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[bigboywooly]

Hi Digital Trucker,

The other day you posed a question asking why a modder would want to keep a modding tool to themselves... and seemed to feel as if keeping such a tool under guard was a selfish thing....

You asked for one reason why retaining limited access to such a tool should be viewed as acceptable.

I will answer your question with our primary reason:

We have limited manpower, and though we assist modders DIRECTLY via PM on many occasions, with the huge distribution of the GWX mod and its massive user support mechanism... We have chosen to mod for the user. We can either produce mods or teach people how to mod (and deal continuously with mass-confusion).... but we simply don't have the manpower to do both.

At any rate, we'd get roasted either way.

Kpt. Lehmann,

I agree with you whole heartedly, there just isn't enough time in the day for me to do everything I want to, but unfortunately we can't change the fact that there is only 24 hours in a day.

I also understand that because you have limited manpower you can only do so much, but wouldn't it make more sense if you and the modders that ask you for help were to make in the open forum instead of PM's. Wouldn't it save you and your team from having to tell someone, 3, 6 months, or longer the same thing that you have done in the past. To me, if the help was made on the open forum, then it would benefit the modders of the future on how and why some of the files are changed to create the desired mod. Thus, you would not have to repeat the cycle every time someone needed some help and you and your team would have more time to mod the AO to your standards.

This would result in a larger knowledge base that benefits every modder and non-modder in the community. Just my 2 cents.

To a certain extent yes
We do not have the manpower to police a large open forum
Nor the finances to provide a large open forum

The search function IS there for all to use as the majority of things are well publicised and out there already

Trouble is ppl do not use it but to easily start a new thread

[AVGWarhawk]

To the Moderators:

Now, before you close ranks and begin to defend brother AVG... I am going to say something drawn from numerous messages to myself, and teamspeak conversations concerning the same.

The following is true of not only the SH4 forums, but of the SH3 forums as well and drawn from MONTHS of activity.

We (The Grey Wolves Mod Team) have been asked many times to hold our fire and let the moderators police our threads.

We've given you every opportunity to be the police.

Apart from direct attention by Neal Stevens, and considerate responses on occasion by Hitman (who has limited availability and no cross-forum influence) we have witnessed that the usual response to complaints registered by GWX team regarding various issues, were met with anti-enthusiasm at best, and were viewed as simple whining, complaining, and nitpicking at worst.

We have respected Neal's wishes to let the police do the policing and the police FAILED.

By Neal's own statement on this thread... GWX rarely initiates conflict... (and we expect that we will be punished when we do) but when NOTHING HAPPENS as a result of legitimate complaints... we will finish the fight.... as we then have nothing to lose.

If an individual takes the time to write up a complaint and shows you where the harm was caused. It is a valid complaint.

Brushing it aside as you have done on a fairly regular basis, removes any respect or influence you may have with us.

The police failed? How about other respected members on this forum as failing to ignore the baiting? Both sides. How many times have I asked you and jimbuna to be stand up guys. 99% of the time you two are as most of the GWX crew are. The other 1% is when you are not. Unfortunte this 1% gets the focus. So please do not lay this all on the moderators and this a$$hole of impartial moderator lap. Legitimate complaints should come in PM or bad post button. This tool is open for all. You, the crew and SH4 modders are partial to blame. We as moderators are left to deal with it and apparently the root cause in your eyes. Nice set of rose colored glasses.

[Dowly]

To the Moderators:

We've given you every opportunity to be the police. .... removes any respect or influence you may have with us.


What's evident here, is that the "guests" here have been allowed to believe it is they who run the site, and even the moderators are supposed to answer to them.

It is so nice of you Lehmann, to "allow the opportunity" for the moderators to do their job. Very generous of you.

Then you declare they have no influence over you. I thought this was Subsim,com, not Lehmann.com


The problem here is not the moderators, it's certain members who have decided they run Subsim, and Neal has supported it.


So, you're relationship with Neal has granted you this ability, so be it, you win.

But the real pathetic truth in it all is clearly stated in your words.


You can yell and rant in your usual style and tell me to shut up now, but the real problems here have been revealed.

My sympathies to the moderators. You have an uphill climb and your feet have been chopped off.

TBH, I remember multiple cases of either Neal or some of the moderators telling us/me/GWX team to "not feed the trolls, use the report button". And I have used it quite a few times and so has many many others. Seeing as it only has resulted in locking of the said thread without any punishment for the one who started it makes me personally mad. What good is the report button then? I've said this in other threads lately, just simply locking the thread wont fix the problem (But that's why we all are here now, right? :lol:).

Moderators, I am glad to see that you are taking more heavier tools to use to put a stop to the fighting, but my suggestion would be a more severe punishment than a 24hr ban, a week minimum would IN MY OPINION be right. 24hrs is a short time and propably wont do any good for the person that is banned.

I can talk of an own experience. The last 30 day ban I got, I was REALLY angry for 3-4 days after it (mostly because the counterpart who IMHO started the whole thing, got only a 3 day ban, but that is irrelevant.), but a week/1½ weeks later I started to feel really ashamed of what I did and I can say (and I hope) that my behaviour here at SS has improved alot after the ban. I'm not jumping in on every fight I see just for the heck of it, I post if I have something to say, be it my opinion or a correction for someone's post.

But, like I said to Neal in one of my PM's I am certainly in no position to start to teach you how to do your job as moderators, this' just how I see it. :yep:

[Carotio]

Hi Digital Trucker,

The other day you posed a question asking why a modder would want to keep a modding tool to themselves... and seemed to feel as if keeping such a tool under guard was a selfish thing....

You asked for one reason why retaining limited access to such a tool should be viewed as acceptable.

I will answer your question with our primary reason:

We have limited manpower, and though we assist modders DIRECTLY via PM on many occasions, with the huge distribution of the GWX mod and its massive user support mechanism... We have chosen to mod for the user. We can either produce mods or teach people how to mod (and deal continuously with mass-confusion).... but we simply don't have the manpower to do both.

At any rate, we'd get roasted either way.

I know this was not directed to me, but I'll like to comment that part in fat font.
Some modders, also among those some GWX modders, actually manages to help out both newbies and other modders achieving their own goals for gameplay, and isn't exactly that what a community is all about?
We all like our different way of gameplay, no matter if it's ATO or PTO.
I know you like one big package, which suits your game style. And though you may not have the manpower, you could give it an effort and still try and teach. Numerous members of your group do it more or less. You would do yourself a huge service to give it a try. It would might help on your reputation.
So what if not everybody understands the basic of your teaching in this or that tool? If just a handfull or two do, then new modders may be born.

KL, you know you and I have disagreed about issues many times, and we'll probably disagree again, but please read my message twice. It's meant in best intent for the better for all of us at subsim. :up:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

We can either produce mods or teach people how to mod (and deal continuously with mass-confusion).... but we simply don't have the manpower to do both.

At any rate, we'd get roasted either way.

There is the central point to your organizational construction. However, I submit to you that skwasjr and others have shown that it possible for a single modder to do some of both. Why not for a mighty team such as GW?

I don't think you have to conduct kindergarten classes, but I don't think you have to be a black hole either.

@Everybody! So we're in agreement? Blame the moderators, forgive them, empower them and get back to work? :up::up::up::up::up::rotfl:

Somebody thank MONOLITH for coming to that conclusion, providing examples of how it works and then getting out of the way so the owner and moderators of this forum could make their choice. His is the real petition we should all endorse.

Monolith has been a long-time instigator of anti-GWX sentiment and trolling. Though his comments are on occasion irritating... they are obviously driven by hate, so we largely discount anything he has to say.

Concerning Rockin Robbin's opportunistic thrusting and retreating... Meh. His attitude speaks for itself concerning GWX matters.

His words, (and indication of his attitude towards GWX) describing the logical progression of the Subsim.com news page and the related position of a GWX release announcement there as subsequent articles marched it down the page:
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f117/KptLehmann/14yx41.jpg

[JREX53]

I agree with your there bigboywooly, people do not use the search function and it really bugs the heck out of me also.

But like the Kpt. said, you guys do help people via PM's, all I am saying is, if it is new information, not already been talked about. What is the problem in bringing the information out, so that everybody knows and you wouldn't be asked the same questions in the future.

[AVGWarhawk]

Sailor Steve has the benefit a lot of us don't have. Age and experience. :up: Not mention the patience of Job.

@Takeda.

I echo what Kpt. Lehmann said to you earlier re the hand shaking... and I think your 5 point plan looks fine to me.:up: Would also personally speaking, not object to having you personally moderate a new ATO board.

What BBW wrote in yellow is also pretty much what is in my head as well.

Now was that so hard Penelope? A moderator to call your own. I promise to keep my sorry butt up in SH4. However, I do reserve the right to come into the SH4 uboat forum to see how things are progressing. One day, I will play the uboat again. How can I not? The countless hours spent making it great would be a travesty on my part not to use and enjoy the work that was put into it.

[Digital_Trucker]

Hi Digital Trucker,

The other day you posed a question asking why a modder would want to keep a modding tool to themselves... and seemed to feel as if keeping such a tool under guard was a selfish thing....

You asked for one reason why retaining limited access to such a tool should be viewed as acceptable.

I will answer your question with our primary reason:

We have limited manpower, and though we assist modders DIRECTLY via PM on many occasions, with the huge distribution of the GWX mod and its massive user support mechanism... We have chosen to mod for the user. We can either produce mods or teach people how to mod (and deal continuously with mass-confusion).... but we simply don't have the manpower to do both.

At any rate, we'd get roasted either way.
Hey, I'm a tool-writer (a minor one at that). I can't conceive of a purpose for writing a tool and not sharing it. Tools are meant to be used (not just written for one's self). Perhaps that belief stems from my first career as a programmer. I never wrote a program for myself. I also realize that one does not always have time to support a tool. I believe I mentioned that tools can be released "as is" and without support. Many tools end up that way when the creator drops out of the community.

I'll continue asking you a question to answer your question:hmm:If a tool is available to help to a modding job, why should a person "reinvent the wheel", so to speak. If a person wishes to make a mod and needs to do a job and there is an existing tool to do part of that job and said person is intelligent enough to operate the tool, why would the community be served better by not allowing him to use said tool? I can answer that question very easily. The community would not be served. You never know when someone who never even tried to mod, given the right tools, might come up with an "out of the box" idea that would totally change the game. Said person may not be able to create his own tool, as some are blessed with the talent to do.

Now, I am not suggesting that a "half baked" tool be released to the public. But who, in the tool writing business, deliberately sets out to write a "half baked" tool. Personally, whether I'm using the tool for my own uses or for others, I like it to work correctly and be something that's usable for a purpose.

On the other hand, withholding a tool simply because you don't want someone else to be able to do what you are doing (or you want it to be more difficult), is a totally different matter. Don't get me wrong here, I am not accusing anyone of having done so. I agreed with that portion of the petition as it was written because I believe that is the way for this game to be all that it can be. Perhaps that's because I write tools, but I also believe an open cooperative community is the best way to get a "job" such as this done.

Does that have disadvantages? Yes it does. Sometimes it creates confusion. Sometimes there are mod conflicts. To date, those mod conflicts have been handled in a "cooperative manner" here. People who do mods by themselves take the time to accomodate those that use a mod that conflicts with their mod. Sometimes, it is something simple that a person that enjoys inegrating things (such as myself) can handle.

Does it have advantages? Inumerable (pardon the spelling, I don't care to go look it up at the moment) ones. Ideas come from the strangest sources at times and there are tons of folks out there who have ideas but no way to put them into practice.

This is where your group and SH4's current community differ in theory. We are very loosely organized and open to contributions from anyone. We don't have a support group, WE ARE THE SUPPORT GROUP. For example, I write an app to handle radio stations in-game. Fred, who is a radio station creator, will often answer questions regarding my app when I don't get to them first. Others who are familiar with it will do the same.

We attempt to help one another in any way we can. That is the attitude, I personally enoy about the SH4 community. I will admit that I am no fan of "super mods". I care to take what I like and throw away what I don't like. Simply, I like my game the way I like it.

I tend to ramble sometimes, so I probably haven't answered your question directly, but feel free to cause me to ramble some more if I haven't answered the question.

I would also like to propose a theory to you that you may not have considered. You stated that you (being GWX) make mods, not teach how to mod. I propose to you that by teaching people how to mod you create more mods than you yourself could ever dream of:hmm: That is why when I say WE, I mean the entire community, not just some small group of individuals. Helping modders by PM is a noble thing to do, however, helping modders in an open forum where more than one modder can see what is going on would probably have a more productive result.

Edit : and as stated by Carotio while I was typing, surely wouldn't do the rep any harm.

[Penelope_Grey]

Sailor Steve has the benefit a lot of us don't have. Age and experience. :up: Not mention the patience of Job.

@Takeda.

I echo what Kpt. Lehmann said to you earlier re the hand shaking... and I think your 5 point plan looks fine to me.:up: Would also personally speaking, not object to having you personally moderate a new ATO board.

What BBW wrote in yellow is also pretty much what is in my head as well.
Now was that so hard Penelope? A moderator to call your own. I promise to keep my sorry butt up in SH4. However, I do reserve the right to come into the SH4 uboat forum to see how things are progressing. One day, I will play the uboat again. How can I not? The countless hours spent making it great would be a travesty on my part not to use and enjoy the work that was put into it.
Dunno what you mean by "Was that so hard"... but... moving on...

See right there, your promise to keep your 'butt' in SH4... its ALL SH4... what I have been saying all along is we all have a vested interest in SH4 for one reason or another... what differs is what we want out of it. I feel personally that GWX members have NEVER been welcome in the SH4 section but that is neither here nor there... FWIW now that Takeda has put up those 5 points... I think following him is the best plan for EVERYBODY at least from where I sit.

[bigboywooly]

Hi Digital Trucker,

The other day you posed a question asking why a modder would want to keep a modding tool to themselves... and seemed to feel as if keeping such a tool under guard was a selfish thing....

You asked for one reason why retaining limited access to such a tool should be viewed as acceptable.

I will answer your question with our primary reason:

We have limited manpower, and though we assist modders DIRECTLY via PM on many occasions, with the huge distribution of the GWX mod and its massive user support mechanism... We have chosen to mod for the user. We can either produce mods or teach people how to mod (and deal continuously with mass-confusion).... but we simply don't have the manpower to do both.

At any rate, we'd get roasted either way.

I know this was not directed to me, but I'll like to comment that part in fat font.
Some modders, also among those some GWX modders, actually manages to help out both newbies and other modders achieving their own goals for gameplay, and isn't exactly that what a community is all about?
We all like our different way of gameplay, no matter if it's ATO or PTO.
I know you like one big package, which suits your game style. And though you may not have the manpower, you could give it an effort and still try and teach. Numerous members of your group do it more or less. You would do yourself a huge service to give it a try. It would might help on your reputation.
So what if not everybody understands the basic of your teaching in this or that tool? If just a handfull or two do, then new modders may be born.

KL, you know you and I have disagreed about issues many times, and we'll probably disagree again, but please read my message twice. It's meant in best intent for the better for all of us at subsim. :up:

Support takes up a huge amount of time
And thats just for the mod
You are dealing with a constant shifting user base
New users come in all the time so support continues on GWX 2.1 and no doubt will do
Not everybody understands every part of GWX in the dev team
Ask me a campaign question and I will gladly answer
Ask the same question to the rest of the team and most have no idea
Similary ask me about sounds\sim files etc and you wont get anywhere as I have no clue and not really a desire to as other people manage that area

From a campaign POV I have only ever used one tool
Written by a NON GWX member with the specific instructions it was never to be released
So I honor his wishes
No good for SH4 anyway as built for the SH3 structure

So not only are we juggling RL and GWX 2.1 support AND trying to build a mod for SH4 but you want user support on tools created by ppl for them selves

Again those tools are created by the ppl who use them
THEIR tools
Not GWX ones
Down to individuals not a team

Personnaly I have spent most of the last 2 days in this thread alone
Time gone
Time I wanted to use scripting
Time wasted ?
Hope not
BUT time I will never get again

Compromises have to be made in some areas and thats down to individuals but compromises in how ppl wish to spend their time is up to them
If they choose not to provide support but to actually mod or indeed play well then so be it.
And you cant really force anyone into that

[Dowly]

Re:

Kpt.Lehmann: We can either produce mods or teach people how to mod (and deal continuously with mass-confusion).... but we simply don't have the manpower to do both.

And the ppl who say after it "but he and he did it, why cant you?"

I already said this in this thread. Even the smallest supermod would prolly takes dozens of pages to explaing how every new thing was done. Developement times would get waaaay longer just for the sake of documenting every single change of code in case the modder forgets what he did in some point to achieve the end result.

Let's take GWX for example (WELL I AM SORRY! I DONT KNOW ANY OTHER MOD ASWELL AS GWX!), it took over 2 years to do from beginning to end. Now, add documentation of every new find to that, I bet we'd be looking at 6-10 months of extra work to just sort out all the irrelevant info out of the notes all the modders of the team has made for themselves and rewrite all of it so everyone can understand it.

And what is the sole reason of this whole thing about "not sharing what you know"? Lazyness, the files are there for every released mod! Research them, dont expect an answer to be brought in front of you, the best way to learn things is doing and researching. That's how I've learned every game's modding I've done.

[Rockin Robbins]

I don't think you have to conduct kindergarten classes, but I don't think you have to be a black hole either.
Black Holes suck everything in and give nothing out... at the end of development Grey Wolves hands out a mod package most people can use and enjoy. Working off on our own is just the way we like to do things... free of distractions and sidetracks.

Yup, bad analogy, although some British guy with a wheelchair and who speaks through a computer says that black holes evaporate in elemental particles that are the very building blocks of the universe.:sunny: ---------------- Now playing: Laika & The Cosmonauts - Telstar (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/laika_the_cosmonauts/track/telstar) via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

[Digital_Trucker]

internet problem, double post, sorry

[bigboywooly]

I would also like to propose a theory to you that you may not have considered. You stated that you (being GWX) make mods, not teach how to mod. I propose to you that by teaching people how to mod you create more mods than you yourself could ever dream of:hmm: That is why when I say WE, I mean the entire community, not just some small group of individuals. Helping modders by PM is a noble thing to do, however, helping modders in an open forum where more than one modder can see what is going on would probably have a more productive result.

Edit : and as stated by Carotio while I was typing, surely wouldn't do the rep any harm.

Time
Who has the time to teach people to mod ?
Very few of GWX dev team have had time to PLAY the mod we created
Let alone teach people
I dont see many other people teaching someone to mod
Passing out what we know is all we can do

But I understand what you are trying to say

Even in open forums everything isnt visible
People work on thier own and post FINISHED bits
Not how they got to that point

Besides nothing GWX knows re SH4 is anything other than " reinventing the wheel "
Info is already out there
The terrain mod was a step up and is released
Mikhayl has visibly posted all he know on what he had done working on the Med mod

[bigboywooly]

Once again, I think that active moderation is something that everyone can agree on.

Damn I wish I could shake your hand. Thank you for having the balls to say so.

Along the same lines though, for the moment, the laughable anti-GWX free-for-all that this thread has become... is going to have to run its course if any beneficial understanding and/or resolution is to be reached.

Remember that active moderation cuts both ways.

JCC

Aye
ALL sides stand to lose people
As it should be

Besides time away from here is time spent modding
:rotfl:

[Dowly]

Hey, I'm a tool-writer (a minor one at that). I can't conceive of a purpose for writing a tool and not sharing it. Tools are meant to be used (not just written for one's self).
This' the 3rd time this is explained on this thread. :p

Say, a modder needs a simple tool for use to help speed he's modding, he makes a very simple and basic tool and he can use it with no problem, because he made it and knows everything about it. Now, if he would release the simple and very basic tool to the community, it would start a 230 paged thread of questions "I cant get it to work!, How it works?, How to do that and that?"

What I mean, is that if a modder makes a VERY simple and basic tool just for himself to speed up the modding process, he shouldnt be obligated to share it with the community if he doesnt want to, for the simple reason that it would cause a huge flow of support requests.

It just wouldnt be worth it me thinks.

[TheBrauerHour]

You all are better than this. What happened here?

I am really surprised. I just decided to read this thread today, and I can't believe this is the same subsim I donated to in the past. I will ask you, why would anyone feel compelled to donate to help keep this site up right now? Does it make you feel good to know that you are destroying this community?

I have been playing WWIIOL for a while. I just got a new computer and thought it would be nice to try SH4 again...and this is what I come back to. :down:


I am absolutely disgusted that the simple idea of community has so degraded here.

[Dowly]

I have been playing WWIIOL for a while.

Heeey! Just subscribed for 3 months this week on WWIIOL. :up: The nick's Dowly and you an find me mostly on the German side as an pilot. :yep:

[Carotio]

......

Support takes up a huge amount of time
And thats just for the mod
You are dealing with a constant shifting user base
New users come in all the time so support continues on GWX 2.1 and no doubt will do
Not everybody understands every part of GWX in the dev team
Ask me a campaign question and I will gladly answer
Ask the same question to the rest of the team and most have no idea
Similary ask me about sounds\sim files etc and you wont get anywhere as I have no clue and not really a desire to as other people manage that area

From a campaign POV I have only ever used one tool
Written by a NON GWX member with the specific instructions it was never to be released
So I honor his wishes
No good for SH4 anyway as built for the SH3 structure

So not only are we juggling RL and GWX 2.1 support AND trying to build a mod for SH4 but you want user support on tools created by ppl for them selves

Again those tools are created by the ppl who use them
THEIR tools
Not GWX ones
Down to individuals not a team

Personnaly I have spent most of the last 2 days in this thread alone
Time gone
Time I wanted to use scripting
Time wasted ?
Hope not
BUT time I will never get again

Compromises have to be made in some areas and thats down to individuals but compromises in how ppl wish to spend their time is up to them
If they choose not to provide support but to actually mod or indeed play well then so be it.
And you cant really force anyone into that

If you read further above in the thread somewhere, I did mention you as one of the guys who actually help, because I have witnessed it in numerous occasions. So I'm not complaining about you or your limits.
We all have our limits and especially limits to our time.
If someone releases a tool or mod "as is" without support, then so be it. This ain't what I'm questioning either.

It's about the feeling about secrecy. As someone says: it's noble to help in PM, but why not just bring the request AND the solution out in the open? This is no accusation against you or anybody else, but an open question to all.

But now that you brought up the theme of time and modding. Who are you modding for? Yourself or the community. If one mods for the community and chooses to release the work in the open, one should be prepared to spend time in answering questions how to alter this and alter that. Otherwise, just keep the mod to yourself as if it never existed. No one forces anyone to release mods either. Sorry for my sarcasm, but do you get my point? The time can be spend in a much more constructive manner if spend teaching rather than modding in secret, then release a full working product, which everybody then wants explained how to alter.

Anyway, after reading the latest replies after this, I will spend the rest of the time of this evening by turning off my pc, go eat and watch tv, instead of using my time writing on my new altered periscope/uzo mod...

[TheBrauerHour]

I have been playing WWIIOL for a while.
Heeey! Just subscribed for 3 months this week on WWIIOL. :up: The nick's Dowly and you an find me mostly on the German side as an pilot. :yep:

Hey I'll look for you. My gamename is juengere.

[Dowly]

I have been playing WWIIOL for a while.
Heeey! Just subscribed for 3 months this week on WWIIOL. :up: The nick's Dowly and you an find me mostly on the German side as an pilot. :yep:
Hey I'll look for you. My gamename is juengere.

Rgr that. Hope to see you there. :rock:

[Rockin Robbins]

Monolith has been a long-time instigator of anti-GWX sentiment and trolling. Though his comments are on occasion irritating... they are obviously driven by hate, so we largely discount anything he has to say.

To quote Ronald Reagan, "There you go again!" KH, you're better than that. I was not considering the personality of MONOLITH or his past history, but the good sense of what he had to say, which mirrored BBW and your own.

Concerning Rockin Robbin's opportunistic thrusting and retreating... Meh. His attitude speaks for itself concerning GWX matters.

His words, (and indication of his attitude towards GWX) describing the logical progression of the Subsim.com news page and the related position of a GWX release announcement there as subsequent articles marched it down the page:
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f117/KptLehmann/14yx41.jpgAnd it's still funny!

Many of the modders over at kickinbak were dragging their sorry posteriors through the gutter, saying "We're dead meat when GWX gets here.", "Yeah, they'll just kick us to the curb, why do we even mod?", and the infamous from an unnamed perpetrator, "Subsim is just biased toward U-Boats and GWX. They're bought and paid for." Then out came the new release of RFB and Operation Monsun. Subsim put them both up in the feature spot, and one other I think, bouncing GWX to the third or fourth position.

Feeling vindicated in my position that GWX has no power to kick anybody to the curb even if they wanted to, and rubbing their noses in their previous claim that GWX gets preferrential treatment, my post called attention to the fact that those modders did get fair exposure from Subsim. Note that I called GWX no bad names. I didn't reflect badly on the GWX product. I didn't characterize them as "hating" anything. It was a harmless, funny comment, showing the error of the kickinback pessimism.

A functional equivalent would have been "Hey guys, if Subsim hates you so much, what are you doing up there on top?" Instead I said it indirectly in a way that would not have been appropriate at Subsim but was perfectly appropriate for there.

Please refer back to my posts about the "nice fence." There is no opportunity here for me. Opportunity for what?:rotfl::rotfl:Thrusting and retreating? Sounds very interesting in the proper context. I'll take that up with my wife.:up: My attitude toward GWX is that it is installed on my SH3 game.

Just because I encourage the SH4 modders does not imply that I have any hatred toward GWX. I also encourage modders for the ATO, often against antipathy from PTO "enthusiasts."

Counseling response instead of reaction is not the same as being equivocal. After all, I have no power or responsibility either here or at kickinbak. My only tool is persuasion. I can be unclear. I can be wrong. But I won't be afraid to say what's on my mind. Any flak that generates is just the cost of doing business. I'll take any criticism into consideration and apologize where I'm wrong, learn and continue forward.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

To the Moderators:

Now, before you close ranks and begin to defend brother AVG... I am going to say something drawn from numerous messages to myself, and teamspeak conversations concerning the same.

The following is true of not only the SH4 forums, but of the SH3 forums as well and drawn from MONTHS of activity.

We (The Grey Wolves Mod Team) have been asked many times to hold our fire and let the moderators police our threads.

We've given you every opportunity to be the police.

Apart from direct attention by Neal Stevens, and considerate responses on occasion by Hitman (who has limited availability and no cross-forum influence) we have witnessed that the usual response to complaints registered by GWX team regarding various issues, were met with anti-enthusiasm at best, and were viewed as simple whining, complaining, and nitpicking at worst.

We have respected Neal's wishes to let the police do the policing and the police FAILED.

By Neal's own statement on this thread... GWX rarely initiates conflict... (and we expect that we will be punished when we do) but when NOTHING HAPPENS as a result of legitimate complaints... we will finish the fight.... as we then have nothing to lose.

If an individual takes the time to write up a complaint and shows you where the harm was caused. It is a valid complaint.

Brushing it aside as you have done on a fairly regular basis, removes any respect or influence you may have with us.

The police failed? How about other respected members on this forum as failing to ignore the baiting? Both sides. How many times have I asked you and jimbuna to be stand up guys. 99% of the time you two are as most of the GWX crew are. The other 1% is when you are not. Unfortunte this 1% gets the focus. So please do not lay this all on the moderators and this a$$hole of impartial moderator lap. Legitimate complaints should come in PM or bad post button. This tool is open for all. You, the crew and SH4 modders are partial to blame. We as moderators are left to deal with it and apparently the root cause in your eyes. Nice set of rose colored glasses.

Obfuscate all you like. Your obvious bias, and misgiven sense that I somehow run this forum and/or Subsim.com (along with others like Monolith and Ducimus who have a long-standing axe to grind for me and/or GWX) stink of hate and disinterest in LISTENING to matters you find inconvenient.

Yes, the police failed.

You have chosen to brush aside concerns brought before you and as a result the GWX Mod Team has no confidence in your ability to act fairly. Indeed, you are generally viewed as useless by many of the senior members of the team.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Just a general observation in the midst of all the GWX and Kpt. Lehmann-bashing happening here.

It is entirely predictable to see the usual ranters again demanding universal respect but giving it selectively.

[bigboywooly]

[quote=Carotio]But now that you brought up the theme of time and modding. Who are you modding for? Yourself or the community. If one mods for the community and chooses to release the work in the open, one should be prepared to spend time in answering questions how to alter this and alter that. Otherwise, just keep the mod to yourself as if it never existed. No one forces anyone to release mods either. Sorry for my sarcasm, but do you get my point? The time can be spend in a much more constructive manner if spend teaching rather than modding in secret, then release a full working product, which everybody then wants explained how to alter.

[quote]

Am actually modding for GWX AND the community
And by your own admission we DO spent time on support
Not so much time on how to alter this and that
As I dont see anywhere really

Only a few posts actually explain how to

Who taught YOU how to mod ?
Ah like most of us you figured it out
As I did
By reading the forums and searching for info
Most of it is out there
Even tutorials out there if people look
Even wrote a couple myself
Outdated now as nothad the time to redo
OK some of SH4 files differ to SH3 but a lot are very similar

And again tis all time
Even if you post a thread on how you did something you are still inundated with replies on how to take something a stage further or I cant get it to work etc

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Monolith has been a long-time instigator of anti-GWX sentiment and trolling. Though his comments are on occasion irritating... they are obviously driven by hate, so we largely discount anything he has to say.

To quote Ronald Reagan, "There you go again!" KH, you're better than that. I was not considering the personality of MONOLITH or his past history, but the good sense of what he had to say, which mirrored BBW and your own.

Concerning Rockin Robbin's opportunistic thrusting and retreating... Meh. His attitude speaks for itself concerning GWX matters.

His words, (and indication of his attitude towards GWX) describing the logical progression of the Subsim.com news page and the related position of a GWX release announcement there as subsequent articles marched it down the page:
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f117/KptLehmann/14yx41.jpgAnd it's still funny!

Many of the modders over at kickinbak were dragging their sorry posteriors through the gutter, saying "We're dead meat when GWX gets here.", "Yeah, they'll just kick us to the curb, why do we even mod?", and the infamous from an unnamed perpetrator, "Subsim is just biased toward U-Boats and GWX. They're bought and paid for." Then out came the new release of RFB and Operation Monsun. Subsim put them both up in the feature spot, and one other I think, bouncing GWX to the third or fourth position.

Feeling vindicated in my position that GWX has no power to kick anybody to the curb even if they wanted to, and rubbing their noses in their previous claim that GWX gets preferrential treatment, my post called attention to the fact that those modders did get fair exposure from Subsim. Note that I called GWX no bad names. I didn't reflect badly on the GWX product. I didn't characterize them as "hating" anything. It was a harmless, funny comment, showing the error of the kickinback pessimism.

A functional equivalent would have been "Hey guys, if Subsim hates you so much, what are you doing up there on top?" Instead I said it indirectly in a way that would not have been appropriate at Subsim but was perfectly appropriate for there.

Please refer back to my posts about the "nice fence." There is no opportunity here for me. Opportunity for what?:rotfl::rotfl:Thrusting and retreating? Sounds very interesting in the proper context. I'll take that up with my wife.:up: My attitude toward GWX is that it is installed on my SH3 game.

Just because I encourage the SH4 modders does not imply that I have any hatred toward GWX. I also encourage modders for the ATO, often against antipathy from PTO "enthusiasts."

Counseling response instead of reaction is not the same as being equivocal. After all, I have no power or responsibility either here or at kickinbak. My only tool is persuasion. I can be unclear. I can be wrong. But I won't be afraid to say what's on my mind. Any flak that generates is just the cost of doing business. I'll take any criticism into consideration and apologize where I'm wrong, learn and continue forward.

The GWX Mod Team is not interested in 'kicking' anyone to the curb... but nor should they feel guilty or appologetic for being successful.... and nor should they feel guilty for operating within a setting that produces fine results. (ie: our private modding forums. Public development forums are simply too diffuse and unorganized to produce optimum results.)

Fear leads to anger.

Anger leads to hate.

Hate leads to harm and suffering.

Rocking Robbins, do not think for one moment that your subtle (and frequently baseless remarks... such as your accusation of mod theft by us) pokes and jabs are not recognized for what they are... your effort to deconstruct and demolish... driven by fear that we will engulf all.

[Digital_Trucker]

Hey, I'm a tool-writer (a minor one at that). I can't conceive of a purpose for writing a tool and not sharing it. Tools are meant to be used (not just written for one's self).
This' the 3rd time this is explained on this thread. :p

Say, a modder needs a simple tool for use to help speed he's modding, he makes a very simple and basic tool and he can use it with no problem, because he made it and knows everything about it. Now, if he would release the simple and very basic tool to the community, it would start a 230 paged thread of questions "I cant get it to work!, How it works?, How to do that and that?"

What I mean, is that if a modder makes a VERY simple and basic tool just for himself to speed up the modding process, he shouldnt be obligated to share it with the community if he doesnt want to, for the simple reason that it would cause a huge flow of support requests.

It just wouldnt be worth it me thinks.


If you're going to quote me please don't take a tiny part of the answer to KLs question and attempt to tear it apart and "explain" to me again.

I perfectly well understand how you and others feel about sharing hard work and taking the time to help. There seem to be two schools of thought here. "What can I/we do to help" and "I/we don't have the time". You'll have to guess which I believe in.

Don't even apologize, I'm probably taking everything wrong again? :p

My apologies for trying to answer the mans question as to why I felt the way I did.

My apologies for feeling the way I do and for it not matching up with your views.

My apologies for making not making myself clear.

My apologies for not speaking every freaking language in the world so you can understand me (why can't we be having this conversation in German:p)

My apologies for making so many apologies.

Have I forgotten anything to apologize for?:rotfl:

[AVGWarhawk]

To the Moderators:

Now, before you close ranks and begin to defend brother AVG... I am going to say something drawn from numerous messages to myself, and teamspeak conversations concerning the same.

The following is true of not only the SH4 forums, but of the SH3 forums as well and drawn from MONTHS of activity.

We (The Grey Wolves Mod Team) have been asked many times to hold our fire and let the moderators police our threads.

We've given you every opportunity to be the police.

Apart from direct attention by Neal Stevens, and considerate responses on occasion by Hitman (who has limited availability and no cross-forum influence) we have witnessed that the usual response to complaints registered by GWX team regarding various issues, were met with anti-enthusiasm at best, and were viewed as simple whining, complaining, and nitpicking at worst.

We have respected Neal's wishes to let the police do the policing and the police FAILED.

By Neal's own statement on this thread... GWX rarely initiates conflict... (and we expect that we will be punished when we do) but when NOTHING HAPPENS as a result of legitimate complaints... we will finish the fight.... as we then have nothing to lose.

If an individual takes the time to write up a complaint and shows you where the harm was caused. It is a valid complaint.

Brushing it aside as you have done on a fairly regular basis, removes any respect or influence you may have with us.

The police failed? How about other respected members on this forum as failing to ignore the baiting? Both sides. How many times have I asked you and jimbuna to be stand up guys. 99% of the time you two are as most of the GWX crew are. The other 1% is when you are not. Unfortunte this 1% gets the focus. So please do not lay this all on the moderators and this a$$hole of impartial moderator lap. Legitimate complaints should come in PM or bad post button. This tool is open for all. You, the crew and SH4 modders are partial to blame. We as moderators are left to deal with it and apparently the root cause in your eyes. Nice set of rose colored glasses.

Obfuscate all you like. Your obvious bias, and misgiven sense that I somehow run this forum and/or Subsim.com (along with others like Monolith and Ducimus who have a long-standing axe to grind for me and/or GWX) stink of hate and disinterest in LISTENING to matters you find inconvenient.

Yes, the police failed.

You have chosen to brush aside concerns brought before you and as a result the GWX Mod Team has no confidence in your ability to act fairly. Indeed, you are generally viewed as useless by many of the senior members of the team.

There has never been one concern brought before me via PM with exception of a chat with jimbuna, ONCE. Zero from you. From what I recall we did not get much accomplished. Now as far as bias, comments (something about fleets and the Lithuanina navy) from you and pictures from others would indicate there is a bias with fleetboats(modders) as well. Why, because GWX live, breath, eat and mod uboats. Sounds reasonable and I suspect there would be a bias as well. Please do not deny a bias on your part as well as the crew. Responses with a bias would and are evident in some posts. I think your point on the biased issue is mute.

As far as the team having no confidence in me to act fairly, that is something they have to deal with. Life is not always fair. However, offer of the SH4 uboat forum with a moderator other than myself was on the table. I see Penelope thinks Tak would be good. I think so as well. Such a shame that I'm viewed as useless to the team, in the large scheme of things what the hell does it matter anyway? I'm not here to be your bud or be the team mascot. I'm hear to moderate and find resolutions to the best of my ability. Somehow you have a hard time understanding that.

As I observed and brought to the table before, the GWX team tactics in handling other forum members are atrocius to say the least. This is my problem with the team. We have gone over this before with several members who suffered the rath and for no good reason. But the team refuses to see this and everyone else is to blame. It would seem the team was being inconvienced from my requests as well. All I asked is being a leading members on the forums, the team has a responsiblity to act like adults, not take the bait. Alert a moderator! If you think I would not be fair, RDP is here. So, suck it up KL, there is a FAILURE from the GWX team as well. Take the innocence stance and put it away. The excuse that has been used to death is, "I defend my mates (ignore moderators while doing it)". "I will not sit by and let them bash me." I agree, hard not to do so, but alerting a moderator to close the thread and strike things from the thead, send the offender to the showers is the way to handle it.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Another note that could maybe result in something neat for Subsim.

I've spoken with a number of recognizeable people from Subsim over the last few years via TEAMSPEAK (realtime voice communication program) and have viewed the following strange/paradoxical/unbelievable comments (paraphrased) from those individuals...

"You know, when you talk with Kpt. Lehmann... it turns out he's a pretty reasonable guy."

Ducimus,
AVG_Warhawk,
and
Rockin' Robbins.

It seems you guys have rather short memories.

I am the same person I've always been... and I am still accessible. Jimbuna has posted the info here at Subsim publicly.

The GWX Mod Team has resolved numerous internal misunderstandings via Teamspeak. Maybe such a device could be made for Subsim.

For any interested, and outside real-life obligations, I'll speak to anyone who has the courage to ask and to use their own voice. (Bring a microphone to save us all a huge headache though if you do.)

[Dowly]

Hey, I'm a tool-writer (a minor one at that). I can't conceive of a purpose for writing a tool and not sharing it. Tools are meant to be used (not just written for one's self).
This' the 3rd time this is explained on this thread. :p

Say, a modder needs a simple tool for use to help speed he's modding, he makes a very simple and basic tool and he can use it with no problem, because he made it and knows everything about it. Now, if he would release the simple and very basic tool to the community, it would start a 230 paged thread of questions "I cant get it to work!, How it works?, How to do that and that?"

What I mean, is that if a modder makes a VERY simple and basic tool just for himself to speed up the modding process, he shouldnt be obligated to share it with the community if he doesnt want to, for the simple reason that it would cause a huge flow of support requests.

It just wouldnt be worth it me thinks.


If you're going to quote me please don't take a tiny part of the answer to KLs question and attempt to tear it apart and "explain" to me again.

I perfectly well understand how you and others feel about sharing hard work and taking the time to help. There seem to be two schools of thought here. "What can I/we do to help" and "I/we don't have the time". You'll have to guess which I believe in.

Don't even apologize, I'm probably taking everything wrong again? :p

My apologies for trying to answer the mans question as to why I felt the way I did.

My apologies for feeling the way I do and for it not matching up with your views.

My apologies for making not making myself clear.

My apologies for not speaking every freaking language in the world so you can understand me (why can't we be having this conversation in German:p)

My apologies for making so many apologies.

Have I forgotten anything to apologize for?:rotfl:

Yup, you forgot to apologize for not using common sense. ;) I mean, really, think about it. A modder starts to do something, he goes by the 'trial & error' method most of the time. Let's say it takes him 4 days to get to the result he wants, that makes quite a lot of tries from which I could say in some cases 1/4 are a mix of two or more entries that the modder has come up by accident. How the heck could you even start to explain something like that? :rotfl:(This' an example of my IL2 modding adventures.)

[Kapitan_Phillips]

What's GWX? :88)

[AVGWarhawk]

Another note that could maybe result in something neat for Subsim.

I've spoken with a number of recognizeable people from Subsim over the last few years via TEAMSPEAK (realtime voice communication program) and have viewed the following strange/paradoxical/unbelievable comments (paraphrased) from those individuals...

"You know, when you talk with Kpt. Lehmann... it turns out he's a pretty reasonable guy."

Ducimus,
AVG_Warhawk,
and
Rockin' Robbins.

It seems you guys have rather short memories.

I am the same person I've always been... and I am still accessible. Jimbuna has posted the info here at Subsim publicly.

The GWX Mod Team has resolved numerous internal misunderstandings via Teamspeak. Maybe such a device could be made for Subsim.

For any interested, and outside real-life obligations, I'll speak to anyone who has the courage to ask and to use their own voice. (Bring a microphone to save us all a huge headache though if you do.)

You and the team being reasonable is not the issue here. I spoke with you on TS before and it concerned you part in the ASW ships in GW over two years ago. I praised your efforts were others were crying it was too hard. You thanked me for the support with it. I have one hell of a memory. I think all the team are stand up, but it is the tactics with others when they do not agree that is my concern. I have asked several of the team to be the leaders, not the bashers.

The issue here was solving problems between theaters with this thread. Although we vented some steam, this was the underlying idea of Neals. So, everyone threw everyone else under the bus and we still do not have a sound resolution. Job well done by all. I say that in jest folks.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Well, AVG.

It seems we are at an impasse and readers will simply have to choose who they believe.

Again I see the accusation that I supposedly compared the U.S. Navy's significance in the PTO to the abilities of the Lithuanian navy... without being able to prove it.

(The accusation is CHUM by the way... and TOTAL BS.)

If you'd bother to read my posts you'd see that I've not painted us to be innocent.

I am telling you, as NEAL has already stated... that we are not usually the aggressors in forum conflict.

You say that you've not received a single complaint from GWX teamers? Horsedump. The team's feelings regarding your moderatorship were not created out of thin air... and I personally defended you in private for a long time. (Not that I can prove that I have... because I cannot.)

You made your bed.

[Penelope_Grey]

So, everyone threw everyone else under the bus and we still do not have a sound resolution. Job well done by all. I say that in jest folks.

Very defeatist attitude is that.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=895637&postcount=239

What is wrong with that for an implementable solution?

[bigboywooly]

Aye agreed Pen
Sounds like a plan

[Digital_Trucker]

Yup, you forgot to apologize for not using common sense. ;) I mean, really, think about it. A modder starts to do something, he goes by the 'trial & error' method most of the time. Let's say it takes him 4 days to get to the result he wants, that makes quite a lot of tries from which I could say in some cases 1/4 are a mix of two or more entries that the modder has come up by accident. How the heck could you even start to explain something like that? :rotfl:(This' an example of my IL2 modding adventures.)
I thought we were discussing applications and tools?

By the way, you just described how you did whatever modding feat it was that took you four days and it didn't take that long, did it? In that case, you simply say, "it was trial and error" or "I honestly don't know, but it works:rock:"

Again, back to attitude. Some make excuses, some find solutions or are humble enough to admit that whatever they did was an accident. If one is willing there is a way to accomplish just about anything. When one spends ones time thinking of ways NOT to accomplish something, it will never happen.

[Digital_Trucker]

So, everyone threw everyone else under the bus and we still do not have a sound resolution. Job well done by all. I say that in jest folks.
Very defeatist attitude is that.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=895637&postcount=239

What is wrong with that for an implementable solution?
Well, the last time the man suggested that we were making progress, he was accused of not knowing what the problem was. If I were in his shoes, I would use reverse psychology, too. BTW, does anyone know the meaning of the word JEST?

Edit : AVG, perhaps you should do what I do when I make a jocularity that might not be completely understood. I preface it with a disclaimer that the following is a joke and not intended to get anyone's back up. That way they have no excuse to not read the entire post.

[AVGWarhawk]

Well, AVG.

It seems we are at an impasse and readers will simply have to choose who they believe.


This thread is not about right or wrong. In the long run, that is useless information. The thread is getting everyone on a even keel and enjoying the theater of their choice with out having to worry about others making waves for no good reason other then they like one theater or the other. Penelope said she is sometimes afraid to sign on the forums because of what she might find. I'm sure there are others. That is a problem and we are looking to fix it.

Again I see the accusation that I supposedly compared the U.S. Navy's significance in the PTO to the abilities of the Lithuanian navy... without being able to prove it.

(The accusation is CHUM by the way... and TOTAL BS.)


I'm sure it is CHUM and kind of a funny thought really. Oh well, bickering BS I'm guessing. However, there was some very damning pictures but again, in the long run, useless information.

If you'd bother to read my posts you'd see that I've not painted us to be innocent.


Your post perhaps, some others not on both sides of the fence.

I am telling you, as NEAL has already stated... that we are not usually the aggressors in forum conflict.


Sometimes yes and sometimes no. Second blow starts the fight. Stupid old addage but true. Find a moderator to tie it up.

You say that you've not received a single complaint from GWX teamers? Horsedump. The team's feelings regarding your moderatorship were not created out of thin air... and I personally defended you in private for a long time. (Not that I can prove that I have... because I cannot.)


Well, the other folks here did not come up with feelings for GWX like they have out of thin air either. It certainly was not drempt up over night. I saw it the same way some of the members did, the crew circles for the kill of any member who might step on the crews toes, might ask to use a file or ask a simple question. Sure there are few over the line with the crew but by and by, most not. We have been over that and beaten it to death enough. I do not seem to be getting through on this problem.


You made your bed.

Yours too but I got a California King.

[Rockin Robbins]

The GWX Mod Team is not interested in 'kicking' anyone to the curb a perfect quote of many of my posts at kickinbak. I follow that by saying the they have no power to do so, even if that is what they wished. And if the SH4 modders want to quit, they are the guilty ones for kicking themself to the curb. My goal over there is to encourage them not to quit and convince them that their work can stand up to any kind of comparison without apology. They are talented modders. Some of them have self-esteem issues. Those issues are closely related to creative ability and a lot of the time come with the package.

(...Public development forums are simply too diffuse and unorganized to produce optimum results.)
Your opinion, not shared by many in the SH4 modding community. You have shown that this organization can work well. However, SH4 open source modding procedures also work.

A Story

Once upon a time there was a mythical city named Daytona Beach where all was calm and peaceful, only occasionally interrupted by loud and boisterous car races, which I applaud. And in this fairy city was a mythical newspaper for which I work.

Working in this wonderful newspaper were two hard-working and industrious groups of delivery people. We will call them District 3 and District 5, because that is what they were. They were all great and hardworking people with fabulous customer service.

Now in District 3, everyone folded newspapers inside the depot. They placed their folded and bagged newspapers in trash bins, moved them out to their cars with hand trucks and dumped them into their automobiles.

In District 5 land, things were different. Carriers folded and bagged newspapers on the hood of their automobiles and threw them into the windows. They had a trash bin for every couple of cars and horror of horrors, disposed of their trash in them. They also were very productive and happy.

Until that dark day when our depots were reorganized and District 3 and 5 were deposited into the same building. District 3 people continued to bag their papers inside. The District 5 workers returned their left over yesterdays papers and threw them into the trash bins being used for today's deliveries by District 3.

Out in the parking lot District 5 carriers were upset that they did not have enough trash bins for everyone to have a trash bin.

Do I need to say that there were fights? Who was wrong? Did either culture do something that did not work, or that was not good for all concerned? No. But the mixing of the two cultures brought conflict. Conflict that we district managers had to resolve fast.

Our way of fixing the problem was to ask which group would be more inconvenienced by yielding to the other. We decided that trash cans were for transporting newspapers to cars. There was a dumpster in the parking lot, so the carriers at their cars could roll up their cover sheets and straps and throw them into the dumpster only 30 feet away or so.

Our decision was autocratic. It was not just as it decided in favor of one side over the other. But it worked and happiness was restored to a single depot of hard-working carriers, in a mythical newspaper in a fairy city called Daytona Beach, only occasionally interrupted by loud and boisterous automobile races.

The end




Rocking Robbins, do not think for one moment that your subtle (and frequently baseless remarks... such as your accusation of mod theft by us) pokes and jabs are not recognized for what they are... your effort to deconstruct and demolish... driven by fear that we will engulf all.
I am not a modder. How could you engulf me? I am about as subtle as a jackhammer. Characterization, innuendo, imputing false motives, name calling etc. are no substitute for reasoned argument, of which you are completely capable. I expect more from you.

Hey! You sound just like Ducimus!:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:


I'm getting a brainstorm....has anyone EVER seen Kapt Lehmann and Ducimus in the same place at the same time? It could be like Clark Kent and Superman!

[AVGWarhawk]

So, everyone threw everyone else under the bus and we still do not have a sound resolution. Job well done by all. I say that in jest folks.
Very defeatist attitude is that.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=895637&postcount=239

What is wrong with that for an implementable solution?
Well, the last time the man suggested that we were making progress, he was accused of not knowing what the problem was. If I were in his shoes, I would use reverse psychology, too. BTW, does anyone know the meaning of the word JEST?

Edit : AVG, perhaps you should do what I do when I make a jocularity that might not be completely understood. I preface it with a disclaimer that the following is a joke and not intended to get anyone's back up. That way they have no excuse to not read the entire post.

Quite the contrary Penelope. I'm down with what Tak has here. No problem at all. This is all we were attempting to accomplish so folks like you who do not know what they will find and shy to sign in can rest assured all will be in order. If your good and everyone else seems happy and this is plausible, then let attempt to make it work as best we can.

[AVGWarhawk]

Hey, RR, KL anyone else with initials, close it out.

[bigboywooly]

Nice analogy

But we arent delivering newspapers
For a living
But modding
For free

Lets agree to disagree

You carry on working in the open
So much so I had to PM someone to find out how to add PatrolObjectives
As not documented anywhere I could find

And we will work as we do
Telling someone how something works either in PM or thread

Difference ?

All side track compared to the main show

To STOP all this BS once and for all

[Suicide Charlie]

Holy hell. I sleep for a couple of hours and six pages gets cooked up.

After skimming through most of them it seems that some of you are lossing steam in the pointless bickering and quote fest (Finally... I hope). Others continue to carry on the battle while protecting themselves under the simple pre-text of "answering questions" or "trying to set the record straight."

I believe Sailor Steve's post was probably one that should have been given more attention, but unfortunately got buried quickly. It outlines an inpartial set of observations and simple solutions.

Creating a UBM sub-forum for the ATO/U-boat guys to work and play in is definitely a must. It probably should have been done as soon as the expansion was released. No fault to you Neal or anybody else who has a hand in running these forums. Most forums do just that, they'll create a sub-forum for an expansion or one large forum into two smaller sub-forums.

In the meantime please stop the petty bickering. Stop the point-by-point thesis long argument posts. None of you are winning. None of you will win. The only outcome that will arrive from your continued slap fight is a meltdown of the Silent Hunter modding community. Which you're closing in on because these 15 pages of total crap have already begun to alienate people like me, simple devoted fans of both groups work.

I've lurked these forums for years simply because I love the work that comes out of them. Is that not why you're all here? To expand upon a game and genre that you all love and share the fruits of your labor? Since when did creating mods for the masses to play and enjoy become about any of your personal glory or "I bested so and so" trophy case? If that's what this has become then this community has fallen a long way from its roots.

In a DIY community, which this definitely is, your strength comes from your peers who are both your partners in your industry and your fans. Right now you all seem to be more up to shotgunning both groups.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

...I expect more from you.

I have given you reasoned argument and you have ignored and/or side-stepped it. In so doing you've been dismissive of valid concepts.

@AVG, that may be the most reasonable post I've seen from you all day and it gives me an idea (To contribute towards a solution... after I get something to eat... I'm thinking a flame-broiled burger ought to be easy to find at the moment.:lol: Besides, it will give the GWX/Lehmann haters time to craft their next missiles.)

[Penelope_Grey]

Penelope said she is sometimes afraid to sign on the forums because of what she might find. I'm sure there are others. That is a problem and we are looking to fix it.
Not subsim as a whole, I meant the SH4 parts AVG. The problem as I have seen it is that some people here hate GWX and everything we have stood for / done. I feel too as I have stated earlier and KL stated that protection for GWX team members has been substandard round here, and we have had to take abuse needlessly. We are expected to rise above it, too bad the others wont rise with us.

Basically GWX is expected to set an example and well, sometimes it just cannot be done. Like we have said, we don't go looking to start fights. But we are expected to walk away. We too are also forum members here and quite often tarring with a broad brush has took place.


Well, the other folks here did not come up with feelings for GWX like they have out of thin air either. It certainly was not drempt up over night. I saw it the same way some of the members did, the crew circles for the kill of any member who might step on the crews toes, might ask to use a file or ask a simple question. Sure there are few over the line with the crew but by and by, most not. We have been over that and beaten it to death enough. I do not seem to be getting through on this problem.
What is this!? Have you not looked on the SH3 section lately.. have you not seen the amount of help posts that the team has answered? Also for the record the ONLY person who has ever been denied permission by GWX was racerboy. Nobody else. If they hate me or us as a whole that is their business. I don't expect people to love me or the team I'm part of... nice if they do. But not essential.

Considering all the slaps in the face we have taken as a whole and individually sometimes... it does result in some bad decisions and actions... nobody round here is a saint.

Some people DO have axes to grind against the Grey Wolves for whatever reason... and it drives some people. Frankly, I'm not too proud to say sorry for the things I have done. So here it is, if I as an individual have acted poorly unjustifiedly, then I am sorry.

But I am not sorry for refuting outrageous lies and vicious gossip and subtle digs and jabs that take place.

EDITED last line from The above ^

to

But I am not sorry for refuting outrageous lies and vicious gossip and subtle digs and jabs that have taken place given that support from subsim moderating staff was not efficient enough at getting to the roots of the problem.

[Rockin Robbins]

Nice analogy

But we arent delivering newspapers
For a living
But modding
For free

Lets agree to disagree

You carry on working in the open
So much so I had to PM someone to find out how to add PatrolObjectives
As not documented anywhere I could find

And we will work as we do
Telling someone how something works either in PM or thread

Difference ?

All side track compared to the main show

To STOP all this BS once and for all
:up::up::up::up::up::up::up::up::up::up::up::up::u p:


The following is a joke. Although based on observation it is not intended to offend any named or unnamed offenders. Errr....perpetrators. ummmm....examples? We now join a joke, in progress:

What's with all this posting in blank verse by GWX people? From now on Neal should require all postings by the GWX crew in haiku!

The preceeding was a joke, brought to you be Rockin Robbins, sometime gadfly over at kickinbak and Subsim: not a modder, not an exclusive fleet boater or U-Boater. The joke stated is an individual contribution and any errors, slights, insults, harmful laughter or death is the sole responsibility of Rockin Robbins.

[AVGWarhawk]

Nice analogy

But we arent delivering newspapers
For a living
But modding
For free

Lets agree to disagree

You carry on working in the open
So much so I had to PM someone to find out how to add PatrolObjectives
As not documented anywhere I could find

And we will work as we do
Telling someone how something works either in PM or thread

Difference ?

All side track compared to the main show

To STOP all this BS once and for all

I think we are getting there BBW. Tak has written up some things that look good and I think plausible. In all honesty BBW, I requested a separate forum for the uboats for modding when it arrived a long time ago. However, it was with good intentions that both groups could work together for the common good. No forum created and we have seen the end result this weekend. But, we see over time and I felt from the beginning, personal tastes for each theater are overwhelming large and co-mingling can not work. So, a uboat forum and fleet forum, all modders and members can have their part of the site to do their thing in peace. Just respect the others, help were you can, be a leading member. This goes for both forums.

[AVGWarhawk]

...I expect more from you.

I have given you reasoned argument and you have ignored and/or side-stepped it. In so doing you've been dismissive of valid concepts.

@AVG, that may be the most reasonable post I've seen from you all day and it gives me an idea (To contribute towards a solution... after I get something to eat... I'm thinking a flame-broiled burger ought to be easy to find at the moment.:lol: Besides, it will give the GWX/Lehmann haters time to craft their next missiles.)

The missles are being stowed in the underground bunker. Really KL, we just want to make it right for all. What suggestions you have would be great to hear.

[Penelope_Grey]

With all due respect RR... your posts are huge and often worded confusingly at least from where I sit. I have difficulty understanding what you mean, that analogy about delivering papers? Wha!?

Just say what you mean, direct, clear and to the point.

[Rockin Robbins]

With all due respect RR... your posts are huge and often worded confusingly at least from where I sit. I have difficulty understanding what you mean, that analogy about delivering papers? Wha!?

Just say what you mean, direct, clear and to the point.

Sorry, I was illustrating that conflict can happen when nobody is doing anything wrong. And I thought a story would be entertaining... I considered using Jethro Tull's "Tale of the Hare Who Lost His Spectacles" and recording it. Might have been better.

Hey it worked for Mr Rogers!!!! (just lost the entire group living across the pond)

[Penelope_Grey]

Minor edit to the final line of my previous post
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=895772&postcount=295

[Suicide Charlie]

I like Hiaku's.

Just an FYI, I will be posting my own attempt at a sort of SH Modding Constitution. Please, help me revise it and perfect it. I am not a modder, but I have just as much vested interesting in this as any of you. I want to help fix this and put this disgusting departure from solving a problem behind us.

[AVGWarhawk]

Penelope said she is sometimes afraid to sign on the forums because of what she might find. I'm sure there are others. That is a problem and we are looking to fix it.

Not subsim as a whole, I meant the SH4 parts AVG. The problem as I have seen it is that some people here hate GWX and everything we have stood for / done. I feel too as I have stated earlier and KL stated that protection for GWX team members has been substandard round here, and we have had to take abuse needlessly. We are expected to rise above it, too bad the others wont rise with us.

Basically GWX is expected to set an example and well, sometimes it just cannot be done. Like we have said, we don't go looking to start fights. But we are expected to walk away. We too are also forum members here and quite often tarring with a broad brush has took place.


Well, the other folks here did not come up with feelings for GWX like they have out of thin air either. It certainly was not drempt up over night. I saw it the same way some of the members did, the crew circles for the kill of any member who might step on the crews toes, might ask to use a file or ask a simple question. Sure there are few over the line with the crew but by and by, most not. We have been over that and beaten it to death enough. I do not seem to be getting through on this problem.

What is this!? Have you not looked on the SH3 section lately.. have you not seen the amount of help posts that the team has answered? Also for the record the ONLY person who has ever been denied permission by GWX was racerboy. Nobody else. If they hate me or us as a whole that is their business. I don't expect people to love me or the team I'm part of... nice if they do. But not essential.

Considering all the slaps in the face we have taken as a whole and individually sometimes... it does result in some bad decisions and actions... nobody round here is a saint.

Some people DO have axes to grind against the Grey Wolves for whatever reason... and it drives some people. Frankly, I'm not too proud to say sorry for the things I have done. So here it is, if I as an individual have acted poorly unjustifiedly, then I am sorry.

But I am not sorry for refuting outrageous lies and vicious gossip and subtle digs and jabs that take place.

We are looking to correct any issues concerning you and anyone else that does not feel welcome in any of the forums. We are looking also to keep it good natured everyday for all. Not getting a friendly reception is just not warranted in any form. You got me on the not visiting SH3 forums. RDP and Seth are there. Under normal circumstances, I do not have to drop by. The fence jumpers however draw my attention if I'm alerted. At any rate and for what it is worth, I did sense some relief from the crew when the last installment was done. Most if not all looked to have some weight lifted or the monkey off their back. I also notices some of the crew showing up in SH4 with helping hands. Privateer, Mikhyl have been around doing some things. In short, I detected a different air about the whole place when the final release was done and on the shelves. But, some of the lingering hard feelings were brewing as well. So, we hope yesterdays and todays throwing under the bus sessions with each other has opened a new door and new forum for the uboats. A bit of understanding of each others goals and hopefully some note sharing to help each other obtain these goals.

[AVGWarhawk]

Minor edit to the final line of my previous post
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=895772&postcount=295

Darn it Penelope, response to your edit. Major lack of modertion consideration when warranted is not refuted. Good to go. We correct today. Use the alert button. Do not let it escalate! As far as your first sentence, I can not say that I blame you one bit.

We good?

[CDR Resser]

This has truly become a lamentable thread. What started out as an attempt at instituting some civility amog the factions here, has degenerated into a tirade of traded accusations and recriminations.

Treat others with the respect that you would like to be treated with yourself.

The level of rancor that has been reached here is truly unfortunate. Someone once told me that when your upset, people get to see with what you are filled. What I have seen here, thus far, has not made me proud. It seems a solution is farther away than when this nonsense was started, and it was not started simply with this thread.

I'm going to ride this storm out at test depth. When the realization that civility and good manners is a requirement for adult company is reached, can someone post a headline. I'm finished here until that time arrives.

Respectfully Submitted;
CDR Resser

[TDK1044]

Having access to the mods workshops here at subsim is a privilege not a right. How successful would any modding team be if Neal shut down the mods workshops here at subsim and the Ubi forum was then their only outlet? They could of course create their own mods website and have total Admin control over it. My money says they still wouldn't be happy though.

The subsim moderators can always learn new ways of improving the moderation process, but it's a two way street. The kind of petulent nonsense that has taken place here makes me think that what we actually need is a Kindergarten Forum not a separatute U Boat Mod Forum.

[Mush Martin]

This has truly become a lamentable thread. I'm finished here until that time arrives.
Respectfully Submitted;
CDR Resser


:|\\Halleluljah! and seconded.

[Rockin Robbins]

Go for it! However please coordinate with the moderators as well. Although we have a sense of belonging, it is Neal's and their forum.

It appears that they miscalculated by combining U-Boat and fleet boat modding into the same forum. I don't think they should be blamed for that. They chose a reasonable course of action and it didn't work. They are now choosing another course of action.

I predict that we will be happy with what they do.

Sheesh, I've never been on KL's bad side before! I'm crushed. Time for a good steak. I have no power or desire to harm or destroy Kapt Lehmann, GWX, U-Boats or blank verse. Neither has he the power or desire to harm or destroy RFB, TMO, fleet boats or ice cream machines. We'll kiss and make friends later.

I apologize if anything I have said has been personally offensive to anyone. It was wrong of me to mention GWX theft of NYGM ship damage mode, no matter what I knew to be true, if I was unwilling to produce confidental communications. I will not do that, even to defend my own position. That issue should have been left between the NYGM person and KL himself. The OLC GUI incident is in the Subsim archives, as is Kapt Lehmann's apology, which I believe should be accepted at face value.

We can all make ill-considered judgments and decisions. I think the moderators and BBW are on the right track and I wait for the announcement of their decision, which I will comply with voluntarily and without reservation. I hope others will do the same.

[Penelope_Grey]

Minor edit to the final line of my previous post
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=895772&postcount=295
Darn it Penelope, response to your edit. Major lack of modertion consideration when warranted is not refuted. Good to go. We correct today. Use the alert button. Do not let it escalate! As far as your first sentence, I can not say that I blame you one bit.

We good?

Well ordinarily I'd go away and have a cigar and think about it. But since I don't smoke anymore, I will just have to make a snap decision.... :lol:

A few people who have been largely ignored by most of us, telling all the participants in this thread how awful we are, on the whole I feel they are wrong to blast away.... For several reasons.

Firstly, Air needed clearing. No two ways about it, I used to be all for peace, but last year 2007 I came to a realisation, sometimes to get peace you must be prepared to fight. Anything worth having is worth fighting for. Now there is some crazy logic.

Secondly, I doubt some of the people who were shocked at the goings on here realised the sheer gravity of everything and how much things have been building. Better to expose the issues to the cold light of day than to just bury them and hope for the best.

Thirdly, out of destruction comes new life. From this, a new beginning will be reached and it will be good for me, subsim, members... the lot. There is no point in patching up a decayed house only for it to crumble again... you may as well blow it up and start a fresh... this thread has allowed that to happen.

So what do I think?
1) Tak's 5 point plan is a goer.
2) The anti-GWX ****e has to stop, and in return members of GWX go to the staff who are extra vigilant in keeping things nice.
3) I start smoking again tomorrow.

I believe that progress has been made in the thread here.

[Mush Martin]

My name is Mush I have antagonized and offended several people
here at subsim I did sometimes for good reasons and sometimes for
Impishness.

For My part in the Staining of the social fabric at subsim I am sorry
to my friends

Kevin
Jeff
Mark

to my enemies especially

Todd.

I am sorry I will work tommorow to make your experience at subsim
better, if its within your hearts bear me out in renewed commitment
to friendship.

Regards
Martin

[edit] I left out a bunch but I should include James and Pen

[danlisa]

If you are going to ask for stronger moderation in the future, it would be helpful not to refer to other people's postings as "dribble".

..and yet, a little over an hour ago, someone hiding behind a group nickname posted a direct attack that needs responding to, after numerous requests from moderators to cease the mudslinging, and you see fit to pick up on KL's minor transgression.

So, openly, in front of all to see, I ask you JCC to unmask the mystery poster or delete the post, or is it acceptable for people to now use dulplicate accounts in the midst of a discussion that needs no further duplicity?

[Suicide Charlie]

Just burn the forums down.

[John Channing]

If you are going to ask for stronger moderation in the future, it would be helpful not to refer to other people's postings as "dribble".

..and yet, a little over an hour ago, someone hiding behind a group nickname posted a direct attack that needs responding to, after numerous requests from moderators to cease the mudslinging, and you see fit to pick up on KL's minor transgression.

So, openly, in front of all to see, I ask you JCC to unmask the mystery poster or delete the post, or is it acceptable for people to now use dulplicate accounts in the midst of a discussion that needs no further duplicity?

Gosh... has it been an hour already? How time flies!

JCc

[Kpt. Lehmann]

If you are going to ask for stronger moderation in the future, it would be helpful not to refer to other people's postings as "dribble".

..and yet, a little over an hour ago, someone hiding behind a group nickname posted a direct attack that needs responding to, after numerous requests from moderators to cease the mudslinging, and you see fit to pick up on KL's minor transgression.

So, openly, in front of all to see, I ask you JCC to unmask the mystery poster or delete the post, or is it acceptable for people to now use dulplicate accounts in the midst of a discussion that needs no further duplicity?

Gosh... has it been an hour already? How time flies!

JCc

Wow, another useful post from 'moderator' JCC.

[Mush Martin]

Mush, I'll take a chance... and see if you are as good as your word.

Baby steps KL it starts with Me.:up:

[MONOLITH]

2) The anti-GWX ****e has to stop, and in return members of GWX go to the staff who are extra vigilant in keeping things nice.



'Anti-GWX ****' would stop when there isn't any reason to be anti-GWX. The behaviors of some of the GWX team cannot continue to remain the same, while you insist those around you change. Your team has to change as well. It's a two way street.

The words in this post are exactly the reasons for anti-GWX sentiment...






you and GWX want to be at the top of the pile at the end of the day and you want all the glory for you and your team. To that end you will do anything possible to achieve those means, up to and including:

Running down and belittling those who would dare question anything about your mod (does the name Markshot mean anything to you?)
Tap-dancing around issues and concerns people have (30km visual nodes strike a bell?)
Outright theft of other people's mod work. Hmm...DTB and Observer's NYGM mod work comes to mind... :hmm:Face it, KL: respect is earned, not given. Many people here in the SH4 mod forum do dread GWX coming into SH4 not because of the quality of mod work you have produced, but rather the means by which you have developed, published, and supported your mod work often has reeked of anything but respect. Until GWX shows the type of respect that is expected within this community, with or without a petition/modder's code, etc... many here will continue to look at GWX with a less-than-positive attitude.




And Lehmann...contrary to what you repeatedly claim, just because someone doesn't like you, doesn't mean they don't speak the truth. You dont have much love for me, yet you want others to believe your words to be sincere. You can't have it both ways.

[Penelope_Grey]

Gosh... has it been an hour already? How time flies!

JCc

Why the sarcasm?
Not an unreasonable request to know from whom a post came. In fact, given that following an exhange me and AVG had http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=895808&postcount=310

and things were finally settling down, the anonymous RFB comes along and next thing its back to square 1.

Ok, here goes. Start as we mean to go on. Consider me as of now officially reporting RFB's post.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Mush, I'll take a chance... and see if you are as good as your word.

Baby steps KL it starts with Me.:up:

Okay, but lets not put too much syrup on it, okay?

[John Channing]

If you are going to ask for stronger moderation in the future, it would be helpful not to refer to other people's postings as "dribble".

..and yet, a little over an hour ago, someone hiding behind a group nickname posted a direct attack that needs responding to, after numerous requests from moderators to cease the mudslinging, and you see fit to pick up on KL's minor transgression.

So, openly, in front of all to see, I ask you JCC to unmask the mystery poster or delete the post, or is it acceptable for people to now use dulplicate accounts in the midst of a discussion that needs no further duplicity?

Gosh... has it been an hour already? How time flies!

JCc

Wow, another useful post from 'moderator' JCC.

Could someone please point out where in the FAQ and Rules that is states that multiple accounts are not allowed? I'm not saying it isn't there... I just can't find it.

And look for a pm shortly.

JCC

[Mush Martin]

@KL oh dont worry.... but I would take too sweet over too sour anyday.

besides this place could use a dose of Julie andrews.
here

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e368/MartinPicfix/AAA.jpg

[Penelope_Grey]

2) The anti-GWX ****e has to stop, and in return members of GWX go to the staff who are extra vigilant in keeping things nice.


'Anti-GWX ****' would stop when there isn't any reason to be anti-GWX. The behaviors of some of the GWX team cannot continue to remain the same, while you insist those around you change. Your team has to change as well. It's a two way street.

You know, none of us are stupid. We know its a two way street. In fact, Im questioning your ability to understand the goings on here.

my post here http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=895808&postcount=310
is the summaration of my thoughts on the matter. You think we don't know that things have to change, everybody knows that.

Some people will ALWAYS hate GWX, and you MONOLITH are probably one of them given run ins in the past. Maybe if you had to handle the abuse we have handled you would understand.

Do you want to help? Or keep hunting us down? We are not perfect but neither are the people who have poked us with sticks in the past.

EDITED: To cool down a heated post tone.

EDITED 2: The past is not important, what is important is the future. The only way to clear the pond is to stop kicking up the mud and let it all fall to the bottom.

[MONOLITH]

Why the sarcasm?

With Lehmann telling Neals staffs that GWX has lost respect for them and they don't do their jobs, and their biased, They don't have to be listened too, etc; I'd begin to leak out some resentful sarcasm too.

[CaptainHunter]

I see a new reality show in the making.

[MONOLITH]

In fact, Im questioning your ability to understand reading basic english

Maybe if you had to handle the abuse we have handled you would understand.




Yes, there's certainly no abuse in your post.

I simply pointed out that your list required all of us to stop any 'anti-GWX', yet there's no spot on your list for GWX to not abuse others.

How about you at least meet people in the middle, instead of laying the demands out for everyone else...mimicking Lehmanns usual style.

[Digital_Trucker]

@KL oh dont worry.... but I would take too sweet over too sour anyday.

besides this place could use a dose of Julie andrews.
here

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e368/MartinPicfix/AAA.jpg

Damn, I'm getting fat just looking at that:rotfl:

[Penelope_Grey]

In fact, Im questioning your ability to understand reading basic english

Maybe if you had to handle the abuse we have handled you would understand.



Yes, there's certainly no abuse in your post.

I simply pointed out that your list required all of us to stop any 'anti-GWX', yet there's no spot on your list for GWX to not abuse others.

How about you at least meet people in the middle, instead of laying the demands out for everyone else...mimicking Lehmanns usual style.

2) The anti-GWX ****e has to stop, and in return members of GWX go to the staff who are extra vigilant in keeping things nice.

I edited my post to cool off my tone. Please look up again.

Also you think I don't realise the GWX part of the bargain... look above in the big text.

[KeptinCranky]

I offer my support for Takeda Shingen's 5 point plan.

I suggest it's adopted.

Now, On a personal note, I'd like to make an observation/complaint of my own

In this thread, and elsewhere on this forum, several people have repeatedly referred to "the GWX team" or expressions of this sort in an accusing or derogatory tone, including, I'm sorry to say, AVGWarhawk, a moderator.

By these statements they have also included me, and I don't like it.
I have never, to my knowledge, made a single offensive or inflammatory post on this forum, concerning GWX or anything else.
Conversely, I have also never been personally offended or been accused by any post, concerning GWX or anything else.

until now.

I understand that several members of this forum are at odds with one another for any number of reasons, most of which I don't want to know. They choose to wrangle here. I don't really mind that, I don't have to read those threads, or contribute to them.
I can also see the hostility between groups or teams or however you want to describe them and yes, there is a conflict of "modding philosophies" or "modding culture" this is plain as day.
Quite frankly I don't understand the root cause, and therefore I don't get involved in those conflicts.

What I will not stand for is catching the flak from this conflict simply because I contributed in my own small way to GWX, and am proud to show I did so by using the GWX Crew signature.
These generalisations have to stop, if anyone has a beef with individual(s) I suggest they refer to those individuals. since this is one of the points Takeda Shingen made,
I support his suggested plan.

One other thing, from a players point of view:

None of this wrangling is getting any of you modders anything. If someone visits this forum for the first time looking for a mod for his game, don't you think that player would be discouraged from even looking at any mod if the first thread he runs in to is full of vitriolic flaming. Imagine a first time visitor reading this thread....:o

my 2 cents,

KeptinCranky

[MONOLITH]

The past is not important, what is important is the future. The only way to clear the pond is to stop kicking up the mud and let it all fall to the bottom.



You're absolutely correct.

The problem is, the past you want to forgotten, is all the accusations against GWX for wrong doing.

The only thing you bring forward is "everyone must stop picking on poor innocent us, and all this will get better".


I swear, if someone from GWX who wasn't a sneaky politician with a forked tongue came forward and said "You're right, we really screwed up a few times. The competitive environment got the best of us, but we really want to change and move forward together"; i would become a huge GWX fan.

But instead, we have blame placed on everyone else, Neal's staff is being utterly disrespected - by GWX-, and everyone else is supposed to change while subsim moves forward with more of the same from GWX.

That's the future you want. Sorry, but that's what we already have now.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

In fact, Im questioning your ability to understand reading basic english

Maybe if you had to handle the abuse we have handled you would understand.




Yes, there's certainly no abuse in your post.

I simply pointed out that your list required all of us to stop any 'anti-GWX', yet there's no spot on your list for GWX to not abuse others.

How about you at least meet people in the middle, instead of laying the demands out for everyone else...mimicking Lehmanns usual style.

Give me a break.

Yet more hypocracy from you.

You and your buddy Racerboy have even totally re-written PM's from me in days not so long ago... and you've got the nerve to speak as if you've got everyone's best interests at heart... and comment in other places about how friendly this forum is.

Nonsense, utter nonsense.

When I first came to the Subsim forums, within days Beery had raked me over the coals... sneering down his nose at the newb who had the TEMERITY to question his method. (Now there was a TRUE conflict of interests... no active mod package builder should ever be a moderator.)

While I am thinking about it, I think it is absolutely laughable how a few claim that the SH4 forum is so very different and "more friendly" than the SH3 forums... after the absolute LAMBASTING that SH4 players and prospective modders gave the SH4 devs following release.

Without the platform that they bring... all matters concerning modding for ANY theater in the Silent Hunter Series... are absolutely pointless.

You people should be ashamed how you treat others.

[MONOLITH]

By these statements they have also included me, and I don't like it.

My apologies.

However, the people that are representing GWX in this argument, are citing unity among you. They use the general terms, "we", "us", "GWX".

So other follow suit in response.

Perhaps getting the people GWX has chosen to represent them, to seperate you guys out, would help that issue.

[MONOLITH]

You people should be ashamed how you treat others.

Really?

Go have dinner, I'll be back in 30 minutes with 1000 obnoxious Lehmann quotes.


*fires up the search function*

[MONOLITH]

[... after the absolute LAMBASTING that SH4 players and prospective modders gave the SH4 devs following release.

Without the platform that they bring... all matters concerning modding for ANY theater in the Silent Hunter Series... are absolutely pointless.



Included in those quotes will be YOUR comments about SH4 devs. You should be careful what you accuse others of, when you cannot remember your own actions.

[AVGWarhawk]

[quote=John Channing][quote=Kpt. Lehmann][quote=Mikhayl][quote=RFB Team][quote=Kpt. Lehmann]You asked for one reason why retaining limited access to such a tool should be viewed as acceptable.

I will answer your question with our primary reason:

EDITING


EDITING

ok, I think I have them all. Anyway, KL it is not Beery, that I can assure you.

RFB TEAM POSTING!

Just to be sure gents, Neal allowed this for Swdw. I do not recall the reasons for it but I guess it sounded good to Neal at the time. Faceless? Pretty much. But again, there was some underlying reason for it. Perhaps this would have been nice for the GWX team in their thread? Keeps from individual attack or singling out one person. Kind of late for that now. Maybe it should be abolished? Not sure, up to Neal. Anyway, useless post and not worthy of anyone reading it. Ignore it and deleted.

Just moderating is all!

[Penelope_Grey]

MONOLITH its people like you, exactly like you that cause me and others to Hulk out and try to smash you.

Not this time. Im staying as Dr Banner because Dr Banner can think Logically Hulk can't.

Maybe just maybe after the progress that has been made the staff will stop your insidiousness now while there is still chance.

[AVGWarhawk]

Minor edit to the final line of my previous post
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=895772&postcount=295
Darn it Penelope, response to your edit. Major lack of modertion consideration when warranted is not refuted. Good to go. We correct today. Use the alert button. Do not let it escalate! As far as your first sentence, I can not say that I blame you one bit.

We good?

Well ordinarily I'd go away and have a cigar and think about it. But since I don't smoke anymore, I will just have to make a snap decision.... :lol:

A few people who have been largely ignored by most of us, telling all the participants in this thread how awful we are, on the whole I feel they are wrong to blast away.... For several reasons.

Firstly, Air needed clearing. No two ways about it, I used to be all for peace, but last year 2007 I came to a realisation, sometimes to get peace you must be prepared to fight. Anything worth having is worth fighting for. Now there is some crazy logic.

Secondly, I doubt some of the people who were shocked at the goings on here realised the sheer gravity of everything and how much things have been building. Better to expose the issues to the cold light of day than to just bury them and hope for the best.

Thirdly, out of destruction comes new life. From this, a new beginning will be reached and it will be good for me, subsim, members... the lot. There is no point in patching up a decayed house only for it to crumble again... you may as well blow it up and start a fresh... this thread has allowed that to happen.

So what do I think?
1) Tak's 5 point plan is a goer.
2) The anti-GWX ****e has to stop, and in return members of GWX go to the staff who are extra vigilant in keeping things nice.
3) I start smoking again tomorrow.

I believe that progress has been made in the thread here.

I was doing great up to number 3. Do not put that vile, nasty thing in your mouth. I'm envious that you quit. I'm chugging down a pack everyday.

[Penelope_Grey]

Minor edit to the final line of my previous post
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=895772&postcount=295
Darn it Penelope, response to your edit. Major lack of modertion consideration when warranted is not refuted. Good to go. We correct today. Use the alert button. Do not let it escalate! As far as your first sentence, I can not say that I blame you one bit.

We good?
Well ordinarily I'd go away and have a cigar and think about it. But since I don't smoke anymore, I will just have to make a snap decision.... :lol:

A few people who have been largely ignored by most of us, telling all the participants in this thread how awful we are, on the whole I feel they are wrong to blast away.... For several reasons.

Firstly, Air needed clearing. No two ways about it, I used to be all for peace, but last year 2007 I came to a realisation, sometimes to get peace you must be prepared to fight. Anything worth having is worth fighting for. Now there is some crazy logic.

Secondly, I doubt some of the people who were shocked at the goings on here realised the sheer gravity of everything and how much things have been building. Better to expose the issues to the cold light of day than to just bury them and hope for the best.

Thirdly, out of destruction comes new life. From this, a new beginning will be reached and it will be good for me, subsim, members... the lot. There is no point in patching up a decayed house only for it to crumble again... you may as well blow it up and start a fresh... this thread has allowed that to happen.

So what do I think?
1) Tak's 5 point plan is a goer.
2) The anti-GWX ****e has to stop, and in return members of GWX go to the staff who are extra vigilant in keeping things nice.
3) I start smoking again tomorrow.

I believe that progress has been made in the thread here.
I was doing great up to number 3. Do not put that vile, nasty thing in your mouth. I'm envious that you quit. I'm chugging down a pack everyday.
LOL My quitting is wafer thin right now. My nerves are shot to $h!t. And now MONOLITH has gone to drag up more GWX sins to display...Which will only keep things going.

You know we all know changes have to be made, and apart from RFB whoever that is, and from MONOLITH we were getting somewhere....

Mostly we say that Takeda's got the right ideas. I do at least. I won't speak for everybody, that is not right. But god, the truth is GWX is poked and prodded and yes we fight back... we shouldn't... but we did. We know the pokes and prods have to stop we know we have to back off... and let staff handle it.

FFS we see the way forward... the only roadblock left is MONOLITH who wants to keep his hunt against KL going.

[Digital_Trucker]

While I am thinking about it, I think it is absolutely laughable how a few claim that the SH4 forum is so very different and "more friendly" than the SH3 forums... after the absolute LAMBASTING that SH4 players and prospective modders gave the SH4 devs following release.

Without the platform that they bring... all matters concerning modding for ANY theater in the Silent Hunter Series... are absolutely pointless.

You people should be ashamed how you treat others.


Could you please point out a thread started by the SH4 MOD community that LAMBASTED the devs? I'm not speaking of the general SH4 forum. As you keep repeating, prove it or drop it. I wasn't here when the game was first released, so I'd appreciate being informed of the events that transpired in the past that we'd all like to get past.

And could you please define "you people"? I'd personally like to know if I'm being insulted and should be ashamed. Almost like GWX members would appreciate not being grouped and insulted.

[AVGWarhawk]

Monolith/Penelope, you are going in round and round with no end in sight. Neutral corners please.

[AVGWarhawk]

While I am thinking about it, I think it is absolutely laughable how a few claim that the SH4 forum is so very different and "more friendly" than the SH3 forums... after the absolute LAMBASTING that SH4 players and prospective modders gave the SH4 devs following release.

Without the platform that they bring... all matters concerning modding for ANY theater in the Silent Hunter Series... are absolutely pointless.

You people should be ashamed how you treat others.


Could you please point out a thread started by the SH4 MOD community that LAMBASTED the devs? I'm not speaking of the general SH4 forum. As you keep repeating, prove it or drop it. I wasn't here when the game was first released, so I'd appreciate being informed of the events that transpired in the past that we'd all like to get past.

And could you please define "you people"? I'd personally like to know if I'm being insulted and should be ashamed. Almost like GWX members would appreciate not being grouped and insulted.

DT, the devs were tared and feathered over SH4. However, KL is incorrect in the respect that a lot of folks ventured in and purchased the game only to beat them up. These folks ventured in from SH3. Naturally, new sub game. These folks as well as new comers cracked the nuts of the devs. Most went back to SH3. Some stuck it out and attempted to salvage what they could. It is darn nice game now with the patches and mods. To further that notion, the devs sent out discs and goodies to a select few that did stick with it, defended it and worked with them to clean it up. I can see why, the game was a mess out of the box. I was a happy recipient of that package myself. I received some darn nice things from them. So, I do not buy KL representation in this matter. EVERYONE IS SUSPECT IN THAT CLAIM OF LAMBASTING THE DEVS. End of story.

[Mush Martin]

The roadblock is no one is willing to make an open commitment to
forgive and forget

whats happening looks more like accept new state of things and
remember.


in reality Im no christian by any stretch and I am not really
mary poppins either.

but FFs if KL and I can bury a hatchett which wasnt on either
of our agendas when we got up this morning then why cant the rest of you.

Penny the roadblock seems to me that no one is willing to pay the
price of acceptance and forgiveness.

Pay it Forward, in a day or two new policy will come down
and the bad apples will be culled from the orchard.

as the saying goes give a man enough rope and he will hang himself
everytime.

all parties agreed on stronger enforcement I feel no more is needed
not amnesty resolution or even forgiveness as I spoke of it.
the situation will correct itself.

M

[Penelope_Grey]

Monolith/Penelope, you are going in round and round with no end in sight. Neutral corners please.

He is the one raking things up with the search function AVG and hurling things already done.

I'll do you one better than going to a neutral corner, I will step out of the ring and in the interest of point 2 on my cool post... I shall leave MONOLITH and any other mudslinger to you.

Fair?

[Digital_Trucker]

........ Most went back to SH3. Some stuck it out and attempted to salvage what they could. It is darn nice game now with the patches and mods. To further that notion, the devs sent out discs and goodies to a select few that did stick with it, defended it and worked with them to clean it up. I was a happy recipient of that package myself. I received some darn nice things from them. So, I do not buy KL representation in this matter.
Thanks for the explanation. Thankfully, I wasn't around for most of that. I do remember some pretty nasty stabs in the regular forum. Just for the record, the "community" that I speak of whenever I speak of community are the select few who stuck it out and tried to make the best of it.

Now all I need to know is who the "you people" that KL referred to are.

Edit : I'm well aware of what the typical connotation of "you people" is and that's why I find it's use counter-intuitive to the stated goal of getting past all the conceived prejudice based on association

[AVGWarhawk]

Monolith/Penelope, you are going in round and round with no end in sight. Neutral corners please.

He is the one raking things up with the search function AVG and hurling things already done.

I'll do you one better than going to a neutral corner, I will step out of the ring and in the interest of point 2 on my cool post... I shall leave MONOLITH and any other mudslinger to you.

Fair?

Works for me. :up:

[Mush Martin]

and now for something with less animosity and bloodshed

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=1381715416415851012&q=Ken+Burns+Civil+War&ei=AlRtSJfNHoTU-wGIutmhDw&hl=en

[skwasjer]

Jeez...

My name gets mentioned quite a few times, while I prefer not to even be part of this catfight. Yes, I advocate a free open source community. Yes, I am disappointed some (senior) members don't want to do more on their part (tutorials, walkthroughs). Yes, I can say some members of the GWX team have provided me with useful information, and even a glimps at some of their tools. Yes, they are not selfish by standard, as a team and as a whole.

I also agree the tone of certain SH4 modders are out of line. You are not helping here.

But you know what? As a team you (GWX) also keep fueling this by denying people what tools and knowledge you have in store. So you have this, have that, a zone editor since one or two years, who knows what. I've seen some more tools as ref showed me some. Potentially great tools. I know my stuff. Look at my sig.

I understand the fact that it took a lot of you a long time to learn and discover about the game. But I can say the same. Isn't it a waste of time for people to do the same thing over and over?

All the arguments I've read to not release certain tools are a non-issue to me (like I said earlier). Usersupport? I hardly had to do any. Why? Because people around here are smart. Hell, S3D has NO MANUAL. None. And I may remind you the first 5-6 releases were very crappy ones.

Time constraints? Sure, very possible (I have them too). But there's more coders around here... Why not seek help? An open community, more souls, more talent, better tools, more ideas, etc.

Like I said above, and I hope even the anti-GWX people read this, all isn't so bad as some may think. Not from my experience (please people, read the S3D changelog and look for 'privateer' and 'ref'). I just wish you all to leave this all behind, stop the mud slinging, and work together and as much as possible in public, but not per se exclusively. Keep on helping others out (as you already have), and don't let people feel you have superiority in certain areas. That's where the unfair feeling comes from.

GWX has achieved much, and so they will for SH4 as well. Better bring them in as friends and get them to open up their bucket of tools and knowledge by themselfs then to force them to another forum and demand their tools, don't you think?

Here's my thought of the day...

"I am not pro Uboat, not pro Fleet, not pro SH4, not pro SH3, not pro GWX, but pro Silent Hunter - the game, and I wish everyone would feel the same..."

And it rhimes as well... :88)

Respectfully yours,

[edit] Some edits, I don't want this to sound like an attack at GWX.
[edit2] My post may be a bit confusing as my talk is sometimes directed at some of the GWX crew, and sometimes at SH4 modders, and sometimes to all. Hope you can decipher it, I find it hard to explain in english...

[Kpt. Lehmann]

You people should be ashamed how you treat others.

Really?

Go have dinner, I'll be back in 30 minutes with 1000 obnoxious Lehmann quotes.


*fires up the search function*

Likewise, and a threat of violence by you that was brushed under the rug... (veiled or otherwise, it is what it is)... similar to the same that occurred with BBW some time ago when he collected a threat of physical harm.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=816995&postcount=105

Regardless of its surroundings... you stooped to the lowest of low, Monolith.

Any useful discussion with you is entirely hopeless.


@JCC... in reference to your PM to me:

"Wow, another useful post from 'moderator' JCC
You are really close to the line.

Walk away"

You've already made up your mind and it is rather transparent given the timing of your various saber rattlings that you are yourself biased against anything meaningful I might have to add, and possibly other GWX members. Just as we are about to get to the nuts and bolts of possible solutions, you just had to knock over the apple cart.

To borrow your own words JCC, you have the 'unmittigated gall' to send that PM to me alone after all that has transpired on this thread?

Now as much as you've let Ducimus run at the mouth without doing something about it... (beyond a single paltry five-day brig session) ... if you are going to "ban me" then do so. If you want us to respect your 'authority' then lose the bias. Moderate both sides.

Just three days ago, during a phone conversation with Neal Stevens, he posed an honest question to me. (Maybe it was rhetorical... I'm not sure)
"Maybe it would be beneficial to just open a thread and let everyone bash each other's brains out until they reach common ground out of exhaustion."

My response was, "God, I hope not."

Secondarily, TWICE now without any prodding from me, Neal offered to build a public SH4 GWX DEVELOPMENT forum here at SS.

Both times, without conferring with the GWX Mod team I immediately deflected the idea by stating that such a thing would only benefit GWX... not the ATO community at large. If such a new public forum is constructed, it should be for the entire ATO modding interest relating to the SH4 platform.... not just GWX.

Neal will confirm this on his return.

How's that coming from Kpt. Lehmann the power hungry egotist?

@ Mush Martin... will PM you my email addy. I imagine I'm about to be banned. Will reply to you as soon as circumstance permits.

[Suicide Charlie]

I have an idea. Since none of you can seem to cool it and have even go so far as to insult those who wish to resolve this quietly and quickly I suggest Neal throw you all in the Brig for 24-48 hours. Maybe then you'll stop crying like a bunch of egotistical self-centered brats.

Penelope, I don't know you and I love GWX's work, but if you want your team and peers to get/give the respect you believe you deserve (and rightfully so) then you need to learn to stop trying to get the last word in and refute every little sentence. Make your suggestions for a resolution and be done with it. The only person that keeps things going no matter who brings up what is yourself.

Monolith, the same goes for you, dude. You guys have got to learn that you're both arguing the same thing over and over. You both want respect. You both clam the other doesn't give it. You both claim you want a resolution. And you both are preventing that from happening.

You both want the samething, but you're so blinded by meaningless bantering and quips to see it. It is so frustrating and stupid to see each of you claim that you want peace and quiet, but you say that it is somebody else responsibilty to do their part. WORRY ABOUT YOURSELF. If you guys stopped nitpicking at each other and just let the past be the past and move on this would be fixed already.

There's no reason that the moderators should have to catch flak from any of you in public. We all have biases, but this thread is supposed to move all parties involved toward a nuetral standing and help the moderators in their job.

Nothing is going to change until each of you recognizes your part in this.

[AVGWarhawk]

........ Most went back to SH3. Some stuck it out and attempted to salvage what they could. It is darn nice game now with the patches and mods. To further that notion, the devs sent out discs and goodies to a select few that did stick with it, defended it and worked with them to clean it up. I was a happy recipient of that package myself. I received some darn nice things from them. So, I do not buy KL representation in this matter.

Thanks for the explanation. Thankfully, I wasn't around for most of that. I do remember some pretty nasty stabs in the regular forum. Just for the record, the "community" that I speak of whenever I speak of community are the select few who stuck it out and tried to make the best of it.

Now all I need to know is who "you people" are.

I suspect the 'you people' are the SH4 folks and modders. Again, a biased comment. First day learning the new ropes for all so we let it slide. It was very ugly DT. The UBI forums were much worse. Tar/feathers, drawn and quartered, gutted and then burned at the stake. But, as I stated a select few stuck it out. Some worked with the developers (Leo Vampire/Dave Bunnell saved the devs months of work by his ROW creation and is credited in the Uboat release). A class act by the devs. Dave has passed away as you know. The other select few who added and prodded it along received a nice package from UBI. Sincere appreciation for taking a few shots by others. These shots were taken daily. Defending the game as best that it could be, working out issues, getting a patch or two in the works. It all worked out in the end. It was nice of the modders to help polish it up a bit so the uboat could be introduced. UBI attempting to think of everyone.

[Mush Martin]

Have you ever considered .....

the episode of BSG where they set up a boxing ring
on the flightdeck.

all were welcome to throw there dogtags into the hat
and for as long as the tags were in they or anyone else
could have a go in challenge with who they wanted.

taking it off the flightline and into the ring so to speak.

I think they called it having a dance.

why not a dance thread.

Banished with permissions to stay in dialogue only on one thread with
your opponent until a detente is reached. in this proposal naturally
adversaries would need to resolve and ally to be reinstated.

in effect they would need each other and necessity is the mother
of invention. at that point they would find a way or not.

so I propose a dance thread kept down on the Subsims forum.

the reason being that despite all the detriment in this thread
there is some good in the bloodletting.
:hmm:M

[AVGWarhawk]

You people should be ashamed how you treat others.

Really?

Go have dinner, I'll be back in 30 minutes with 1000 obnoxious Lehmann quotes.


*fires up the search function*

Likewise, and a threat of violence by you that was brushed under the rug... (veiled or otherwise, it is what it is)... similar to the same that occurred with BBW some time ago when he collected a threat of physical harm.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=816995&postcount=105

Regardless of its surroundings... you stooped to the lowest of low, Monolith.

Any useful discussion with you is entirely hopeless.


@JCC... in reference to your PM to me:

"Wow, another useful post from 'moderator' JCC
You are really close to the line.

Walk away"

You've already made up your mind and it is rather transparent given the timing of your various saber rattlings that you are yourself biased against anything meaningful I might have to add, and possibly other GWX members. Just as we are about to get to the nuts and bolts of possible solutions, you just had to knock over the apple cart.

To borrow your own words JCC, you have the 'unmittigated gall' to send that PM to me alone after all that has transpired on this thread?

Now as much as you've let Ducimus run at the mouth without doing something about it... (beyond a single paltry five-day brig session) ... if you are going to "ban me" then do so. If you want us to respect your 'authority' then lose the bias. Moderate both sides.

Just three days ago, during a phone conversation with Neal Stevens, he posed an honest question to me. (Maybe it was rhetorical... I'm not sure)
"Maybe it would be beneficial to just open a thread and let everyone bash each other's brains out until they reach common ground out of exhaustion."

My response was, "God, I hope not."

Secondarily, TWICE now without any prodding from me, Neal offered to build a public SH4 GWX DEVELOPMENT forum here at SS.

Both times, without conferring with the GWX Mod team I immediately deflected the idea by stating that such a thing would only benefit GWX... not the ATO community at large. If such a new public forum is constructed, it should be for the entire ATO modding interest relating to the SH4 platform.... not just GWX.

Neal will confirm this on his return.

How's that coming from Kpt. Lehmann the power hungry egotist?

@ Mush Martin... will PM you my email addy. I imagine I'm about to be banned. Will reply to you as soon as circumstance permits.

Ok, Monolith take the neutral corner. Penelope went for a breather. I recommend you do the same. KL, I agree with your answer to Neal. Have the GWX thread in the open SH4 uboat mod forum. Worked fine before and should work now.

[Mush Martin]

@ Monolith ..... follow the lead dood use the search funtion to find
something you did in the past put it on the table and say apologize
to whoever it was.

How else is it going to move forward.

Regards
M

[Penelope_Grey]

Penelope, I don't know you and I love GWX's work, but if you want your team and peers to get/give the respect you believe you deserve (and rightfully so) then you need to learn to stop trying to get the last word in and refute every little sentence. Make your suggestions for a resolution and be done with it. The only person that keeps things going no matter who brings up what is yourself.
I have done. Right here... http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=895808&postcount=309

As far as refuting every little sentence goes. Wouldn't you if you were in my shoes? If you were part of something that was doing something you loved? I'm not perfect, but I stick up for what I believe in and what I see is right, that is subsim and the rep of the Grey Wolves. Neal himself said that we rarely initiate these fights but we do fight in them that much is true. Nobody in GWX enjoys the fight... but situations have resulted in us having to fight our corner for ourselves and the team as a whole.

I believe in a brigher tomorrow. So much so to the point I said I am getting out of the ring and leaving mudchuckers intent on further GWX bashing to the staff. Not much more as one person I can do. That is what the staff want of Grey Wolves members... that is what I am doing/have done.

I am only speaking to you out of courtesy as you addressed me, not refutation

[Mush Martin]

Ive never been refuted by penny, I would generally consider myself
historically antagonistic of some members of GWX but not a detractor
of the team or there work.

True
M

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Roger AVG, will do.

Have sent you PM in case of my banning by JCC... which I am absolutely willing to accept. Infact I am wondering why I haven't been banned yet, given his threats.

Give me a few minutes to piece together the "good stuff" and I'll get it posted as far as I can unless JCC keelhauls me first.

[bigboywooly]

Are we done here yet ?
Takedas 5 point plan gets my vote :up:

Now wheres those cakes MM posted

[Mush Martin]

Infact I am wondering why I haven't been banned yet
.


Well we all wonder that KL :rotfl:

Curse you all I just spilled my stella:doh:

back later
M

[Penelope_Grey]

Are we done here yet ?
Takedas 5 point plan gets my vote :up:

Now wheres those cakes MM posted

Screw the cakes, I want either a menthol cigarette or a cigar... STAT!!!

STAT...I always wanted to say that word. :up:

Cake will do if the former are not available.

Oh yes and 5 point plan by Takeda, yes:up: I also want to publically thank the guy too for cutting through this thread like he did and giving an answer good for all. Mind you he moderates General topics... This must have been a piece of cake for him! Tee Hee.

Kudos.

[AVGWarhawk]

Anyway, I off for a while. My head hurts. I have a torn rotator cuff and my right hand is now swollen from clicking the damn mouse and using the keyboard all day. Can you keep it nice for a while?

[Kpt. Lehmann]

1) I'll have to go back and look at Takeda Shingen's posts, but in a general sense I agree with his ideas in spirit... specifically I now wholeheartedly believe that given the collective modding power represented by the entirety of the ATO enthusiasts... that a separate and equal modding forum is really the way to go.

2) Since so many people look at the GWX dev team in a negative light and view them as greedy etc... I'll write up a post describing why and how/why the GWX team operates the way it does as best I can in hopes of getting people to understand the team's methodology. It won't be put up for debate, or in a manner designed to insult, as the team exists in an environment that produces consistent results... but again... the hope is that at least maybe people will better understand the team. Some will not like it, but that is okay. The GWX team cannot make everyone happy.

Lost my train... will post more in a bit as I remember them.

[Digital_Trucker]

@MM The only problem I can see with that one is best described by an old running buddy of mine who once told me that "Arguing with a truck driver is like wrestling with a pig in muck. After a couple hours, you realize that the pig enjoys it":rotfl:. I'd never escape.

Seriously, there is value to be gained from bloodletting. After enough is let, the will to cut diminishes.

@AVG I remember making a few posts in defense of the devs at the end of that. Undeservedly, I thought, I was included in that list of folks who were rewarded for sticking with the game and the devs. And yes, I knew exactly who the "you people" were when I asked the question. I only mentioned it, not in it's racial context, but in the context that one standard of behavior is being condemned (prejudging all members of a group) while that exact same standard of behavior is being practiced by the condemner (again, I don't feel like checking the spelling). I just wanted to hear the explanation from KL. I don't know enough to have any axes to grind, I can only see what folks do, not what they did (and try to temper that with the fact that tempers are flared here).

As usual, I type too slow (or is it think too slow), too much happens between beginning of thought and "preview post".

[Penelope_Grey]

Anyway, I off for a while. My head hurts. I have a torn rotator cuff and my right hand is now swollen from clicking the damn mouse and using the keyboard all day. Can you keep it nice for a while?

Sounds painful, take it easy AVG. :up:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

@MM The only problem I can see with that one is best described by an old running buddy of mine who once told me that "Arguing with a truck driver is like wrestling with a pig in muck. After a couple hours, you realize that the pig enjoys it":rotfl:. I'd never escape.

Seriously, there is value to be gained from bloodletting. After enough is let, the will to cut diminishes.

@AVG I remember making a few posts in defense of the devs at the end of that. Undeservedly, I thought, I was included in that list of folks who were rewarded for sticking with the game and the devs. And yes, I knew exactly who the "you people" were when I asked the question. I only mentioned it, not in it's racial context, but in the context that one standard of behavior is being condemned (prejudging all members of a group) while that exact same standard of behavior is being practiced by the condemner (again, I don't feel like checking the spelling). I just wanted to hear the explanation from KL. I don't know enough to have any axes to grind, I can only see what folks do, not what they did (and try to temper that with the fact that tempers are flared here).

As usual, I type too slow (or is it think too slow), too much happens between beginning of thought and "preview post".

I guess with the constant focus on multiple matters today... maybe I'm getting eyestrain.

I can relate with the SH4 devs though in at least a small way. GWX Mod Team members have been called "Nazis" and every other name in the book after GWX essentially went 'mainstream' for lack of a better word. Following the initial release of SH4, HUNDREDS here were punching them in the face. Seeing people calling this forum 'friendly' makes me chuckle on occasion.

[John Channing]

Roger AVG, will do.

Have sent you PM in case of my banning by JCC... which I am absolutely willing to accept. Infact I am wondering why I haven't been banned yet, given his threats.

Give me a few minutes to piece together the "good stuff" and I'll get it posted as far as I can unless JCC keelhauls me first.

And award you the "Victim" status you so wholeheartedly crave?

Ummmmmm... I think not.

But your amazing lack of class is on display for all to see. Publishing a PM is about as low as you can go.



"To borrow your own words JCC, you have the 'unmittigated gall' to send that PM to me alone after all that has transpired on this thread?"



And again you get it wrong. What makes you think that you were the only one to get a warning.


JCC

[Digital_Trucker]

I guess with the constant focus on multiple matters today... maybe I'm getting eyestrain.

I can relate with the SH4 devs though in at least a small way. GWX Mod Team members have been called "Nazis" and every other name in the book after GWX essentially went 'mainstream' for lack of a better word. Following the initial release of SH4, HUNDREDS here were punching them in the face. Seeing people calling this forum 'friendly' makes me chuckle on occasion.
Well, we're all entitled to a little eyestrain. Just another day in paradise for me, since I spend my days in front of a montior either playing games, screwing them up or reading/posting on forums.

My apologies for making you chuckle:p, but the MOD community here, as I know it is/was one of the friendliest on line communities until the addon. Then, as I see it, gradually "attitudes" began erupting (on ALL sides) for whatever reason (be it past or present). As I think I said before (don't remember whether it was wiped out in a rewrite or actually posted:rotfl:) I haven't been around to have any grindable axes, so I can only go by what I see at the present time.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Roger AVG, will do.

Have sent you PM in case of my banning by JCC... which I am absolutely willing to accept. Infact I am wondering why I haven't been banned yet, given his threats.

Give me a few minutes to piece together the "good stuff" and I'll get it posted as far as I can unless JCC keelhauls me first.

And award you the "Victim" status you so wholeheartedly crave?

Ummmmmm... I think not.

But your amazing lack of class is on display for all to see. Publishing a PM is about as low as you can go.

JCC

Depends on how you look at it I guess. It could be that you are simply baiting me instead of making threats. I dunno, but given the apparent one-sided nature/direction of your remarks, the logic is there. You addressed me concerning an incoming PM. You did not address others.

Obviously, you can win any argument or end any discussion with the drop of a hammer. However, I am nobody's 'victim.'

[les green01]

Hands Penelope a Marlboro takes one myself,i put sewers in new houses and repair them means i'm in crap and pee all day long,i dont want to come to my web home and wade in it here,i don't care who starts what or am i interested in it,I just want mods for a figgen game to make that game better i assumed the mods wants the same or they wouldn't be moding them,i'm going start on my 30 pack of beer and a fifth and get falling down hammer and leave this mess anyone else wants to join me can.But i hate seeing subsim go down this route,it use to be a friendly helpful place to the most part.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

les green 01, have a bit of faith... it will get better inspite of our darkest thoughts.

To continue my response to AVG:

3) Bias towards one theater or another wouldn't be such a bad thing if Moderators state their preferences and stick to the moderation of forums that suit that bias. It just works better when you work on the things you are actually interested in. On the same note, as moderators have lives too... I think it may be necessary to expand the moderating staff at SS too for the sake of coverage.

4) We need to be careful not to make knee-jerk decisions and just end up with a fast-fix that still leaves people bitter here. It will never be perfect... but too much speed will bend the shaft. Maybe the decided changes shouldn't be introduced for a couple of weeks or until the end of the month.

5) As I understand it, JCC is a senior moderator interested in the PTO and posesses the power to ban. The same rank and priviledge should be granted to at least one ATO moderator.

6) I actually agree with the idea of quick "cool-it" sessions in the brig/24 hour brig sessions... not sure what you guys want to call it.... but it seems like a cool idea... more as I think of them.

[John Channing]

5) As I understand it, JCC is a senior moderator interested in the PTO and posesses the power to ban. The same rank and priviledge should be granted to at least one ATO moderator.



Wrong again.

On two counts.

JCC

[Kpt. Lehmann]

5) As I understand it, JCC is a senior moderator interested in the PTO and posesses the power to ban. The same rank and priviledge should be granted to at least one ATO moderator.



Wrong again.

On two counts.

JCC

Okay, I get it that you are angry as hell... so am I.

I've just been invited to my (work) partner's house to consume large quantities of whiskey. I'll be happy to fix you one or three. We can pick up where we left off with the war tomorrow. Drinks are on me this time.

Until then, ~SALUTE!~

[Q3ark]

Grow up, the lot of you!!

[Dowly]

Drubken post of the week from Dowly.

This will be an honest to god (like I believe in God anyways) view from my perspective. If someone gets hurt from my statements, I am sorry in advance, that isnt my intention, I'm just being honest. We have 19 pages of "who started it first" debate here and that doesnt lead anywhere.

Kpt.Lehmann: I like you, really. I consider you a friend of mine and there isnt many things I'd like to do more than meet you and buy you a beer. You are a guy who does very long days at work to help others, and still have found the time to lead one of the most successful mod groups in the history of submarine simulations. But, I think you some times take things too seriously, I think it takes an outsider to see how little can get you ticked off. A simple sentence is enough, even if it is something most others would take as a joke or think it is something so small to not even take note of. Relax, dont hang onto every single thing. And some of the parts apply to the GWX team aswell, relax,take it easy, dont stick to every single bit of a sentence that might say something even remotely bad about GWX.

Ducimus: You have a bad tendency of coming into a thread, say something you know will cause trouble and leave before the bullets start to fly. What are you trying to achieve with it? You always say that you want to be an honest and straight person, then how about staying in and taking the hits? Or is this a case of just baiting for fun? I dont know. But to be perfectly honest, I am amazed you havent been keelhauled yet. I dont think the fingers in my hands are enough to count the threads you've come into and started the subtle digs or straight out baiting.

Moderators: Like I've said many many many times, apply bans for the offenders. Not a sissy 24hr bans, that wont do any good, trust me on this one, please. The penalty has to be harsh, a minimum of 7 days is what I propose. Also, I'd like the moderators to communicate with Neal more in cases like the 3 locked threads we had last week. Neal had no idea of them. And no, I dont mean Neal has to be notified of every locked thread, but in this case the fight has been going on for years.

Again, I am sorry if I've hurt someone, that certainly wasnt my intention. Just saying how I see it.

Lastly, I'd propose the moderators to give this thread a BIG lock, making the new SHIVUM mod forum and making it very clear to everyone that baiting, fighting etc. etc. will be punished without warning. I dont see any reason to continue the thread, it has devolved to the usual "one side says this, the other tries to counter it" type of thread.

[AVGWarhawk]

Anyway, I off for a while. My head hurts. I have a torn rotator cuff and my right hand is now swollen from clicking the damn mouse and using the keyboard all day. Can you keep it nice for a while?

Sounds painful, take it easy AVG. :up:

It sucks Penelope. I'm eating Advil like candy for the pain. MRI come Tuesday. I'm thinking at least two torn tendons. Ability to lift the arm does not go over 90 degrees. One wrong move with the arm and I'm on my knees...no joke. These are not tears of joy in my eyes when it happens. Beside, is your arm supposed to make a ripping noise when you move it? Well, not really so I'm guessing it is good and torn up. Not really sure how I did it. Probably surgery forthcoming. Thats fine, I need me arm back! Oh well, enough with my physical ills. How are we coming along here?

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Anyway, I off for a while. My head hurts. I have a torn rotator cuff and my right hand is now swollen from clicking the damn mouse and using the keyboard all day. Can you keep it nice for a while?

Sounds painful, take it easy AVG. :up:

It sucks Penelope. I'm eating Advil like candy for the pain. MRI come Tuesday. I'm thinking at least two torn tendons. Ability to lift the arm does not go over 90 degrees. One wrong move with the arm and I'm on my knees...no joke. These are not tears of joy in my eyes when it happens. Beside, is your arm supposed to make a ripping noise when you move it? Well, not really so I'm guessing it is good and torn up. Not really sure how I did it. Probably surgery forthcoming. Thats fine, I need me arm back! Oh well, enough with my physical ills. How are we coming along here?

We're going to my work partner's house for whiskey.

Feel free to come along. Enough fighting for one day. I know you are a moderator and we can't really be friends and all that... but screw it all for now.

We're leaving now... before he calls me again to tell me to "hurry it up."

As long as you like diesel subs... I'm happy.
I'm off.

[TheBrauerHour]

We are doing great!

<---Just thought being positive would help.



Oh, this thread is full of:

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d61/ernstjuenger321/yesnoyesno.gif

[Mush Martin]

We are doing great!

<---Just thought being positive would help.



Oh, this thread is full of:

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d61/ernstjuenger321/yesnoyesno.gif

That is so rich.........:up::up::up::up:

[John Channing]

5) As I understand it, JCC is a senior moderator interested in the PTO and posesses the power to ban. The same rank and priviledge should be granted to at least one ATO moderator.



Wrong again.

On two counts.

JCC

Okay, I get it that you are angry as hell... so am I



Wrong again.

I've been around these forums longer than most of the people in this thread put together. I have seen this type of foolishness come and go. I have seen the big dogs swagger around like they owned the place, and watched as they faded away into well deserved obscurity.

None of this childishness is worth the effort it takes to get angry as hell.

JCC

[Sailor Steve]

@ Dowly: sometimes your posts while drunk are unintelligible; sometimes they're mean; sometimes they're even ban-worthy.

This one? I was wanting to say something regarding specific people, and just couldn't figure out how to say it. All I can say to you after this post is - let me buy you another drink.:rock:

[Mush Martin]

mmmmmmm good post dowly :shifty:

[Der Teddy Bar]

Kpt,
Concerning the reverse engineering of the NYGM damage models... Prove it. Lets start at the beginning and how I found out that GW had taken my NYGM Ship Damage Mod without so much as asking via a e-mail (Monday, 27th February 2006) from Kpt in which he states that GW are and will be using the NYGM Ship Damage Mod. Note I was never asked and I never gave permission.

TB, Your NYGM Ship damage models are the best in the business currently and as a result will be included in GW along with your reduced density minefields. (Anything that prevents possible CTD's is tops in my book.) It will be my pleasure to fully credit you and/or your team as designer of both mods.

I hope you will take this as a complement and not as an effort to undermine your modding efforts. It certainly isn't intended that way. In a similar vein, I would be a fool if I did not include CCIP's Leigh Lights mod or his Wellington radar fix.

He later continues....
There has been no other mod that has even approached the sinking time issues that you have successfully addressed. TB, your ship damage model is purely and simply a work of GENIUS in my opinion. I am CERTAIN that any many hours went into its development. In actuality, we also felt cornered into using it because of the utterly fake way that ships sink otherwise. We ditched our entire custom ship damage model and much hard work as a result. Furthermore, you have successfully NULLIFIED the deck-gun debate by making it a matter of ammunition/damage output instead of reload-rate. I have been a proponent of this for some time and have been slapped in the face repeatedly by Beery who completely dismissed my seven years of artillery and heavy weapons experience. General artillery concepts DO apply... Also, U-boat deck guns are LIGHT artillery. I think that people in general do not fully understand what it would mean to shoot-up a great big ship with what amounts to a pop-gun. (22 rifle versus floating garbage can if you will... it will sink but will take some time to do so.)

Wow full credit! Now all flattery and credit aside it is clear that there was also no request and no question or doubt that GW was going to use the NYGM Ship Damage Mod.

As of GWX 1.0, the damage models FOR GWX were designed from scratch, totally REMOVING and REPLACING the NYGM damage models.

Neither of you (Rockin Robbins and/or MONOLOTH) were present for the construction of the new GWX damage models and are therefore making accusations based on what someone else told you. Obviously, whoever you listened to certainly isn't concerned about the truth.

The truth of the matter is that OUR MODDERS constructed a tool that allows our damage modellers to adjust damage .zon files in 3D, and their parameters, AT WILL. This is something that the NYGM team never had. They did have a tool, but by the NYGM team's own admission, it was limited in capability.

You (RR and Monilith) demonstrate conversational cherry-picking and obviously intend to warp matters to suit your taste... as others are doing here.

While you are hunting for proof, I'll help you out a bit. Read pages 85-87 of the GWX manual. The GWX damage models were primarily designed/reworked from stock by Vonhelsching, with further adjustments occuring later by Ref and Privateer. Maybe maybe not. But as you had been using the NYGM Ship Damage Mod for near a year it is somewhat of a mute point don't you think?

Then again it is hard for the layman to know as GW, unlike NYGM, do not publish any of the details of their work.

Funny how the 3 man team of NYGM was able to find the time to publish and discuss in great detail our findings in relation to our work and yet the expansive team of GW cannot.

Why did we put so much time and effort into publishing details of and explaining our work? For the betterment of the community as a whole.

[MONOLITH]

TB, Your NYGM Ship damage models .... will be included in GW along with your reduced density minefields.
I hope you will take this as a complement


I would like Lehmann, or anyone from GWX, to explain how just 'taking' something without asking, or permission, is justifiable.

This is after all, one of the important matters trying to be resolved here at Subsim, and important for the community.

How does simply giving credit, justify taking something without permission, particularly when GWX stood so strongly behind a modders code that tries to prevent such misconduct.

I was called a hypocrite in this thread. I was told the accusations against GWX are without foundation. Well, here is the hypocrasy of Lehmann and GWX, and the proof from Lehmanns own mouth.

So please tell the rest of us, how you justify this behavior that is the very core of what tears this community apart.

[bigboywooly]

TB, Your NYGM Ship damage models .... will be included in GW along with your reduced density minefields.
I hope you will take this as a complement


I would like Lehmann, or anyone from GWX, to explain how just 'taking' something without asking, or permission, is justifiable.

This is after all, one of the important matters trying to be resolved here at Subsim, and important for the community.

How does simply giving credit, justify taking something without permission, particularly when GWX stood so strongly behind a modders code that tries to prevent such misconduct.

I was called a hypocrite in this thread. I was told the accusations against GWX are without foundation. Well, here is the hypocrasy of Lehmann and GWX, and the proof from Lehmanns own mouth.

So please tell the rest of us, how you justify this behavior that is the very core of what tears this community apart.

Well I wasnt part of GW then
So cant comment on that
Nor were the bulk of the GWX team

So before you lump everyone in together
Think

DTBs post is directed at KL

I would ask DTB though
Did you say no to the use of the DM when emailed ?
Or just let it go ?

[LukeFF]

Actually, both of my email addresses I use have been banned from kickinbak. This' the open and helpfull SHIV community you all are talking of? :roll:

We've had a problem with spambots using hotmail addresses to sign up at the forums over there, so we've put a blanket ban on hotmail accounts, at least for the time being. You are welcome to join the forum if you want; I will modify the "ban list" so you can register with your hotmail account if you so choose.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Crud, came home early as the whiskey dried up way too quickly.

Regarding your post DTB,

Well, that's almost interesting.... digging up an old private message from over two years ago from the development of the old TGW mod. Only you failed to mention that I fielded a public apology to you and the NYGM team for using the material, even though you had released it for public consumption as an individual mod fileset.

At the time of its inclusion, (and proper crediting following communication with you) we were actually perplexed as to why you'd have a problem with it... given that you even called it a beta... and felt that it would bring further recognition to the NYGM team.

Anyway, I got my butt roasted alive after making that apology. (I'm sure it is in the Subsim archives somewhere. I'm not going to chase it down right now.) For a long time afterwards, you and your teamers did your best to destroy and/or discredit TGW and the later release of GWX.

However, I still kept my promise to you... and and ensured that the damage models created by your team were totally/completely removed (prior to the virtually complete overhaul of "TGW" that became "GWX version 1.0" on December 16th of 2006)... and replaced them with our own original material. You are in a better position than most to see it for yourself as the GWX files are readily available.

We learned from our mistake. Though apparently, it wasn't enough for you... and apparently never will be. Your long-standing condescension towards the GWX mod team is also a matter of record.

Now, since people aren't willing to crack open the GWX manual and read it, I will quote it for you.

(The following has been included since the NYGM models were removed over a year and a half ago.... EXCERPT from pages 85-87)

From the GWX manual:

"The original Grey Wolves (TGW) shared the damage model developed for ―Not Your Grandmother‘s Mod‖ (NYGM), which focused on sinking ships through flooding effects, with a lesser emphasis on critical hits than in stock Silent Hunter III and very little ability to destroy a ship through structural damage. NYGM accomplished this by reducing the probability and effect of critical hits and by giving all merchant
ships 2160 hit points compared to the normal range in stock Silent Hunter III of 250 to 300 hit points, effectively eliminating the possibility that a ship would sink through accumulated structural damage.

This approach achieved its objectives but had some unintended side effects when used in TGW:

• The damage caused by one torpedo was limited to one compartment, so that hitting the same ship compartment with a second torpedo produced only a small amount of new overall damage (compared to a ship‘s total structural integrity) and no additional flooding.

• It was nearly impossible to sink a merchant ship with the deck gun unless a player could consistently obtain hits at the water line. This was not generally an issue in TGW since the deck gun in TGW was highly accurate; however, the introduction of Real World Gunnery in GWX greatly increased the difficulty
of hitting targets (such as a ship‘s waterline) with great accuracy.

• A number of players reported that sinking a ship could take many hours or days, even with multiple torpedo hits. Historical examples of such behavior certainly exist, but these seemed to be historical outliers compared to the number of occurrences reported in TGW."

By all rights, we could remove/strike all specific mention of the NYGM damage models as they no longer exist within the GWX mod files. It was discussed. However, we took a 'warts and all' approach to the developmental history of the Grey Wolves mod, and felt that maybe, the continued acknowledgement of the original NYGM effort concerning damage models was deserved... (For the same reason Ducimus' involvement with the GWX team is also still credited... though he became the thorn in our side. Ironically, I seem to recall that you had your own deep problems with that individual. I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if Ducimus decided to suddenly descend from his throne and hypocritically call for calm and reason now that things are finally moving towards resolution.)

Moving on, the GWX manual (ALL 600+ pages, appendices, search-functions, etc) WERE WRITTEN FOR THE BETTERMENT OF THE COMMUNITY. Furthermore... it demonstrates how EVERY EFFORT was made to educate new AND old players on matters relating to the U-boat War! You've got real nerve (again) implying that we did not explain functions of the GWX mod... RTFM!

There is one fundamental difference between our manual construction and that of the old RUB mod that NYGM is based on. Beery stated directly that RUB was not written for the user... but for the experienced file-handler instead. This attitude really seemed to carry forward with the progression of NYGM. It is NOT the GWX approach.

What is written in the GWX manual, is largely written for the benefit of the end-user... and to compliment that... we put in place an active user-support machine.

Concerning contribution to or betterment of the community... there is certainly more than one way to skin the cat. We have no intention of matching your conditional views on how exactly the community should be served by a mod package. We have our own equally valid views on how to go about doing it.

Finally, as far as crediting goes... there is no other mod team or package that has placed a greter emphasis on proper crediting or the execution of same... available at Subsim today.

Now, if you are honest, you will recall that you released a version of the NYGM manual that was virtually DEVOID of credits and tried to pass it all off with "The included mods are all property of their respective creators" or some such equally dismissive statement... and that was that.

As I recall, you had to make your own apology for that. Apparently, it seems you are not immune to making mistakes... but are intolerant of others who do the same.

Now if you intend to fuss over the splinter in my eye... first pull the branch out of yours aye?

In the end, regardless of whatever we may say... or whatever ancient battle we try to re-fight... the downloads do the talking. The end-user makes his own decision. At the end of the day... I sleep well knowing that we gave our best... and that we really did do everything we could to make up for our transgressions.

[AVGWarhawk]

Ok guys, lets take break from this today. We are going to day 3. I'm locking the thread. If any of the moderators believe they would like to open the thread and monitor the progress, by all means do so. I to not have the time to devote to it until much later on tonight. Feel free to use the PM function to continue any argument or discussion (however you see it). Maybe some resolution will be made between whoever and whoever in doing so.


The thread is for Neal to determine the best course of action. For me, looking in and being a part, I think we ALL need a 30 ban!

[Onkel Neal]

Holy crap I missed something somewhere! I'm not a modder, but I use a lot of them, and am very thankful for the ones I do use. You guys rock, regardless of whether I use your mod or not.

What in the world could have opened such a chasm between everyone? Are we all not here to enjoy the same thing? What happened to the community? How could things have gotten so bad that Neal himself has to come out and tell everyone to get along? Remember why we're all here. It's not about who's better, or who's right and who's wrong. We're all sim-sailors, or in a lot of times real sailors, who enjoy the friendships we've found here. Let's not throw all of that away.

I would not have been able to make it through SH3 and now five patches of SH4 without the help of you guys. I'm not going to mention any mods or names specifically as not to offend someone, just know ALL of you have my greatest respect and admiration, keep up the great work!

We need more guys like this :up:

[Onkel Neal]

Ok guys, lets take break from this today. We are going to day 3. I'm locking the thread. If any of the moderators believe they would like to open the thread and monitor the progress, by all means do so. I to not have the time to devote to it until much later on tonight. Feel free to use the PM function to continue any argument or discussion (however you see it). Maybe some resolution will be made between whoever and whoever in doing so.


The thread is for Neal to determine the best course of action. For me, looking in and being a part, I think we ALL need a 30 ban!

Thanks, Warhawk, good timing. I think this thread has served it purpose well, to let people get their grievances out. We can use this to see where we want to go.

PS: I will use this timeout to address certain parts of this thread.

[Onkel Neal]

@Neal
I'm sorry, but I fear this discussion will never end, as we are many people with all our different opinions, and we can discuss this matter from now and till the end of the world, or at least till ubi gives us SH5, and you'll have to create a SH5 mod workshop. But then it will be SH4 vs. SH5 etc etc :shifty:

Yes, that may be true. We will do our best to manage things but in the end it depends on the individuals involved. Some people are working very hard to earn the title "Banned by Subsim for being a jerk".



Edit: to add some other thoughts.
I don't know if others here view my actions as I view them, but I think as an admin I have tried to be inclusive and patient. I have talked members out of leaving the forum when they thought they were unwanted. No one should leave because another member or a few other members do not get along with them. We will have some friction, that's unavoidable when dealing with people, but it has to remain within the tolerances Subsim is known for.

However, within a large selection of people, there will be some individuals with personality disorders, lack of discipline, or poor social skills. These types will have trouble staying within the forum boundaries and will become more isolated, and this could cause them to act out even further. We will work with everyone as best as we can but neither the moderators or I are professional counselors nor full time nannies. In the end, Subsim has to remain a civil and intelligent place, populated by civil and intelligent people. So if you are banned (keelhauled) permanently from Subsim, you may want to change your online name because most people will recognize that you had to be pretty darn hard to deal with to earn that.

[Onkel Neal]

Hi Neal, in light of your bring two issues post, I decided to go away and have a real good think before I posted. So here goes...


For what its worth, I have every intention of personally cooperating and will gladly behave myself here like I do on the SH3 section. I actually enjoy a game of SH4 but I have felt due to my affiliation that my preseince in SH4 was not welcome by some people, even regarded with suspicion. Which is fine... I can understand how that would happen.

As far as counter-claims go, well, let me just remind the moderators here that all individuals have a right to defend themselves. If somebody makes a claim about me and its false, and no moderator defends me, you can bet your life I will defend myself. There is action and re-action.

Moderators like Channing there, and AVG, need to look at the action as much as you do the reaction. The reaction occurs because you don't handle the actions... you (The moderators.) want to blame others for things getting out of hand? ok... but the phrase passing the buck comes to mind. You lot are involved in this too.

That brings me to the end of my first grievance, moderators here need to do their job properly and stop the baiting and taunting when it starts. If they can't do it, quit. Simple. I've never baited in this forum or intentionally started a fight... I have fought my corner though when I have seen some of the outrageous lies and vicious gossip against myself and or friends... I make no bones about that. I'm no saint, never will be... What I hope so see is the Moderators here will deal with the worm on the hook as well as they do the fish it catches.



hi Pen,

I understand how you feel about "defending yourself". Honestly, it would be nice if incidents were rare enough that no one felt that need, but obviously, this is not the case :) The moderators, including me, cannot be everywhere and see all, cannot keep score of who said what, and who started it. We do try to nip the baiting in the bud, but I've found that usually someone defends themselves too quickly and then a fracas ensues.

(Not directed at you, Pen, just thinking in general). Defending one's self... it's overrated. If someone in traffic shoots you the finger do you chase them down the highway to right the wrong? If you are walking along the street and a small dog is yapping at you from behind a chainlink fence, do you drop to your hands and knees and yap back?

All sides in this think they are right, and expend a great deal of energy trying to prove their case and win over allies. For what end?

[Onkel Neal]

I wonder if a 'chat room' might be a good idea when 'difficult issues' arise. :hmm:

What if a Moderator could set up a chat room, and invite designated guests for a specific day and time, so that those directly involved in an issue could discuss them honestly and frankly in a private environment?



A good idea, I really think a lot of this could be solved via phone conference.

[Onkel Neal]

So if member A says member B is a dork and member B retorts back with your are a dork. Both dorks get the 24 ban. If dork C shows up to support either dork A or B, dork C goes right along with them. Hopefully a 24 hour ban will help dork A, B and C realise they are being dorks and will not do this in the future. Over simplified version but how it would operate non-the-less. Now if member A calls member B a dork but member B refuses the bait, does member B have to sit and take it? Nope, advise the moderator, moderator has a heart to heart with member A. If member A so wishs to continue taunting member B, A gets the ban. Just as there are bullies on the playground, there are bullies here has well. Some of these bullies have friends. We can not tolerate bully tactics nor gang like tactics either.

That's a good idea, may be necessary.

Also, if Member A says something that Member B does not like, and Member B reports it, it is up to the moderator to make the call. Member B does not get an automatic ruling in his favor. Everyone needs to be patient, cooperate with the moderators, and dismiss thoughts that the moderators are "against them" or out to get them. Subsim has a very good reputation and the moderators here are a major factor.

[Onkel Neal]

You are biased against ATO matters and this is proof... your own speech/thoughts:

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f117/KptLehmann/AVGvsNeal.jpg


Actually, I think Warhawk means he wishes there were more fleet boat pictures in the contest, and I agree. I love U-boats but I like variety, too. Unfortunately, we had to use the art we were sent by the contestants. Warhawk may have missed the list of judges*, but again, even though most of the judges were Americans (including one fleet boat curator and three US Navy vets), the judges were selecting from a deck stacked with U-boat images. :ping:





*List of judges
Don Meadows, author Of Ice and Steel (http://www.oficeandsteel.com/index01.htm)
Valerie Stevens, artist
Jeff Edwards, author Torpedo, The Seventh Angel, NavyThriller.com (http://navythriller.com/)
Gudmundur Helgason, uboat.net - The U-boat War 1939-1945 (http://uboat.net/)
Wayne Frey, author Russian Submarines (http://www.subsim.com/books/russian_subs.htm)
Doug "guod" Atkinson, SimHQ (http://www.simhq.com/)
Mike Jones, creator of Aces of the Deep (http://www.subsim.com/ssr/mikejone.html)
Capt. Zeb Alford, submarine captain, Cavalla Historical Foundation (http://www.cavalla.org/alford1.html)
John R. Hindinger, author Rogue Trident (http://www.roguetrident.com/)
Spence Burnham, artist, Submarine Almanac
Andy Mahood - PC Gamer Sim Columnist
Charles Hinman, Director of Education & Outreach, USS Bowfin submarine memorial museum (http://www.bowfin.org/)
Vickie Stevens, artist
Capt. Zeke Zellmer, USS Cavalla officer WWII
Dave Bringhurst, Lead developer Silent Hunter II
R. F. Hoffman, Lt. USNR (WWII)
Peter Toth, Lead Movie Artist, Botond Szalacsi, Lead Designer, Eidos Hungary, Battlestations: Pacific (http://www.battlestations.net/)

[Onkel Neal]

Just burn the forums down.

Ha! We did that last month (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=137681) :rotfl:

[Onkel Neal]

@JCC... in reference to your PM to me:

"Wow, another useful post from 'moderator' JCC
You are really close to the line.

Walk away"

When John PMs you (or anyone) to take it easy, just do it. Please.



Just three days ago, during a phone conversation with Neal Stevens, he posed an honest question to me. (Maybe it was rhetorical... I'm not sure)
"Maybe it would be beneficial to just open a thread and let everyone bash each other's brains out until they reach common ground out of exhaustion."

My response was, "God, I hope not."

Secondarily, TWICE now without any prodding from me, Neal offered to build a public SH4 GWX DEVELOPMENT forum here at SS.

Both times, without conferring with the GWX Mod team I immediately deflected the idea by stating that such a thing would only benefit GWX... not the ATO community at large. If such a new public forum is constructed, it should be for the entire ATO modding interest relating to the SH4 platform.... not just GWX.

Neal will confirm this on his return.


@ Mush Martin... will PM you my email addy. I imagine I'm about to be banned. Will reply to you as soon as circumstance permits.

We are not banning anyone as a result from posts in this thread.

Yes, thankfully I am able to speak to some people by phone, it really helps foster mutual understanding. I occasionally PM people here and and ask their permission to call and talk, it helps speed things up. I wish I could speak directly to each person, but there's never enough time for that.

Although a dedicated ATO SH4 forum may seem like deferential treatment or not, it may be necessary to keep the peace.

[Onkel Neal]

Ok, thanks for your patience, I've caught up with all 393 posts. Many good points, a lot of frustration, some disagreement. I'll digest this and work with you to come up with a path that I hope will help everyone as much as possible.

Neal

[Onkel Neal]

To settle the issues between GW and fleet boat SH4 modders, we are making the following changes.

A separate forum for SH4 ATO mods. GW should post in this forum for their SH4 mods and discussion; fleet boat modders should retain the current SH4 Mods Workshop. Subsim will not disallow all cross posting, but if someone crossposts a slur or rude comment, then we will change their usergroup ID and they will not longer be able to see the opposing forum. After they get out of the brig.

Stricter enforcement of the civility clause of the RADIO ROOM forum guidelines. Starting now, a rigid and assertive enforcement by the moderating team includes immediate brig time for the type of baiting and rude remarks that seems to start the mod fights, with equal brig time for followup retorts and escalating posts, and calling out forum moderators.

Abusing forum moderators will not be tolerated. They have enough to do and do not need to be told they are useless, biased, or other putdowns.

What is a slight, slur, rude comment, flame? Up to the moderator's discretion.

Consider this a fresh start, we are drawing a line in the sand, let old disputes remain in the past. Everyone starts now with a clean record, so it is up to you to keep it that way. No one wants to hear a 3000 word history of a particular piece of a mod that was borrowed/stolen/uncredited. Tell your dog about it, take it up on e-mail, write it in your diary but don't post it here.

This forum will open for posting soon.

thanks
Neal