View Full Version : Personal statement !
Personal statement
I've joined this forum and community for more the 2 years , and been enjoying
this place since then, I remember my starting as a graphic modder and the moment of happiness
and personal realization when I released the first Mod a Leer tga graphic file, it was a very good
sensation, but I learned something quickly, I could not use the others files to change or retouch
in my own mod making without crediting the guys and in most cases ask the guy that built the
mod the permission to use it, but I guess I was always a responsible dude and also a Honest
one as those are my believes.
The so called Modders that when I arrived add already a huge reputation helped
me somehow to understand that, and I quickly got the message, the first thought I had was really
the one that you have when you pop up in a place and see a all group of guys that make
all kind of mods and talk in tech. Terms about changing files like it was so easy as drinking
a beer, and you feel small near by those guys, and most of the time you ask yourself, what the
hell am I doing here, could I really get to the place and status this guys have and learn what they
know...I found that most things are a matter of aptitude, some are good in a mod field and others
in other mod fields, but generally they all come with those little or big modded files that for free
change our way of playing SH without spending a single Cent but the Modem and net account in
our place....I know that is for some hard to understand the word Ethic, but if I change this word for
Honesty, or another like Integrity or maybe Honor, would it be more understandable?!!
Some how During 2 years modding for all of you without asking anything in exchange
I thought that I would never would see a thing or some people being allowed to drag
the name of some valuable and old members of this forum threw the Floor and
above all see that a one time healthy community being slowly devastated on
things that had brought this forum the undoubted
quality that haves now, were is the protection of the guys and work that helped
this forum and Sub Sim in general get to the hight level ground were is right now??!!!
Should then we change now the words Honesty and Ethics for ,Anarchy or
Land of Opportunity and just let the “Wounder Kids” start “Modding” what ever they like using what
ever they want,. I always trusted on my feelings, And I will until I die, cause they showed up to me what road I should take on my life course...
I like Sub Sim but I can't believe what I'm seeing happening here, and ons more I called upon those same instincts and my hart that helped me following the road that my final judgment
dictated... I took the decision, and along you the ones that feel the same I trust that this words will make you think and reach to a conclusion that will suit you better...
What can one do, when confronting a community and its owners total Apathy and I
think lack of protection on the Original Modders that helped the Forum grow in the first place ?!
What is a good final and reasonable agreement so that the one Who fully creates a
Mod see is work at least respected in its Integrity and structure..
What can The Owners do to stop the Mod pillage without hurting the new incoming
future creators...???
What is Honesty?
I believe I know the replies for those questions, but it seems to me that some of us don't!
I can't be in a place that brings and lets drag people like Kpt. Lehmman in the Mud
and watch people now get offensive with GWX team. I feel sad today, and coming here right
now is not just the same as it was some time ago...
If this is what you want, a free style play ground, OK, thats what you get, everybody is
allowed to between the lines insult who ever he wants...
I for example add my part and see no future in a place that allows this kind of remarks to
guys that gave their blood and personal sacrifice to bring this place some new level, I respect
a lot Neal and his stuff, who ever they are, don't know nobody personally but spended among
you guys a lot of time,...
I decided to retire from my sub sim activity's and thats why I'm sad, and also cause I am
very close to the GWX team and Kl, and don't understand why you do not defend the man and protect GW's work a better way...
Threads are opened and created to clarify some stuff, and closed , and reopened , and
closed, and nobody really wants to get wet and jump into the Conning Tower and say or have
the B.... to say ...Hey KL is right!
I also know that some here will twist the wrong way my words just to get what they want,
but really my friends....
...I don't give a damn, so go ahead and twist my words the way you like!
This is my Statement , and defensive action of support for Kpt Lehmman and GWX team.
JCWolf...
Sailor Steve
05-15-07, 04:41 PM
I don't know what to say. I'm confused, I don't know exactly which threads you're refering to; I have my suspicions, but I understand why you didn't want to be more specific.
I personally support everybody who puts out that much heart, soul and work into making these games better. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "dragging people through the mud". I don't normally defend or condemn too quickly because I'm not involved in the modding, and I don't know exactly what opinion to express when people start arguing about theft and other similar accusations.
I appreciate the work you yourself have done, and will try to understand what you're feeling. Other than that, I don't know what I can do. I'm not a modder, or an owner, or anything other than a guy who likes it here.
bigboywooly
05-15-07, 04:47 PM
I have come to realise JCW is a very passionate man :up:
And as such likes to speak his mind
Salute JCW
Nice to see you are still hard at work modding mate
I'm really sad to know that you're thinking of leaving us now, mate, I truely hope you're going to reconsider your decision...
IMHO, I think that SS is right : most of us on here are just people who like the work done by the GWX team (that a large majority of us SH3 players respect for their awesome, fantastic, brilliant and hard work)... But personally, even if I think that KL is right, who am I to express my opinion, and to judge the situation better than you team members ? :huh:
I can't even imagine the amount of work you all team members putted into GWX, so what can I do/say ? :hmm:
Please tell me, cause I would be pleased to support you... Same for all GWX fans, I think. ;) :rock:
Kpt. Lehmann
05-15-07, 05:24 PM
JCWolf,
Sometimes, it is tough to stay and deal with all of the crap that can happen.
However, I hope you will change your mind about leaving. This place needs honorable people like you... even if it means standing on an island surrounded by sharks.
I know there is a limit to patience in everyone my friend. I still hold hope though, that some good things will happen... and some rules will put in place to clarify boundaries. The story isn't over yet.
Even in the darkest of days you will at least have the pleasure of knowing who your friends are.
JC! Dont you dare to leave! If you leave, I will get myself keelhauled! Now, you wouldnt want that.... right? :rotfl:
Dont let them bring you down, mate. You've done so much for SHIII and will do in the future. Like Kpt said, please think it over one more time before leaving. :up:
JCWolf,
Sometimes, it is tough to stay and deal with all of the crap that can happen.
However, I hope you will change your mind about leaving. This place needs honorable people like you... even if it means standing on an island surrounded by sharks.
I know there is a limit to patience in everyone my friend. I still hold hope though, that some good things will happen... and some rules will put in place to clarify boundaries. The story isn't over yet.
Even in the darkest of days you will at least have the pleasure of knowing who your friends are.
I think it can happend mate, rules or guide lines can be traced as long
as the people who really can make it happend are willing to apply them,
I really never tought I would be saying this about a group of people or a
community that gave me so much good times and helped me meeting
the Grey Wolves for example, but I really don't bellieve in this place the
way its rooling right now, I bellieve that This place could be preserved
as it is, and merging the recrutings of new users and the protection
of the old ones and the work posted here it can continue growing
without loosing the guide lines or rules that started with...
I bellieve in the SS Work group, and most of all in Neals fine work on
this Forum as he achieved the level others only wish and dream, but
I also bellieve that the road this community is taking right now is
not even close to what I think its Ethiclly correct...
How can we let a "Tomb Raider" style dude just come and go as
he pleases and along on this way in wau out kust allow him to
get the goodies he wants for is personal litlle file experiments,
and later release it as is own, and yet allow this fellow to come
here and insult one or more of the guys that helped this place to
grow as it is...:shifty: :down:
I have a good feeling that in time yea things will get to the track
and back to the road it was before, but during the "Anarchy"
periode some great Modders will desapear on that road, and some
others just get tierd and quit...
Is this what SS whants to have a ghost town...:doh: :-?
I will always bellieve in this>
All For One And One For All
Well I have to give you that the SubSim has been going downhill ever since the SHIV was released and the new people started to pour in. Dont get me wrong here, I do play SHIV. Heck, I've played it more than SHIII lately, so I'm not saying this b/c I'd hate SHIV or something like that. But when that much people join the forums as did when SHIV came out, there were enough of them for some to be rotten eggs. SubSim differs from other forums with it's closeness, everyone pulls the same rope most of the time. While things tend to get a bit heated at times, it's nothing like in the other forums I've been on. And maybe that's the problem, some of the new guys dont have the manners and respect what makes SubSim so great forum.
Kpt. Lehmann
05-15-07, 07:37 PM
JCWOLF!!!
STAND UP STRAIGHT AND LISTEN FOR A MOMENT.
On your signature it says, "ONE FOR ALL AND ALL FOR ONE!"
I think you wear that sig because you understand something about some of the people... and friends... you have met here... will never understand because they cannot see past their own noses... and their own interests of the moment.
I think you wear that sig because you have experienced a spirit of "crew" that cannot be built. It either happens... or it does not happen.
Understanding that spirit of "crew" means that some days your brother helps you stand up... and some days you help him stand up.
Let them hurl their insults and scorn. Let them come. Let them do their worst. Things will change for the better because we will make them change.
There are good men on the bridge waiting for you. NOW YOU GET THE HELL UP THAT LADDER AND RESUME YOUR WATCH STATION, MATE!!!:stare: You are a Grey Wolf... and Grey Wolves don't quit!!! ALLES KLAR???
JCWolf, you've offered me encouragement in times of real-life distress... and I'm not about to let you slip off of the boat. I appreciate the support you are voicing for me here... but you'd hate yourself in the morning if you left your mates to fight the good battle alone yes?
Its okay to have a bad day... Its not okay to quit. Its only depth charges.:|\\ I'm not about to let them even spill the coffee.
Don't let things get to you Mr Wolf (like this name), just do your best & don't take things personally, I try to ignore offensive behavior, and people aren't blind, they can see who the nasties are, and the're really only hurting themselves!:yep:
That said, what brought this on?:-? I have SHIV, but haven't been following things there as I can't run it on my system until I upgrade, was something nasty said there?
Well what ever, don't let the nasties get to you, and above all don't quit, carry on regardless!!:up:
Cheers.
Tho I'm not a modder I can understand the concerns of JC, Kapt. L, Dowly and all the others that have brought us all the great mods and the GWX Expansion for SHIII. I've been away for a funeral and come back to see all this crap going on. Hmmm, is this Seawolves all over again as that's just what's happening. To those that have caused this, have some descency and respect for what others before you have done and give the proper credit where it's due. But above all ask permission first. You didn't spend the long hours putting in hard work, trial and error, nor your own personal feeling and touches to the mods you take and tear apart. Be careful messing with GWX as it will bite you in the a**, and all your work will be for nothing. It's that intricate and technical. Changing just one small thing can ruin many others, and the whole expansion mod it's self will be worthless when you finish mucking with it.
If JC leaves SS, I suppose many other modders will too eventually. I feel the death blow for GWX patches will be a certainty now, but hope that's not the case. I agree SS has gone downhill since SH4 came out and the caliber of a few new members too. I'm in shock at what's happening and I wouldn't expect it from members of this site. You know who you are, so be honest human beings, and quit the crap.
I suspect this thread will be closed just like the others that have legitimate gripes from honest people. Too close them only keeps the flames burning..... longer and hotter than ever. The fire will keep popping up and will spread like a wildfire. If all this isn't settled soon it will ruin things permanently for all and SS will become what the Ubi forums are now.... chaos. And I don't think Neal would take too kindly to that. He's put too much of his time, money and reputation into it to let that happen. If it weren't for him we'd have no place to do the things done for SHII and IV. So out of respect for him I ask that this be resolved by both sides in an agreeable friendly manner.
JC, stay around...we all need you and what you bring to SHIII and GWX. :yep:
At least my mom's funeral went better than what's going on here.
I suspect this thread will be closed just like the others that have legitimate gripes from honest people.Regardless of who or what, when or where, I'm glad threads are closed when they degrade into name calling.
The only time you notice the moderators here is when posts become unfriendly. And all they do is close the thread and say to take it up in private.
I for one am glad they do this.
This whole matter seems like a lot of unnecessary drama to me. I guess it's not about being part of a larger whole and making the game more enjoyable but rather about getting credit and control.
You're modding a game you don't own the rights to and posting the files on a message board viewable by anyone in the world with an internet connection.
No matter what you do after that you'll find you have little control over those files.
I really don't understand why you would want to prevent someone from doing further work on your mods. Whether you like the person or not. Whether you like what they do or not.
No offense friends, but if ego is the only motivating factor behind the work you do you can keep it to yourselves.
I'm off to learn how to mod Age of Empires II. :up:
Kpt. Lehmann
05-15-07, 10:58 PM
...but if ego is the only motivating factor behind the work you do you can keep it to yourselves.
I think there are lots of people who would like to think of it as being that simple... when really all that is expected is common courtesy.
Ask before you take... and recognize the creator(s).
Some may like to attach a nefarious "agenda" to discussions like these... but I will point out that SH3 was full of problems before modders went to work on it... without an SDK.
It isn't too much to ask... to leave that evidence in print with an attached readme.
Drama? No I think not... I do think the only ones screaming "foul" the loudest may have the most to hide.
If you can mod... you can take the time for the courtesy of asking permission to modify another's work if you intend to change and re-distribute it.
Even though we don't always see eye to eye Kap I do agree 100% with what you say.;):up:
I suspect this thread will be closed just like the others that have legitimate gripes from honest people.Regardless of who or what, when or where, I'm glad threads are closed when they degrade into name calling.
The only time you notice the moderators here is when posts become unfriendly. And all they do is close the thread and say to take it up in private.
I for one am glad they do this.
This whole matter seems like a lot of unnecessary drama to me. I guess it's not about being part of a larger whole and making the game more enjoyable but rather about getting credit and control.
You're modding a game you don't own the rights to and posting the files on a message board viewable by anyone in the world with an internet connection.
No matter what you do after that you'll find you have little control over those files.
I really don't understand why you would want to prevent someone from doing further work on your mods. Whether you like the person or not. Whether you like what they do or not.
No offense friends, but if ego is the only motivating factor behind the work you do you can keep it to yourselves.
Amen. Also, everyone knows who did GWX. There was a lot of praise going on in the forums for a long time - and still is - and those who don't know can only be people who don't read the forums - and those won't read the proposed modding "ethic" rules either and don't even care who did what.
Really, guys: If someone takes GWX 1.03, adds a new ship, re-releases it as GWX 2.0 and expects to get credit for that will only be laughed at by this community.
If someone uses something from GWX without crediting you, you can point this out in the forum if this bothers you and people will know. Those who are bothered by that, too, or care about ethics will then treat him accordingly, and those who don't, well, they don't. Frankly, you can't take an already copyrighted SHIII, make a big mod downloadable for it and then start telling people what they may or may not do with the game they bought. No one can, and demanding from the moderators here to modify their ban/suspend rules according to a ruleset proposed in one thread by one person (or team), and if they don't you act like you didn't get your candy only makes things look silly.
People know who did GWX, you left a big mark in subsim modding history with it and got praise for it. You expect to get anything more, you need to strike a deal with Ubisoft, make your mod copyrighted material and sell it.
danlisa
05-16-07, 03:43 AM
......you need to strike a deal with Ubisoft, make your mod copyrighted material and sell it.
That will never happen. GWX was made by the people, for the people. END OF. Besides, I don't think Kpt.Lehmann wants the TAX man getting too greedy.:shifty::rotfl:
That said!
ENOUGH Do not let this thread go down the modding ethics/credits route, we have a specific thread for that.
This thread started with a respected member's personal view of the situation around here and a statement of his feelings. JC, I salute you. You wear your heart on your sleeve and you are not affraid to speak your mind. I wish more people here could articulate their feelings aswell as you. I also agree 110% with you.
I too, however, ask you to reconsider your decision. A dead man can't fight. You bring many wonderful things to this community and you will be sorely missed if you leave.
On the subject of support, this community is quick to pat joe bloggs on the back for a mod which improves their enjoyment of SH3 but is very slow in rallying when the chips are down. Regardless of whether you mod, play or lurk, you have an opinion, vote & a voice, USE THEM.
Now, my last words go to KL.
Sir, you are fully supported by myself and many silent others & I know it is an immense struggle for you to devote your time with these annoyances when you have better things to be doing. You are a one man army but your troops are beside you. You/we may be outnumbered but the values that you represent & defend will see us through. It is a nessecary evil that we must endure to see this community remain the best around. Be strong and stay your course, this squall will pass.:up:
JCWolf.
(You know my english is terrible, sorry)
We need people like you, all the community needs it. Subsim is a giant and is very difficult to maneuver. The only way fo all of us is to concentrate in our work, and not to watch what others are doing incorrectly.
But I'm agree with you. Neal and subsim would protect and prioritize what is from long time the real capital of subsim.
Un afectuoso saludo y mucho ánimo.
Mancuso24
05-16-07, 07:02 AM
JCWolf,
Works like GWX are the pillar of our communities and hundreds of your generous hours before the screen are the fuel that bring the sims to new quality levels. That must be understood by any staff. You -the original modders- are the ACE, those who can make things that look like magic for the rest of us. If you fall we all fall so in the 24th Flotilla we take care of our modders and make them feel as comfortable as we can, 'cause we actually appreciate you and your work, absolutely.
Do what you need to do to feel better for better times will come for sure. :yep:
Backman
05-16-07, 07:07 AM
We need you, JCWolf. Subsim needs you, GWX developers, You´ve reached a higher level in modding and without asking for anything in excahange. This is greatness...
The 24th Flotilla supports, guys.
Un abrazo, JCWolf. A ti y a todos quienes habeís convertido SH3 en lo que es hoy.
fumblyoldcarpenter
05-16-07, 07:13 AM
We need you, JCWolf. Subsim needs you, GWX developers, You´ve reached a higher level in modding and without asking for anything in excahange. This is greatness...
jcwolf, I have seen your work, awsome stuff, great web-site as well:up: GWX folks, great supermod. We need to support you jcwolf, and future modders as well. Down the road I see a SH4 supermod as well. It may very well be the work of new folks trying to get the most out of that game.
Only as a united community can we make the gaming experience and this site the best it can be. Hopefully you will stay jcwolf:yep:
fumbly
ReallyDedPoet
05-16-07, 07:22 AM
Stick around jcwolf, we need you:up:
RDP
Yea guys, thanks a lot for the supporting words,
but this is the moment I have choosen to make
my move, and I do love this game and my work
and also this place, and cause of that and the
Apathy from the Sub Sim work group say, they
do not care, or say they are leting things follow
its course, or say they want new blood, ok the
smartes Commercial Manager knows that moving
ahead in a controled movement is the key to a
controled victory, so what I am saying is in fact
simple, SS haves to generate something in order
to keep it moving but if it generates just that
something and desregardes all the rest , the final
result will be as bad as if didn't generated any
primary incom...
This is as far as for me the rong road to go,
and by far not the same road SS was when I
got in the Sub, so everything that might be
left is to motivate your fellow crew buddys and
if not possible move to a new boat in the next
port...
I understand what motivates a modder or a new
one but I also understand what it would bring
is moral down or is will to go on creating new mods...
I salute you all that come in this thread and have
The B.... to say what its rong in your eyes and
speack whats in your harte....
If someone doesn't acept that, all I have to say
is realy simple and directed to those....
What then will you do when happends to you???!!!
vasmann
05-16-07, 08:15 AM
Yea guys, thanks a lot for the supporting words,
but this is the moment I have choosen to make
my move, and I do love this game and my work
and also this place, and cause of that and the
Apathy from the Sub Sim work group say, they
do not care, or say they are leting things follow
its course, or say they want new blood, ok the
smartes Commercial Manager knows that moving
ahead in a controled movement is the key to a
controled victory, so what I am saying is in fact
simple, SS haves to generate something in order
to keep it moving but if it generates just that
something and desregardes all the rest , the final
result will be as bad as if didn't generated any
primary incom...
This is as far as for me the rong road to go,
and by far not the same road SS was when I
got in the Sub, so everything that might be
left is to motivate your fellow crew buddys and
if not possible move to a new boat in the next
port...
I understand what motivates a modder or a new
one but I also understand what it would bring
is moral down or is will to go on creating new mods...
I salute you all that come in this thread and have
The B.... to say what its rong in your eyes and
speack whats in your harte....
If someone doesn't acept that, all I have to say
is realy simple and directed to those....
What then will you do when happends to you???!!!
Hello there.
Please. Tell me what happend???? I don't understand why such great modder like you want quit. Don't do that, please. We need you.
Thank you.
I'll be sorry to see you go, as I would any talented and dedicated modder, and I really don't think you should, but I do think that your statement is a touch on the 'drama queen' side if I'm honest - you wanted honesty, right?
nobody really wants to get wet and jump into the Conning Tower and say or have the B.... to say ...Hey KL is right!
Have you considered that maybe KL isn't right? after all, we are talking about opinions here.
As it happens, I agree with your opinion, but in light of how much flak people take for not agreeing with that position, to me it seems it requires more 'balls' to be on the side that don't think that. You and I may not agree with them, but I at least admire the fact that they take a stance on their position regardless of the personal attacks they've had to endure on many threads. Even if I don't admire their methodology.
If you go, there is one less person around that supports your stance, so if you have been upset and you let that get to you, your leaving will only mean more upset for those who are like you, but will no longer have you around to support them.
As I've got older, I've learned that letting things like this upset you is not worth the hassle, and you should be aware that for anyone who goes against the grain and is less than honest in their ways, if they are seeking glory, praise and recognition, they'll ultimately fail in their aims, as the truth will always out. So why get upset?
Stay in the conning tower, or maybe there'll only be Bernard (or his modding equivalent) left at the con, and you know what that means...
Wishing you'd stick around - Chock :D
poor sailor
05-16-07, 08:35 AM
Sorry to hear that you must to leave this great community. Don't leave,we need your great modding here!
JCwolf,
I can understand well a part of your feelings. But I think it is a fair point to say that subsim forums are not intended be used as a plagiarism prosecutor. This is your home, same as many people's, but it is not a court. You will receive support and encouragement as well as recognizement from the community if your mods get stolen and/or copied, but pretending that the subsim staff gets officially involved in continuous prosecution of cheat-modders is not reasonable. And besides, a guy can have a nick here and behave properly while having another nick elsewhere and go around copying things and offering them in other communities. What would be the next step? Should then Neal Stevens ask personally the webmasters or moderators of those webs to shut the guy because he is copying a mod by a subsim member? What if they are then included by someone a la X1 in a commercial DVD? Does Neal then go and sue them in the real courts?
One thing must be very clear to you: The fact that subsim host these forums and appreciates your work and the work from many modders does not mean it shall get officially and permanently involved in prosecution or punishment of such actions, nor does it mean doing so is letting you down. The community has a gratitude debt with you and the GWX team, same as with many other modders. But Subsim.com is not in debt with you or the GWX team personally, instead it is quite the opposite. We all are in debt with subsim.com for hosting these forums and providing such a blossoming environment for us all, at a cost that exceeds hundreds of dollars a month and much more hundreds of hours of Neal's spare time.
Subsim.com has no obligation to enforce modder's ethic codes, and no one shall feel let down not to receive such support from subsim.com. Period.
Stay here, we all apreciate your work. :up:
Well I have to give you that the SubSim has been going downhill ever since the SHIV was released and the new people started to pour in.
I heard those exact words long ago in the SH2 forum, when SH3 appeared. Though you wasn't yet there to say them ;)
Well I have to give you that the SubSim has been going downhill ever since the SHIV was released and the new people started to pour in.
I heard those exact words long ago in the SH2 forum, when SH3 appeared. Though you wasn't yet there to say them ;)
Yeh, well it takes time for things to settle down to the normal routine as it was pre-SHIV. I'd say only 40-50% of the people who joined here when SHIV came, will stay active at SS, the rest will get bored with SHIV or find another game that suits them better and leave. :yep:
Uber Gruber
05-16-07, 08:56 AM
Honesty......mmmmmMMM...okay, whats all the fuss about ? Mods are great, they really enhance the overall game, and in the case of SHIV actually fix the bloody thing. But a mod is a mod, its a modification that modifies or improves something. The author of the mod should surely get the credit they deserve but lets not get too emotional about it....its just a mod for a game. It has a certain shelf life. Sure some people are bound to use it withough knowing who wrote it, some people are bound to nick bits of it and use it in a new mod, some people will enhance it, some people will moan that it breaks their game. Who cares really ? When its first release to the community the author will get the credit they deserve from notable members of the community, after that its a bit of a free for all because thats the nature of the beast i'm afraid.
Seriously, I really can't understand the level of emotion attached to these mods, they're not living entities. If I produce a mod I do so because something annoys me and needs modding. If I release it to a community then I do so knowing that it will eventually get diluted and flushed down the toilet. I don't need any recognition, if you like it then use it, if not then dont.
I'm sure i'm gonna get flamed here but you asked for honesty and thats exactly what i'm doing. NVDRIFTER recently left this community, he's a great guy like REECE and JCWOLF. His concern was the nature of recent posts in this community. Sure some people's posts are, well, crap and inflamatory, but they're just the dribblings of faceless people. Just chose to ignore them. Any long term community member can easily recognise who are worthy posters and who are not, just filter the trash out.
Again, i'm sorry if i'm being a bit blunt here but this is a simple subsim community and thats all, its not some embodyment of fundamental democratic processes. Its a community of people from all walks of life whoc are interested in subs, who like to play sub games and thats about the size of it.
Less emotion and more modding please.
vasmann
05-16-07, 09:10 AM
Honesty......mmmmmMMM...okay, whats all the fuss about ? Mods are great, they really enhance the overall game, and in the case of SHIV actually fix the bloody thing. But a mod is a mod, its a modification that modifies or improves something. The author of the mod should surely get the credit they deserve but lets not get too emotional about it....its just a mod for a game. It has a certain shelf life. Sure some people are bound to use it withough knowing who wrote it, some people are bound to nick bits of it and use it in a new mod, some people will enhance it, some people will moan that it breaks their game. Who cares really ? When its first release to the community the author will get the credit they deserve from notable members of the community, after that its a bit of a free for all because thats the nature of the beast i'm afraid.
Seriously, I really can't understand the level of emotion attached to these mods, they're not living entities. If I produce a mod I do so because something annoys me and needs modding. If I release it to a community then I do so knowing that it will eventually get diluted and flushed down the toilet. I don't need any recognition, if you like it then use it, if not then dont.
I'm sure i'm gonna get flamed here but you asked for honesty and thats exactly what i'm doing. NVDRIFTER recently left this community, he's a great guy like REECE and JCWOLF. His concern was the nature of recent posts in this community. Sure some people's posts are, well, crap and inflamatory, but they're just the dribblings of faceless people. Just chose to ignore them. Any long term community member can easily recognise who are worthy posters and who are not, just filter the trash out.
Again, i'm sorry if i'm being a bit blunt here but this is a simple subsim community and thats all, its not some embodyment of fundamental democratic processes. Its a community of people from all walks of life whoc are interested in subs, who like to play sub games and thats about the size of it.
Less emotion and more modding please.
Well, I can tell some thing :-), I am not modder, but I understand that for modder his mod it is not "just mod", this is:
- it's own spent time, this the time he/she could spend for his own life,
- this is his own thaughts and his point of view on the game, and we should to honor that
- this is the job he/she made to make OUR gaming fun and we should honor that.
Thank you modders for your great work. Shame on modders that don't credit and just steal other's work.
When you spend ~2yrs of your free time to make 'just a mod', you tend to get a bit emotional over it.
And another thing that I'm ticked off is that first we got huge support from the community, but now people are trying to make us the bad guy and stab us in the back whenever they can. :nope:
vasmann
05-16-07, 09:21 AM
When you spend ~2yrs of your free time to make 'just a mod', you tend to get a bit emotional over it.
And another thing that I'm ticked off is that first we got huge support from the community, but now people are trying to make us the bad guy and stab us in the back whenever they can. :nope:
That's the problem. People take they want for free, and nothing pay for this (I don't mean money, simple thank you or notify in readme is great). People (not all) don't honor other's work and don't know what does it cost to other to make it, it just takes ready stuff - that he couldn't make himself, changes some minor thing and sais It is mine work. This is not correct and amoral. As for me like mod's user - I always read readme and interested how much people worked on mod. And always I can say "thank you guys for a great work", even if it takes 1kb on HDD :-))
Jcwolf, I have enjoyed your and your fellow modder's work and am really sorry to see you go! Please reconsider hate to see the good guys go away.
Don't take it to heart Mr Wolf, the majority of people here have very good morals, the nasties are a minority, we certainly don't want to see the good ones, like yourself, to leave or SS could possably take a dive for the worse!:x
NVDRIFTER recently left this community, he's a great guy like REECE and JCWOLF. Gosh Uber .... I think ... I think ... I'm gonna cry!!:oops::yep: Sniff Sniff!!:cool:
Now Mr Wolf, back to modding, If you have SHIV but love SHIII we could certainly use your help/opinions etc here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=114596&page=2
I think this could be something really great, but have come accross a few problems already.:yep:
JCwolf,
I can understand well a part of your feelings. But I think it is a fair point to say that subsim forums are not intended be used as a plagiarism prosecutor. This is your home, same as many people's, but it is not a court. You will receive support and encouragement as well as recognizement from the community if your mods get stolen and/or copied, but pretending that the subsim staff gets officially involved in continuous prosecution of cheat-modders is not reasonable. And besides, a guy can have a nick here and behave properly while having another nick elsewhere and go around copying things and offering them in other communities. What would be the next step? Should then Neal Stevens ask personally the webmasters or moderators of those webs to shut the guy because he is copying a mod by a subsim member? What if they are then included by someone a la X1 in a commercial DVD? Does Neal then go and sue them in the real courts?
One thing must be very clear to you: The fact that subsim host these forums and appreciates your work and the work from many modders does not mean it shall get officially and permanently involved in prosecution or punishment of such actions, nor does it mean doing so is letting you down. The community has a gratitude debt with you and the GWX team, same as with many other modders. But Subsim.com is not in debt with you or the GWX team personally, instead it is quite the opposite. We all are in debt with subsim.com for hosting these forums and providing such a blossoming environment for us all, at a cost that exceeds hundreds of dollars a month and much more hundreds of hours of Neal's spare time.
Subsim.com has no obligation to enforce modder's ethic codes, and no one shall feel let down not to receive such support from subsim.com. Period.
Stay here, we all apreciate your work.
I understand your point of view Hitman,
but let me clear what real troubles me,
I know that SS and is work group can't
go or lead pssible "Tomb Raiders" suposed
modders or fiction ones to court, and thats not
what I have ment when said what I posted,
I really ment that this is a forum were, like other
users in here say, is used by loads of all over
the world users, ok everyone understands that,
but What about SS protecting the users that
really make this forum work and develop into
the huge recognition that really haves today...
Brother, if you have a guy at your company (example)
that is releasing a new concept Tool or what ever
would you not protect that release and attack or
defend it against possible" Tomb Raiders" that would
copy it and by introducing some slight changes
release it again elsewere as their own work???:hmm:
I would!
This is what I have ment, I think SS as to get wet some
times and defend the truthfull creator Ingenuity and
the guy that creats something from scratch or from the
original SH files, not from others hard work and mostly
without even ask to do it, we no its free, but that
is certanly not the right excuse to Hijack it and
certanly not the excuse to rename it and repost it
elsewere as a new work!!!
I know you ment well with your post, and generaly
I have not even a single complain about the SS
stuff members or Neal or this forum...
But someone haves to remind everyone here about
the lost of genuine work protection and about some
forgoten moral that makes us follow the real goal
here, that is creat Mods and make this place more
and more unique as it is , this is the time to decide
if we will fight against the commom opportunity
seacker that only comes here to spread desagreement
and doesn't really brings nothing new then forum
argueing and division...
Thanks for the words Hitman, you're a truthful gent.!
Honesty......mmmmmMMM...okay, whats all the fuss about ? Mods are great, they really enhance the overall game, and in the case of SHIV actually fix the bloody thing. But a mod is a mod, its a modification that modifies or improves something. The author of the mod should surely get the credit they deserve but lets not get too emotional about it....its just a mod for a game. It has a certain shelf life. Sure some people are bound to use it withough knowing who wrote it, some people are bound to nick bits of it and use it in a new mod, some people will enhance it, some people will moan that it breaks their game. Who cares really ? When its first release to the community the author will get the credit they deserve from notable members of the community, after that its a bit of a free for all because thats the nature of the beast i'm afraid.
Seriously, I really can't understand the level of emotion attached to these mods, they're not living entities. If I produce a mod I do so because something annoys me and needs modding. If I release it to a community then I do so knowing that it will eventually get diluted and flushed down the toilet. I don't need any recognition, if you like it then use it, if not then dont.
I'm sure i'm gonna get flamed here but you asked for honesty and thats exactly what i'm doing. NVDRIFTER recently left this community, he's a great guy like REECE and JCWOLF. His concern was the nature of recent posts in this community. Sure some people's posts are, well, crap and inflamatory, but they're just the dribblings of faceless people. Just chose to ignore them. Any long term community member can easily recognise who are worthy posters and who are not, just filter the trash out.
Again, i'm sorry if i'm being a bit blunt here but this is a simple subsim community and thats all, its not some embodyment of fundamental democratic processes. Its a community of people from all walks of life whoc are interested in subs, who like to play sub games and thats about the size of it.
Less emotion and more modding please.
I ask everybody here to not make of this thread a insult playground,
I know you mean well mate, and I'm preaty sure you will not be flamed
just cause you have speacked your thoughts or mind,
But this is not a state, I mean like California, Texas, a state,
this is a forum, and in any forum, you have to go by his own
rules or guide lines, I was getting to a sensation here that
there was none, due to what happend recently with some
threads, opened by some of the most respected and hard
working guys this community ever had, jus to pin point some facts
and others to pin point some injustices that were flying
on our place ...
You nust bellieve in something in order to fight and defend it,
As I did in my past , in other things and situations I felt
this as to be defended also...
I know every time a new Sim from SH comes out a wave
of incomming new guys pop in the forum and I think
it is healthy that this happend, what I do not agree
and for sure will fight against is that "we" allow
some "Punk" actitude and bad behavior against the
allready here ones...
I do not want to descourage new blood modders,
but I want these guys to understand the road
they are choosing to go and if I can help them
on that road I will, but also I am a huge fun of
everi single modder that is here for a load of
time working and sharing is good will with us
and I think we have the right to protect them all...
I guess this is a matter of hart or not,
I am what I am, and I think respect and loyalty
are very important things as long they are
understood!
Jimbuna
05-16-07, 09:59 AM
What a bloody awful sad day for this community.
How have we ended up where we are now?
Could it be because all manners and respect here have been allowed to slide slowly to an intolerable level?
What has become of the unwritten ethics code around plagiarising others work and verbally abusing them in public?
It is fast becoming 'custom and practice' that someone can rape a mod and feel oblivious to any accountability for their actions.
How can it be that on two separate posts a GWX member can be threatened with a physical assault and there is no intervention by those empowered to do so?
So many have been gifted as a result of some excellent mods yet so many sit idly by and quietly witness what just a few people here seem determined to destroy.
I have always rated this forum...so much so that I'm proud to say I've made donations on several occasions.
What Neal has done for this community is immeasurable and long may it continue.
Sadly....(and I base my comments knowing full well they may be perceived as being subjective)....this is no longer the friendly forum it was.
As a SS forum member, UK law enforcement officer, moderator at the Grey Wolves Den and server admin on the GWX Crew TS server I feel qualified and justified in posting these questions/comments in the fervent wish that a solution equitable and acceptable to all can be found.
Wolves are pack animals normally....one looks like leaving....I'd hate to see the rest of the pack move to a warmer climate....never to return.
@JC
See you over at The Den kaleun
(this post was written in an entirely personal capacity)
What a bloody awful sad day for this community.
How have we ended up where we are now?
Could it be because all manners and respect here have been allowed to slide slowly to an intolerable level?
What has become of the unwritten ethics code around plagiarising others work and verbally abusing them in public?
It is fast becoming 'custom and practice' that someone can rape a mod and feel oblivious to any accountability for their actions.
How can it be that on two separate posts a GWX member can be threatened with a physical assault and there is no intervention by those empowered to do so?
You've hit the proverbial nail on the head Jim. :yep: It's real life flowing over to the computer gaming world. They do it everyday on the streets and at home.... no respect anymore for others. They don't have to follow any laws but do what they want with impunity. They take what they want when they want it and figure no one will stop them or say anything. The last on being threatened is the 3rd time. A former member received death threats by phone. I was witness to that myself.
This past Friday I watched a hit and run in a parking lot. I DID get all the info..... plate # and name on the company vehicle, and the persons description. We even stayed to tell the person the that owned the damaged vehicle what happened. The idiot that did this denied every bit of it according to the State Police. I was asked what the person looked like and age.... I hit it as close as possible without a picture. Was asked if I'd come in an identify the person and said sure. I've heard nothing so far so I figure that person finally came clean and admitted their guilt. Now they're probably out of a job for something that stupid. That's what this world it coming too, and it's showing up on the internet and here.
HunterICX
05-16-07, 10:26 AM
:doh: when I joined this Board a year ago,
I was suprised about the athmosphere, calm and peacefull to be honest.
now because of some mods made SH3 very popular more people hopped in and with the release of SHIV Subsim.com became even bigger.
but it also changed the athmosphere to be honest, especialy since the last releases of Mods for SH3.
Competition between Modding teams is GOOD , as it can push both teams further in developing and discovering things they never seen before, and releases it in a supermod and give it away free to download. to be honest without these spended efforst SH3 wouldnt have grown this big as it is right now. Now I been here just for a Year, and I'm amazed what people have done to work on mayor projects that are mindblowing.
It came to me to notice that besides Modding teams releasing their projects , there is also politics involved. if it civil, I dont mind it is healthy , but when its just plain rude dumb comments, back stabbing and draging mods throught the MUD is just PLAIN RUDE. I dont actually understand the fact ''Why'' do they say such thing.
those comments can do enough that Modders throw their caps on the ground and say ''I've had it I leave'' and sometimes it can be a big loss.
something we all must remember its FREE, yes, the only thing in return is that you respect the hard work as it can be a YEAR of hard work, if you just drag it into the Mud by posting it on a message board because you dont like it and that its for example UNREALISTIC and dont tell WHY it is, sorry dude. if you just deleted it. nobody get hurt. as nobody forces you to download it. you are a free man(oops females too) you can whatever you like with mods and your SH3 game.
Subsim has grown big, the more the merrier I say as long it stays civil and fun.
just my thoughts
HunterICX
What has become of this place?
A couple of years ago when I 'discovered' Subsim this was a nice cozy place where you were welcomed and where people treated each other with respect.
Whenever there was a subject you wanted to discuss, helpfulness from other community members is the first word that pops up.
There were some rippels now and then, but these were exceptions
There was also a lot of modding going on....the modders were held in high esteem and generally people were very grateful of their work.
It felt like what I would call a 'community'; on several occasions I stated that being a part of the Subsim community was good; better than on any other forum.....I love being there.
These days seem long gone:
respect is no longer the norm here, escpecially at the SH IV forums were people are treated like criminals if they dare to ask something that was asked weeks before. Friendliness is almst non-existent.
Maybe it has to do with frustrations over the half-finished UBI 'game''.
Snaring and growling can be found at any page.
Even the modders that made good 'ol SHIII the game it should have been (GWX)are now being attacked and being made to feel like they need to defend themselves, even to a point that some feel the need to leave subsimming altogether.....
Some people that are jealous af the deserved credit they get now start flaming that all their work was stolen...
Maybe this place shouLd get back to the basics of a community, a civilised place where respect and helpfulness are the norm.....
It was like that before, but I fear those days are gone forever!
Salute JCWolf and thanks for all you contributions!
Don't take it to heart Mr Wolf, the majority of people here have very good morals, the nasties are a minority, we certainly don't want to see the good ones, like yourself, to leave or SS could possibly take a dive for the worse!:x
That's true...
Now, what I'm going to say is simple : you have your own conception (and I've the same) of the SubSim community, something like "We're all here to help each other at modding something/supporting other SS members who have to face problems in real life", just as a "Band of Brothers". ;)
In fact, what KL has said is true :
I think you wear that sig because you have experienced a spirit of "crew" that cannot be built. It either happens... or it does not happen.
Understanding that spirit of "crew" means that some days your brother helps you stand up... and some days you help him stand up.
Let them hurl their insults and scorn. Let them come. Let them do their worst. Things will change for the better because we will make them change.
JC, if you want to keep alive this way of thinking/living among us, it's definitelyin your hands...
A friend is a person you know well and regard with affection and trust... And the difference between a true and a false friend, is that a real one can stay with us in a moment of grief. True friends make all the difference in the world.
Now, I think I've said all I want to say, and you have for sure the freedom to do what you want, but I think leaving us now is to go against your friendship principles.
Very respectfully yours,
Alex
CaptainCox
05-16-07, 11:19 AM
I have been reading this thread all day...As a "new" modder here, mainly SH4 am I one of the ppl that is causing this :o ?... or is it something I missed...I know there was tension between Beery and the GWX team, then we had Nvdrifter getting peed off etc, but is there more to this...Sorry, but i don't read all the threads here, even if i try.
If I personally have done something (that i am not aware of) I am truly sorry.
I am wondering as there is alot of talk about the "new" peeps doing SH4 mods.
ReallyDedPoet
05-16-07, 11:26 AM
I have been reading this thread all day...As a "new" modder here, mainly SH4 am I one of the ppl that is causing this :o ?... or is it something I missed...I know there was tension between Beery and the GWX team, then we had Nvdrifter getting peed off etc, but is there more to this...Sorry, but i don't read all the threads here, even if i try.
If I personally have done something (that i am not aware of) I am truly sorry.
I am wondering as there is alot of talk about the "new" peeps doing SH4 mods.
I hope not Captain Cox, because you and some other new members that are working with SH4 are doing a hell of a job. I have seen the threads, you have been nothing but classy in my opinion:yep: I hope a few bad apples don't cause all of SH4 modders to be painted with the same brush.
Just my thoughts.
RDP
Jimbuna
05-16-07, 11:35 AM
Whenever there was a subject you wanted to discuss, helpfulness from other community members is the first word that pops up.
....and non more so than that given by the GWX Crew
There was also a lot of modding going on....the modders were held in high esteem and generally people were very grateful of their work.
Very true.
It felt like what I would call a 'community'; on several occasions I stated that being a part of the Subsim community was good; better than on any other forum.....I love being there.
My sentiments entirely.
These days seem long gone:
respect is no longer the norm here, escpecially at the SH IV forums were people are treated like criminals if they dare to ask something that was asked weeks before. Friendliness is almst non-existent.
Looks like the infection could be spreading.
Even the modders that made good 'ol SHIII the game it should have been (GWX)are now being attacked and being made to feel like they need to defend themselves, even to a point that some feel the need to leave subsimming altogether.....
Sad....but true.
Some people that are jealous af the deserved credit they get now start flaming that all their work was stolen...
Precisely!!
Maybe this place shouLd get back to the basics of a community, a civilised place where respect and helpfulness are the norm.....
Yes please.
It was like that before, but I fear those days are gone forever!
Let's hope that is not the case.
danlisa
05-16-07, 11:37 AM
What has become of this place?
A couple of years ago when I 'discovered' Subsim this was a nice cozy place where you were welcomed and where people treated each other with respect.
Whenever there was a subject you wanted to discuss, helpfulness from other community members is the first word that pops up.
There were some rippels now and then, but these were exceptions.....SNIP......Some people that are jealous af the deserved credit they get now start flaming that all their work was stolen...
Maybe this place shouLd get back to the basics of a community, a civilised place where respect and helpfulness are the norm.....
It was like that before, but I fear those days are gone forever!
Salute JCWolf and thanks for all you contributions!
@ REM
I agree with you entirely and I'm sorry for sniping your post in my quote, just wanted to keep the size down.;)
I think alot of this stems from the infux of many new members to Subsim which is entirely attributed to SH4. It's to be expected, Sub Sims have been made more 'mainstream' with thier 'hollywood' graphics & I feel that many may have come from other game forums where the norm is completely different to what we have come to expect from Subsim. This contributes to the problem but it certainly is not the only reason we are seeing this type of behaviour.
The SH3 side of Subsim is considerably more friendy and welcoming (IMHO) than the SH4 side but I think the reason we are noticing more attacking or rude posts is due to the drop in traffic. I'm not saying that SH3 has become less attractive or popular but we must admit that there are less new developments/threads being created and as such, attacks/gripes & rudeness is becoming more apparent. Not too long ago, if you took a weekend away from the SH3 Mods Forum, you had to goto page 3 or 4 before you could catch up where you left off.
This, in part, is why many of us find ourselves on the defensive alot of the time. Speaking for what I know, GWX is a HUGE target, mainly due to it's popularity, which in turn means most of the posts you find are GWX related in some way & many people feel that GWX has called 'Monopoly' on the SH3 boards because of this. Now, this can't be blamed on the devs, however they are the easiest targets & as such the flak will come thier way. It doesn't matter, they have broad shoulders after the last couple of years.
There is no-one here, on Subsim, that will deny anyone their voice or opinion but what is totally unacceptable is the manner in which those opinions are put forward. There is no reasonable excuse for being anything other than respectful & polite to any other member, especially when you are wanting to discuss issues with their hard work. We must ALL remember, this is written word and as such no inflection/tone of voice is portrayed in our responses. Before posting, re-read what you have written.
Finally, I feel that Subsim will return to the place we all love to be but in the meantime we must endure the gripes and slander but rest assured, they will not go unanswered.
Forecast - More of the same, with some bright patches. Looking to the future, it's :sunny: all the way.
@ JcWolf - I blame you for all this 'thinking' I'm having to do.:88):rotfl:See you on the Den.:cool:
AVGWarhawk
05-16-07, 11:48 AM
We must ALL remember, this is written word and as such no inflection/tone of voice is portrayed in our responses. Before posting, re-read what you have written.
You are correct sir in every way, shape and form!
ReallyDedPoet
05-16-07, 12:06 PM
The SH3 side of Subsim is considerably more friendy and welcoming (IMHO) than the SH4 side but I think the reason we are noticing more attacking or rude posts is due to the drop in traffic.
Give it some time danlisa, this will change:roll:. But forget about SH4 for a second, there will always be new naval games\sims that come out, thus attracting new members to this site
( many good, some bone-heads to ), we can either learn to deal with it in a constructive way or not. I am not a big fan of the not.
Sad thing is is that even before SH4 came out, many were panning it, saying they were not going to play because it was a Pacific Sim, funny since it was SH1 ( a Pacific Sim ) that got alot of this started.
For the record, I have said this many times, GWX is superb, I will continue to play it along with SH4 I am sure, well into the future:yep:
RDP
Ladies and Gentleman,
I came to know this community just recently with an interest in SH3, what a great community you folks are. I have found help around every corner in getting SH3 up and running with not only GWX but with loads of other mods.
This community stands out in its manners and maturity. I see some difficulties at the moment but these can be overcome with time and patience.
I implore the moderators and owners of the forum to restore the level of civility, collaboration, cooperation and tone for which these forums are so well known.
I want to thank all of you for adding another "fanatical sub simmer" to the ranks! I really enjoy both SH3 and SH4 and this wonderful forum. Special thanks go out to the modders that work so hard to bring us further and enhanced enjoyment.
So take heart in that there are so many folks like myself that may never post and may just browse and download. We are very grateful and thankful!
Thank you!
Wilcke
Forecast - More of the same, with some bright patches. Looking to the future, it's :sunny: all the way.
Let's hope so!
You made some valid remarks......especially about re-reading replies before posting; altering a few words may well be the difference between offending someone and starting a healthy discussion.
We don't have to agree on everything all the time.....but let's just respect one another. After all we're different human beings for a reason right?
GlobalExplorer
05-16-07, 02:35 PM
JCWolf,
You are really a very talented person, and certainly a member this community doesnt want to lose.
But I am not sure if I can follow your logic any more.
You have complaints against some people not respecting your work and the achievements you made - ok. I probably agree inasfar as a number of members here are newbs who really dont give a ****. But thats such an obvious, normal, accepted fact all over the internet, in fact over the whole world, that your view strikes me as rather naive.
You are basically demanding the subsim stuff and mvps to act as a sort of police, otherwise you are going on a hunger strike. To me, it looks like your involvement has become so intense that you cannot understand any more that most members come here in their past time, and that they`re not really interested in the inner lifes of the elite modder that you are.
Modding should be conducted by amateurs, it should be a past time, it should be fun. Maybe you have reached a point where you should really continue your work in the professional world, because there the practices you demand are accepted, and you can take steps gainst someone who steals your work. And as I said at the beginning, the quality of your work is really not amateur level anymore, so it would be an apt step.
Just don`t put the blame on everyone else, and stay around, for the better. Subsim would miss you.
I am not closing my ears for you complaints, but it`s my honest answer after reading your post.
Ladies and Gentleman,
I came to know this community just recently with an interest in SH3, what a great community you folks are. I have found help around every corner in getting SH3 up and running with not only GWX but with loads of other mods.
This community stands out in its manners and maturity. I see some difficulties at the moment but these can be overcome with time and patience.
I implore the moderators and owners of the forum to restore the level of civility, collaboration, cooperation and tone for which these forums are so well known.
I want to thank all of you for adding another "fanatical sub simmer" to the ranks! I really enjoy both SH3 and SH4 and this wonderful forum. Special thanks go out to the modders that work so hard to bring us further and enhanced enjoyment.
So take heart in that there are so many folks like myself that may never post and may just browse and download. We are very grateful and thankful!
Thank you!
Wilcke
Well said Wilcke.
I picked up SH3 from a bargin bin just for a quick play. The mods and the friendly and open attitude of the modding community here hooked me big time. I have not struck this level of maturity anywhere else on line.
Like many, I'm have a busy life, but I have come to enjoy the "browse and download" time here. The danger is that I've failed to show my gratitude, and certainly threads like this cause me to pause and think (well done).
We stick around because we have a mutal interest in something.
Remarkable place.
Remarkable people.
:yep:
I have been reading this thread all day...As a "new" modder here, mainly SH4 am I one of the ppl that is causing this :o ?... or is it something I missed...I know there was tension between Beery and the GWX team, then we had Nvdrifter getting peed off etc, but is there more to this...Sorry, but i don't read all the threads here, even if i try.
If I personally have done something (that i am not aware of) I am truly sorry.
I am wondering as there is alot of talk about the "new" peeps doing SH4 mods.
No my friend relax, in fact you're one
of the good things that camed with the SH4 release
and with the guys that have done a healthy Modding job
bringing to this forum more content that will only improve
this place mate...
I salute you and your genuin a respectfull hard work my friend...:yep:
JCWolf,
You are really a very talented person, and certainly a member this community doesnt want to lose.
But I am not sure if I can follow your logic any more.
You have complaints against some people not respecting your work and the achievements you made - ok. I probably agree inasfar as a number of members here are newbs who really dont give a ****. But thats such an obvious, normal, accepted fact all over the internet, in fact over the whole world, that your view strikes me as rather naive.
GE. you're one of the guys that I most respect in this place,
for many reasons but the two obviouse one are ,
The fact that you go in here without making yourself notested
and (That is a good thing) and the huge contribution that
you bring with your tech tools and modding tools...
But I totally desagree with you over the part that I'm being naive
or that is normal this kind of situation over the all internet world...
Every time someone raizes his voice to call up upon what he
might consider unfair and indjust behavior comes someone that
just says that he is been naive or dramatic or even childish...
I call on your intelegent human being that you are and ask mate...
Is it consider normal for you the subsequent wave of threatening
and abusive words we have seen here latelly upon some of my
former team mates from GWX?:shifty:
Is it consider normal in internet that this of the question above
happends and none of the Forum stuff takes a strong hand and just
bann this agresive characters and insted of that just close the
thread and make small posts and part of the overall situation?
Is it normal, that a lot of the new here look like having a mission
of destrying the reputation of so many hard working modders
and nobody takes a stance to defend those guys???:hmm:
If you say this is normal mate , maybe I can say that you
are the one who got me confused...
I guess also that my logic mate is so clear that you
can read it in my every word!
JCWolf,
You are basically demanding the subsim stuff and mvps to act as a sort of police, otherwise you are going on a hunger strike. To me, it looks like your involvement has become so intense that you cannot understand any more that most members come here in their past time, and that they`re not really interested in the inner lifes of the elite modder that you are.
You are missing the point here mate,
and I'm not going on a hunger strick:lol: :lol:
And tell me what really is the meaning or objective
of a site moderator??
Is it not to control posters, a kind of police,
yea thats exactely what they are but a forum police if you want
to call it that way, to moderate to interact, to observe and help,
to keep the place as clean as possible...
This is not a quest is a right that we all have in here, all of us that
really bring something into this forum and in the end when it comes
the time we feel like left alone in the Lions cage without even a chance
to say No...
If I don't whant my Mods to be used without my agreement they will not
be used, I have created them, now if I can not defend this then whats
the point of stating JCwolf New Campaign screen, no I can just add
it without any readme file and just New C. Screen and thats it...
The point of this thread when I created it, was from the beggining
to call up everyone atention and speacialy the Modders on a subject
that it seems lost in here, and worst of all is that when you
speack up against certain kind of abuses you turn into the bad
guy and turn into the Monster and egoistic man with
a only interest that is his personal glory....
I want you to see beyond the apathic way that we are acepting
this probl;em to a point that one of the great Modders like you
also comes here and consider this normal...:shifty:
Modding should be conducted by amateurs, it should be a past time, it should be fun. Maybe you have reached a point where you should really continue your work in the professional world, because there the practices you demand are accepted, and you can take steps gainst someone who steals your work. And as I said at the beginning, the quality of your work is really not amateur level anymore, so it would be an apt step.
Just don`t put the blame on everyone else, and stay around, for the better. Subsim would miss you.
I am not closing my ears for you complaints, but it`s my honest answer after reading your post.
Modding its funny for me man,
and I work in ammateur and professional level
at the same time mate, but we can not confuse that
with what is right and rong...
I am not blaming everyone mate, and that was never
my objective , more I am doing this cause I think
there are people here that are worth of this effort
and for them I called upon the right of defending
what you do for fun or not...
Anyway I knew that this would bring some of the old school
modders some confusion...
But the bottom line is that I am sick of seeing certain atitudes
happening here and go on impun....:stare:
Thanks for you words mate...
CaptainCox
05-16-07, 04:25 PM
Warms my heart!!!! really does!. I have been reading from ol "wolfs" all over the place about the bad "apples" in the "SH4" forum and i really felt l sort a...well part of it for some reason, don't ask why, just did.
Anyhow, I think with all the support from all these guys...please don't throw in the towel...I am sure a lot of you guys will play a major part to the SH4 scene when things gets ironed out (game wise and attitude wise) heck most of you already do pop in and gives hints and comments (don't want to break this up in SH3vsSH4) but many hardcore SH3 modders have not yet gotten in to SH4 due to the patch issue. I am currently trying to wrap my brain with 3DS MAX...something I am sure a lot of you oldtimers already have done and solved. And if you guys start to drop out this early...well all the worse for us rookies in the end. Keep going man, WE NEED YOU! ;)
Again cheers for your comment there man, really means a lot!:oops:
Webster
05-16-07, 05:12 PM
the real problem here is when they stopped us from spanking children they grew up with no respect for themselves or others and failed to learn manners too.
now we see the result of this.
Jimbuna
05-16-07, 05:38 PM
the real problem here is when they stopped us from spanking children they grew up with no respect for themselves or others and failed to learn manners too.
now we see the result of this.
You could have struck a chord there :hmm:
the real problem here is when they stopped us from spanking children they grew up with no respect for themselves or others and failed to learn manners too.
now we see the result of this.
Spanking my 2 boys will be the first thing i'll do in the morning....;)
I know this is rather off topic but brings to mind the old saying:
"Spare the rod & spoil the child"
Now what would Jim say, "Now the Sh_t will hit the fan", stand back!:lol:
I can for one side tell you,
That I was created by my grandpa,
and he never touched me not even ons,
and found the way of incerting in me
the values that I use now as a day
by day bases...
This can and depends a lot on the
personality that one brings when he
is born, and I guess you can be
a spoyled litlle prat and understand
that the respect its not a optional
value in our society its a must have value...
I guess my childhood was in fact very tuff
and that advercety teached me some
how to see that one doesn.t have to be
nasty and arrogante to achieve a good
relationship with your fellow human beings...
The case here is completly diferent, since
I can even guess that some of this guys can
have some kind of real life frustration so they
use this forum as an escape route for that...:nope:
Jimbuna
05-17-07, 07:51 AM
I know this is rather off topic but brings to mind the old saying:
"Spare the rod & spoil the child"
Now what would Jim say, "Now the Sh_t will hit the fan", stand back!:lol:
To be totally truthful, I've never had the need to demonstrate/exercise corporal punishment to my two offspring. I've always tried to raise them whilst instilling the basic values of life ie: truth, honesty and respect, etc. :know:
I have to admit I feel very lucky in this respect because I witness far too often the other side of the spectrum in my line of work. :nope:
I'm a grandfather now, and I must say my kids are great!!:smug: When I had to punish them I gave them multiple choice, they would sit down think it over & give me their choice, sometimes my daughter would chose a spanking, I would feel like an A-Grade heel then!!:cry: But lets face it none of us are Angels, I certainly wasn't!:lol:
Jimbuna
05-17-07, 08:14 AM
I'm a grandfather now
You would never think it judging by your avatar :lol: :up:
GlobalExplorer
05-17-07, 02:29 PM
JCWolf,
I am on your side when it comes to mod breaking, mod stealing, noob attitudes, or whatever is bothering you so much.
I would also not stand back if you or any respected member of this board gets insulted without good reason. But I have not witnessed those incidents (and as you say correctly, I am not too deeply involved with these forums).
I was also feeling provoced and insulted by some people on some particular subsim boards, because my political view doesnt get on well with left/right zealots, but I got to accept it and stay clear of these boards. Its not worth it.
But what I am trying to do is get you thinking of the real issues that you take to heart, and somehow how to overcome them:
The obsessiveness that is at the heart of modding, or any kind of real creativity, and that every one crazy enough to mod can understand, but which is completely incomprehensible for the normal member, because he is not interested in anything but using our mods.
That you are a creative person who devotes a huge amount of himself to create things truly outstanding, and want some recognition in return, but will ultimately feel let down because people only want to get some outstanding stuff from "that" guy. Most people will say they like your graphics but they dont care who did them. What does it matter to them?
The fact that once you have decided to create mods you have basically accepted that you put your work under some sort of BSD license, i.e. everyone can use your work in any way you like, as long as they take the consequences. That is a decision you must take before you start modding, otherwise you have not thought enough about the problem.
If you are not comfortable with that, I recommend you to make a cut and create something that is copyrighteable - if you look at some other forums there are several OpenSource sims in development, and though they come under GPL or similar licenses, the are very well able to fight against copyright breech. E.g. you might as well work on Danger From the Deep, i.e. create something original, and you would hear me talk very much differently if someone would interfere.
I say think about copyright and leave moral aside. I might share your moral views, but lets face it, many people are not, and there`s nothing we can do about it. We cannot change the world.
In a way your words remind me of a time when I was much younger and got frustrated at some sort of shallowness or unaccountability I found unbearable in my peers. Later I learned to accept this as the normal dilemma of everyone with a deeper intelligence, more serious character, and that such a person can only really agree with someone like him.
I am sure you know I want you to stay, and not to wind you up. Just take my words as all advice I can give you, in all honesty.
When I looked at your graphics the first time, I thought: Man, that guy has really got huge talent, he`s better than many in the software industry.
However, I can not defend you against losers who do some perfunctory experiments with your work, and want to feel like great modders, in fact I dont think they should bother you at all. People will forget them and their stuff quickly, but they will always remember you, JCWolf.
My advice: Stay :yep:
Take a look at the ugly dude on the right in the signature Jim!!!:dead::doh::88)
Jimbuna
05-18-07, 06:15 AM
The mind boggles...whom might that be ? :hmm:
JCWolf,
I am on your side when it comes to mod breaking, mod stealing, noob attitudes, or whatever is bothering you so much.
I would also not stand back if you or any respected member of this board gets insulted without good reason. But I have not witnessed those incidents (and as you say correctly, I am not too deeply involved with these forums).
I was also feeling provoced and insulted by some people on some particular subsim boards, because my political view doesnt get on well with left/right zealots, but I got to accept it and stay clear of these boards. Its not worth it.
But what I am trying to do is get you thinking of the real issues that you take to heart, and somehow how to overcome them:
The obsessiveness that is at the heart of modding, or any kind of real creativity, and that every one crazy enough to mod can understand, but which is completely incomprehensible for the normal member, because he is not interested in anything but using our mods.
That you are a creative person who devotes a huge amount of himself to create things truly outstanding, and want some recognition in return, but will ultimately feel let down because people only want to get some outstanding stuff from "that" guy. Most people will say they like your graphics but they dont care who did them. What does it matter to them?
The fact that once you have decided to create mods you have basically accepted that you put your work under some sort of BSD license, i.e. everyone can use your work in any way you like, as long as they take the consequences. That is a decision you must take before you start modding, otherwise you have not thought enough about the problem.
If you are not comfortable with that, I recommend you to make a cut and create something that is copyrighteable - if you look at some other forums there are several OpenSource sims in development, and though they come under GPL or similar licenses, the are very well able to fight against copyright breech. E.g. you might as well work on Danger From the Deep, i.e. create something original, and you would hear me talk very much differently if someone would interfere.
I say think about copyright and leave moral aside. I might share your moral views, but lets face it, many people are not, and there`s nothing we can do about it. We cannot change the world.
In a way your words remind me of a time when I was much younger and got frustrated at some sort of shallowness or unaccountability I found unbearable in my peers. Later I learned to accept this as the normal dilemma of everyone with a deeper intelligence, more serious character, and that such a person can only really agree with someone like him.
I am sure you know I want you to stay, and not to wind you up. Just take my words as all advice I can give you, in all honesty.
When I looked at your graphics the first time, I thought: Man, that guy has really got huge talent, he`s better than many in the software industry.
However, I can not defend you against losers who do some perfunctory experiments with your work, and want to feel like great modders, in fact I dont think they should bother you at all. People will forget them and their stuff quickly, but they will always remember you, JCWolf.
My advice: Stay :yep:
I can't deni that you are right in some things that you say this time,
but my friend, a lot depends on how deep you are involved in something and
how is your personality...
I steel do not see any possible solution to fix this rather then a Bigger
SubSim Stuff participation that have the all means to prevent this if they
really want to stop the Bad behavior excalation of this recent times...
But I guess I can stick on the back stage and watch this going down
or just ignore the Prat attitudes and take care of the cool and nice
guys that are around here...:yep:
Thanks ons more GE
JCWolf,
Sometimes, it is tough to stay and deal with all of the crap that can happen.
However, I hope you will change your mind about leaving. This place needs honorable people like you... even if it means standing on an island surrounded by sharks.
I know there is a limit to patience in everyone my friend. I still hold hope though, that some good things will happen... and some rules will put in place to clarify boundaries. The story isn't over yet.
Even in the darkest of days you will at least have the pleasure of knowing who your friends are.
I think it can happend mate, rules or guide lines can be traced as long
as the people who really can make it happend are willing to apply them,
I really never tought I would be saying this about a group of people or a
community that gave me so much good times and helped me meeting
the Grey Wolves for example, but I really don't bellieve in this place the
way its rooling right now, I bellieve that This place could be preserved
as it is, and merging the recrutings of new users and the protection
of the old ones and the work posted here it can continue growing
without loosing the guide lines or rules that started with...
I bellieve in the SS Work group, and most of all in Neals fine work on
this Forum as he achieved the level others only wish and dream, but
I also bellieve that the road this community is taking right now is
not even close to what I think its Ethiclly correct...
How can we let a "Tomb Raider" style dude just come and go as
he pleases and along on this way in wau out kust allow him to
get the goodies he wants for is personal litlle file experiments,
and later release it as is own, and yet allow this fellow to come
here and insult one or more of the guys that helped this place to
grow as it is...:shifty: :down:
I have a good feeling that in time yea things will get to the track
and back to the road it was before, but during the "Anarchy"
periode some great Modders will desapear on that road, and some
others just get tierd and quit...
Is this what SS whants to have a ghost town...:doh: :-?
I will always bellieve in this>
All For One And One For All
Yes, it is "exact in the eye" ...
What do we see?
We see One Mod forum ...
Such forum is not interesting for me, I do not like such forum ...
And I do not like such policy: "...the entire ship damage model system was redesigned from scratch by vonHelsching, Ref, and AG124 over the course ..." ...
P.S. Good mod, greater work and also read above ...
Thanks for the words Anvart...:yep:
So after all that was posted here from me and others,
what is the first thing I do see???
This-
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=537720&postcount=62
I do not and will never understand such a thing,
and will never understand with what bases a person
that is in this forum for such a long time says a
rather ridiculous thing like this...
And I respected him!
It seems that Hitman haves the reason this time
to do what he is doing by closing the thread for
a time, but I do also think that this felow modder
of the above link will continue saying things like this...
No matter what!:nope:
There is for sure no reason for still coming to this place,
at least for us the ones offended...
I hope you guys understand and the rest
who really wants a place that for now its clean of
such individuals can go and visit me at my place...
See you all and may the winds bring to you
a calm see and better Hunts my fellow Seaman!
I am officially leaving SS untill I can see some real changes and
diferent atittudes in people, this thread as now completed
its purpose!
I am officially leaving SS untill I can see some real changes and
diferent atittudes in people, this thread as now completed
its purpose!
Since the person who opened it consideres the purpose accomplished, and since no new arguments seem to be arising, I would advice to stop the conversation here.
And no, I'm not locking it yet, I'm not a friend of locking threads (Though I will do it if necessary as it is my duty). But I believe you all have enough respect for JCwolf to accept his will. Proof me right and stop the conversation here. Thanks:up:
What thread, I keep hearing of this but don't know where to look to have my say.:-?
Thanks.
clayton
05-20-07, 04:23 PM
Goodbye! ;)
As you can see by the low number of posts that I don’t get involved much in forums. The reason is probably the same as you wanting to leave. There always is a jerk around with something to say no matter where you go. I would just like to point to you that these are the sort of things that happen when working the consequence free environment of these forums and computer gaming. My guess is from these posts that you have more friends here then enemies and some of these people that have angered you do it for simply that purpose, to anger you. They are losers with nothing else to do. No there isn’t much short of ignoring it you can do about it and that is sad but it’s the general nature of the computer gaming environment.
The modding community such as yourself and the GWX team has kept me playing this game since release. I in fact left if for a while as Ubi’s game just wasn’t enough for me. This community paid Ubisoft to do what you have done for us for nothing more then a passion for people who love this gaming genre and historical time period. You deserve all the credit that comes with for certain. Ronald Reagan once said, however, it’s amazing what you can do you don’t care who gets the credit. It sucks, but it’s true, and it’s these words, from that man, which help me when it happens to me at work which it does from time to time.
Hang in there. Thanks for what you have done for us. Many of us hope you will reconsider.
Jimbuna
05-21-07, 01:14 PM
Goodbye! ;)
:roll:
:hmm:
I suggest anyone willing to give JCwolf his support does it per PM. Much more personal, private, and respectful with his will regarding this thread.
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