GWX DD AI is ruining SH3 for me.

[sandbag69]

Cant believe what has happened to GWX Escorts AI. For some reason it has been tweaked so far that there is no chance of attacking a convoy even in 1942 before being detected from many miles away.
Infact my bridge lookouts cant even see the Escorts charging at me until their shells start splashing around my boat.
Then the Depth Charges start coming. Exploding right on top of me alamost first time when i am at 150M and silent running. Didnt just happen once, happened everytime.

There is no way that the 1942 Escorts had capabilities like that.

Dont get me wrong I dont want GWX to be super easy but at least make it a bit more realistic.

It was single player mision that I created with the escorts set to competent rather then veteran. Maybe I need to make them to ne novices but I doubt this would make a difference.

[poor sailor]

Well maybe our tastes are diferents but I found that in GWX very well balanced the level of difficult in game. Much better then the first "The Grey Wolves" mod. I'm now in my WaW patrol in the end of 1943 and the airplanes are real nightmare:up: as was in that historicaly time and exactly I read in "Iron Coffins" for example. Only I may suggest you to try Rubini's great mod "Stay Alert Crew fix mod" which much improve the sensors in game and also to use a realistic way to escape the DD, some of that is perfect written in GWX manual v.1.03. Also maybe the good solution is to GWX dev team release GWX hardcore version (for experienced players, with longer repair times and more deadlier aircraft...) and other GWX light version (for player who like the much easier game), but there is a lot of work probably for that, the team not have a time for that or don't like that idea.

[down and out]

Depends on how you approach the convoy and weather conditions
Radar is making an appearance around then too

84 U-boats lost in 1942 (3221 men died and 818 men survived those losses)

http://uboat.net/fates/losses/1942.htm

[Spytrx]

there is already a thread about this running here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=112152).

I think it would be fair to say though that anybody looking for a game that is harder to play and more challenging right from the first Sept 1939 with some fancy sounds and graphics (and the odd cheat) should go for GWX... Otherwise just stick with the vanilla version of the game and add the mods and skins you fancy to it as you go and have a look around if you can find some tweaks for some more realistic settings on the way...

[VipertheSniper]

Can't say I've had problems thus far, although last time in the Carribean a DD destroyed my port diesel when I was at about 70 meters on the way down to 240 meters in my IXC, some heavy flooding in the aft compartments, had to go on flank and blow ballast to not get sucked down below 274 meters, which I had tested before is the deepest I can go, before the pressure hull starts to lose hull integrity.

One of my worst patrols, 31k only, in the Carribean, October 42 or something, had to limp home on one leg so to say, barely made it with my fuel.

Good thing tho, once below 200 meters I could go on 1/3 ahead, even tho the destroyers were still circling above me. So much for Uber DD's

GWX with Stay alert crew 8km version.

[sandbag69]

Well maybe our tastes are diferents but I found that in GWX very well balanced the level of difficult in game. Much better then the first "The Grey Wolves" mod. I'm now in my WaW patrol in the end of 1943 and the airplanes are real nightmare:up: as was in that historicaly time and exactly I read in "Iron Coffins" for example. Only I may suggest you to try Rubini's great mod "Stay Alert Crew fix mod" which much improve the sensors in game and also to use a realistic way to escape the DD, some of that is perfect written in GWX manual v.1.03. Also maybe the good solution is to GWX dev team release GWX hardcore version (for experienced players, with longer repair times and more deadlier aircraft...) and other GWX light version (for player who like the much easier game), but there is a lot of work probably for that, the team not have a time for that or don't like that idea.

Dont get me wrong I love the GWX mod but just think the DD AI is far to accurate in Detecting and attacking me. The DD's drop DC's right on top of me almost every time.

[Ducimus]

Come on now, its really not that hard.

[P_Funk]

:up:Come on now, its really not that hard. I agree. Its a huge leap from vanilla but you just need to be very methodical.

Turn your tail or nose to the nearest DD, go ahead flank when they're dropping DCs, cut it and glide on.Turn at no more than 15 degrees since turning harder than that slows you down alot. Dive deep. Like DEEP! Depth makes you more stealthy and it takes the DCs longer to get there.

Just be very afraid. Don't be cocky. The aces of the early war got owned because being cocky was no longer prudent.

On the surface radar will detect you later on. You need to be submerged ahead of time to be able to get into a firing position and even then your firing range needs to be much farther than before.

Adopt, Adapt, and Improve.:up:

[Sardaukar67]

Good advice there. I am quite a SHIII newbie myself, old hand with Aces of Deep though. I played vanilla for some time and found it lacking in many aspects, so I installed NYGM mod for now. I got really frustrated first because I thought I had proper evasive tactics..well, I had..just was in too shallow.

It's indeed wise to be very cautious. And dive deep is the answer..plus using of well-timed "sprint and drift" as said above. Or "sprint and glide"...:cool: When you go to flank speed underwater and cut down your electric motor power, you can glide silently for a while..and making course adjustments too. Like said, don't give too much rudder, since you'll slow down too much.
Managed to evade 4 DD "death-star" recently too...which usually kills you when in shallows. And this time I even had damage so couldn't go deeper than 145 m.

When you see heavily escorted TF/Convoy in shallow water..ask yourself: "How much I want to be alive ?" :p Caution is the answer, pick your fights since you can hide but you usually cannot run.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Exactly. Stock SH3 got everyone in the habit of charging in and blowing everything sky-high.

With more realistic sensor packages... even early in the war, if you do something bone-headed... nature takes its course.

When merchants begin to arm themselves (IIRC 1941-ish) they OUTGUN YOU!!!

Sometimes, the right thing to do is just let the target go... or leave the area and set up an ambush in low-light conditions.

Now you gotta work for that tonnage.:|\\

(If you guys think that early war is tough now... Late war is all about snorkeling and surviving. ASW gear becomes more advanced... and more prolific.)

[Sardaukar67]

Even in AOD there was "Wheel of Death", those red spikes coming towards you from all directions on sonar screen...:lol:

When you get "Depth Charges in water", go flank briefly and then cut down to 1 knot, trying to maneuver most of the ASW ships wo they are either behind you or in front of you to reduce sonar aspect. Against 1 enemy I can often make it with 2 knots..can turn better and keep him in disadvantageous aspect better. Against multiple ASW ships it's when the "fun" starts, like in real war.

If I recall correctly there were late war Hunter/Killer ASW groups that *always* sunk U-boat after they detected and aquired it. Either they managed to sink/damage it with Hedgehogs/DCs...or if U-boat was just too good in evasion, they just waited it to run out of electrical power and oxygen etc. Only thermal layer and lot of luck could save sub from destruction in that situation..since then Allies knew the underwater ranges and limitations of U-boats. Even if one could evade them underwater, they'd get you on radar when you show your snorkel after running out of "juice".

ASW just got way too good, only XXI had real chances after late 1944.

[Maraz]

Cant believe what has happened to GWX Escorts AI. For some reason it has been tweaked so far that there is no chance of attacking a convoy even in 1942 before being detected from many miles away.


Installing Ducimus' AI Sensors mod might solve the problem, stock GWX AI has a maximum view range of 30 Km, that perhaps is a bit too much

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=106956

Maraz

[Kpt. Lehmann]

ASW just got way too good, only XXI had real chances after late 1944.

... and in real life the XXI only performed two unsuccessful patrols. (One of those was performed by Erich Topp who "bent" the rules to take her out, LOL.)

Also in real life, hunter-killer groups would not end the hunt often for days. There are quite a few accounts of U-boats that had to surface in front of the enemy's guns... because the CO2 levels in the boat became too dangerous.

Also relevant to the simulation... (spoiler ahead) the enemy may not actually have contact with your boat. They will, often repeatedly, DC your last known location and the surrounding area. Perfectly logical IMHO. The same thing also occurred in RL.

[joea]

Dont get me wrong I love the GWX mod but just think the DD AI is far to accurate in Detecting and attacking me. The DD's drop DC's right on top of me almost every time.
Sorry that's not my experience. In 1942 they had radar!!! IRL and in the sim. You did not acknowledge that. Also look at my sig, I have managed to survive and done super well for a u-boat in this period of the war. No way I'll get 100,000 tons but still.

[Spytrx]

... and in real life the XXI only performed two unsuccessful patrols. (One of those was performed by Erich Topp who "bent" the rules to take her out, LOL.)
That is a new one on me - Topp was Chief Designer and responsible for the development of the Type-XXI and commanded the U-3010 which was used as a training boot and never left port, and the U-2513 which was used after the war ended.
The only two patrols carried out by 21 were in the last two weeks of the war by U-2511 under KK Adalbert Schnee and U-3008 Kptlt. Helmut Manseck - both had to break off an attack when the BdU send out the Message "Germany had surrendered" - both Kapains though completed their dummy attack-run in the new boots sucessfully withouth their counterparts even noticing.

The type XXI was so good and advanced (traveling faster underwater than the escorts would do on the surface) that both allies based their future submarine designs on it (since the Russians got more boots their W-Class is mainly a copy of the 21)...

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Ahh well, I shoulda put "IIRC" on there I guess. At the very least I know Topp wanted to do just that. Maybe I'm remembering stuff wrong. At any rate, my point was that the XXI was a non-factor in WWII.

Mainly, I'm just sick and tired of everyone thinking that AI sensor perception and precision modding are simple to work with in the SH3 code... when much of the system is broken to begin with.

In stock SH3... DC's are laser guided.

This is loosened in GWX (having modded depth detonation precision and testing for best results literally hundreds of times.)

Either way... if you are near the surface, you are a stronger contact and the DC's are naturally more accurate. The deeper you are, the less accurate they are.

[poor sailor]

Either way... if you are near the surface, you are a stronger contact and the DC's are naturally more accurate. The deeper you are, the less accurate they are.
Is this for sure? I read sometime ago, I couldn't remember where but when the submarine is deeper then the pressure is higher and the hull is already under pressure and when DC's hit, the damage is bigger and hit are stronger. Or I maybe wrong?!

[Umfuld]

Is this for sure? I read sometime ago, I couldn't remember where but when the submarine is deeper then the pressure is higher and the hull is already under pressure and when DC's hit, the damage is bigger and hit are stronger. Or I maybe wrong?!No, you are right. And I believe that is part of the game. But the comment was about how accurate the drops are, not their impact.

[poor sailor]

Is this for sure? I read sometime ago, I couldn't remember where but when the submarine is deeper then the pressure is higher and the hull is already under pressure and when DC's hit, the damage is bigger and hit are stronger. Or I maybe wrong?!No, you are right. And I believe that is part of the game. But the comment was about how accurate the drops are, not their impact.
Thank You, now I understand what's the point!

[Umfuld]

As I said, I believe deeper DCs have more impact in the game, but I don't know for sure.

If anyone can confirm or deny this for me I won't stop you. :lol:

[danlisa]

As I said, I believe deeper DCs have more impact in the game, but I don't know for sure.

If anyone can confirm or deny this for me I won't stop you. :lol:

As far as in game is concerned, I'm not sure. However, thinking logically.....

In shallows - Less pressure on U-Boat Hull / Less pressure = larger blast radius of DC. This would mean that there is less of a chance that a DC would cause major structural damage however they would be more accurate in their placement.

In depths - More pressure on U-Boat Hull / More pressure = smaller blast radius of DC. This would mean that there is more of a chance that a DC would cause major structural damage even though the DC is less accurate in their placement.

It seems that the DC was an all purpose weapon but I don't know if this is modelled in SH3/GWX.

Is it possible that you do receive more damage from a DC when your are at depth? It would be awfully hard to test.:hmm:

[Henri II]

I don't know if a DC does more damage in greater depths, but I think that the same amount of damage is far more serious if you are deep. Loosing 50% of hull integrity at periscope depth is not much of an issue, at 280 m it would probably lead to the hull being crushed a second later. Also at greater depths you have less time to repair the damage if the boat starts sinking and have to run the engines faster or blow balast to keep your depth.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Either way... if you are near the surface, you are a stronger contact and the DC's are naturally more accurate. The deeper you are, the less accurate they are.
Is this for sure? I read sometime ago, I couldn't remember where but when the submarine is deeper then the pressure is higher and the hull is already under pressure and when DC's hit, the damage is bigger and hit are stronger. Or I maybe wrong?!

Hi poor sailor,

I was describing what happens in the simulator. Unfortunately, the limitations of the simulator are problematic.

[Vermin]

The effect of even a minor leak at deph is much worse at depth due to increase in water pressure - stopping it is much harder and the rate of flooding much higher... the only bonus is that the reduced lethal radius of the DC at depth means that accuracy is much more important.

IIRC at least one surviving U-boat skipper noted that once the allies had developed DC with hydrostatic fuzes which could detonate up to 300m there was little advantage in going very deep. Given the accuracy issues noted above though, the effects of thermal layers and the decreased efficiency especially of hedgehog at depth, it was still probably the safest tactic.

[Sardaukar67]

Didn't Allies (british) have troublke with deep-diving U-boats before they designed faster-sinking DCs ? I think I remember that standard DCs sunk too slowly even when fitted with deeper fuzing, enabling U-boat to travel way longer distance before DCs reached the depth.

[Vermin]

Sink rate was a problem - the Mk VII (1939) terminal velocty was 9.9 f/s and the Mk VII heavy (end 40+) tv 16.8 f/s.

Note though that initial fuze settings were only 300 ft, later 600 ft and finally 900 ft or 1000 ft.

The US Mk 6 (standard in early war) tv 8 f/s (later 12 f/s), and the later Mk 9 (standard in late war) 14.5 f/s - some later 22.7 f/s.

Again though, fuze setting were originally only 300 ft, later 600 ft and even 1000 ft.

IIRC, SHIII has only one type of DC :-? and the modders have had to work wonders to get round this problem! :rock:

(Data from Campbell)

[poor sailor]

Sink rate was a problem - the Mk VII (1939) terminal velocty was 9.9 f/s and the Mk VII heavy (end 40+) tv 16.8 f/s.

Note though that initial fuze settings were only 300 ft, later 600 ft and finally 900 ft or 1000 ft.

The US Mk 6 (standard in early war) tv 8 f/s (later 12 f/s), and the later Mk 9 (standard in late war) 14.5 f/s - some later 22.7 f/s.

Again though, fuze setting were originally only 300 ft, later 600 ft and even 1000 ft.

IIRC, SHIII has only one type of DC :-? and the modders have had to work wonders to get round this problem! :rock:

(Data from Campbell)
Look at this thread I found http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=98528&highlight=depth+charge+nygm
Maybe the GWX team can do it something similar. That's would be very interesting!