View Full Version : Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery (or hey, the devs stole my idea!)
I just had a bit of a surprise in the game - the SH4 developers totally co-opted my idea for the ship recognition book flags. That was my idea, and it first appeared in RUb1.43 on August 2nd 2005 - I know because the RUb readme lists it as my mod. I guess imitation is the most sincere form of flattery, LOL. I wonder what else they've stolen from us?
Of course I'm joking. I'm not upset about it. Actually I really am flattered. It's good to know that what we do does get noticed.
Anyway, I thought this might make a nice thread, so has anyone else noticed any stuff from SH3 mods that 'accidentally' found its way into SH4?
Sailor Steve
03-27-07, 04:41 PM
Well, no one was ever able to make it work in SH3, being hard-coded and all, but one of the biggest complaints was about having to micro-manage and baby-sit the crew, and wouldn't it be great if you could assign automatic rotating watches. They listened to that one.
All my work on ports, esp. in the Baltic, Med and Black Seas from Operations Mod has made its way directly into SHIV. Egan might recognize some of his, too :p
Myself, when I release a mod anyone is free to use it. I don't even need any credit as long as the other person doesn't take it for themselves either. In the case of the Devs though - they have every right to use what they need, as mods that don't use external copyrighted content are technically property of Ubisoft.
All my work on ports, esp. in the Baltic, Med and Black Seas from Operations Mod has made its way directly into SHIV. Egan might recognize some of his, too :p
Lol, yeah. it was the nav map clued me in on this...:D
Actually, I think there may be a few other things. I want to compare the airstrike cfg to the ones you and I were doing for the ops mod and later and the vanilla sh3 one. I reckon one of the reasons that people are seeing such a silly level of air patrols is that it was one that was done for SH3 that had been slotted for Biscay patrols...I think there might be a wad of stuff in the cfg file culled from RUB and other mods. Of course, most of it is redundant now..
:rotfl:
In the case of the Devs though - they have every right to use what they need, as mods that don't use external copyrighted content are technically property of Ubisoft.
That's right, and I don't resent them using ideas I had at all. I've also always had the attitude that anyone can use my mods - I like to get credit but that's all. But the attitude of the developers of SH4 towards unofficial mods represents a real change from games I've made mods for in the past. This is the first time that I've seen developers use mod content for a sequel. I think it's great - it shows that they value our work and it shows that meaningful communication does go both ways. It's a long way from the mid-1990s when Talonsoft threatened to sue me for adjusting the order of battle for Battleground Waterloo.
I think Jaesen might recognise some stuff from SH3 Commander in SH4 too - I hear SH4 features after-career biographies - very similar to an idea Jaesen Jones and I developed as a way for SH3 Commander to humanize the U-boat commander's career. My idea was to give the commander an entire lifetime biography from cradle to grave, and we did it for SH3 - SH4 only seems to have used the post-career bios, but it's great - we found it added a lot to the experience in SH3.
Ducimus
03-27-07, 04:58 PM
SH4 developers totally co-opted my idea for the ship recognition book flags
I doubt it. The thing is, that has been in every mod since. The community as a whole has been collectively using flags on rec manuals. I honestly dont think modding got too much dev attention until NYGM and GW started hitting the scenes.
But looking at SH4, they clearly noted where we spent alot of our time polishing SH3 and some of our gripes about SH3. The crew management, the periscope TDC, flags on rec manuals, and existance of lots of harbors with traffic are examples of this. None of that existed in stock SH3, was modded into it, and is now built in SH4.
Well, in the case of the ops mod harbour names that CCIP and I mentioned it was definitely our work there which began life with RUB before making its way into the two other major mods. There were several place names that went in purely because I liked the place in real life whether or not it had any real naval merit.
But yes, on the whole I agree with you. At least they noticed.
SH4 developers totally co-opted my idea for the ship recognition book flags
I doubt it. The thing is, that has been in every mod since...
Still, it was originally my idea. Wherever they got it from - whatever route it took to get from my head to Ubisoft, I was the one who did it first, and I feel pretty darned proud about that - that an idea of mine got into an officially released game from a major game developer.
As for the devs not noticing mods until NYGM and GW, the developers were talking to the SH3 Mod Team when RUb was in development (before NYGM or GW were even a twinkle in their authors' eyes, hehe). They definitely knew RUb was around. Heck, RUb was even featured in July 2005's Computer Games Magazine, so it was hardly a little-known mod anywhere, least of all among the SH3 development team.
Der Teddy Bar
03-27-07, 05:36 PM
Berry,
A Dev team finally listens to the community and what we want in a sim and decide to implement it into the next release, in this case SHIV, and you have to go and make a post like this!
I am unsure of what you hope to achieve with such an offensive post?
I would not be surprised if we found 'your original idea' of flags on the cover of a recognition manual in some other game that has been released years ago.
Hopefully everyone will remember to thank you when something that the community wants does not make it into SHV because they made it known either through a post or a mod.
Immacolata
03-27-07, 05:40 PM
LOL. I wonder what else they've stolen from us?
I'm not upset about it. Actually I really am flattered. It's good to know that what we do does get noticed.
If you're really flattered you might consider using a different word than "stolen". That is so.. confrontational ;)
Anyways I as player and user of mods are happy on my own as well as on the behalf of those who enjoy seeing their work in this new product. I hope this means that modding for SHIV will be even more enjoyed by makers, users and supported by devs.
Kpt. Lehmann
03-27-07, 05:49 PM
Berry,
A Dev team finally listens to the community and what we want in a sim and decide to implement it into the next release, in this case SHIV, and you have to go and make a post like this!
I am unsure of what you hope to achieve with such an offensive post?
I would not be surprised if we found 'your original idea' of flags on the cover of a recognition manual in some other game that has been released years ago.
Hopefully everyone will remember to thank you when something that the community wants does not make it into SHV because they made it known either through a post or a mod.
I agree. Salute DTB.
Onkel Neal
03-27-07, 05:54 PM
Before any tempers are frayed with the healthy competitiveness :) I think Beery was using the word "stolen" in the lighter sense. The devs were greatly impressed with the imaginitive work done by the community. All of you had great ideas that contributed to the success of post-release SH4. :up:
cheers
Neal
Guys, it was a joke. How could Ubisoft have stolen what was theirs to begin with. Do us all a favour: take a deep breath, look at the original post again and read ALL of it - especially the bit that says:
"I'm not upset about it. Actually I really am flattered. It's good to know that what we do does get noticed."
Don't just read the 'stealing' part, and try not to put the worst spin possible on it. :lol:
Hehe, next time I have to remember to use smiley faces so people know I have my tongue firmly in cheek.:up:
Darn my dry British sense of humour.
Onkel Neal
03-27-07, 06:10 PM
Now, if we can just mod tabs for the different classes of ships, and make the page stay on the last page viewed... that would :rock:
gouldjg
03-27-07, 06:29 PM
compete compete Compete I want healthy competition as it gets bigger and better mods out.
DTB the KPT slept with your wife
KPT, Beery said your wife sucked in bed
Beery, the other two question your historical knowledge and presume your so ugly, you dont have a wife.
On a serious not so winding up sense,
Does anyone have any contact with the devs whom may share the occasional formular/secret.
I know DTB got hold of some useful info on SH3 and hope he can do it again,
KPT, will probably take a break, the poor sod
Beery, IMHO, is usually the best person to spur modders in a optimistic way.
I think the devs have given us a graphical brilliant game. It is up to all of our combined efforts to turn this into a cult type following as with the last one. That way, we will eventually get a twin theatre version.
Lets kick the cloak and daggers out of the door:lol:
p.s. hope you all see the twisted sad humour and don't take any offense
Ducimus
03-27-07, 06:33 PM
*sigh*
All im going to say is i was biting my tongue. Now i dont have to since somebody light the fuse on what i was thinking and not saying:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/ranks/teddybar.jpg
Still, it was originally my idea
Does it matter? I mean really? Theres alot of stuff that i could probably claim as "my idea", theres alot of stuff that i honestly thought up on my own, but somebody else had already done it first. At any rate, doesnt matter. All that matters is at the end, the game benfits and progresses to be better then it was before. Squabbeling over percieved intellectural rights isn't going to accomplish that, and is one reason why most of the time, i dont even bother to put my name in the readme file of my own F'ing mods.
Still, it was originally my idea
Does it matter? I mean really?
I'm not saying it matters. Read it in context. I'm saying it makes me feel good. Aren't I allowed to say that on the forums?
Again, let's try to see this the way it was intended, rather than putting it in the worst light possible.
Beery, the other two question your historical knowledge and presume your so ugly, you dont have a wife.
ROTFL. :rotfl:
With that, let's get back to the HUMOROUS and CELEBRATORY nature of the thread - the way the thread was originally intended to be. I mean the devs thought our stuff was great enough to use in SH4 - how awesome is that?
clayton
03-27-07, 07:44 PM
STFU everybody -- There's modding to be done! :D
STFU everybody -- There's modding to be done! :D
:rotfl:
Sometimes I wish there were bonus points to hand out.
Before people jump on Beery for this more - I'll admit that if I was thinking of starting a thread like this myself before :p
Take it easy folks, the title might be unfortunate but I think the modders enjoy having their ego stroked a little in a harmless way. I'd like to point out that in the case of both Der Teddy Bar and Kpt Lehmann, there's been a lot of healthy and well-warranted 'cool, look what we did!' threads before.
Let's face it, it's cool to have something you produced make it into the official release of one of your favorite games. I think that's all that's being said, with cheers to the devs and all :yep:
panthercules
03-27-07, 10:43 PM
Amen CCIP - I sure hope we're not going to descend into more of the "big mod wars" syndrome before things even get started here. I've used all of the big SH3 mod packages I could find - RUB, NYGM, GW, and a couple of others I can't remember the names of offhand (not an intentional slight to those others - it's just late and I'm tired) - and I've really enjoyed and been impressed with them all. They all added tremendously to my pleasure and enjoyment of SH3 and I'm indebted to all the mod teams (and scores of other modders) for all their efforts.
Personally, I think I understand where Beery was coming from, and I don't really think it matters all that much if he's right about the specifics or not (maybe I would if in reality I had been the first person to put the flags on the manual, but I don't see anybody claiming that). I think the concept of the devs incorporating ideas from the SH3 modders (any modders) is really cool - too bad they didn't have time or inclination to do more of that, as I'm sure SH4 would have been an even better game for it. And I'll guarantee you, if I found out that my "Operation Petticoat mod" (which I proudly claim to be the first to have posted :lol: ) had made it into SH4 I'd be absolutely tickled pink (pun intended), so let's just have some fun with this new subsim :up:
Immacolata
03-28-07, 03:27 AM
Okokokok. Sorry Beery!
Don't want a fuss about nothing.
And Im looking into this forum everyday with a sense of joy and anticipation to see what wonders the guys have made for today :) I hope it stays so.
JScones
03-28-07, 03:35 AM
I think Jaesen might recognise some stuff from SH3 Commander in SH4 too - I hear SH4 features after-career biographies - very similar to an idea Jaesen Jones and I developed as a way for SH3 Commander to humanize the U-boat commander's career. My idea was to give the commander an entire lifetime biography from cradle to grave, and we did it for SH3 - SH4 only seems to have used the post-career bios, but it's great - we found it added a lot to the experience in SH3.
SH4 seems to have picked up some of the functionality that SH3Cmdr added to SH3. For example, SH4 includes (or allegedly includes - some features I haven't experienced myself):
1. randomised tonnage. Not as powerful as SH3Cmdr's by the looks of things, but there nonetheless.
2. date-based radio messages. Haven't sussed this out too much, but it looks like SH4 has internal support for date-based radio messages and the like. Looks like it could be extended to music as well.
3. random/date-based skins (planes, ships and submarines). This I like! Seems one can set things up so that the same ship can use different skins depending not only on date, but country as well. Every British River Class, for example, could be set to use pink or green skins whilst every Australian River Class uses a blue one. And so on. Early/Mid/Late skin packs could be internally supported.
4. retirement. Haven't seen this myself, but I've read a few posts alluding to it.
5. post career bio. Haven't seen this myself, but I've read a few posts alluding to it.
Of course, I'll point out now that none of these features were originally "mine"; they were conceptualised by numerous others and merely made tangible by me. I'm just happy that the devs listened to the community and included these improvements. A big kudos for that alone (although granted this may be a tad premature for some of the unconfirmed inclusions, but I'll take it on face value). :up:
PS, some observations needing confirmation:
I noticed a Warnews.upc file - does this suggest that SH4 incorporates a "Night Club" or similar concept?
I noticed a CrewMembersNames.upc file containing a comma-delimited list of first and last names - does this suggest random crew name support?
I noticed a line in CareerTrack.upc "; Reason= CSS_AbandonedShip". Does this suggest that SH4 includes an abandoned ship option in career mode?Just curious. :hmm:
I decided to edit the OP just in case anyone else gets the idea that I was serious. Maybe the wording was a bit unfortunate. I can see now how folks could easily have got the wrong end of the stick.
irish1958
03-28-07, 05:49 PM
Berry,
I told you a long time age that you should be on the development team for SHIV. I didn't know that they would do it!
"Keep up the good work"
Uber Gruber
03-29-07, 08:31 AM
Can i just say i'm absolutely shocked that, for a moment there, a possible falling out risked occuring between Beery, Da Teddy Bar and Ducimus. You three have massively contributed to my enjoyment of SH3 and I just wont stand for any nonsense between you. In fact, why aren't you all three working on a super mod for SHIV..huh ? Why ?:stare: Explain that to me if you please.
Go on, you know it makes sense.:yep:
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