[REQ]Sub hunting hooks in destroyers

[Foxtrot]

Is it possible to implement sub hunting hooks in destroyers? Such hooks that could be deployed by destroyers on subs to damge them, and to force them to surface.

[Bando]

What do you mean?????

[kv29]

what the.....¡????

[Gigalocus]

this can't be real can it? im just getting a vision of a DD going over a sub, then an admiral with a spear trying to stab the sub :rotfl:

[kv29]

yeah, imagine a big sub hunter boat, once the sub is dead is towed inside and the guys start tearing it apart. you know, sub meat & oil is pricey :arrgh!:

[FIREWALL]

Hi Foxtrot.

It was very real and used in both World Wars. Sailor Steve and alot of older members will be better able to help you out.

And I faintly remember this being brought up awhile back. I think it was on the SH-3 forum.

Hope this was some help.

[Hitman]

It was well used in WW1 AFAIK...as well as fishing nets (No joke!) and also a special device: A mine towed by a clable...if it touched the U-Boot...BOOOM:D

WW1 was more primitive, but as deadly as WW2:yep:

To implement in game the only way I can think of would be adding it to the 3D model of ships so it collides with your sub :hmm:

[Redwine]

Is it possible to implement sub hunting hooks in destroyers? Such hooks that could be deployed by destroyers on subs to damge them, and to force them to surface.
Are you talking abouth those devices into "Below" movie ?

Interesting to have them.... :up:

But... was those hooks real ?

[FAdmiral]

That tactic was used a bit but was not very practical. The hedgehogs
were much more reliable and proved to have much better results...

JIM

[Bando]

I did not know they used tactics like this. I would think they'd use this to get dumped cars from a canal or so.
I do remember an exercise in the navy where small boats were towing barbed wire against divers. It sounds a bit more plausible to me now, I can't imaging this being used on the high seas, but it may well be used in harbour defence.
It's still a bit weird.........

Bando

[Sailor Steve]

Hi Foxtrot.

It was very real and used in both World Wars. Sailor Steve and alot of older members will be better able to help you out.

And I faintly remember this being brought up awhile back. I think it was on the SH-3 forum.

Hope this was some help.
Not me. I've never heard of such a thing. Never read it in any books, and we certainly didn't have anything like that when I was in; but that was 1970. Sorry, can't help.

Did you ever hear my ASROC story?:rotfl:

[Bando]

Did you ever hear my ASROC story?:rotfl:


No

What???

Tell me

[Jmack]

saw the hooks in a movie ... i guess the method is the same of the DC... get the location of the sub and pass over it with the hooks

this is the movie ( its not very good but its not very bad )

here is the trailer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeLUGhCLQkc

http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/41HB9B0DYAL._SS500_.jpg

[vindex]

I would just be happy if destroyers didn't blow up when they rammed me.

"U-571 meets Poltergeist!" -- is this supposed to be a recommendation? Sounds like Snakes on a Plane.

[Hitman]

That movie is ... well I better don't say it:nope:

But the hook and nets were used in WW1, that's for sure. I read it in a book about the german subs in WW1, and it seemed logical at a time when sonar was simply non-existant...

A WW1 sub didn't dive much more than 30-50 metres usually. If you could get it with the hook, simply unstablizing it could cause to lose trim and go down like a stone:hmm: Also, in shallow waters like harbour entrances, it was even easier in depths of less than 20 metres. Fishing nets were widely used:up:

[Bando]

Amazing when you think of it. I mean in those days there probably were a lot of people out there who did not know what a submarine was. So when navy people (well the ones with a tiny bit of imagination) saw the danger it might inflict on them, they'd have to think of ways to get defences up against these subs.
Seen in that light, the idea of dragging hooks, nets and the lot is a logical step.

Nowadays when a sub accidently gets caught in a fishing vessels net it's bad news for the fishing vessel and the legal department of the navy. The sub itself will escape relatively unharmed.

Still.......amazing

[General Tso]

The book Silent Victory mentions this. In one of his patrol reports a captian reported loud scraping noises while they were being worked over by some escorts. He reported the noises as being very scary and speculated that the Japanese were using hooks to snag his sub.

[tater]

Of course in SH4, if such a device were added tot he DDs, the DD would explode violently the second it touched your sub. Your sub would rock nicely, though.

[Foxtrot]

Is it possible to implement sub hunting hooks in destroyers? Such hooks that could be deployed by destroyers on subs to damge them, and to force them to surface.
Are you talking abouth those devices into "Below" movie ?

Interesting to have them.... :up:

But... was those hooks real ?

yeah, I got the idea from that movie. The movie was quite bad, and I was laughing than being spooked

[Argus00]

Of course in SH4, if such a device were added tot he DDs, the DD would explode violently the second it touched your sub. Your sub would rock nicely, though.

lol, yes :rotfl:

[Torpex752]

There were instances where US subs that were in shallow water reported what they thought they were hooks and in the book "War in the Boats" on page 212 it tells of how they were actually dragged by a ship that used some sort of hooks. So its not a fairy tale it was used on ocassion in shallow waters. :)

:cool:
Frank

[Mechman]

Saw the movie in question, and it can't be used as any sort of reference. It also featured a sub with an airlock, and scuba gear for the crew.
As far as the practicality of using hooks, they'd be unable to reach any decent depth, almost impossible to aim, and probably do minimal damage, as the cables would snap before they could do more than scrape the sub up a bit.

[Webster]

this can't be real can it? im just getting a vision of a DD going over a sub, then an admiral with a spear trying to stab the sub :rotfl:

they dont use spears, the capt. is strapped in a chair on the stern with a really big fishing pole lol.

i heard they used steel cables dragged behind the boat that sliced into sub hulls but hooks stopping dry when hitting a sub or anything else for that matter would probably do as much damage to the DD as it would to the sub if it was pulled fast enough to actually damage the sub it hit, i would guess.

[Mechman]

I doubt many destroyers were built to take the shock of snagging a 200 ton sub while doing 20 knots. If the cables didn't snap, it'd just tear the ass end off the destroyer.

[Mush Martin]

Hooks were indeed used by the IJN and some RN trawlers in the early
part of the war.

[Mechman]

But to little actual effect, afor the previously mentioned reasons.
No point in putting it in the game.

[tater]

Wonder if the primary effect wouldn't have been detection via the noise.

You could fake this with a very narrow cone hydrophone with limited range directly aft of the ship. Make it not sensitive to the silent running state of the target if that is possible. Maybe it could be active without a ping noise (or change the ping sound for it to a scraping noise.

Again, the only point here is detection. The trawler would hear the scrape, then immediately drop a DC.

[switch.dota]

Of course in SH4, if such a device were added tot he DDs, the DD would explode violently the second it touched your sub. Your sub would rock nicely, though.
I just realised something: the bow end of a DD is itreated differently than any other portion of a vessel. Why? A DD can eat 10 (yes, ten) torpedoes set to contact and directed right at it's nose. That is, without any sign of damage. Also, as long as you keep away from that nose, ramming isn't really harmful. Example: DD flansk from behind, no time to dodge it. Crash dive then as he is passing over emergency surface. You should be coming up straight into the DD, breaking it apart.

[Mechman]

Wonder if the primary effect wouldn't have been detection via the noise.

You could fake this with a very narrow cone hydrophone with limited range directly aft of the ship. Make it not sensitive to the silent running state of the target if that is possible. Maybe it could be active without a ping noise (or change the ping sound for it to a scraping noise.

Again, the only point here is detection. The trawler would hear the scrape, then immediately drop a DC.

The problem with that is the cost of the detection.
If the sub is 50 feet down, and the chain drags at a 45 degree angle, you're going to need to trail 70 feet of chain just to have a chance of hitting it. Turning, the chain will continue on your previous course until the full length is dragged through the turn, and you'd have to reel the chain in when not in use to avoid making too much noise and catching it on something below. You'd need a large winch to pull it up, as any kind of chain capable of taking that much strain is going to weigh quite a bit, and you'd have to use some heavy duty chain or it'd corrode fast. So, just to have the chance of catching a sub 50 feet down, you'll need about 70 feet of chain, another 100 or so feet to replace it if it breaks, a large winch, some storage spaces that will keep it from rattling around when it's on the deck, and you'd have to almost completely stop to reel it in and stow it. Or, you could just put in a couple hydrophones.
It's completely impractacle, both as a weapon and a detection system. Why bother with chains when you can cram some more depth charge projectors in?

[tater]

I didn't say it was smart :D

There are reports of it, though. <shrug>

Just wonder what if anythign they hoped to accomplish.

tater

[d@rk51d3]

Recently read an incident where a U-boat got caught sneaking past an enemy habour while a convoy was on the way out. They were damaged so badly by DC attacks they sank to the bottom, very much like Das Boot. They reporetd the destroyers dragging chain or cable over the sub in an effort to locate it, however it either wasn't very effective, or they had dropped the sub into a hollow which must have negated any effect.

Either way, they managed to repair the boat and surface after a couple of days and made haste for home.

I've also read that ASDIC made "scratching or scraping" noises over the hull, so perhaps they just assumed it was a chain or cable.

[Mechman]

I didn't say it was smart :D

There are reports of it, though. <shrug>

Just wonder what if anythign they hoped to accomplish.

tater
Waste time and money?
Really, I think that probably most, if not all reports of hooks and chains being used, were wither seaweed or some other underwater debris. That, or as Darkside suggested, a misidentified ASDIC

[Excalibur Bane]

It seems kinda wonky to me, you can't exactly trawl for a submarine that well. It's hard enough doing it with fish, that are attracted to bait. It would take eons to reel the chain in and then come around for another pass. Maybe in a harbor, but I don't think it would be standard equipment at sea. They would be more likely to get themselves tangled on a damn rock or another wreck then a sub :-?

[d@rk51d3]

Still, when you've potentially got 4+ torps aimed up your clacker, you'd probably use whatever you can get your hands on.:88)

[Mechman]

But the chains would require a special refit, and lower your ability to carry actual weapons.

[tater]

Depends. What if the asset in question (reported "hooks") was a net tender? Or even an armed trawler?

I'ts not really worth bothering, sounds like the number of such reports was pretty small.