GWX - Silent running in Type XXI

[Txema]

First of all, I want to congratulate the developers of GWX... It is excellent !!! :D

Now I want to point out a little concern about the Type XXI in GWX. I have noticed that since the December 23 fix, when I order "silent running" in a type XXI the velocity is lowered to around 2 knots. I understand that it is done to have real silent running and to avoid being heard by the enemy ships. However, this low velocity feels adequate for the normal "U-boats", but not for the Type XXI. If I understand it properly, the noise emited by a submerged U-boat in SH3 does not depend only on its raw velocity, but on the percentage of the maximum possible velocity it is actually using... am I right? In that case, the safe "silent running" velocity for a Type XXI should be much higher than that for the other U-boats... am I right?

Thank you very much for your help !!!


Txema

P.S. In real life, the Type XXI had a "creep" motor that allowed it to navigate under water at moderate velocities and producing very low noise. This seems another important advantage of this U-boat and it would be very good to have it modelled somehow in SH3 !!! (for example allowing it to navigate submerged at moderate velocities (higher that 2 knots!!!) without being detected by the anemy hydrophones).

http://www.uboataces.com/uboat-type-xxi.shtml

[Mush Martin]

First of all, I want to congratulate the developers of GWX... It is excellent !!! :D

Now I want to point out a little concern about the Type XXI in GWX. I have noticed that since the December 23 fix, when I order "silent running" in a type XXI the velocity is lowered to around 2 knots. I understand that it is done to have real silent running and to avoid being heard by the enemy ships. However, this low velocity feels adequate for the normal "U-boats", but not for the Type XXI. If I understand it properly, the noise emited by a submerged U-boat in SH3 does not depend only on its raw velocity, but on the percentage of the maximum possible velocity it is actually using... am I right? In that case, the safe "silent running" velocity for a Type XXI should be much higher than that for the other U-boats... am I right?

Thank you very much for your help !!!


Txema

P.S. In real life, the Type XXI had a "creep" motor that allowed it to navigate under water at moderate velocities and producing very low noise. This seems another important advantage of this U-boat and it would be very good to have it modelled somehow in SH3 !!! (for example allowing it to navigate submerged at moderate velocities (higher that 2 knots!!!) without being detected by the anemy hydrophones).

http://www.uboataces.com/uboat-type-xxi.shtml

I drive a customized Type IXB however as I recall Type XXI had a silent speed of 5 knots. I will look and see if I can locate a way to change silent speed order for type XXI however GWX team also adjusted enemy AI sensors so it may be problematic for you as they are generally saying "in GWX two knots is silent speed" it may be that even if we change the order
it could create a stealth problem for you so before you change it back it up so you can change it back if you need to............Ill let you know here if I find it MM.

[Mush Martin]

First of all, I want to congratulate the developers of GWX... It is excellent !!! :D

Now I want to point out a little concern about the Type XXI in GWX. I have noticed that since the December 23 fix, when I order "silent running" in a type XXI the velocity is lowered to around 2 knots. I understand that it is done to have real silent running and to avoid being heard by the enemy ships. However, this low velocity feels adequate for the normal "U-boats", but not for the Type XXI. If I understand it properly, the noise emited by a submerged U-boat in SH3 does not depend only on its raw velocity, but on the percentage of the maximum possible velocity it is actually using... am I right? In that case, the safe "silent running" velocity for a Type XXI should be much higher than that for the other U-boats... am I right?

Thank you very much for your help !!!


Txema

P.S. In real life, the Type XXI had a "creep" motor that allowed it to navigate under water at moderate velocities and producing very low noise. This seems another important advantage of this U-boat and it would be very good to have it modelled somehow in SH3 !!! (for example allowing it to navigate submerged at moderate velocities (higher that 2 knots!!!) without being detected by the anemy hydrophones).

http://www.uboataces.com/uboat-type-xxi.shtml
OK the best suggestion I have is that I dont know how to change the speed assigned to the order for silent running maybe someone from GWX will stop by with that, in the meantime what I suggest is this

in the file Ubisoft/SilentHunterIII/Data/Submarines/NSS_Uboat21/NSS_Uboat21cfg

you will find this


[Unit]
ClassName=SSTypeXXI
HumanPlayable=YES
Interior=data/Interior/NSS_Uboat21/NSS_Uboat21
UnitType=200
MaxSpeed=15.6
MaxSpeedSubmerged=17.5
Length=76.7
Width=6.6
Draft=6.3
RenownAwarded=200


[Salvo]
1=1,3,5,2,4,6
2=1,2,4,6
3=1,3,5,6
4=1,3,5
5=2,4,6
6=1,4
7=2,3
8=5,6

[Properties]
PeriscopeDepth=16;meters
SnorkelDepth=16;meters
CrashDepth=70;meters
MaxDepth=500;meters
SurfaceDepth=10;meters
TorpLaunchMaxDepth=50;meters
StormConditions=14,0.4;max wind speed [m/s], max rain intensity [0,1]

[EngineProperties]
AllStop=0.00
AheadSlow=0.12
AheadOneThird=0.57
AheadStandard=0.80
AheadFull=0.94
AheadFlank=1.00
BackSlow=-0.26
BackStandard=-0.40
BackFull=-0.53
BackEmergency=-0.66

what you can do is figure out what percentage of your top underwater speed adds up to 5 knots and enter that percentage as ahead slow speed above, notice that no percentage symbols appear in the settings, here percentages are expressed as decimals

the Idea being that when you order silent running immediately after hitting the z to order it you immidiately hit button 1 to order the speed you desire Your Type XXI is equipped with Creeping motors in the game while under silent running they will be engines used.
I once swapped them out for the engines on my type IXB as my reg motors.

also with GWX bouancy you should when at 0 knots you will drift approx two metres above ordered depth this can cause your conning tower to broach. you can adjust periscope depth here but the problem isnt a problem over 4knots so you may not need to.

hope it all helps MM.

[bigboywooly]

Open the above file

In the section

[EngineProperties]
AllStop=0.00
AheadSlow=0.12 <---- change to 0.40
AheadOneThird=0.57
AheadStandard=0.80
AheadFull=0.94
AheadFlank=1.00
BackSlow=-0.26
BackStandard=-0.40
BackFull=-0.53
BackEmergency=-0.66

However as posted above you WILL be detected at silent running
Yes the XXI had a creep motor in RL and indeed does so ingame but its not used
Go figure

[_Gabriel_]

[QUOTE=bigboywooly]Open the above file

In the section

[EngineProperties]
AheadSlow=0.12 <---- change to 0.40


Yes that works, but i like to use the standard 2knots speed, it more intresting when the destroyers starts to get youre sorry a** ;)

No offence, if he want that he should use the change :)


Greetings

_Gabriel_

[Ducimus]

As an aside, from my understanding, your underwater speed isn't what dictates passive hydrophone detection. it's your engine's RPM's. Theoriticlaly you could do 17 kts underwater, but so long as your RPM's were say, 100 or less, you'd be silent enough to escape detection.

edit: i just had an idea, i dont know if it will work, and i dont really care enough to try it myself.

But...


[EngineProperties]
AllStop=0.00
AheadSlow=0.12
AheadOneThird=0.57
AheadStandard=0.80
AheadFull=0.94
AheadFlank=1.00
BackSlow=-0.26
BackStandard=-0.40
BackFull=-0.53
BackEmergency=-0.66


All these are.. i think.. are a percentage of your total speed (or RPM). What if you were to increase the maximim speed of the sub to somethin totally outragous. But then limit, or throttle back its top speed via the engine properies in the CFG file.

For instance, 12% of say.. i dunno. 30 KT's is going to produce alot faster speed then 12% of 17 kts, and perhaps be somewhere near the same level RPM?

Then you take the max speed and cap it at i dunno, 60% .

Just a thought, i dunno if it would work.

[bigboywooly]

True
But the only way to lower RPMs in game is to lower speed

Unless you have a new propulsion system :rotfl:

[Ducimus]

see edit. ;)

I don't know if it would work though.

[bigboywooly]

I see no reason it shouldnt
Trouble is they would all be running around at 30kts after changing the files
:rotfl:
No self restraint

[_Gabriel_]

Hi,


well 17knots are the fullspeed of the XXI, 12% from 17knots are nearly 2knots, so when he raise the percentage to 40 the silent run would be nealry 7knots.
But 7knots silent running? ohh thats a cheat ;)

I like the 2knots if XXI or not, it makes the game sweeter when the damn destroyer lost you ;)


Greetings

Gabriel

[Mush Martin]

True
But the only way to lower RPMs in game is to lower speed

Unless you have a new propulsion system :rotfl:

Hold it Hold It ok you can if you want change the horse power the rpms
and the speed it is possible then to make the type XXI silent in GWX at
5 knots I will be back with the formula this evening I have to test on
the custom sub cause I dont want to ruin my campaign sub.

give me an hour and I will let you know what settings you need
MM.

[Ducimus]

I see no reason it shouldnt
Trouble is they would all be running around at 30kts after changing the files
:rotfl:
No self restraint

Like the tools arent out for everone to use to change the sub's speed however they wish ;) If people are going to do something funky, their going to do it, regardless. :88)

[Ducimus]

Hi,

But 7knots silent running? ohh thats a cheat ;)
l

Well, i dont use the type XXI. I wanted to at some point, but thesedays i just have ZERO interest in it. at any rate, 5 to7 kt silent running a cheat? Personnaly i don't think so. One that that isn't modeled in this game is cavatation. Cavatation makes noise. More advanced propeller designs make less noise. It stands to reason that the type XXI would have less propeller cavatation then other uboats, thereby allowing it to move faster underwater with less noise.

[Mush Martin]

alright well my new home made JSGME Fast Loader for single missions works
great I was In and out four times since my last post.

Here is what I learned

When you change submerged RPM or Horsepower it doesnt appear to change
your sound signature in the game. changing rpm appears to change the pitch and beat rythm of the noise you make but not the volume relative to detection by AI. Changing Horse power will only affect your acceleration curve
and although I thought it would reduce noise output by working less hard to go at speed like the real world it didnt in the research scrimmage.

I am afraid that this avenue of solving the problem is closed it is in the sensor and AI that detection over two knots is happening not in the "noise signature" of the sub, (I think!)

also since I forgot to right them down could somebody look in file analyzer and pm me the correct horsepower and rpm settings for underwater in the type XXI I would like it to be correct when I get there in my campaign.
MM:|\\

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Well, whatever the rate... something you guys need to know about the Type XXI.

IN SH3 it is the BUGGIEST player U-boat available... and understandably so from my point of view. (seeing the challenges that the SH3 Ubisoft dev team faced)

I'm sure that the XXI was the least of their priorities in comparison with the commonly used U-boats.

My research yields a possible TWO short war patrols carried out in the XXI in real life... neither of which yielded any sinkings. (IIRC Erich Topp carried out one of these patrols.)

We will come up with a silent running solution for the XXI in GWX... but it will naturally have to be a compromise of sorts. We'll have to work with what we've got.

KL

[Mush Martin]

Well, whatever the rate... something you guys need to know about the Type XXI.

IN SH3 it is the BUGGIEST player U-boat available... and understandably so from my point of view. (seeing the challenges that the SH3 Ubisoft dev team faced)

I'm sure that the XXI was the least of their priorities in comparison with the commonly used U-boats.

My research yields a possible TWO short war patrols carried out in the XXI in real life... neither of which yielded any sinkings. (IIRC Erich Topp carried out one of these patrols.)

We will come up with a silent running solution for the XXI in GWX... but it will naturally have to be a compromise of sorts. We'll have to work with what we've got.

KL

Thank you for your continuing efforts to refine GWX if I locate a balance that works I will let you know.MM:|\\

[Txema]

Kpt. Lehmann,



We will come up with a silent running solution for the XXI in GWX... but it will naturally have to be a compromise of sorts. We'll have to work with what we've got.

KL

Looking forward to it.

Thank you !!!!


Txema

[Txema]

Mush Martin,

alright well my new home made JSGME Fast Loader for single missions works
great I was In and out four times since my last post.

Here is what I learned

When you change submerged RPM or Horsepower it doesnt appear to change
your sound signature in the game. changing rpm appears to change the pitch and beat rythm of the noise you make but not the volume relative to detection by AI. Changing Horse power will only affect your acceleration curve
and although I thought it would reduce noise output by working less hard to go at speed like the real world it didnt in the research scrimmage.

I am afraid that this avenue of solving the problem is closed it is in the sensor and AI that detection over two knots is happening not in the "noise signature" of the sub, (I think!)

also since I forgot to right them down could somebody look in file analyzer and pm me the correct horsepower and rpm settings for underwater in the type XXI I would like it to be correct when I get there in my campaign.
MM:|\\

Thank you very much for all your research !!!


Txema

[Hartmann]

5 knts it´s not a cheat, it was the real XXI performance :yep: , for this was so lethal and advanced.
http://uboat.net/technical/electroboats3.htm

At 2 knts lost lost advantage and is like a VII boat.:doh:

[Vikinger]

Iam thinking i same terms that 5 knots is not cheating.

Silent running is to reduce the caviation so the enemy cant hear the noise it creates.

If you take a tin can (vic sub) That barely dont have any streamlines. it takes more power to force it thrue water at 5 knots. They where forced to go down to 2 knots so they used less power (rpm) to reduce the caviation that was created.

Whit the XXI sub that was far more stream line shaped, it didint take same power to go in 5 knots that it did for a vic so result was, less power (rpm) and less caviation but ability to go at 5 knots.

[Mush Martin]

Iam thinking i same terms that 5 knots is not cheating.

Silent running is to reduce the caviation so the enemy cant hear the noise it creates.

If you take a tin can (vic sub) That barely dont have any streamlines. it takes more power to force it thrue water at 5 knots. They where forced to go down to 2 knots so they used less power (rpm) to reduce the caviation that was created.

Whit the XXI sub that was far more stream line shaped, it didint take same power to go in 5 knots that it did for a vic so result was, less power (rpm) and less caviation but ability to go at 5 knots.
This was historical performance of the vehicle. therefore this is enhancement or correction but not a cheat.MM.

[edit] believe me I cheat all the time and this aint it try porpoiseing down to 110 metre's with your gun crew on deck at 170 knots thats cheating, this is nothing. MM

[bigboywooly]

I beleive the original speed mentioned was 7 kts is a cheat
lol
Its not so much a cheat anyway
You can have silent running at 30kts if you want but it seems anything over 2 kts will get you detected
SH3 doesnt model the advanced nature of the XXI apart from maybe torpedo payload and reload times
Whilst the creep engine is part of the boat - I have seen it being repaired on the odd time I have used one - mainly in testing
It isnt used as an engine
You have your diesels or electrics
No other option

[Mush Martin]

I beleive the original speed mentioned was 7 kts is a cheat
lol
Its not so much a cheat anyway
You can have silent running at 30kts if you want but it seems anything over 2 kts will get you detected
SH3 doesnt model the advanced nature of the XXI apart from maybe torpedo payload and reload times
Whilst the creep engine is part of the boat - I have seen it being repaired on the odd time I have used one - mainly in testing
It isnt used as an engine
You have your diesels or electrics
No other option

when I originally looked it over and I put two creeper engines into my type IXB I got them working at normal speeds even. they do work are you sure that they dont automatically engage on the silent running order unseen, or have you previously seen something the makes you certain they arent used by type XXI in game.

MM.

[BooBooLovesAll]

I beleive the original speed mentioned was 7 kts is a cheat
lol
Its not so much a cheat anyway
You can have silent running at 30kts if you want but it seems anything over 2 kts will get you detected
SH3 doesnt model the advanced nature of the XXI apart from maybe torpedo payload and reload times
Whilst the creep engine is part of the boat - I have seen it being repaired on the odd time I have used one - mainly in testing
It isnt used as an engine
You have your diesels or electrics
No other option
when I originally looked it over and I put two creeper engines into my type IXB I got them working at normal speeds even. they do work are you sure that they dont automatically engage on the silent running order unseen, or have you previously seen something the makes you certain they arent used by type XXI in game.

MM.

Did these "creeper engines" reduce your noise emitter?

[bigboywooly]

Only that at normal silent running you are detected so they are not quiet

If they do indeed work then I stand corrected but they seem to make no difference
Well when I have used them anyway

[Mush Martin]

I beleive the original speed mentioned was 7 kts is a cheat
lol
Its not so much a cheat anyway
You can have silent running at 30kts if you want but it seems anything over 2 kts will get you detected
SH3 doesnt model the advanced nature of the XXI apart from maybe torpedo payload and reload times
Whilst the creep engine is part of the boat - I have seen it being repaired on the odd time I have used one - mainly in testing
It isnt used as an engine
You have your diesels or electrics
No other option
when I originally looked it over and I put two creeper engines into my type IXB I got them working at normal speeds even. they do work are you sure that they dont automatically engage on the silent running order unseen, or have you previously seen something the makes you certain they arent used by type XXI in game.

MM.
Did these "creeper engines" reduce your noise emitter?
it was indeterminate whether they did or not reduce signature I will test it if I get a chance next time Im working on type XI it doesnt take long to switch them out, it may take time to accurately determine result.
MM

[edit] ps if it does work then it would probably solve the detection problem just by swapping creepers for mains, I cant recall clearly
but for some reason I feel I was detected with vanilla enemies at 6 knots but I feel I was safe at 5 at the time. cant remember for sure and will have to test but I can test that simultaneous to other items I need to get type XI working, as I already know that the damage screen will report engines destroyed when I put them in, (they still work though)[edit although maybe the props didnt???]

[Mush Martin]

You know something else just occurred to me as I was backreading the thread today.

many players Im sure who play with noise meter on have had the experience
of being at all stop and having forgotten to go silent seen the detector go red when enemy escort approaches red doesnt mean your detected its just a warning to the player that the circumstances they are in have created conditions of almost certain detection. after warning goes red and player remember they never went silent they hit z and order it and detector goes green.

therefore, baseline sound signature of all subs in SH3 is reduced by a percentage calculation when z is pressed. otherwise warning would stay red under above circumstances.

therefore if there is a flat percentage for all subs then it wont help but if there is a seperate percentage for each type then altering percentage of noise reduction under silent running for type XXI would solve the problem
[edit] alternatively we could make a quickie mod to add after acquiring type XXI to correct silent speed.
I am certain from above experience that this "ratio of noise reduction" exists somewhere, BBW?
MM:hmm:

[bigboywooly]

Yes the stealth meter is a false indication
Just because its red doesnt mean you are detected
Means there is a possibilty of detection
Therefore if you decrease speed or submerge or hit silent running it goes back green

I never use it so cant say for sure
I know I am detected when the escorts deviate from previous course then increase speed in my general direction
No doubt the meter would be red well before then
Which is why most players complain of being detected km's away

[Mush Martin]

Yes the stealth meter is a false indication
Just because its red doesnt mean you are detected
Means there is a possibilty of detection
Therefore if you decrease speed or submerge or hit silent running it goes back green

I never use it so cant say for sure
I know I am detected when the escorts deviate from previous course then increase speed in my general direction
No doubt the meter would be red well before then
Which is why most players complain of being detected km's away
any idea where I might locate a setting that controls ratio of reduction????

[edit] just to clarify further for all just because you are at all stop and silent running doesnt mean the enemy cant see you either.
however under all circumstances where the enemy can see you currently the indicator will be red.

[Mush Martin]

well what weve learned so far is that creeper engines work on type XXI

Rather than swap them in I just excluded the main electric engines as previously on type IXB I had creepers up to 10 knots it didnt surprise me
that they worked, one would assume that failure of the electric engines and utilization of the creep engines werent part of the damage model.
in the real world this would have left the sub with three or four knots

It occurs to me that although the type XXI was known to be very quiet at
5 knots speed I believe that this wasnt actual silent speed I believe silent speed remains 3 or 4 knots, no different than in russian coldwar subs of one or two decades later, As type XXI is where the russians started there modern design work from, it seems unlikely that after a decade or two they wouldnt have matched its performance or surpassed it.

So fellow cake eaters lets all go and see what uboatnet has to say about actual operational speeds for type XXI.

Edit well of course plenty on type XXI but not on operational silent speed, does any body know for certain???

MM.