, in reality, it is a shame that it has to come to this juncture. More often then not, we find those that rub us the wrong way for one particular instance on the forum, intentional or not, are just as normal as the next guy/gal. Someone you could really get along with and probably with minimal effort on your part. Everyone here is good natured, creative and highly competative. All good quailities to be sure. However, the highly competative nature is what gets us in trouble. Ask Tonya Harding what highly competative nature can do to a person. Ask Nancy Kerigan how her knee is feeling. The follow in a nut shell is Tonya's and Nancy sorted story:


Tonya Harding arranged an attack on Nancy Kerrigan during the 1994 US Championships. She never made it to the Olympics, she was kicked out of skating for it. Tonya was jealous of Nancy because at the time Nancy was America's sweetheart in the skating competitions. Tonya thought she would have a better shot at things with her gone...


This is all that is going on here folks. Kind of strange is it not? How can I belittle someone, what can I do to have another fall from grace, what bystander is going to be my target of opportunity? And for what, superiority, glory, my goodies are better then your goodies, if you do not play the way I want you too I'm taking my football and going home? If you look at all of this in this light, it is quite silly. So, the highly competative nature found here has gotten to the better of us. This has resulted in distrust, chasing away others with potential to add, diminished our standing as a great forum to visit regularly, generated undue stress for some folks, stifled creativity and generally made us all look like the south end of a northbound horse. This is almost if not worse then office politics. I would think we get enough of that in the daily day to day grind.

So, in this thread, we found note takers on particular things said or done that could be of use later on when things get ugly. Accusations and innuendo put on the table. Old wounds reopened for no good reason other then to prove a point (refer back to note takers). Very much like a typical thread that got us here to begin with. However, being LEADING members of this forum as your are, you ALL have a responsiblity to act like a leading members. In some much as your actions, written word and demeanor are scrutinized and combed through. Not by just other modders but the innocent bystanders known as community members. So, typical response like, 'been there done that' to a mod seems like a great post to you, think again. No really, think again. Why not an 'atta boy'? I refer back to this thread once again:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=138507

Perfect example of how it should go. It is up to us to be the bigger person, work with others and keep a level playing field. If at a particular time you find you can not be the bigger person, log off and come back later when your head is on straight. What is it that makes this so hard to understand?

I don't think your grasping/addressing one of the fundamental problems/concerns here.

Impartiality, accountability and credibility are paramount in a growing number of peoples minds here.

If there is to be a separate forum, eventually.....people will expect a level playing field. One that is open, transparent and equitable to all.

You make reference 2) to how in your opinion Finding a impartial moderator
might prove to be a impossiblity

Now your getting closer to the crux of the matter, to the perceptions of people as to what is a major problem now, as long as the status quo is maintained.

It's all well and good papering over the cracks 'again' and watching the ensuing identical problems resurface again.

It's all very well offering solutions and inviting open and honest debate in the hope YOU'VE MAGICED UP A SOLUTION BEFORE NEALS RETURN.

IMO.....you are part of the problem and therefore part of the solution.

DO NOT THINK I DISCOUNT MYSELF EITHER

If there is no possibility of a so called impartial moderator for a separate ATO forum, then I should imagine the GW would settle for something similar to what we have at present.

We are all 'guilty by association' to one extent or another.

Shouldn't be a problem if the respective individuals stick to their own patch.

I thank the Lord that Neal has the final say.




Jim, it has been really swell talking with you and enjoying Subsim. Thank the Lord that Neal not only has the final say, but I can thank the Lord there are other things to do in life other then moderate SS. Think what you like, see the forest for the trees, enjoy your life. As you so aptly point out that I'm part of the problem so to are you and the rest of the gang. I see you did not discount yourself on that matter. Magic up what you like. We are not curing cancer here. We are playing a submarine game. I only was looking for a solution, you continue to look for problems. You are glad Neal has the final say, of course he does and has asked for ideas in this thread. What have you provided other then more mud with others adding to it? Not much. It is plain to see you feel I'm the thorn in the side. Go ahead, rest it all my shoulders. Not a problem. What does it really matter in the end? Absolutely nothing. The best part about guilt by association is you can find other associates. That is what I plan on doing. There Jim, one of your problems solved. Enjoy.

Now no need to retire AVG
I think Jimbuna is referring to the fact its hard to be impartial towards the uboat\GWX issue when you are a moderator at an SH4 fleet boat site and a beta tester too for the mods made there

As I told you before
When I was offered the chance to be a moderator in the SH3 forums I told Neal I was honoured and flattered BUT as I was a member of GWX and constructing the mod at that time I saw it as a potential conflict of interest
Therefore I had to decline

There are many who would have reacted to the conflict of interest
As is being shown now

If i was a moderator in the SH4mods forum and let GWX comments slide do you not think people would be attacking that ?

Lets get back on track eh

[Rockin Robbins]

I believe is really the heart of the matter.

This has never, imo, been about who like u-boats vs who likes PTO. It has been about the SH4 modding community not wanting what is described above, to move from SH3 to SH4.

And the closer that came, the more hostile the environment in SH4 became.

I'm not sure I understand the need to separate communities, when it's the behaviors, not the geographies, that is the problem.
Concerning the reverse engineering of the NYGM damage models... Prove it.
As of GWX 1.0, the damage models FOR GWX were designed from scratch, totally REMOVING and REPLACING the NYGM damage models.

Neither of you (Rockin Robbins and/or MONOLITH) were present for the construction of the new GWX damage models and are therefore making accusations based on what someone else told you. Obviously, whoever you listened to certainly isn't concerned about the truth.

Fair enough. I'm not the one who possessed the truth, which is contained in PMs between you and the modder responsible for the damage model. It wouldn't be fair to you or he if I trotted out what I have seen. That needs to be done by the two of you. All I can state without being out of line is that I have see evidence that appeared convincing at the time.


The truth of the matter is that OUR MODDERS constructed a tool that allows our damage modellers to adjust damage .zon files in 3D, and their parameters, AT WILL. This is something that the NYGM team never had. They did have a tool, but by the NYGM team's own admission, it was limited in capability.

You (RR and Monilith) demonstrate conversational cherry-picking and obviously intend to warp matters to suit your taste... as others are doing here.

While you are hunting for proof, I'll help you out a bit. Read pages 85-87 of the GWX manual. The GWX damage models were primarily designed/reworked from stock by Vonhelsching, with further adjustments occuring later by Ref and Privateer.
A fine counter-statement to what I have seen. Other GWX members, please notice how KL is focused and counters properly. He didn't call me names or make false insinuations. His group has a culture that I wouldn't choose for my own. That does not mean that it is not effective. It doesn't mean that it does not produce great mods. That does not mean that an organization like GW cannot be a good citizen of a modding community.

One unfortunate aspect of such an organization is that it becomes like a football team, with possibly Steve Spurrier "win at any cost" enthusiasm that can spill over into vindictiveness. Hey, their strength is their weakness. No greater tribute can be given to any man or organization than that. I admire what KL has done, even while I sometimes rail at the unfortunate consequences and protest the specific instances (which are isolated and KL has expressed regret in the OLC incident) where their team spirit has crossed the line.

That is why my "nice fence" solution would work great for all concerned. It would leave everyone free to pursue their own methods and preferrences.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

And no one should confuse the generous amount of tolerance and forbearance that has been shown up to now with they way things are going to be in the future.



Nice threat.

KL, this currently not a threat but a reality to the situation. It has come to that. However, this thread is not about possible sanction upon an individual or individuals who want to continue arguing over mods. We are looking for solutions to bring harmony between theaters. I think it is obtainable if all are willing. This is the goal. Not a continuation of hard feelings over past issues. I see from your post here you are not ready to come with a open mind over this debacle that has stewed for over two years. It has now come to boil. We need to work together to turn off the heat. Let us know when you are ready.

AVG_Warhawk, never pretend to know what is on my mind.

What you don't see is I am hoping for the best. If you think I enjoy flame wars, or that somehow CONSTANT DERISION from so many boosts my ego, then you yourself have a closed mind.

I will tell you what is on my mind. I am angry and I am calm... I am a stubborn Texan who will not be overrun by those who insult and threaten.

You have stated numerous times how tired you are of all matters relating to moderating... and how tired you are of the flame wars.

You have demonstrated complete willingness to shut down ATO related threads without any effort to actually moderate issues.

You no longer give a damn and that in itself is reason enough for you to step down.

You are biased against ATO matters and this is proof... your own speech/thoughts:

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f117/KptLehmann/AVGvsNeal.jpg

[Kpt. Lehmann]

RR, the quotes on your last post are screwed up.

[Mikhayl]

Hi Takeda, thanks, no problem I know you just summed the vision of a lot. For resolution, well, throw the insulting/disrespectful guys in the brig as soon as you catch them (I know you're not robots filtering subsim), no matter who the troll is, no matter the number of GB worth of mods he eventually released. A few days should be enough for anybody to think twice before posting rubbish the next time.
IMO that's the only solution proportionnal to the problem. There's hundreds of people browsing that single sub-forum at any hour of the day. Why try to go around a problem, changing things for hundreds of people on the way, when you can just remove the problem in one click ?

[Dowly]

Is Gmail.com on the ban list aswell? That's the other account which is banned. But like I already said, worry not, I have no need to register atm. :up:
As a matter of fact it is. When I tried to register, I was "banned" also, until I spoke to someone who made an exception for my address (which you evidently didn't attempt to do).
Actually I did PM AVG about it here at SubSim, who in return told me to contact Sam. But like I already said twice, I dont have an urge to register there atm. ;)
Then why bring it up if it was inconsequential? You knew there was a problem and that contacting Sam could possibly solve that problem, yet you lambast someone and accuse them of excluding you? That's exactly the ATTITUDE that makes the petition necessary to begin with.

Why am I wasting my breath? RDP is right, a good look in the mirror is needed for us ALL.

Didnt I say few posts back that my intention wasnt to discredit the Kickinbak forum? How could've I known that both hotmail & Gmail are banned there? I know I will always been labeled as "the Dowly who likes to insult everyone that doesnt go by his routes". And for the record, I PM'd Ducimus and apologized my behaviour when I had done my time in the brig.

And 2xfor the record, I dont do subtle digs, I say it straight. I meant no disrespect in my post, like I said, I didnt know both those email places were banned and TBH I didnt even come to think of it as 99% of forums accept both of those emails.

So, for the 2nd time on this thread, I must say I am sorry if I've said something that has been misread. But you have to remember, I'm a Finn, my motherlanguage isnt english, mistakes happen. :-?

[bigboywooly]

You do have a point about the usefulness of impartial moderators. Ducimus' first PTO after SH4UBM shut off the U-Boat. I think there has to be some kind of House-Senate conference to encourage non-exclusive mods that keep people from playing the other theater. When circumstances make that impossible, then JSGME installed patches like TMO has would allow you to switch quickly without undue trouble. And this conference should be moderators only, I think. Darn, there's that word should again!:shifty:
As previouly stated
GWX4 WILL break the US side of game
Nothing can be done about that
Too many shared files

GWX4 will NOT be JSGME compatable
GWX never is

Doesnt stop anybody from having multiple installs
Not rocket science

I have 3 SH4 installs at the moment including a GWX 4 one
JSGME had the habit of sometimes leaving files\folders behind which do cause issues

Damn, that's a Ducimus quote until we beat on him for awhile. When his will was broken suddenly this cute little patch appeared!:up:

How do I get this right? Hmmm. Ok, try #1: Never say anything never is!:rotfl: You guys are smarter than that.

I see what you are saying but we PREFER a installer method
Easier to control later regards to clean installs

Of course it has been documented many times about how to create a JSGME folder out of an installer

But for major mods we have found that JSGME does leave folders behind that cause problems later down the line
Moreso in SH4 where even a left over roster folder brings up errors re rec manual pages

:up:

[Takeda Shingen]

Hi Takeda, thanks, no problem I know you just summed the vision of a lot. For resolution, well, throw the insulting/disrespectful guys in the brig as soon as you catch them (I know you're not robots filtering subsim), no matter who the troll is, no matter the number of GB worth of mods he eventually released. A few days should be enough for anybody to think twice before posting rubbish the next time.
IMO that's the only solution proportionnal to the problem. There's hundreds of people browsing that single sub-forum at any hour of the day. Why try to go around a problem, changing things for hundreds of people on the way, when you can just remove the problem in one click ?

That is something that I think everyone can live with. It would also probably help a lot if people would refer to GWX team members as individuals if you have a beef with one. This prevents a lot of 'GWX this' and 'GWX that', which would not cause the team to retort en masse. We could probably smooth a lot of feathers on both sides with that alone.

Once everyone ceases the hostilites, we can probably take the idea to Neal.

To all: What else is a sticking point?

[Dowly]

Hi Takeda, thanks, no problem I know you just summed the vision of a lot. For resolution, well, throw the insulting/disrespectful guys in the brig as soon as you catch them (I know you're not robots filtering subsim), no matter who the troll is, no matter the number of GB worth of mods he eventually released. A few days should be enough for anybody to think twice before posting rubbish the next time.
IMO that's the only solution proportionnal to the problem. There's hundreds of people browsing that single sub-forum at any hour of the day. Why try to go around a problem, changing things for hundreds of people on the way, when you can just remove the problem in one click ?
That is something that I think everyone can live with. It would also probably help a lot if people would refer to GWX team members as individuals if you have a beef with one. This prevents a lot of 'GWX this' and 'GWX that', which would not cause the team to retort en masse. We could probably smooth a lot of feathers on both sides with that alone.

Well thought and I agree. :up:

[Digital_Trucker]

Is Gmail.com on the ban list aswell? That's the other account which is banned. But like I already said, worry not, I have no need to register atm. :up:
As a matter of fact it is. When I tried to register, I was "banned" also, until I spoke to someone who made an exception for my address (which you evidently didn't attempt to do).
Actually I did PM AVG about it here at SubSim, who in return told me to contact Sam. But like I already said twice, I dont have an urge to register there atm. ;)
Then why bring it up if it was inconsequential? You knew there was a problem and that contacting Sam could possibly solve that problem, yet you lambast someone and accuse them of excluding you? That's exactly the ATTITUDE that makes the petition necessary to begin with.

Why am I wasting my breath? RDP is right, a good look in the mirror is needed for us ALL.
Didnt I say few posts back that my intention wasnt to discredit the Kickinbak forum? How could've I known that both hotmail & Gmail are banned there? I know I will always been labeled as "the Dowly who likes to insult everyone that doesnt go by his routes". And for the record, I PM'd Ducimus and apologized my behaviour when I had done my time in the brig.

And 2xfor the record, I dont do subtle digs, I say it straight. I meant no disrespect in my post, like I said, I didnt know both those email places were banned and TBH I didnt even come to think of it as 99% of forums accept both of those emails.

So, for the 2nd time on this thread, I must say I am sorry if I've said something that has been misread. But you have to remember, I'm a Finn, my motherlanguage isnt english, mistakes happen. :-?
My apologies, too, then, I must have misunderstood the following:

It is a public forum. Some Subsim members post the link as part of their signature with every post they make. We invite every Subsim member to drop by for a visit and talk to the vast array of talented modders who congregate there.
Actually, both of my email addresses I use have been banned from kickinbak. This' the open and helpfull SHIV community you all are talking of? :roll:
If my thinking regarding the meaning of your original question is wrong and you didn't mean to imply anything along the lines that the SH4 community is not as open and helpful as some of us think it is, then I apologize.

BTW, your command of the english language is better than some of my neighbors.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

To the Moderators:

Now, before you close ranks and begin to defend brother AVG... I am going to say something drawn from numerous messages to myself, and teamspeak conversations concerning the same.

The following is true of not only the SH4 forums, but of the SH3 forums as well and drawn from MONTHS of activity.

We (The Grey Wolves Mod Team) have been asked many times to hold our fire and let the moderators police our threads.

We've given you every opportunity to be the police.

Apart from direct attention by Neal Stevens, and considerate responses on occasion by Hitman (who has limited availability and no cross-forum influence) we have witnessed that the usual response to complaints registered by GWX team regarding various issues, were met with anti-enthusiasm at best, and were viewed as simple whining, complaining, and nitpicking at worst.

We have respected Neal's wishes to let the police do the policing and the police FAILED.

By Neal's own statement on this thread... GWX rarely initiates conflict... (and we expect that we will be punished when we do) but when NOTHING HAPPENS as a result of legitimate complaints... we will finish the fight.... as we then have nothing to lose.

If an individual takes the time to write up a complaint and shows you where the harm was caused. It is a valid complaint.

Brushing it aside as you have done on a fairly regular basis, removes any respect or influence you may have with us.

[Dowly]

If my thinking regarding the meaning of your original question is wrong and you didn't mean to imply anything along the lines that the SH4 community is not as open and helpful as some of us think it is, then I apologize.

BTW, your command of the english language is better than some of my neighbors.
And this is PRIOR that I had any idea that both Hotmail and Gmail were banned there. And like I already said, I didnt even think of that as the problem for reason I said on my previous post.

So, for the 3rd time, I say sorry, for drawing conclusions. ;) I though of knowing something that in the end I had no idea of. I have no problem saying that I was wrong on this one. Again, sorry.

[Takeda Shingen]

To the Moderators:

Now, before you close ranks and begin to defend brother AVG... I am going to say something drawn from numerous messages to myself, and teamspeak conversations concerning the same.

The following is true of not only the SH4 forums, but of the SH3 forums as well and drawn from MONTHS of activity.

We (The Grey Wolves Mod Team) have been asked many times to hold our fire and let the moderators police our threads.

We've given you every opportunity to be the police.

Apart from direct attention by Neal Stevens, and considerate responses on occasion by Hitman (who has limited availability and no cross-forum influence) we have witnessed that the usual response to complaints registered by GWX team regarding various issues, were met with anti-enthusiasm at best, and were viewed as simple whining, complaining, and nitpicking at worst.

We have respected Neal's wishes to let the police do the policing and the police FAILED.

By Neal's own statement on this thread... GWX rarely initiates conflict... (and we expect that we will be punished when we do) but when NOTHING HAPPENS as a result of legitimate complaints... we will finish the fight.... as we then have nothing to lose.

If an individual takes the time to write up a complaint and shows you where the harm was caused. It is a valid complaint.

Brushing it aside as you have done on a fairly regular basis, removes any respect or influence you may have with us.

Once again, I think that active moderation is something that everyone can agree on.

[Digital_Trucker]

@ Dowly I refuse to allow you to have the last apology:lol:I owe you one more. I think I've been reading this thread for too long.

[Dowly]

@ Dowly I refuse to allow you to have the last apology:lol:I owe you one more. I think I've been reading this thread for too long.

Lol, ok! This time you get the last one, but next time, it's my turn. :D

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Once again, I think that active moderation is something that everyone can agree on.

Damn I wish I could shake your hand. Thank you for having the balls to say so.

Along the same lines though, for the moment, the laughable anti-GWX free-for-all that this thread has become... is going to have to run its course if any beneficial understanding and/or resolution is to be reached.

[Mush Martin]

its really all about conduct party x and party y will never get along co operate
or respect each other. however both x and y and there subsequent replacemetnts in the future will respect the Onkle his house and his rules.

so far as I can tell that remains the common ground.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Hi Digital Trucker,

The other day you posed a question asking why a modder would want to keep a modding tool to themselves... and seemed to feel as if keeping such a tool under guard was a selfish thing....

You asked for one reason why retaining limited access to such a tool should be viewed as acceptable.

I will answer your question with our primary reason:

We have limited manpower, and though we assist modders DIRECTLY via PM on many occasions, with the huge distribution of the GWX mod and its massive user support mechanism... We have chosen to mod for the user. We can either produce mods or teach people how to mod (and deal continuously with mass-confusion).... but we simply don't have the manpower to do both.

At any rate, we'd get roasted either way.

[Sailor Steve]

We have an impasse. What do you [globally] suggest for resolution?
I've watched all this with interest, since I've never been a part of any mod group and have supported any and all at various times.

Observation 1) What Monolith said about absolute and irrevocable stamping out of overt hostility at the very first sign is a good one. As much as I hate authoritarianism and believe that just a little hostility can clear the air sometimes, it might be the only possibility.

Observation 2) A big part of the problem (already pointed out by others) is that very nearly all of the accusations on both sides are true. What A says about B is not slander, because B usually really did exhibit that behavior. Unfortunately that usually makes it worse, not better.

Observation 3) While (2) is true, it is also true that much of the hostility isn't truly malicious, no matter how much it may appear otherwise. A said what he said because he truly felt that B had slandered him, and B truly feels he is the injured party.

Observation 4) I've been a musician my whole life, and this observation is true: talented people are sensitive people. They know they can do something better than others, and when they disagree with other talented people about how things should be done, well, this is why bands break up. And, since they know they are right, they tend to tell anyone who will listen why it was all the other guy's fault. Unfortunately in this situation the involved people may not have to work together, but they still have to rub shoulders on a daily basis.

As to the question asked concerning a resolution:

1) I think a separate Forum for Atlantic vs Pacific mods is essential. Not because it separates different factions, but because SH4 has improvements that the Atlantic players can't be denied access to. SH3 will be replaced by the improved version, and that's what we all want. The problem is that SH4 can't support all the differences at the same time. The language question is a good example. If you are going to play both theaters (and I certainly am) you have to treat them almost as if they were still separate games, and that means separate installs. Sure it would be nice if someone created a game that did it all, but that's not the case, nor should in necessarily be; you can only play one at a time anyway.

As previouly stated
GWX4 WILL break the US side of game
Nothing can be done about that
Too many shared files

GWX4 will NOT be JSGME compatable
GWX never is

Doesnt stop anybody from having multiple installs
Not rocket science

I have 3 SH4 installs at the moment including a GWX 4 one
JSGME had the habit of sometimes leaving files\folders behind which do cause issues
People who like different SH3 supermods do just that - have separate installs. There are already people with multiple installs of SH4, so they can play the different supermods already in existence. Another one dedicated to expanding the U-boat campaign to the extent it has already been done in SH3 can only help. It won't be long until some of the other SH3-only folks will be moving over as well. It isn't a case of keeping an older game alive, it's a case of a radically improved version of the same game being recognized for what it is. It is going to happen, and since it can't be stopped, and different modders have different goals and don't always agree, a separate forum is probably the only possibility.

2) As much as I like to see things hashed out, the hashing often doesn't accomplish anything besides making both parties angrier and more anxious to prove they are in the right. So, Monolith is probably right: absolute intolerance for flames from anyone is probably the way to go. A public warning, to be followed by a private one, followed by brig time. I can't see a better solution from where I sit.

[Takeda Shingen]

I always like Steve's input. Few people are as well thought-out.

So, if we can agree on the following:

1. A seperate forum for ATO and PTO mods (we already have a U-boat addon players forum).

2. Members can generally agree to stop refering to other mod teams en masse when having a dispute with an individual.

3. Mod groups can generally agree to stop retoring en masse when an individual is addressed.

4. Members can agree on PM as the prefered method correspondence with disputes. Nothing heats up faster than a public retort.

5. A strict and assertive enforcement of SubSim's editorial policy by the moderating team.


....then perhaps we can start a new page here. Any other thoughts?

[Dowly]

I always like Steve's input. Few people are as well thought-out.

So, if we can agree on the following:

1. A seperate forum for ATO and PTO mods (we already have a U-boat addon players forum).

2. Members can generally agree to stop refering to other mod teams en masse when having a dispute with an individual.

3. Mod groups can generally agree to stop retoring en masse when an individual is addressed.

4. Members can agree on PM as the prefered method correspondence with disputes. Nothing heats up faster than a public retort.

5. A strict and assertive enforcement of SubSim's editorial policy by the moderating team.


....then perhaps we can start a new page here. Any other thoughts?

This, I will sign happily. :up:

This of course wont resolve the problem we have here of X not liking Y, but can it even be resolved? I think the actions posted by Tak will do atleast for time being. If things get heated again, maybe the ppl in question should take talk it over in private. Either on a chatroom or Teamspeak with one neutral acting as a referee with the right of muting/kicking in case of things get out of hand.

[Rockin Robbins]

And 2xfor the record, I dont do subtle digs, I say it straight....:-?

OOO Yeah!!!!!:up::up::up::up: No faulting you for that.

[bigboywooly]

I always like Steve's input. Few people are as well thought-out.

If we were all as old and wise
:rotfl:
J\K Steve :up:

So, if we can agree on the following:

1. A seperate forum for ATO and PTO mods (we already have a U-boat addon players forum).

Necessary me thinks

2. Members can generally agree to stop refering to other mod teams en masse when having a dispute with an individual.

Would be a huge step forward

3. Mod groups can generally agree to stop retoring en masse when an individual is addressed.

If no 2 is adhered to this is another sensible suggestion

4. Members can agree on PM as the prefered method correspondence with disputes. Nothing heats up faster than a public retort.

Another usefull suggestion and already used by a couple of ppl ( PMs )

5. A strict and assertive enforcement of SubSim's editorial policy by the moderating team.

Agreed
Unbiased moderating is a must and needs to be stricter than currently is


....then perhaps we can start a new page here. Any other thoughts?

In yellow
:up:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Lots more thoughts here, Takeda Shingen.

I've only gotten started and will be stating my and/or our point of view on a number of matters.

So many have hypocritically blamed GWX for all their ills, and I've held my responses for so long.

We deserve to be heard. We have been loyal to Subsim and if we've needed to earn the right to be heard and considered... we have done exactly that.

[Penelope_Grey]

Sailor Steve has the benefit a lot of us don't have. Age and experience. :up: Not mention the patience of Job.

@Takeda.

I echo what Kpt. Lehmann said to you earlier re the hand shaking... and I think your 5 point plan looks fine to me.:up: Would also personally speaking, not object to having you personally moderate a new ATO board.

What BBW wrote in yellow is also pretty much what is in my head as well.

[MONOLITH]

To the Moderators:

We've given you every opportunity to be the police. .... removes any respect or influence you may have with us.



What's evident here, is that the "guests" here have been allowed to believe it is they who run the site, and even the moderators are supposed to answer to them.

It is so nice of you Lehmann, to "allow the opportunity" for the moderators to do their job. Very generous of you.

Then you declare they have no influence over you. I thought this was Subsim,com, not Lehmann.com


The problem here is not the moderators, it's certain members who have decided they run Subsim, and Neal has supported it.


So, you're relationship with Neal has granted you this ability, so be it, you win.

But the real pathetic truth in it all is clearly stated in your words.


You can yell and rant in your usual style and tell me to shut up now, but the real problems here have been revealed.

My sympathies to the moderators. You have an uphill climb and your feet have been chopped off.

[Rockin Robbins]

We can either produce mods or teach people how to mod (and deal continuously with mass-confusion).... but we simply don't have the manpower to do both.

At any rate, we'd get roasted either way.
There is the central point to your organizational construction. However, I submit to you that skwasjr and others have shown that it possible for a single modder to do some of both. Why not for a mighty team such as GW?

I don't think you have to conduct kindergarten classes, but I don't think you have to be a black hole either.

@Everybody! So we're in agreement? Blame the moderators, forgive them, empower them and get back to work? :up::up::up::up::up::rotfl:

Somebody thank MONOLITH for coming to that conclusion, providing examples of how it works and then getting out of the way so the owner and moderators of this forum could make their choice. His is the real petition we should all endorse.

As moderator, I would have deleted MONOLITH's last post as unfair to Subsim and damaging to MONOLITH's own position and reputation.

@KL, if you re-read the thread in kickinbak where you quote the post by AVG I think you'll see the gist of his reasoning was that U-Boats were brand new to SH4 and that because they were new they were garnering the lion's share of attention and screenies right then. He was implying that fleet boat screenies didn't win because they weren't submitted. In a year, after the novelty wore off, the picture would be more balanced. AVG is involved in SH4 because he works on the USS Torsk and has no interest in U-Boats. That's not a bad thing, any more than for those Europeans who were not innoculated with fleet boat fever and only like U-Boats. I think if AVG were a moderator of the PTO forum he would be fair. I think if Penelope were moderator in the ATO forum (not suggesting or nominating here contrary to common sense and Subsim rules:D) she would be fair. Impartiality is overrated.

[AVGWarhawk]

And no one should confuse the generous amount of tolerance and forbearance that has been shown up to now with they way things are going to be in the future.



Nice threat.

KL, this currently not a threat but a reality to the situation. It has come to that. However, this thread is not about possible sanction upon an individual or individuals who want to continue arguing over mods. We are looking for solutions to bring harmony between theaters. I think it is obtainable if all are willing. This is the goal. Not a continuation of hard feelings over past issues. I see from your post here you are not ready to come with a open mind over this debacle that has stewed for over two years. It has now come to boil. We need to work together to turn off the heat. Let us know when you are ready.

AVG_Warhawk, never pretend to know what is on my mind.

What you don't see is I am hoping for the best. If you think I enjoy flame wars, or that somehow CONSTANT DERISION from so many boosts my ego, then you yourself have a closed mind.

I will tell you what is on my mind. I am angry and I am calm... I am a stubborn Texan who will not be overrun by those who insult and threaten.

You have stated numerous times how tired you are of all matters relating to moderating... and how tired you are of the flame wars.

You have demonstrated complete willingness to shut down ATO related threads without any effort to actually moderate issues.

You no longer give a damn and that in itself is reason enough for you to step down.

You are biased against ATO matters and this is proof... your own speech/thoughts:

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f117/KptLehmann/AVGvsNeal.jpg

Let see, I agreed with LukeFF. No problem there. "I wished more fleetboats were represented." Hmmmm, just my own observation and desire. "I guess Neal picked judges that are SH3 super fans". Probably true as SH3 has a much larger following then SH4. Known fact. "This will come around again next year." Sure will, maybe SH4 will have grown some more and there will be more representation of the fleetboats. Looks harmless to me. Read what you like into it. No problem. I read, eat, sleep and work on fleetboats. Sorry and to bad. I did not know it was such a travesty not to care for the ATO. Read all the books, played the game, watched all the movies. Time to move on to something else. This sounds much like life in motion to me.

Let see, you want us to moderate. OK, when you find you have 24 hours/7 days a week to go through every thread, please do. I do not have that kind of time. Please locate were I did not step in attempting to calm a thread. I'm sure you can find were I just locked it because most if not all ignore moderators. Please do not attempt to talk your way out of this one. EVERYONE ignores. Ok, sometimes things I read do not look offense or derogatory to me. However, they do to others. USE THE FECKING REPORT BAD POST BUTTON! ALL MODERATORS GET AN EMAIL ABOUT IT. Is that really to hard to ask? Shutting down the thread is the measure I take because IGNORE is used and everyone continues on their way. So, it has been suggested that moderators have use of the ban button. Penelope is aghast, jimbuna is aghast with emoticons to prove it. How dare anyone but Neal have that option? Meanwhile the moderator sits with his thumb up his a$$ being able to do nothing but close the thread after attempts to stop it are made. No matter, the posters will start a new one in a few moments. On it goes.

You tell me what you would do? I'm interested in hearing it.

Thanks for your observations on not giving a damn at the moment. I spent the better part of the day (4th) watching this thread to find resolution while you were off doing something. Seemingly it looks like you do not give a damn and showing up to help sort it out will be done at your leisure. Very nice. Ok, perhaps a family plan for the 4th. Hope it was enjoyable. Fortunate for me I scheduled mine for the 6th. Therefore I gave a damn and spent my time here. Asking and answering questions.


As per usual, KL, stop telling people what to do. You did so before and I responded and your doing it now. I will step down when I'm damn good and ready.

[JREX53]

Hi Digital Trucker,

The other day you posed a question asking why a modder would want to keep a modding tool to themselves... and seemed to feel as if keeping such a tool under guard was a selfish thing....

You asked for one reason why retaining limited access to such a tool should be viewed as acceptable.

I will answer your question with our primary reason:

We have limited manpower, and though we assist modders DIRECTLY via PM on many occasions, with the huge distribution of the GWX mod and its massive user support mechanism... We have chosen to mod for the user. We can either produce mods or teach people how to mod (and deal continuously with mass-confusion).... but we simply don't have the manpower to do both.

At any rate, we'd get roasted either way.

Kpt. Lehmann,

I agree with you whole heartedly, there just isn't enough time in the day for me to do everything I want to, but unfortunately we can't change the fact that there is only 24 hours in a day.

I also understand that because you have limited manpower you can only do so much, but wouldn't it make more sense if you and the modders that ask you for help were to make in the open forum instead of PM's. Wouldn't it save you and your team from having to tell someone, 3, 6 months, or longer the same thing that you have done in the past. To me, if the help was made on the open forum, then it would benefit the modders of the future on how and why some of the files are changed to create the desired mod. Thus, you would not have to repeat the cycle every time someone needed some help and you and your team would have more time to mod the AO to your standards.

This would result in a larger knowledge base that benefits every modder and non-modder in the community. Just my 2 cents.

[bigboywooly]

[quote=Kpt. Lehmann]We can either produce mods or teach people how to mod (and deal continuously with mass-confusion).... but we simply don't have the manpower to do both.

At any rate, we'd get roasted either way.

There is the central point to your organizational construction. However, I submit to you that skwasjr and others have shown that it possible for a single modder to do some of both. Why not for a mighty team such as GW?

quote]

To be fair skwasjr isnt part of a major mod team but has spent a loooong time building his excellant tool
And provided no end of support

Something you cannot do when trying to build a mod too

Everybody has real life too
Time IS limited and not a finite resource

[Penelope_Grey]

There is the central point to your organizational construction. However, I submit to you that skwasjr and others have shown that it possible for a single modder to do some of both. Why not for a mighty team such as GW?
Where do we get the time? In between our actual 9 to 5 jobs? (Cept me... Im unemployed now lol) In between user support on SH3? In between full time development and testing? There are a great many demands on GW resources. I seriously doubt you full appreciate RR the sheer scale of the work that Grey Wolves undertakes... which is why what you ask, cannot be done... if it could be. It would be done.



I don't think you have to conduct kindergarten classes, but I don't think you have to be a black hole either.
Black Holes suck everything in and give nothing out... at the end of development Grey Wolves hands out a mod package most people can use and enjoy. Working off on our own is just the way we like to do things... free of distractions and sidetracks.