How much can the SH3 engine take?

[Ducimus]

This is something ive always wondered about. Seriously. Now to understand what im talking about, ill have to pick on GWX a little bit, and No GWX team, this isn't a sublte dig, (I worked on it too, remember?)

But the example being Load times in GWX. I mean, it takes a LONG time to load a game In GWX. Espeically when you compare it to stock, or UC, or even NYGM. all being loaded on the same system. The thing is, GWX went out of their way to reduce load times. The Texture directory being the primary example. The game loads a dat, (which contains textures), and then loads the textures in the tex directory over that. I know from experience its ALOT of damn working repacking dats with the textures you want, and the Tex directory in GWX is SPOTLESS.

And yet, the game still takes awhile to load. Ive always felt there was a limit as to how much the game can render, or support. In GWX the campaign files are huge with alot of traffic where before there was hardly any, and more Air and sea units being loaded then any other mod before it. Another thing ive always wondered is how far away does the game render a scripted unit in the RND or SCR layers in relation to the player? And you know, when theres alot of aircraft in biscay bay (via mod i made), you can feel it in the time compression now. In no other mod ive used have i encountered this, and in the mod ive run, ive used similar settings in other games. So its not like i ramped up the aircraft to astronomical porportions.

To sum, i think theres a limit somewhere. Are we near it? Unless theres some bug or quirk that when fixed reduces loadtimes, i think so. But thats just my own opinion, and ive been wrong before.

[bigboywooly]

I have a feeling we arent there yet
The second load part is the longest and thats the campaign and ship\air units
The more we add the longer that will be
I think from a campaign point of view there isnt that much more that needs to be added
No doubt there will be a time when we reach the limits of new units or put up with real long load times

[Madox58]

If you can upgrade your CPU and memory there is no defined limit I've found
in the areas I've looked at.
Load time is determined by how fast your system is and do you have enuff REAL memory.
The SH3 engine "Builds" everything in memory 1st, them kicks anything out of render range into a holding area of memory if you will.
I think we would all get bored and move on before we can truely overwhelm
the engine.
Why else would SH4 use a beefed up version of the same engine?
Ever notice how some of the old games really kick on todays systems?

[Ducimus]

Well, if there is, or is not any hard limiations of the game engine, i think the only ones who could say for sure are Ubisoft. I think their might be, only because of the amount units generated by the game, and all background computations and routines that the game applies against them.

The obvious issue of course, like any other game is system resources. I think the comparision of taking an old game on a newer computer doesn't *always* apply. In some cases, it simply becomes unstable and crashes. But at any rate in terms of resources, when do we hit a point where we've added enough to the game, as to change the listed box requirements?

[pontius]

Hi,
I use a very slim installation of SH3 for modding. I only have 512MBRam so I always have to wait abit. And its extremely annoying in the case of checking little details.

But when i want to play SH3, the loading times doesn't really matter to me. I always take me some time to play SH3, because its a game that needs time, not only the loading of it. For me Sh3 is not a game for a quicky. ;)
So, when I take me my time to play Sh3 i use to read something along the loading-times and the x128-cruise :)

pontius

[The Munster]

If you can upgrade your CPU and memory there is no defined limit I've found
in the areas I've looked at.
Load time is determined by how fast your system is and do you have enuff REAL memory.
The SH3 engine "Builds" everything in memory 1st, them kicks anything out of render range into a holding area of memory if you will.
I think we would all get bored and move on before we can truely overwhelm
the engine.
Why else would SH4 use a beefed up version of the same engine?
Ever notice how some of the old games really kick on todays systems?

I think there is something to this as my ATI Radeon Computer loads quicker than my Nvidia one [both have the same Mods] so I get the impression the former has a more powerful CPU to the latter.

[Hartmann]

I have 512 mg too and it takes a lot of loading, more than 5 minutes :doh: . but i think too that is a "slow game" and when i load it i play for a lot of time .

Perhaps the problem could be if the engine could become becomes unstable or can´t manage too many things, and cause very anoying CTD´s or strange behaviours.
(worse with long loading times because you have to wait a lot of time again.)

I think that GWX put SH3 engine to the limits and nobody know how much can withstand , but this is like crush depth, you never know this deep until you are crushed.

One tip for tests and trials except for dinamic campaigns, is use academy missions or modify the convoy attack training mission with mission editor.
it takes very little time to load and is very good for see some things like textures, u boat behaviour, etc etc.

Single missions are the same than campaign in load times.:doh:

[bigboywooly]

Single missions are the same than campaign in load times.:doh:

That because everything is loaded as if you were running a career
All the shipping\aircraft and all the campaign files

[Mush Martin]

ducimus in a limtied # of cases this may help

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=103633

its meant for mission building or mod testing in mission but is in no
way useful for campaigns
MM
[edit]I realize now this wont help you at all as youre question regards specifically campaign loading

[rascal101]

I would have thought you could tweak and tweak till the cows come home. Speaking of which, will there be any more tweaking or developments from the GWX dev team?

I have a feeling we arent there yet
The second load part is the longest and thats the campaign and ship\air units
The more we add the longer that will be
I think from a campaign point of view there isnt that much more that needs to be added
No doubt there will be a time when we reach the limits of new units or put up with real long load times

[Ducimus]

I would have thought you could tweak and tweak till the cows come home.

No not really. Even if the Sh3 engine is totally open ended, your computer would eventually cap you. if you want to see yoru system CRAWL, create a massive naval engagement with every captial ship you can think of, throw them all together in one epic naval battle and watch the fun. Your system will eventuall slow down big time. I have an AMD 64 3500 with 2 Gigs of ram, and an ATI 1600 with 512 mbs of video ram and it studders quite a bit.

[bigboywooly]

Yep there will be more
There is a minor update around Jan 31st then a planned update in the spring which should include new units and some new stuff
Hopefully it will include some of the other stuff released lately such as the Norfolk and the Repulse

Who knows - maybe Iambecome will have released his merchant pack by then also

[Hartmann]

Yep there will be more
There is a minor update around Jan 31st then a planned update in the spring which should include new units and some new stuff
Hopefully it will include some of the other stuff released lately such as the Norfolk and the Repulse

Who knows - maybe Iambecome will have released his merchant pack by then also

wow :doh: , it means more loading time and more memory

[bigboywooly]

Not sure how large Iambecomes pack has got
But yes all extra units will impact on loading times
Not so much memory wise as the units in view wont be increased just a bigger variety when you come across a convoy etc

Already there is the Norfolk and the Repulse as well as Sergs merc mod 2 that are new since GWX released
Who knows what else may appear
Plus what anyone in GWX is building too ;)

[GT182]

Just finished my 5th GWX patrol and timed the loading when I started from my last save. Which was submerged and in attack position on a lagre enemy convoy where 95% of all the ships could be seen. This I would think should have caused a long load due to all that had to spawn. Weather was clear. SHIII's initial loading was 56 seconds. Career loading was 1 min. 55 seconds. Not too long tho it seemed so. This is with a P4 3.2E CPU with 2 gigs of DDR 400 RAM, and a fresh defrag had been done. Hope it helps for a comparison.

[CWorth]

Well when it starts to take 7+ minutes to load the game is when I will call it quits..I dont have the patience for that.Right now I am at about 1½-2 minutes load time sometimes longer.

[Hartmann]

Well when it starts to take 7+ minutes to load the game is when I will call it quits..I dont have the patience for that.Right now I am at about 1½-2 minutes load time sometimes longer.

let me gess ... 512 of ram ??
i have similar times in port , perhaps in high seas could be slight better

i will buy a 1 gig stick next month, i hope that it could help.

some tips:

close all background programs
restart your computer.
defrag the HD

[CWorth]

Well when it starts to take 7+ minutes to load the game is when I will call it quits..I dont have the patience for that.Right now I am at about 1½-2 minutes load time sometimes longer.

let me gess ... 512 of ram ??
i have similar times in port , perhaps in high seas could be slight better

i will buy a 1 gig stick next month, i hope that it could help.

some tips:

close all background programs
restart your computer.
defrag the HD

Actually no...I have 1 GB of PC3200 DDR Ram.

[Safe-Keeper]

It's possible that I totally misunderstand how SHIII works here, but as far as I get it, all entries in the entire world are generated regardless of your position. I've been pondering this work-around for a while now.

Basically, you split the SCR, LND and RND files into segments. Segment Atlantic 40 is for Atlantic patrols in the 40's, and only features the land units, ships and aircraft of the Atlantic theatre in 1940. Then put all these segments into the /MODS directory of SHIII and have them be JSGME-compatible.

So if you're setting out for a Mediterranean patrol in May '43, just load "Mediterranean '43" in JSGME, and off you go. No entries in the Atlantic, Indian Ocean or elsewhere to harden your CPU's day.

Could this work?

[Ducimus]

It's possible that I totally misunderstand how SHIII works here, but as far as I get it, all entries in the entire world are generated regardless of your position. I've been pondering this work-around for a while now.

Basically, you split the SCR, LND and RND files into segments. Segment Atlantic 40 is for Atlantic patrols in the 40's, and only features the land units, ships and aircraft of the Atlantic theatre in 1940. Then put all these segments into the /MODS directory of SHIII and have them be JSGME-compatible.

So if you're setting out for a Mediterranean patrol in May '43, just load "Mediterranean '43" in JSGME, and off you go. No entries in the Atlantic, Indian Ocean or elsewhere to harden your CPU's day.

Could this work?



I think i understand what your saying, and this is something ive done in a similar way in the past, but its alot of work.

As an example, a looooonng time ago, i started tooling around in the indian ocean. I wanted to make a completely seperate alternate campagin. I deleted EVERYTHING in the RND layer that was NOT in the indian ocean. If i remember correctly the game did load faster then before.

Now the problem with this when taking it as a theme to lower load times is:

a.) seperating the game world in such a way to preserve continuity
(The only concievable areas you could Isolate are the med and indian ocean. The rest of the game world needs to be in one piece because they all interact with each other on a level that can't be seperated.)

b.) implementing this in such a way where it doesnt create alot of issues in the campaign layers. Its a manual "select and delete" process, and its time consuming.

[fredbass]

I think the long loading time is a small price to pay to have all the items which are included in the game.

But it certainly does help to have a good, clean and efficient computer system. Sometimes an extended life on your current system will degregate over time no matter what you do to improve it, except a good ole reinstall of windows. Many of you should probably do that if the current setup has been around for a few years. It will make a big difference.

[rascal101]

Hi and thanks BBW,

Great update.

I hope Iambecomelife's merchant skins are available, or are you dropping a hint?
Will you include Mr Fubar's latest and finest? And what about Mr Anvart's radar and radio direction finder mod, I cant get this last to work. I've still never seen your own (GWX) conning towrer radar mod cos I can never survive the war long enought to get radar!



Yep there will be more
There is a minor update around Jan 31st then a planned update in the spring which should include new units and some new stuff
Hopefully it will include some of the other stuff released lately such as the Norfolk and the Repulse

Who knows - maybe Iambecome will have released his merchant pack by then also

[bigboywooly]

lol no its more wishfull thinking for Iambecomes ships
Doubt thet will be seen till the spring update now anyway as damage modelling has to be done

AFAIK Ref is hard at it with radios and radar stuff

I had to start a career in 44 just to see some bits
Never survive that long either :rotfl:

[Safe-Keeper]

Actually, the regions don't interact with each others at all. There are only battles when you're there to see them, otherwise all the ships simply ignore each others. And what if they do interact? You're not there to see it, are you?

If you're out of Kiel and ordered to patrol the waters off of Ireland, what's it matter if the convoys from the USA to Mediterranean Africa reach empty ports?

If you mean, though, that if, for example, I delete all North American entries, I also delete the convoys out of North America, then yes, you're right. One'd have to be careful to avoid just that.

b.) implementing this in such a way where it doesnt create alot of issues in the campaign layers. Its a manual "select and delete" process, and its time consuming.Actually, it's rather drag-selecting huge chunks of ships and hitting "Delete":p.

[bigboywooly]

Actually, the regions don't interact with each others at all. There are only battles when you're there to see them, otherwise all the ships simply ignore each others. And what if they do interact? You're not there to see it, are you?

If you're out of Kiel and ordered to patrol the waters off of Ireland, what's it matter if the convoys from the USA to Mediterranean Africa reach empty ports?

If you remove the med section then convoys from there wont reach the UK
If you remove the Indian Ocean then similary sailings from there wont reach the UK\Med or south atlantic

To try and seperate each area would be a mammoth task
Plus you lose any options of sailing into or out of the med as you will have them as 2 different areas
Same as trying to reach Penang

Besides you are only reducing the campaign layer size
Near enough every ship\aircraft etc is in worldwide use so they will still all have to be loaded

[Ducimus]

b.) implementing this in such a way where it doesnt create alot of issues in the campaign layers. Its a manual "select and delete" process, and its time consuming.Actually, it's rather drag-selecting huge chunks of ships and hitting "Delete":p.


Its not quite THAT easy. Yes you do that, but you have to be extremly careful that you don't leave free floating waypoints, or accidently delete traffic that extends into the area your trying to seperate.

[rascal101]

Hey there BBW,

Thanks again for the update, pity about Iambecomelife, hope he's listenin
By the way I'm in Oz so what do you mean by Spring I thought you Northern Hemisphere types were in it already !

By the way, on the subject of wishfull thinking, a little while ago Urfish, from this forum found a way to raise the height of ships exhaust smoke.

It blew me away as his mod looked as good as what you see screenies for SH4, here's the post link (HOW to make really god FOG? (haze,blur) - PLZ HELP! (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=103175)) I hope you can track him down and incorporate his mod or tweak or whatever it is into the next GWX update

lol no its more wishfull thinking for Iambecomes ships
Doubt thet will be seen till the spring update now anyway as damage modelling has to be done

AFAIK Ref is hard at it with radios and radar stuff

I had to start a career in 44 just to see some bits
Never survive that long either :rotfl:

[Madox58]

To look at the idea of breaking up stuff, if it could be done,
once you started into a new zone, if you will, you would have another
pause while that info was loaded and the old zone dropped.
Now everyone would complain about that is my guess.
Oh, and can you imagine being caught and chased in and out of 2 zones!!!!!

[Madox58]

Oh Man!!! :o
I got a funky cap now!!! :nope: