Alternate Reality Campaign Mod

[GoldenRivet]

Sounded interesting to offer an alternate reality campaign mod which would follow this timeline...

1. The Type XXI becomes available in early 1943 as a response to allied air power.

2. Due to the increased threat of the Type XXI the UK is successfully blockaded

3. Operation Overlord is launched on shcedule in June 1944 but with substantially fewer invasion resources and the operation fails as a result.

4. Operation Sea Lion is Launched one month after Overlord... Because so many allied resources were lost during the Overlord Invasion in June The germans experience a swift victory in Great Britian during the 5 month long sea lion campaign ending operations against Great Britian in December 1944. Great Britian's civil population was evacuated to Canada en masse by huge merchant ship convoys between September and December 1944. Under political pressures - Spain aligns with Germany and Italy - Gebralter is now lost from allied hands. German control of the Med is assured the fate of military control in north africa is sealed in favor of Germany.

5. Many of the British Naval resources that were not scuttled are now captured and used by the Kriegsmarine. All British capital ships now have kriegsmarine flags flying from their masts and German Names on their hulls.

6. The ports of Londonderry, Stornoway, and Torshaven become available for U-boat operations in January 1945.

7. The month long invasion of Iceland occurs in March 1 1945 and the U-boat base of Reykjavik is made ready within weeks of it's capture.

8. In April of 1945 U-boats are deployed in force against the U.S. East coast and Gulf Coast. Using Secret airbases in Iceland and Greenland German Condor bombers attack U.S. East Coast Cities on a virtually daily basis.

Ill stop there as im not sure that the campaign can be extended into 1946.

Anyone interested in tackling something so ambitious as a campaign re-write? :rotfl:

have to admit its a cool idea.

[down and out]

IIRC there is a German victory mod somewhere

Try http://u-boot.realsimulation.com/

Not sure how it pans out as not used it

[Spytrx]

right (I remember a series of books that followed a similar storyline :hmm:)- where do you see the Russians in that alternative? But on a purely fictional and hyperthetical voyage that only leaves the US to fight - and that would be boring (let's face it the great break throughs in naval technology were mostly made by the Brits (I'm not one), so with them out of the game it would slow down Allied naval development drastically). And think about it, the Axis will control the Oceans - so what is the game about? ;)

From a tecnological point of view I am all for it since I am looking into the research projects the Nazi's had going towards the end of the war (and boy did they have some beauts on the drawing board) and would love to see some of those boots float...

[GoldenRivet]

I Didnt focus much of my spiel on the russian campaign - it should have never happened. Hitler's resources could have just as easily been found in north africa at the time.

But here goes...

1. having knocked Great Britian out of the equation in December of 1944 much attention was then turned to the land war with he Russians. naval tactics played almost no role here. But the increased U-boat and surface unit patrols deep into the waters of the United States keeps the USA preoccupied with the increasing threat on the east coast. As naval bases and Luftwaffe bases inch steadily westward political pressure causes Roosevelt to shift attention to the Nazi threat to the east diverting forces away from the distant Japanese threat in the pacific.

2. Well into late 1945 The war between germany and russia rages on.

3. Under pressure from hitler and because of The USA's decreasing commitment to the PTO China falls completely to Japanese control in September of 1945 allowing the Japanese to open a second front with Russia making things difficult on the Soviets. As a result the Japanese have put their operations against Australia and their Advance eastward on hold.

4. The US continued it's A-bomb research testing the First Atomic Bomb slightly behind schedule in September of 1945 2 weeks leter the Germans test their own Atomic Bomb... on the troublesome city of Stalingrad... Russia surrenders 3 days later.

5. The Japanese Empire and Germany are unified as their Ground forces meet in central Russia.

6. In January 1946 New York City is evacuated by land and sea over the course of a week as Germany threatens to use It's Atomic Bombs against the city. German U-boats have effectively shut down the US East Coast and Gulf of Mexico. U-boats have a turkey shoot against the evacuating US Merchant Ships and ocean liners. Germany never uses the A-bomb against New York.

7. U-boats have a field day launching attacks at US Warships as they leave the Panama Canal zone bound forthe northeastern United States in March of 1946.

8. A couple of weeks later the largest Naval surface battle in History takes place off the coast of Newfoundland as The majority of The US Surface Fleet engages the Majority of the German surface fleet (including captured british warships) and the U-boat fleet. The engagement ends after 18 days of on again off again fighting and results in heavy losses for both sides. The war comes to a diplomatic end and a seemingly never ending cold war begins.

[AG124]

Are you going to make use of the Seydlitz and Graf Zeppelin models in your campaign?:hmm: You might have mentioned them, but if you did then I missed the reference.

[GoldenRivet]

Didnt think of the Graf Zepplin - she is in GWX but really just eye candy and was basically just eye candy in real life hehehe but yeah if the war raged on for another year or so i bet she would have become operational. good idea

[P_Funk]

in September of 1945 2 weeks leter the Germans test their own Atomic Bomb... on the troublesome city of Stalingrad... Russia surrenders 3 days later.
Don't want to rain on your parade but post war interrogation of German scientists found that the direction they were going with their nuclear program was a dead end.

But its a nice fantasy for an alternate war.

I would like to play it.:yep:

[GoldenRivet]

A lot of that assumption is based on what the Germans are able to find and gather intellignece wise after the defeat of russia that would help them complete their own atomic bomb.... or maybe even the hydrogen bomb. not that it would matter in SH3 as such weapons are not modeled anyhow.

[P_Funk]

That would be wicked.

"Orders: Observe the deployment of the Nazi atom bomb from 8 km off shore".

;)

[GoldenRivet]

what would be even more wicked is to launch an atom bomb equipped buzz bomb from a Type IX sub modified to have a launch rail.

[Madox58]

OK, Who's been talkin?

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n12/privateer_2006/Stuff/NSS_Uboat21.jpg

And incase anyone didn't know,
Germany was the first to fire missles from a Sub.
Both Submurged, and surfaced.
In fact, a unit to launch V2's was built
with more under construction at wars end.

[P_Funk]

That isn't news to me. I mean most of the early cold war technology was taken from German designs.

The righteousness of each side in the cold war was prosecuted by the products of Nazi Germany.

History is nothing but irony.

[GoldenRivet]

nice privateer are you working on a mod like that for SH3??? :rock:

i had no idea, just knew it had been done before... i have even seen US ships post ww2 launch them

[down and out]

In July 1943, the idea was again resurrected after Germany had successfully developed the V-1 rocket. The Vergeltungswaffen 1 (Vengence Weapon 1) was an unmanned flying bomb, powered by a pulse-jet with a range of 148 miles (238km). It was designed to be launched from a land installation but the idea of using U-boats as a launch platform was proposed. The notion was to provide the weapon with mobility, where it could strike almost any city in the world. The V-1 however was a Luftwaffe weapon and the idea was again rejected.


http://www.uboataces.com/articles-rocket-uboat.shtml

[Spytrx]

I Didnt focus much of my spiel on the russian campaign - it should have never happened. Hitler's resources could have just as easily been found in north africa at the time.
It was inevitable - both, Hitler and Stalin, started to prepare for an invasion of the others country the day they signed the non-aggression pact... :yep: They were just too much alike to ignore one another, or even live together as neighbours...

Don't want to rain on your parade but post war interrogation of German scientists found that the direction they were going with their nuclear program was a dead end. Because they lost their source of heavy water - in this timeline they never loose it so it is possible. Unrealistic though is the close race - the Nazi's were months ahead of the US in both theoretical and practical R&D (the Germans had worked out the mechanical side and delivery method already). And with the war in Europe being over the German treason of some notable scientists that gave the Ami's their break would not occur either, so maybe it is the US that comes to a dead end...


Later submarines (Type 26 or higher, can't remember exactly) were planned as launch bases for attacks on the US coast (I wish I could remember which site I found it on, it had plans for the boots and specs, etc)...

[GoldenRivet]

hehehe exactly the reason it would be called an "Alternate reality" mod :up:

[Jimbuna]

I find your hypothesis very interesting :yep: In fact I love it :up:
Just one small point Great Britian's civil population was evacuated to Canada en masse by huge merchant ship convoys between September and December 1944 Would there have been a merchant fleet big enough ? :hmm:

[GoldenRivet]

taking into account that every able bodied man would have likely chosen to stay behind and fight it would almost surely be only women, children, elderly, and VIPs who would be evacuated. the evacuation would be made in stages and would take quite some time to complete. Note: it took from September to December to complete the evacuations

the first convoys would run from england to iceland drop off and return.

second convoys would run from iceland to greenland dropp off and return.

final leg would be convoys from greenland into ports in canada.

many passenger carrying aircraft would also participate.

[Spytrx]

all that whilst the Germans U-boots are watching? Hmm...:hmm:

If you look how the Nazis worked this scenario in other places they would have looked to contain the country and stop a mass exodus...

And what able bodied men? There would be none left (remember Dunkirk? The Nazis could have wiped out the whole fighting power of the British if they wouldn' have had a break)....

[GoldenRivet]

all that whilst the Germans U-boots are watching? Hmm...:hmm:

If you look how the Nazis worked this scenario in other places they would have looked to contain the country and stop a mass exodus...

And what able bodied men? There would be none left (remember Dunkirk? The Nazis could have wiped out the whole fighting power of the British if they wouldn' have had a break)....
That would kind of be the point of having U-boats in this series of events = to interdict the mass exodus.

Not only to prevent any manpower from escaping the UK but to also attempt to use the U-boat fleet to intercept any capitol shipping which may be trying to reposition to canada and the USA.

[danurve]

I find your hypothesis very interesting :yep: In fact I love it :up:
Just one small point Great Britian's civil population was evacuated to Canada en masse by huge merchant ship convoys between September and December 1944 Would there have been a merchant fleet big enough ? :hmm:

Nope, I don't belive there would have been. Given the alternative u-boat success.

Something else wrong (IMO), the idea the British would surrender their fleet. Scuttled maybe.

And what of the Med?

[Woof1701]

I think the whole point of evacuating the population from an island that size is highly improbable. Especially if Germany really had completely blockaded England which is the premise of the scenario. There would have been no way to escape. A few liners like the Queens might have been fast enough to get past the Typ XXI uboat screen around Britain with several ten thousand people, but to evacuate even 10% of the civilian population en masse with a few fast lines would take years.
England in the 1940s was not self-sufficient when it comes to food. So if surrounded and starved for food supplies for the population, England would have only had the option of surrender or of it's population dying of hunger. It's like a siege on a fortress on a large scale. Being an island is the greatest defense and the greatest weakness of England.

[Werewolf]

I am definitely interested!!!!!! :up: Is it ready for download? hehe :arrgh!:

It would be a relief to get out of that gloomy atmosphere of defeat

[PhantomLord]

I am definitely interested!!!!!! :up: Is it ready for download? hehe :arrgh!:

It would be a relief to get out of that gloomy atmosphere of defeat

That´s exactly what i think. Go for it!

[Werewolf]

Listen, I have an idea. Does anyone in here remember Panzer General? Here it's possible to win WWII from German side. How about making the campaign according to the progress in Panzer general seen from a u boat's side? Damn my English is not so good....does anyone understand what I mean?

[GoldenRivet]

your english is perfect friend... i have never played panzer general but i know what you mean.

[Jimbuna]

I understand what you mean :yep: ....your to be complemented on your English too :up: ....I'm just not that sure how your idea could/would be implemented in the game :hmm:

[Werewolf]

@Jimbuna/goldenrivet:

First of all sorry for the late reply and thanks for understanding :) . Well, I have the good old panzer general I, which I personally think is the most realistic of them all, later it all went too much arcade style. Anyway, it's really interesting to look at the outcome of the war in this game because there are several of them, depending on how well you do. When SSI made the game way back they made it upon a theory of 3 key years in WWII where Germany had the chance to win or turn the tide and those years were well the beginning of course, if everything had went well from 1939 then the war should have ended in 1944 with UK invaded in 1940 and Soviet Union beaten and US not involved at all! OR 1941, if everything goes as in history then another chance of turning the tide for the Germans will be in 1941 and the key factors will be Africa and Russia, then as the last chance, 1943, key battles being Kharkov and Sicilly, operation Husky. Now if one starts a campaign from the beginning in 1939 and plays to the end then the outcome will be different every time, depending on skills and luck and so on. Now...Imagine if somebody played a full campaign, this can be done in a few weeks, writes down the "history" and THEN, somebody in here with a sound knowledge of how this land war would affect the u-boat war, then voila! Do you get the picture? :D

Maybe Gibraltar would have been invaded as a preparation for opr. sealion in 1940 to free the Italian fleet, then the Gibraltar crossing would be a walk in the park, maybe the snorkel would never had been needed at all and Germany would have had a sub war like the US in the pacific. Maybe 1943 would have been a challenge only and not a turning point leading to defeat of the uboat arm, if a German victory on the western front and thereby more ressources for technology....am I talking daft? What do you think?

I just mean that, a lot of research went into making panzer general I and plausible outcomes of WWII if Germany had won, if a game can decide the "script" for the campaign you are planning in here, why then waste months of discussing possible outcomes....It would be just like a historic calculator in a way :)

[Spytrx]

nah - wouldn't happen that way... Germany could never have won the war, even if Hitler never made a single mistake in his battle plans - the moment he opened the second front the war was lost (and if he hadn't Stalin was going to attack sooner rather than later anyhow). Now let's take the absolute ideal starting position and say that Japan actually stuck to the plan and attacked Russia from the East instead of going after America, the Axis still would have lost the war in Europe simply because of the Allied efforts there and the overwhelming resources they could bring into play.

America and England were working together in naval R&D, and the Brits had a choke hold on the Kriegsflotte so there was no realistic chance of the U-boots ever making it big as needed for a scenario like this to work...

[GoldenRivet]

nah - wouldn't happen that way... Germany could never have won the war, even if Hitler never made a single mistake in his battle plans - the moment he opened the second front the war was lost (and if he hadn't Stalin was going to attack sooner rather than later anyhow). Now let's take the absolute ideal starting position and say that Japan actually stuck to the plan and attacked Russia from the East instead of going after America, the Axis still would have lost the war in Europe simply because of the Allied efforts there and the overwhelming resources they could bring into play.

America and England were working together in naval R&D, and the Brits had a choke hold on the Kriegsflotte so there was no realistic chance of the U-boots ever making it big as needed for a scenario like this to work...
you are 100% absolutely correct and i agree with you Germany was Screwed from day one.

but in the (so far non-existant) super fantasy, make believe world of the alternate reality mod (which a person would have the option of using) the Krauts pull a win out of dark moist places you shouldnt talk about at dinner. :rotfl:

[danurve]

Some of the veteran Aces around here could probably attest to some healthy tonnage. That by itself is an unreality compared to what the IRL far and few U-boat aces realy managed out of the war.
But, it's still fun! And that my friends is the point of this game imo.
On the other hand even a 'Fantasy Mod' needs a few anchors to make it half way conceivable.

[Spytrx]

I am all for a fantasy mod - there were plenty of boots in the pipeline that would be a delight to play with - but as danurve says, there need to be anchors in reality -- and you don't want to glorify the wrong things either...

Conceivable would be that Germany stopped after the invasion of France and Poland and directed its energies towards Africa - colonisation, resource hunting, etc - all that needs to be transported via sea (hence U-boots). Maybe there should be an option for the Allied merchant to surrender and change flag rather than just sinking them? Or piracy... :)

And please don't refer to my fellow country men as Krauts - that is not nice...

[emtmedic005]

PLEASE O PRETTY PLEASE...some one PLEASE make this mod, it would be soooooooooo awesome. Someone should create the ships listed in the "Z-Plan" hahaha That be SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET:rock::rock::rock::rock:

[PhantomLord]

And please don't refer to my fellow country men as Krauts - that is not nice...

Would you prefer Jerry or Fritz? :rotfl:

However....i want this mod. There are so many books about that "what happened if Hitler won the war". So why not playing this fantasy in a game? At least it´s a fantasy...

[GoldenRivet]

speaking of what if scenarios

i saw this neat movie a long time ago i think it was called the "philadelphia experiment 2"

basically the USAF re-opens the philly experiment in hopes of rendering their stealth fighters invisible. (invisible man style)

so they equip an F-117 accordingly, send it up on a flight test and when they activate the device the F-117 vanishes without a trace.

Contact with the F-117 is lost.

Running low on fuel, and unable to determine his position (non of the navigational equipment like GPS or Tacan seems to be working) the pilot finds an airfield and makes a precautionary landing. Greeting him at the end of his landing roll - Luftwaffe personnel carrying submachine guns - the F-117 was transported to ww2 Germany.

anyhow - the Germans reverse engineer many of the F-117s systems and the GBU-17 bomb. UH OH! (peter griffin style uh oh like when he crapped his pants) :rotfl:

now these scientists are in a scramble to correct history and prevent the philidelphia experiment or something like that.

one of the coolest scenes in the movie was the airfield with like a dozen F-117s parked on the ramp with big Swastikas on the tail getting ready to launch a mission into london.

[Spytrx]

Would you prefer Jerry or Fritz? :rotfl:
Kraut is actually a nasty nick (sorry, my English fails me here and I can't think of the proper word here) -Jerry or Fritz aren't (they were more affectionate)...

I guess people don't realise what it is like to be held responsible or being constantly reminded of a past that has nothing to with them - especially when you show an interest in history, particularly the 30's & 40's (for some people that makes you automatically a Neo). You try living with the 'enemy' for a while - then you might understand the sensitive issue surrounding just one word - there are plenty of uneducated people about (particularly the second and third generation after the war) that really only know one thing about the War and use that in a misguided way - so yes, you get sensitive (fed up, bored) after a while


... the "philadelphia experiment 2"
a bit like 'The final Count-down' then, huh? Now if Hitler had used the Messerschmidt ME 262 right from day one (rather than let the plans get dusty in some cubboard for a few years) that would have been something...

There are a number of books and films out there with that theme of alternative history going - but very few are anywhere near conceivable... ;)

[PhantomLord]

Would you prefer Jerry or Fritz? :rotfl:
Kraut is actually a nasty nick (sorry, my English fails me here and I can't think of the proper word here) -Jerry or Fritz aren't (they were more affectionate)...

I guess people don't realise what it is like to be held responsible or being constantly reminded of a past that has nothing to with them - especially when you show an interest in history, particularly the 30's & 40's (for some people that makes you automatically a Neo). You try living with the 'enemy' for a while - then you might understand the sensitive issue surrounding just one word - there are plenty of uneducated people about (particularly the second and third generation after the war) that really only know one thing about the War and use that in a misguided way - so yes, you get sensitive (fed up, bored) after a while

As a "fellow country men" i really know what you mean.
But back to the topic. Lesson "political correctness" is over. :D Take it with a smile.

[Woof1701]

Would you prefer Jerry or Fritz? :rotfl:
Kraut is actually a nasty nick (sorry, my English fails me here and I can't think of the proper word here) -Jerry or Fritz aren't (they were more affectionate)...

I guess people don't realise what it is like to be held responsible or being constantly reminded of a past that has nothing to with them - especially when you show an interest in history, particularly the 30's & 40's (for some people that makes you automatically a Neo). You try living with the 'enemy' for a while - then you might understand the sensitive issue surrounding just one word - there are plenty of uneducated people about (particularly the second and third generation after the war) that really only know one thing about the War and use that in a misguided way - so yes, you get sensitive (fed up, bored) after a while

Jep I sometimes can't stand that either. However since the German government doesn't have the courage to put an end to that and always submits to a past most living adults weren't even alive in, I can understand why those who still hold a grudge against Germany feel their feelings confirmed. Keeping the past alive by remembering it is one thing but presenting oneself as a self concious country whenever a topic get's a little dicey and might be connected to a racist past is not the right way either.



... the "philadelphia experiment 2"
a bit like 'The final Count-down' then, huh? Now if Hitler had used the Messerschmidt ME 262 right from day one (rather than let the plans get dusty in some cubboard for a few years) that would have been something...

There are a number of books and films out there with that theme of alternative history going - but very few are anywhere near conceivable... ;)

Well I have always been a big fan of the Me262 and have stood in front of the one in the Deutsches Museum for long hours, but I believe it is sometimes overrated. It proved to be a nasty customer to fly. Its engines were extremely sensitive and unreliable and it could only take off from concrete or asphalt runways which were easy to destroy and hard to rebuild. In addition it was a poor dogfighter. It's main advantage was top speed and climb rate, even though there were some prop fighters that could climb as fast. I guess a combination of Me 262 attacking bombers and Fw 190 going after the escorting fighters could have made a dent in the Allied air superiority. Nevertheless the German Army lost several important oil reserves as early as 1943 which made it difficult to mass produce high grade aircraft fuel. By late 1944 there wasn't enough oil left to maintain the Luftwaffe and more aircraft were bombed on the ground than lost in combat.
An earlier switch to produce the Typ XXI in combination with a successful elimination of the Royal Air Force in 1940 might have made a real difference but I believe in the end would also just have prolonged the war. In addition since basically no Typ XXI boats saw front action noone knows if it would have lived up to the expectations. The Allies who captured and tested several of the boats were impressed though. In the end the only thing that would have won the war for Germany would have been the A-bomb. Luckily THAT didn't happen. Especially our (now) friends on the big island to the North West certainly wouldn't have been amused. ;-)

[Morts]

nice goldenrivet
id really like to see a mod like that out here:up:

[Spytrx]

Well I have always been a big fan of the Me262 and have stood in front of the one in the Deutsches Museum for long hours, but I believe it is sometimes overrated. It proved to be a nasty customer to fly. Its engines were extremely sensitive and unreliable and it could only take off from concrete or asphalt runways which were easy to destroy and hard to rebuild. In addition it was a poor dogfighter. It's main advantage was top speed and climb rate, even though there were some prop fighters that could climb as fast. I guess a combination of Me 262 attacking bombers and Fw 190 going after the escorting fighters could have made a dent in the Allied air superiority. Nevertheless the German Army lost several important oil reserves as early as 1943 which made it difficult to mass produce high grade aircraft fuel. By late 1944 there wasn't enough oil left to maintain the Luftwaffe and more aircraft were bombed on the ground than lost in combat.
An earlier switch to produce the Typ XXI in combination with a successful elimination of the Royal Air Force in 1940 might have made a real difference but I believe in the end would also just have prolonged the war. In addition since basically no Typ XXI boats saw front action noone knows if it would have lived up to the expectations. The Allies who captured and tested several of the boats were impressed though. In the end the only thing that would have won the war for Germany would have been the A-bomb. Luckily THAT didn't happen. Especially our (now) friends on the big island to the North West certainly wouldn't have been amused. ;-)

Please don't forget that the ME262 was rushed through - you have to look at the real design plans, not what has been built out of scrap (and even for that it was still extremely impressive). Old Göhring ruined his standing and respectability with Hitler at Dunkirk = he shouldn't have said that the Luftwaffe is more than capable to finish off the British at the beaches. Letting almost the whole surviving bulk of the British Expedition Force escape and so giving the Brits a fighting chance is not a confidence builder. Later on the screw-up with the Battle of Britain burried any chance of the Luftwaffe ever going to be developed as the Kriegsmarine or the Panzers were... As I said, the plans for that aircraft were locked in a cabinet for a few years (whilst Germany had still command over vast resources).

The Type XXI did go out on patrol and the two boats both sucessfully engaged in a mock attack on a British strike force and a heavily guarded convoy before surrendering - neither of the British unit ever saw it comming (according to debriefing manuskript). Other types in development would have been even better, had the war not been lost (and I do believe Hitler knew it that it was over in '43). I am sure I read somewhere about the Japanese developing one of the German planned Super-boots, but I can't find that book for the live of me... :damn: Rumour had it that it fell into American hands and they kept stumm about it, developing their first SSK-class (if I remember rightly) submarines based on that very concept. Now with a boat like that and some planes to back it up with, maybe a nice little carrier fleet to go with it the war of the Atlantic would have changed just a little...

Still - the two front war broke Germany's back, and that is a given in any kind of scenario...

[Woof1701]

Please don't forget that the ME262 was rushed through - you have to look at the real design plans, not what has been built out of scrap (and even for that it was still extremely impressive). Old Göhring ruined his standing and respectability with Hitler at Dunkirk = he shouldn't have said that the Luftwaffe is more than capable to finish off the British at the beaches. Letting almost the whole surviving bulk of the British Expedition Force escape and so giving the Brits a fighting chance is not a confidence builder. Later on the screw-up with the Battle of Britain burried any chance of the Luftwaffe ever going to be developed as the Kriegsmarine or the Panzers were... As I said, the plans for that aircraft were locked in a cabinet for a few years (whilst Germany had still command over vast resources).

The Type XXI did go out on patrol and the two boats both sucessfully engaged in a mock attack on a British strike force and a heavily guarded convoy before surrendering - neither of the British unit ever saw it comming (according to debriefing manuskript). Other types in development would have been even better, had the war not been lost (and I do believe Hitler knew it that it was over in '43). I am sure I read somewhere about the Japanese developing one of the German planned Super-boots, but I can't find that book for the live of me... :damn: Rumour had it that it fell into American hands and they kept stumm about it, developing their first SSK-class (if I remember rightly) submarines based on that very concept. Now with a boat like that and some planes to back it up with, maybe a nice little carrier fleet to go with it the war of the Atlantic would have changed just a little...

Still - the two front war broke Germany's back, and that is a given in any kind of scenario...

I have to agree with you but for your last comment. The U.S. fought a war on two fronts and won. Luckily for them they entered the war late and tremendous natural resources at their disposal, while Germany and Japan had to conquer some countries with the rescoures and defend them first. The U.S. were isolated enough that the homeland was never really threatened except from Operation Paukenschlag (Drumbeat).

[Spytrx]

I have to agree with you but for your last comment. The U.S. fought a war on two fronts and won. Luckily for them they entered the war late and tremendous natural resources at their disposal, while Germany and Japan had to conquer some countries with the rescoures and defend them first. The U.S. were isolated enough that the homeland was never really threatened except from Operation Paukenschlag (Drumbeat).
I hardly call it a two front war (how many fronts are you fighting at right now then ;))- as you said, the mainland was never in real danger (heck, even the attack on PH took an immense effort by the Japs and needed a lot of screw-ups to happen on the US side to be successful - as history showed, once the danger was recognized no more attacks came even close with the exception maybe of the odd ballon and saboteur-unit). Up until recently the US could feel secure in the knowledge that they are too far removed from anybody to worry much about being attacked on their home soil. It makes a huge difference if you can built up your forces in relative safety and arm them or if you have to re-built the factory after a nightly bomber raid first :)

[PhantomLord]

Any news about this mod?