GWX News

[Kpt. Lehmann]

It is the natural course of evolution for things to get even better. The GW Dev team has listened intently to the user and has addressed all major issues. (such as difficulty of installation and key mod replacements)

A word about performance related issues: When I put together GW 1.0... I did so with a system that BARELY met recommended specifications to run stock SH3... and GW 1.0 and 1.1a ran smoothly on that system... even using TankerIV's seafloor texture mod.

You must have the recommended specs to run SH3 1.4b stock to expect good performance. Many players fail to keep their own system free of spyware and viruses which have an entirely negative effect on performance... as does running ANY other program in the background such as your web browser.... and GW is often blamed for these performance problems.

Also, GWX will be a direct auto install that will self-verify that you are applying it to a stock SH3 1.4b patched installation of the same. If this is not done properly... it will not istall. This is to protect us and you from misunderstanding... and the old "GW screwed up my installation when..." statements.... or "I got a CTD when I ran GWX... there must be a GWX bug!!!" stuff.

I'm sure you can understand that it is extremely frustrating over here when you find that it is a user issue most of the time. That being said... we understand that not everyone has an equal familiarity with the SH3 file structure.

This is not the GWX team looking down our noses at anyone. It is just how things are.

A word about the texture folders in SH3.

The low resolution texture folder in SH3 is useless... I suggest all users DELETE it as it is a drain on system resources.

The high res texture folder should be kept as EMPTY AS POSSIBLE!!!! ALL textures should be re-packed into dat files wherever possible.

Both the low res and high res folders are "checked" by the engine when loading and spawning units etc etc... The more there is in there... the more performance is affected.

ALL textures in GWX that can be packed into dat files will be so.

With the exception of U-boat interiors... ALL textures in GWX have been checked for size and wherever found re-sized to stock SH3 regular texture sizes.

There is almost NO difference in game in detail by doing so!

Direct installation + dat file repackaging + texture size corrections = BIG IMPROVEMENT over the original GW 1.0 performance... which was already good by SH3 recommended spec standards...

AND

doing so has allowed us to DOUBLE the content without doubling the size... infact a compression test of the beta so far that I did earlier this week...

showed that for the moment... the GWX beta... with all of its inclusions and improvements...

Is SMALLER at the moment than GW 1.1a even though it is a major rewrite.

GW 1.0 modded 2800 files.

GWX mods 5200 files and counting... with little projected memory size increase over GW 1.1a.

Concerning the size of the mod in relation to other contemporary games... We are well within the middle of the road. Complaints about the size of GW/GWX are baseless IMHO.

How's that for "more bang for your buck?"

:smug: Please note... this is the first time I can ever recall using the "smug" smiley.

Yours truly has done most of the dat file re-packaging... TEDIOUS STUFF!!! Regarding attention to detail... ALL of the team has done a yoeman's job ... and the job of an army.

...to awesome effect.

I'm really happy that the original devs left SH3 in a moddable state... and no offense is meant to them...

...but EVERYTHING we have done... has been without their help... and with challenges from every possible angle that threatened to wreck our work... and even the existence of our little band of U-boatmen.

From everything I can tell, are still on target for beta testing to begin following the conclusion of next weekend... give or take a few days to account for expected uploading issues.

The beta session will last approximately 30 days and will be a closed session due to recent events. We have formulated a list of approximately 25 users (we know nothing of their system specs) that we will be contacting in private regarding the beta test.

The beta is quite solid as it stands... and an open session would be quite chaotic... but we know we aren't perfect and aren't afraid to say so. Besides, 50 more mk1 eyeballs over 30 days should be enough to shake loose anything of consequence that we missed.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

The Noob wrote:

"Kpt. Lehmann,

I don't like that new auto installer. I mean, what about JSGME? And the many changes i had to do for GW 1.1a to be like i want it...i don't like that idea, seriously. How about making an "Advanced Install" option where you can select where it installs and so on?

That damn auto installer spoils GWX for me."


My answer: We understand the concern... I've had many discussions concerning the employment of the same. Though GWX contains much of the things broad-spectrum players enjoy... such as candy for the eye and ear...

...the construction of GWX has been ALL ABOUT THE CODE... and making the AI react more aggressively towards the player. (no we didn't touch the executable and no we did not mod the AI itself... but we did mod the HELL out of how it perceives its surroundings.)

The modding we have done... from gunnery... to the AI reactions... to the damage model... and even allowance for changes in the campaign files... is knitted together like a spiderweb.

The auto-installer is here to stay for us as it removes the NUMBER ONE complaint for potential GW users... Difficulty of installation.

Indeed we have modded some things so fully and completely... that any alteration of key files will yield in some cases more than one game-breaking change.

This in actuality can make the use of JGSME after installation of GWX a really good idea...

However, I can tell you this after hundreds of PM's and communications elsewhere... that the average gamer does not know how to mod his or her game... and they do not generally come here to post to see what else is out there.

Without being a jerk... We have to consider that our user base reaches into many places we only hear about out of total surprize... and after media exposure factored into the mix... We have begun to recognize that we've hit a nerve somewhere... and how it may serve the SH3 community as a whole.

The auto installer makes it easier for the new guy to use... broadens our user-base... and brings this community new modders that may build "the next great thing."

We have to protect the integrity of the GW mod. There is no two ways about it. This does not preclude individuals modding their game to meet their personal wishes... It is about producing a quality mod... and auto-installers are not at all uncommon where other freeware mods are concerned.

In the end... whether you love us or hate us... we are assisting with the continued longevity of the Silent Hunter series and submarine simulations beyond today... and protecting freeware modders by competing with payware producers that have failed to live up to expectations of the most basic kind... credit... where credit is due.

When we first started... we simply had one goal... to produce a good mod that could stand on its own come what may... rise or fall... irregardless of whatever else was out there...

Never in our wildest dreams did we think that it would go as far as it has...
... but since it has gone this far... We intend to be good custodians until the GW story is finished.

I've read post after post by new SH3 users who say "Hi I just bought SH3 and have installed GW... Wow!!!" etc etc etc...

You might think this makes me happy... No... I get some satisfaction out of it yes... but it makes me feel responsible for their experience with GW because it reflects on this community.

I take that obligation seriously... WE take that obligation seriously at GW HQ.

[The Noob]

I still think it is not nice that you aren't going to be able to extract the GWX files into a specific directory to "take a look" at them. An "Advanced user" option would be really good. That auto installer "checks that you are installing it on your SHIII install" basically restricts this.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Sorry mate. We designed GWX to be played... not disassembled. You can still take a look at them in the SH3 program files.

Otherwise there is no point to our releasing GWX as a package. We might as well release a whole series of optional mods and be done with it.

No Herr Noob... we've chosen our course.

No matter how good we are or what we release... Someone won't like it or be happy with it. That much is inevitable no matter what form the release takes. Without a doubt others will object to the auto-installing mod concept as well.

Auto-installers are common elsewhere... there is no reason it cannot be the same in our case.

The benefits FAR outweigh any perceived negatives.

I hope you'll try it... but if you feel you cannot... we wish you the best.

Our decision has been made mate... and in the process you still have complete ability to tweak your own game via JGSME.

No one is harmed or restricted by this process... and those who simply don't like our work... don't have keep it... or even download it.

... but if ya don't... yer missin' out! :arrgh!:

[The Noob]

Of course i'm going to try it out. ;)

The only things i changed was the aditional speech files ("Computing solution for aft tubes", i didn't like that) and changed the crash dive soundfile. And that i still can do with auto install.

I, as a l33t Computerdude with mad skillz like the way GW 1.1a installed, thats all. Just said the negative things about auto-install.

I am sure as hell going to try GWX! :D

I don't "disassemble", i just have the Silent Hunter 3 Compulsive Tinkering Disorder (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=99629)

[Kpt. Lehmann]

LOL... how the heck do you think that GW got started!!!

(Help I can't stop modding!!! Please send a rescue launch!!!):lost:

[The Noob]

:rotfl::rotfl:

[mr chris]

It all sounds great to me i cant wait to start a new career with GWX:yep: :arrgh!:
Sounds to me you guys went the whole way barvo:up: :rock:

[danlisa]

I agree with the Kpt about the auto-installer. We modders are a minority and as such GWX has to be catered to the vast numbers of players who want to just load & play.

Besides, if GWX is all it's cracked up to be who needs to mod it (not much pressure then guys:lol: )

Of course, there will be some who will want to personalize their installation but that shouldn't be too much of a hardship to inspect and make changes.

[fredbass]

Well I'm sure we'll still be able to make some changes with SH3 Commander though. :up:

[Potoroo]

Does the auto-installer at least give you the option of choosing the installation folder you want to use? If it doesn't that's a major design flaw. Having it doesn't impede the install-and-play user but it does unnecessarily impede the modder.

For example, my stock installation is my guaranteed clean installation. No mods. It doesn't even get played. It's only there to copy from. If I install GWX it will absolutely NOT go anywhere my stock installation. No mod ever will.

[danlisa]

....No one is harmed or restricted by this process...

I'm sure that there will be nothing to worry about regarding the install path.

These guy's know what they are doing.

I think that we need to concentrate on the positives of GWX as no-one but the GW Dev team know what to expect.

I have multiple installs at the moment, much the same as many of you and I'm not worried in the least.

I will take GWX as it comes.

[jumpy]

Having recently put SHIII back on to my PC, then tootling off to find this GW mod (which crashed on install as one of the source files is corrupted- I downloaded it again and will be attempting a second go tonight) I was inder the impression you could simply install the GW mod to the JSGME 'mods' folder and 'install' it that way using the mod enabler... :-?

[Potoroo]

We're not talking about GW, we're talking about the new and currently unreleased GWX.

I don't care if the interdependencies of the many changes mean GWX should be installed intact and without other mods. I already run multiple installations of SH3 so one more won't be an issue.

I care greatly if the auto-installer refuses to allow me to specify the installation folder as I will not let it or any other mod install over my stock 1.4b. It's simply not going to happen on my PC. I rely on having a known clean copy of 1.4b as the source for my other installations.

[danlisa]

I assume that if you have renamed your clean copy of SH3+1.4b to something other than the original installation path then this won't be a problem.

[Sailor Steve]

I only use one install. Whenever I want to try a new supermod I simply make a complete copy of my Data folder in a safe place, then install away. Anything I don't like I can always use the original to restore the files I want. Simple as pie, piece of cake...just don't ask the mod's creators for help when you screw it up; you're on your own then.:dead:

[Pants]

One of the main things i love about GWX is...it gets harder as the war progresses as it should do, as in RL.

[danlisa]

That's not fair Pants. You're teasing us:D

[jumpy]

We're not talking about GW, we're talking about the new and currently unreleased GWX.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but if the GWX mod is anything like GW install process, what difference does it make? you can still specify the install pathway, appending C\Program Files\Ubisoft\Silent Hunter 3\mods\the grey wolves mod or whatever...

[scrapser]

Based on the original post, I'm assuming that GWX will have to be installed on a fresh install of SH3 v1.4b...that is unless an update version will also be made available.

scrapser

[Razman23]

Based on the original post, I'm assuming that GWX will have to be installed on a fresh install of SH3 v1.4b...that is unless an update version will also be made available.

scrapser

This is the only way that Team GWX knows for sure that their mod will install without any issues.

With so many copies of SHIII floating out there and not knowing what mods have been installed, this is the best thing.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Does the auto-installer at least give you the option of choosing the installation folder you want to use? If it doesn't that's a major design flaw. Having it doesn't impede the install-and-play user but it does unnecessarily impede the modder.

For example, my stock installation is my guaranteed clean installation. No mods. It doesn't even get played. It's only there to copy from. If I install GWX it will absolutely NOT go anywhere my stock installation. No mod ever will.

No sweat. All you need to do then is temporarily rename your stock SH3 copy to say... "xSilentHunterIIIx" Make a fresh install from the SH3 disk... patch it to 1.4b... install GWX... and finally rename the new SH3 copy "SilentHunterIIIGWX" or whatever you like... make a shortcut from the executable to your desktop.

Lastly go back and rename "xSilentHunterIIIx" to "SilentHunterIII" and you are done.

You guys are panikin' over nothin' ;)

[scrapser]

Based on the original post, I'm assuming that GWX will have to be installed on a fresh install of SH3 v1.4b...that is unless an update version will also be made available.

scrapser

This is the only way that Team GWX knows for sure that their mod will install without any issues.

With so many copies of SHIII floating out there and not knowing what mods have been installed, this is the best thing.

Sounds fine to me. Just checkin'

scrapser

[stabiz]

Well, I love auto installers! (with options) Long live tools that prohibit us clowns from messing up stuff that really shouldn`t be messed with. I have NO clue how many times I`ve had to reinstall SH3.

[Roads88]

Well, I love auto installers! (with options) Long live tools that prohibit us clowns from messing up stuff that really shouldn`t be messed with. I have NO clue how many times I`ve had to reinstall SH3

Abso friggen lutly:up:

[Potoroo]

You guys are panikin' over nothin' ;)
Having the autoinstaller autodetect the default installation and only install into it is no guarantee it's installing over a clean 1.4b. OTOH, any effective test that any given SH3 instalation is clean would work regardless of the path, so your strategy is fundamentally flawed. It won't do what you intend it to do and it unnecessarily inconveniences some users.

One of the rules of good program design is that you never unnecessarily take away choice from the user. By all means provide defaults but you should never force your code to install somewhere the user doesn't want. I'm sorry but you clearly haven't thought this through very thoroughly.

[P_Funk]

I agree that the auto-installer ought to give the user some control. And I know that I can rename my default folder to something else and so on but you know that having to manually change stuff is gonna make someone screw up.

I like the idea of the installer scanning to see if it is SH3 1.4b. However I do think that you should be able to select a different path for the mod install. This wouldn't even affect the whole obcession with making sure people can't blame the modders. Make it so the installer detects the installation and if its patched and let us direct it where to look. That is easier and simpler than having to rename folders and such. In fact making the directory selectable (with a suggested default) and having a little answer to the scan if it's wrong of "the installation is not patched to 1.4b" or "there is no SH3 installation present" would make it very obvious to the user what he did wrong.

I'mjust giving you feedback here. Regardless of what you think and do I'm gonna be playing GWX.

[Bungo_Pete]

Well I for one am greatful for auto installs,such a pain to put in a mod and hunt and peck in the directoryfor the right path.I want to get it an play it.I really am hoping thou that escorts ability to see at night (visuallying speaking of course) has been fixed,this one thing really kills the game for me.

[Ducimus]

That's not fair Pants. You're teasing us:D

How's this. If my previous knowledge of GWX and its campaign are not terribly out of date, GWX will probably hold you over tell SH4 hits the shelves. The dev teams signiture pic..its kind of a clue.

Of course.. im not on the project anymore (resigned) , so i could be blowing alot of hot air too ;) I look forward to seeing GWX come to fruitration. Infact, i may even abandon my own mod after its released. ( and ive been working on my own game for over a year now ;) )

[Lupo]

i am waiting for GWX............i am waiting,i am.........:doh:

mfg lupo!:lol: :yep: :rock:

[bigboywooly]

You guys are panikin' over nothin' ;)
Having the autoinstaller autodetect the default installation and only install into it is no guarantee it's installing over a clean 1.4b. OTOH, any effective test that any given SH3 instalation is clean would work regardless of the path, so your strategy is fundamentally flawed. It won't do what you intend it to do and it unnecessarily inconveniences some users.

One of the rules of good program design is that you never unnecessarily take away choice from the user. By all means provide defaults but you should never force your code to install somewhere the user doesn't want. I'm sorry but you clearly haven't thought this through very thoroughly.

Bit of a bold statement to make when you dont have the auto installer in front of you
All questions can be answered fully when the builder of the auto installer is back in town
He wont mind me saying that the builder is Jaeson Jones and I or no one else can question his ability so before all jumping to wild conclusions let the man answer you first

[shegeek72]

Please excuse me if this has already been answered.

Will GWX have a damage model like Drifter's? <ducks!> :o:lol:
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http://users4.ev1.net/%7Etaragem/sh3_dark2.jpg

[danlisa]

Please excuse me if this has already been answered.

Will GWX have a damage model like Drifter's? <ducks!> :o:lol:
--
http://users4.ev1.net/%7Etaragem/sh3_dark2.jpg

I believe so, or a 're-worked' version of.

I think we'll have to wait and see.

[VonHelsching]

All the damage models of merchant ships, stock and new have been reworked almost from scratch. Also the most serious bugs in warships damage models have been taken care of.

[Safe-Keeper]

the GWX beta... with all of its inclusions and improvements...

Is SMALLER at the moment than GW 1.1a even though it is a major rewrite.Wow.

As for the auto-installer, I 100% love it. Makes everything a whole lot easier. I'm looking into using InstallMaker myself (hears The Noob sniffle).

[shegeek72]

All the damage models of merchant ships, stock and new have been reworked almost from scratch. Also the most serious bugs in warships damage models have been taken care of.
I meant the damage model of the U-boats, i.e. longer repair times.
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http://users4.ev1.net/%7Etaragem/moon_sub3.jpg

[Pants]

I meant the damage model of the U-boats, i.e. longer repair times.

I'm not telling you so Meh:p
Nah just joking,an Update is coming soon.

[Safe-Keeper]

A fragile u-boat with few hit points, longer repair times and eternal
torpedo re-load times sounds good to me.

[The Noob]

Only good if the escorts have been reworked for Realistic overall expierence. :know:

[Safe-Keeper]

Either way, it warms my heart whenever I see another GWX news update. The mod has been fantastic so far, and I'm eagerly awaiting the expansion. Even Grey Wolves gets dull after a while, so I'm looking forward to the newest release. I think I'll open up a career just to cruise around (go down the Suez Canal, for example;)).

[Capt.Crackerjack]

:up: I am ALL in favor of the auto-installer method for GWX.
Hoorahhh!!!:rock:

[Potoroo]

Bit of a bold statement to make when you dont have the auto installer in front of you
All questions can be answered fully when the builder of the auto installer is back in town
Then why this nonsense:

"All you need to do then is temporarily rename your stock SH3 copy to say... "xSilentHunterIIIx" Make a fresh install from the SH3 disk... patch it to 1.4b... install GWX... and finally rename the new SH3 copy "SilentHunterIIIGWX" or whatever you like... make a shortcut from the executable to your desktop."

[Safe-Keeper]

In a perfect world, I suppose the GWX team could upload two copies of their project, one for JSGME and one with an auto-installer. I guess they have a good reason for apparently not doing so, though.

Only a few weeks 'til Grey Wolves Expansion... Only seven days 'til best-friend home from hospital in Oslo... Only a quarter 'til Silent Hunter 4...:ping: Life. Is. Good.

[bigboywooly]

In a perfect world, I suppose the GWX team could upload two copies of their project, one for JSGME and one with an auto-installer. I guess they have a good reason for apparently not doing so, though.

Only a few weeks 'til Grey Wolves Expansion... Only seven days 'til best-friend home from hospital in Oslo... Only a quarter 'til Silent Hunter 4...:ping: Life. Is. Good.

Yes there are very good reasons which will become apparent at the time
So instead of a few complaints about something noone yet has - you have plenty of notice that you need a fresh 1.4b patched CLEAN install off SH3

So what are you waiting for

:rotfl:

[danlisa]

you have plenty of notice that you need a fresh 1.4b patched CLEAN install of SH3

Oh, did that ages ago.:smug:

[Safe-Keeper]

So what are you waiting forJust that your computer needs six weeks to uninstall a game, doesn't mean that mine can't handle it in far less than thathttp://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/icons/icon10.gif.

I'll put it off until GWX is out. Last time I uninstalled it I accidentally also deleted everything I had added for NorOps around Oslo, including a working battle of the Drobak Sound. Uninstalls are bad luck:roll:.

[bigboywooly]

So what are you waiting forJust that your computer needs six weeks to uninstall a game, doesn't mean that mine can't handle it in far less than thathttp://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/icons/icon10.gif.

I'll put it off until GWX is out. Last time I uninstalled it I accidentally also deleted everything I had added for NorOps around Oslo, including a working battle of the Drobak Sound. Uninstalls are bad luck:roll:.

Why uninstall ?
I just make a fresh installation using the repair choice from the DVD - after making sure my current install has been renamed other than SilentHunterIII

Nooooo dont delete your Nor ops
Looking forward to that

[Safe-Keeper]

Why uninstall ?
I just make a fresh installation using the repair choice from the DVD - after making sure my current install has been renamed other than SilentHunterIIII s'ppose so.

Nooooo dont delete your Nor ops
Looking forward to thatI'm working on it right now. No worries, it's proceeding as smooth as a torpedo breezing through clear water.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Please excuse me if this has already been answered.

Will GWX have a damage model like Drifter's? <ducks!> :o:lol:
--
http://users4.ev1.net/%7Etaragem/sh3_dark2.jpg

No it will not.

Nvdrifter's mod is an extremely honorable venture. However, its alterations to the U-boat damage model and Crew Efficiency have far-reaching consequences where I feel the negatives outweigh the positives.

For that mod to work correctly... crue efficiency values must be set to "false." All crew efficiencies in GWX must be set to "true" for DOZENS of things to work properly.

I have explored this issue carefully at length and repeatedly. We may include it as an optional mod for users AFTER the release of GWX with an attached explaination of what its possible negative effects are on GWX... but it is very unlikely to comprise part of the GWX core files.

I am not having a go at NvDrifter here. I hope all can understand though that I must protect the good things we already have. Our current U-boat damage model I feel to be one of our stronger points. It is nice and fragile as a U-boat DM should be IMHO.

Furthermore... we have had somewhat extended repair times over stock since GW 1.0... Granted these are nothing like the hours of fun you may get from NvDrifter's mod... but they are extended all the same.

Finally, my research indicates that typically damage received in the field meant one of three things.

1) Slight damage which could be repaired quickly

2) Heavy damage resulting in the loss of the U-boat (Includes surrendering)

3) Heavy damage non-repairable by crew causing boat to return to base.

Our current U-boat damage model reflects all three general fields... So when something isn't broken...

I'm going to be VERY hard put to let someone fix it. (unpopular decision maybe... correct decision... without a doubt.)

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Regarding the auto-installer... Sorry guys, I have already explained our decision regarding it.

Furthtermore, it checks multiple files to ensure that the SH3 copy it is installing to is SH3 patched to 1.4b

The benefits far outweigh the negatives.

It is the "professional" way to do things. (no we aren't paid one single penny for our work)

You can still use JGSME over the top of GWX.

Our decision is made.:yep:

[stabiz]

Only a few weeks 'til Grey Wolves Expansion... Only seven days 'til best-friend home from hospital in Oslo... Only a quarter 'til Silent Hunter 4...:ping: Life. Is. Good.

According to UBRS GWX will be out in the second half of december? Thats not a few weeks?

[The Munster]

That's me 'up the creek' then; I don't have a fresh installation/1.4 and my Computer won't let me install or repair; as soon as I feed my Computer the DVD and try to do either of these, I get error messages.
I was hoping I could either install via JSGME or install 'over the top' of my GW 1.1a ?!

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Only a few weeks 'til Grey Wolves Expansion... Only seven days 'til best-friend home from hospital in Oslo... Only a quarter 'til Silent Hunter 4...:ping: Life. Is. Good.

According to UBRS GWX will be out in the second half of december? Thats not a few weeks?

About a week ago I announced beta testing would begin in approximately two weeks.

The beta test session will last approximately 30 days.

The only other delays I can see is potentially having uploading difficulties to different mirrors. Uploading is a real issue to say the least.

For the release of GWX we will also need to have more than one mirror in place.

[Potoroo]

Regarding the auto-installer... Sorry guys, I have already explained our decision regarding it.

Furthtermore, it checks multiple files to ensure that the SH3 copy it is installing to is SH3 patched to 1.4b
That's not the issue. I haven't seen anyone complain about that. The issue is the install path. If your 1.4b check is effective it will work regardless of the path so you can and should write an installer that suits all your users. It's not rocket science but it is good PR.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Regarding the auto-installer... Sorry guys, I have already explained our decision regarding it.

Furthtermore, it checks multiple files to ensure that the SH3 copy it is installing to is SH3 patched to 1.4b
That's not the issue. I haven't seen anyone complain about that. The issue is the install path. If your 1.4b check is effective it will work regardless of the path so you can and should write an installer that suits all your users. It's not rocket science but it is good PR.

I'm sorry you feel that way mate. I feel differently and see it to be common sense that meets our aims. I don't see this as a PR issue at all.

[Potoroo]

I'm sorry you feel that way mate. I feel differently and see it to be common sense that meets our aims. I don't see this as a PR issue at all.
It's already been explained to you why it's not going to meet your aims but is going to unnecessarily inconvenience some of your users. Since it's entirely possible for you to both meet your aims and satisfy all your users it can't be anything but bad PR.

I repeat: no-one is complaining about the need for it to be installed over clean 1.4b. No-one is complaining about the requirement for it to be installed intact. The only issue is where it gets installed. You have not provided the slightest reasonable justification to force it to only install over the default path.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

I'm sorry you feel that way mate. I feel differently and see it to be common sense that meets our aims. I don't see this as a PR issue at all.
It's already been explained to you why it's not going to meet your aims but is going to unnecessarily inconvenience some of your users. Since it's entirely possible for you to both meet your aims and satisfy all your users it can't be anything but bad PR.

I repeat: no-one is complaining about the need for it to be installed over clean 1.4b. No-one is complaining about the requirement for it to be installed intact. The only issue is where it gets installed. You have not provided the slightest reasonable justification to force it to only install over the default path.

I understood exactly what you said Potoroo. What you are voicing is your opinion.

This does not prevent multiple installations nor the use of JGSME. It does set up a favorable environment for the new user to make a successful installation on the first attempt. The final installation can be moved to a different directory with no more effort than selecting a different installation path.

More experienced users know how perform these operations. There is no decision that we can make that will satisfy all users. I am making every attempt to be polite where your repetitive posts are concerned. We will have the usual "bad PR" along with the good. It is only natural.

Now as I have already explained to you. Our decision is made.

[Potoroo]

I understood exactly what you said Potoroo. What you are voicing is your opinion.
My professional opinion, yes.

Our decision is made.
I understand that, but when it blows up and the complaints start coming in it'll be on the record that you were warned.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

I understood exactly what you said Potoroo. What you are voicing is your opinion.
My professional opinion, yes.

Our decision is made.
I understand that, but when it blows up and the complaints start coming in it'll be on the record that you were warned.

Taken under advisement. My professional response.

[Ducimus]

As many times as ive reinstalled SH3 over the last couple weeks, i honestly don't see what the big deal is.

[danlisa]

:damn: :damn: :damn:
Why is it Human Nature to concentrate on negatives?

[Potoroo]

As many times as ive reinstalled SH3 over the last couple weeks, i honestly don't see what the big deal is.
Some of us have better things to do than unnecessarily reinstalling SH3. It's completely avoidable in this instance.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

As many times as ive reinstalled SH3 over the last couple weeks, i honestly don't see what the big deal is.

Exactly. A bunch of nuthin' over its default installation path.

[Ducimus]

It's not like reinstalling a program takes a herculean effort.

It's also not that hard to have a duel install incase something scews up. If you were serious about it, you could have SH3:stock, SH3:gwx, and Sh3:NYGM all on the same drive with each one runing as an entirely different and independant game if you wanted to. Assuming one has the drive space that is. Most ill have is two installs personnaly, but thats primarly for modding reasons.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Some of us have better things to do than unnecessarily reinstalling SH3. It's completely avoidable in this instance.

Some of us have better things to do than answer the same question on the same thread over and over again too.

Any mod gets complaints. Ours is no different. It is no-nonsense simple math to know that the more users you have... the more complaints you have.

You have stated your opinion and queried regarding your concern. I have addressed your concern clearly.

Further repetitive non-constructive posts from you regarding this issue can be viewed as trolling and/or baiting.

[Potoroo]

It's also not that hard to have a duel install incase something scews up. If you were serious about it, you could have SH3:stock, SH3:gwx, and Sh3:NYGM all on the same drive with each one runing as an entirely different and independant game if you wanted to. Assuming one has the drive space that is. Most ill have is two installs personnaly, but thats primarly for modding reasons.
I do precisely that (indeed, that was the very reason I wrote MultiSH3). In a world where a 250GB SATA II drive goes for around US$75, SH3 1.4b uses around 2.44GB so space shouldn't be an issue. My argument is that the autoinstall process as described will unnecessarily interfere with just that sort of configuration. If it were not for the fact of so many people running multiple installations there would be no issue over the installation path. Given the number of supermods it's presumptuous, to say the least, for any one of them to presume it can take over the default path.

I'm hoping Jaesen will get back and inform us that the installer does not in fact work as described. Since there's no sound reason for GWX not to have its cake and eat it too I doubt he'll have implemented something so stupid.

Some of us have better things to do than answer the same question on the same thread over and over again too.
The post to which you responded was in response to someone other than yourself, so there was no requirement for you to respond.

Further repetitive non-constructive posts from you regarding this issue can be viewed as trolling and/or baiting.
My posts have been entirely constructive. I've shown how you can improve a bad design decision, thus satisfying both your stated aim and your users. The fact you don't agree with me in no way makes that non-constructive.

[stabiz]

I understood exactly what you said Potoroo. What you are voicing is your opinion. My professional opinion, yes.

Our decision is made. I understand that, but when it blows up and the complaints start coming in it'll be on the record that you were warned.

Uhm ... :huh: Going postal, potoroo?

[Potoroo]

Uhm ... :huh: Going postal, potoroo?
I no longer own a gun so you can relax.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

It's also not that hard to have a duel install incase something scews up. If you were serious about it, you could have SH3:stock, SH3:gwx, and Sh3:NYGM all on the same drive with each one runing as an entirely different and independant game if you wanted to. Assuming one has the drive space that is. Most ill have is two installs personnaly, but thats primarly for modding reasons.
I do precisely that (indeed, that was the very reason I wrote MultiSH3). In a world where a 250GB SATA II drive goes for around US$75, SH3 1.4b uses around 2.44GB so space shouldn't be an issue. My argument is that the autoinstall process as described will unnecessarily interfere with just that sort of configuration. If it were not for the fact of so many people running multiple installations there would be no issue over the installation path. Given the number of supermods it's presumptuous, to say the least, for any one of them to presume it can take over the default path.

I'm hoping Jaesen will get back and inform us that the installer does not in fact work as described. Since there's no sound reason for GWX not to have its cake and eat it too I doubt he'll have implemented something so stupid.

Some of us have better things to do than answer the same question on the same thread over and over again too.
The post to which you responded was in response to someone other than yourself, so there was no requirement for you to respond.

Further repetitive non-constructive posts from you regarding this issue can be viewed as trolling and/or baiting.
My posts have been entirely constructive. I've shown how you can improve a bad design decision, thus satisfying both your stated aim and your users. The fact you don't agree with me in no way makes that non-constructive.

Again, for having our "stupid" default installation path be the usual / normal SH3 default path... There is no issue.

Secondly, if you were so concerned about our welfare and feel that we are making a mistake you have means to handle this in private.

Thirdly, JScones and I have been in close conversation regarding this matter for several days. I typically go with his suggestions. I view him as the expert on this matter.

Fourthly, even if you go around me directly to Jaeson and protest our methods. He is courteous enough to cuss and discuss issues with me afterwards in private...
...you won't see him trashing an informative thread over a personal interest.

Finally, part of being a project manager is making tough decisions. If I were screwing it up so royally... We wouldn't have come this far.

[WilhelmSchulz.]

Quit bikering about this auto install. It Kpt. Lehmann wants to use one he can.

[Potoroo]

Again, for having our "stupid" default installation path be the usual / normal SH3 default path... There is no issue.
If it is only a default and if that default can be changed by the user according to need then there indeed is no issue but that is not how the autoinstaller has been described. The issue is not the default. It's standard practice for installers to assume a default installation path. It's also standard practice that the installation path can be changed if the user chooses. If the autoinstaller in fact follows these standard practices then it has been misdescribed and all this argument has been unnecessary.

Fourthly, even if you go around me directly to Jaeson and protest our methods. He is courteous enough to cuss and discuss issues with me afterwards in private...
...you won't see him trashing an informative thread over a personal interest.
I didn't say I expected him to trash anything. I did say I hoped he would inform us we had been misinformed about how the autoinstaller works. I've also dealt with him and he was helpful and cooperative when we were sorting out compatibility issues between SH3 Commander and MultiSH3. He and I are both professional programmers so I would expect him to understand the issues. That's why I have difficulty understanding why he would have implemented the autoinstaller the way you describe it.

Finally, part of being a project manager is making tough decisions. If I were screwing it up so royally... We wouldn't have come this far.
We're talking about one thing only.

Quit bikering about this auto install. It Kpt. Lehmann wants to use one he can.
No-one has said he can't.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Again, for having our "stupid" default installation path be the usual / normal SH3 default path... There is no issue.
If it is only a default and if that default can be changed by the user according to need then there indeed is no issue but that is not how the autoinstaller has been described. The issue is not the default. It's standard practice for installers to assume a default installation path. It's also standard practice that the installation path can be changed if the user chooses. If the autoinstaller in fact follows these standard practices then it has been misdescribed and all this argument has been unnecessary.

Fourthly, even if you go around me directly to Jaeson and protest our methods. He is courteous enough to cuss and discuss issues with me afterwards in private...
...you won't see him trashing an informative thread over a personal interest.
I didn't say I expected him to trash anything. I did say I hoped he would inform us we had been misinformed about how the autoinstaller works. I've also dealt with him and he was helpful and cooperative when we were sorting out compatibility issues between SH3 Commander and MultiSH3. He and I are both professional programmers so I would expect him to understand the issues. That's why I have difficulty understanding why he would have implemented the autoinstaller the way you describe it.

Finally, part of being a project manager is making tough decisions. If I were screwing it up so royally... We wouldn't have come this far.
We're talking about one thing only.

Quit bikering about this auto install. It Kpt. Lehmann wants to use one he can.
No-one has said he can't.

I also listen to what people don't say. You are bothered that we aren't giving you a simple way to de-construct the mod package per your post on page one or two.

Your first post on this thread:

Does the auto-installer at least give you the option of choosing the installation folder you want to use? If it doesn't that's a major design flaw. Having it doesn't impede the install-and-play user but it does unnecessarily impede the modder.


Allowing for a user to have a convenient place to dump the GWX files for the sake of picking and choosing does not concern us.

[Ducimus]

http://www.fauxfooddiner.com/spilled_milk/spilt_milk.jpg

[bigboywooly]

Dear god just STFU
When you have the auto installer in front of you and you dont like it by all means voice your opinion
Till then quit moaning about what may and may not suit YOUR preference

Its quite simple really

And IF it does come with only one installation path and you dont like it then dont use it

Again - quite simple really

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Thank you BBW.

Now we've come full circle... and I have to get ready for my real life work.

LOL. The fun never stops.

[Potoroo]

I also listen to what people don't say. You are bothered that we aren't giving you a simple way to de-construct the mod package per your post on page one or two.

Your first post on this thread:

Does the auto-installer at least give you the option of choosing the installation folder you want to use? If it doesn't that's a major design flaw. Having it doesn't impede the install-and-play user but it does unnecessarily impede the modder.


Allowing for a user to have a convenient place to dump the GWX files for the sake of picking and choosing does not concern us.
In that case I think you've radically misunderstood what I've said. I have said I have no problem with the requirement GWX be installed intact. I have said I have no problem with the requirement GWX be installed over a clean 1.4b. I just want that clean 1.4b to be somewhere other than the default path. That's it. No deconstruction of GWX is involved.

In my scenario, for which (as I said way back) I purposely keep my default 1.4b pristine, is that I copy that to another folder and subsequently install GWX over the copy. Very simple, very clean. No reinstallation of anything is required.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

I also listen to what people don't say. You are bothered that we aren't giving you a simple way to de-construct the mod package per your post on page one or two.

Your first post on this thread:

Does the auto-installer at least give you the option of choosing the installation folder you want to use? If it doesn't that's a major design flaw. Having it doesn't impede the install-and-play user but it does unnecessarily impede the modder.


Allowing for a user to have a convenient place to dump the GWX files for the sake of picking and choosing does not concern us.
In that case I think you've radically misunderstood what I've said. I have said I have no problem with the requirement GWX be installed intact. I have said I have no problem with the requirement GWX be installed over a clean 1.4b. I just want that clean 1.4b to be somewhere other than the default path. That's it. No deconstruction of GWX is involved.

In my scenario, for which (as I said way back) I purposely keep my default 1.4b pristine, is that I copy that to another folder and subsequently install GWX over the copy. Very simple, very clean. No reinstallation of anything is required.

Whatever the rate your stock install is not harmed. I maintain one myself and have re-named it to protect it from accidents to begin with. Whatever the installation method. You can protect your clean installation with a simple re-naming process which I described. (which you referred to as "nonsense"... direct quote) There are more work-arounds for the same available than that as well.

You are stating that a thing is difficult or cantankerous when it is not.

Sigh.

[HunterICX]

I also listen to what people don't say. You are bothered that we aren't giving you a simple way to de-construct the mod package per your post on page one or two.

Your first post on this thread:

Does the auto-installer at least give you the option of choosing the installation folder you want to use? If it doesn't that's a major design flaw. Having it doesn't impede the install-and-play user but it does unnecessarily impede the modder.


Allowing for a user to have a convenient place to dump the GWX files for the sake of picking and choosing does not concern us.
In that case I think you've radically misunderstood what I've said. I have said I have no problem with the requirement GWX be installed intact. I have said I have no problem with the requirement GWX be installed over a clean 1.4b. I just want that clean 1.4b to be somewhere other than the default path. That's it. No deconstruction of GWX is involved.

In my scenario, for which (as I said way back) I purposely keep my default 1.4b pristine, is that I copy that to another folder and subsequently install GWX over the copy. Very simple, very clean. No reinstallation of anything is required.

:doh: Really WTF is ur problem....a Path.
I have 3 Installations on my computer
I have 3 Icons on my Desktop
3 Icons that lead to the right Path
Launching is no problem
and why do u care where its installed anyway? really wtf!:damn:
and now most of the Auto installers are ''Default path'' some others let u choose
live with what you get an stfu about it.

[Potoroo]

and why do u care where its installed anyway? really wtf!
Because it's my PC.
live with what you get an stfu about it.
If you have an argument to put then fine. If you don't then follow your own advice.

[HunterICX]

and why do u care where its installed anyway? really wtf!
Because it's my PC.
live with what you get an stfu about it.
If you have an argument to put then fine. If you don't then follow your own advice.

:shifty: Now really, ok its ur Pc but its Their Mod they have chosen the Auto Installer and they spend the time to create it.
solution: install it on default...Cut and Paste it to the folder you want , takes a bit of time, but I think ur the only one that complains about it. so dont see the need that mods need to change the auto installer , and my guess they stick with the installer they have now so. if ur like it or not...you are going to have to install it on default before you can move it to where you want it to be.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Meanwhile... back on the ranch...

Whatever the rate your stock install is not harmed. I maintain one myself and have re-named it to protect it from accidents to begin with. Whatever the installation method. You can protect your clean installation with a simple re-naming process which I described. (which you referred to as "nonsense"... direct quote) There are more work-arounds for the same available than that as well.

Potoroo, you are stating that a thing is difficult or cantankerous when it is not.

Sigh.

[WilhelmSchulz.]

SHUT UP!!! JUST SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!!:damn:

[Pants]

FFS!
3 simple solutions
a) do what everyone has suggested regarding multiple installs
b) Install someplace else and move it yourself
c) dont bother downloading it

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Further update from the GWX dev team.

Every last one of us expects to be COMPLETELY bald by this time next year.

At some point though maybe at different times... we also expect to spend some time in nice foam-rubber romper-rooms following large doses of good-old Thorazine.

:|\\

That is if chain-smoking and heavy drinking doesn't kill us first...

Oh wait a minute... methinks our wives and girlfriends will shoot us first.

(maybe if we hide the bullets well enough... we can look forward to full baldness.)

:arrgh!:

[Pants]

Heck i'm already bald:stare:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Heck i'm already bald:stare:

Then you better duck. ... ummm FRYING PAN ALERT!!! ;)

[HunterICX]

@Kpt.Lehman

I think ur wive is going to do this to u.
http://www.onzin.com/view.php?id=1813

:rotfl:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

:o :o :o That is not cool.

See you guys later... am off to work.

[Cdre Gibs]

I cant speak for any1 else here, but every time I get a new game and after the first install of said new game (with any patches required) I copy the entire game an dump it into my Backups Drive. This now becomes my SAFE install that just sits there. It has no short cuts, can never be launched by accident and when ever I need an original file, I just copy an paste those files to my Temp Modding folder (which is an actual whole HDD of its own). So D:/ drive has my SH3 playing version, J:/ Drive has an original backup copy plus a backup copy of GW and GWX versions. K:/ Drive is the Temp Modding Drive with models / skins / ect ect under construction for all games that I mod.

Now, IF I was to say (heavan forbid) want a NYGM version as well, I'd simply delete whats inside my D:/ Drive SH3 folder (currently GWX) and copy paste back in the original files from my backup J:/ Drive. Install NYGM as per normal default and copy all the now NYGM version and paste that into a new folder in my Backups Drive. Then repeat the delete, copy my GWX version and paste back into D:/ Drive.

But since I dont play any other mod for SH3 I have no need to have different versions set up to be playable. And why should I, GWX is by far the most comprehensive mod for SH3. Has more bug fix's than any other mod, more content than any other mod, has by far the best campaign than any other mod and now has, I personaly feel, the most balanced historical feel to SH3. In fact I'd go so far as to say GW and GWX are almost unoffical patch's for SH3. That being the case why would I, if I was the average SH3 user, want to install GW/GWX to some other off the cuff directory when I really need it in my playable SH3 install!

GW1.1a has had over 200 000 D/L's - how many ppl are here at subsim, no where near that number and of that number how many are SH3 playes, even smaller again. So why would we make GWX suit a small noisy minority who by their very nature can mod SH3 and fix/sort any small personal dislikes to their version of GWX when we have a user base thats a silent majority that have no means or know how to get client support for their GWX install. It all boils down to 1 thing - Keep It Simple Stupid. the simpler and straight forward we keep the install of GWX the LESS chance ppl will have of it fúcking up. When we hope to surpass the 200 000 D/L's of GW1.1a with GWX, I think you would agree that your personal beef is pretty pathetic in the grand scheme of things and is a very wee small minor issue that has no real bearing on how we should release GWX.

PS: 200 000 D/L's is a conservitive number btw, IIRC the last time I checked the N° of D/L's it was close to 500 000. 1 person with a beef v's 200 000 to 400 000+ happy users, you do the maths!

[stabiz]

Is it just me, or is this forum getting ruder by the minute?

[bigboywooly]

Is it just me, or is this forum getting ruder by the minute?

Probably
Its not always intentional but some things are just so trivial in the whole picture of things it drives you to despair

[Ducimus]

Is it just me, or is this forum getting ruder by the minute?

Minor drama is all. Get yourself a bag of popcorn, pull up a seat and enjoy the show. :lol:
edit: i think Kapt should derail the drama and put up another teaser to drool over. :D

[Dowly]

Is it just me, or is this forum getting ruder by the minute?

Nah, it´s just you. ;)

Anyways, to the topic.

Why it is so hard to make a fresh install of SHIII to the DEFAULT PATH, add GWX and then just copy&paste the install to where ever you want? I do that all the time and have had no problems with it.

[Potoroo]

So why would we make GWX suit a small noisy minority who by their very nature can mod SH3 and fix/sort any small personal dislikes to their version of GWX
Strawman. No-one has requested GWX be changed.


the simpler and straight forward we keep the install of GWX the LESS chance ppl will have of it fúcking up.
True. No-one is requesting the installation be made complex, merely that the user can change the installation path. Your average user with only one installation would simply accept the default offered and click Next.

When we hope to surpass the 200 000 D/L's of GW1.1a with GWX, I think you would agree that your personal beef is pretty pathetic in the grand scheme of things and is a very wee small minor issue that has no real bearing on how we should release GWX.
Argumentum ad numerum fallacy.

PS: 200 000 D/L's is a conservitive number btw, IIRC the last time I checked the N° of D/L's it was close to 500 000. 1 person with a beef v's 200 000 to 400 000+ happy users, you do the maths!
If they're so happy with GW's installation procedure then why is the GWX team going to such lengths with GWX's installation procedure?

[stabiz]

Someone should make a poll about this. :rotfl:

Edit: This reminds me about the Windshield wiper-gate at the RSC forums before GTR 2 came out. OMG.

[Cdre Gibs]

Strawman.

Are you a NYGM fanboy, cause i have to ask, WTH are you smoking????

True. No-one is requesting the installation be made complex, merely that the user can change the installation path. Your average user with only one installation would simply accept the default offered and click Next.

And since the average user is our MAIN user, your point being??

Argumentum ad numerum fallacy.
Yeah your only a small minor annoyance, deal with it.

If they're so happy with GW's installation procedure then why is the GWX team going to such lengths with GWX's installation procedure?

We aint, thats the whole bases of your argument, talk about daft!!!!

[fredbass]

It really seems pretty logical to me. They're making it idiot proof. Those who need to know how to do something else can just come to Subsim.com for all the answers to their problems :know: :ping:

as long as they know how to read. :lol:

[Cdre Gibs]

Bingo!!! Give that man a cigar!!l

[Ducimus]

Bingo!!! Give that man a cigar!!l

http://lispmeister.com/images/big-cigar.jpg

[Potoroo]

True. No-one is requesting the installation be made complex, merely that the user can change the installation path. Your average user with only one installation would simply accept the default offered and click Next.

And since the average user is our MAIN user, your point being??
If you'd been keeping up you'd know full well my point is that the autoinstaller as described unnecessarily inconveniences some users whereas if it adhered to standard practices it would suit all users and still meet your aim of simplifying the installation procedure.

If they're so happy with GW's installation procedure then why is the GWX team going to such lengths with GWX's installation procedure?

We aint
That's not what the project manager said.
thats the whole bases of your argument, talk about daft!!!!
It would indeed be daft so it's a good thing my refutation of your particular assertion is incidental to my argument.

[WilhelmSchulz.]

Bingo!!! Give that man a cigar!!l

http://lispmeister.com/images/big-cigar.jpg
I dont think thats a cigar. :shifty: :rotfl:

[fredbass]

Bingo!!! Give that man a cigar!!l

http://lispmeister.com/images/big-cigar.jpg
I dont think thats a cigar. :shifty: :rotfl:

It's not a cigar?? Well it that case, thanks, but it's been a while. I don't think I'll need that much. :|\\

[d@rk51d3]

No, but it'll still smoke for a while......:rotfl:

[Ducimus]

Maybe its a fat cuban? I dunno, i just did a google image search for Cigar, and that one just stood out :D

[Soviet_Sharpshooter]

Only a few weeks to go till i can raid ports in my country of residence :rock:

Say if i wanted a list of new ports that will be in GWX.... who would be the person to beg? :oops:




* lol im now a seaman *

[Ducimus]

hmm...
Gibs maybe. Or rubini. That is, if their willing to tell you before GWX is released ;)

I have a pretty good idea, but you coudlnt pry it out of me with a crowbar.

[Cdre Gibs]

Say if i wanted a list of new ports that will be in GWX.... who would be the person to beg?

New Ports List:

Very Long!

Enjoy! ;)

[Soviet_Sharpshooter]

Oh ok, even if there was just one port in Australia, like Sydney or Darwin id live happily with that :up: ill try and reframe from greedy thoughts :nope:

[JScones]

It's already been explained to you why it's not going to meet your aims but is going to unnecessarily inconvenience some of your users. Since it's entirely possible for you to both meet your aims and satisfy all your users it can't be anything but bad PR.

I repeat: no-one is complaining about the need for it to be installed over clean 1.4b. No-one is complaining about the requirement for it to be installed intact. The only issue is where it gets installed. You have not provided the slightest reasonable justification to force it to only install over the default path.
OK, there appears to be a simple misunderstanding which I will now clarify for all.

The auto-installer DOES NOT automatically install into any path. Yuck. My professional peers would ostracise me. Actually, I would ostracise myself.

The installer (perhaps we'll drop the "auto" to avoid further confusion) works like most other installers - you have total control over where you want to install it. Indeed, you can select ANY path on your computer.

However, it will only CONTINUE the installation process if the path YOU HAVE SELECTED is verified as a clean, unmodded SH3 patched to v1.4b. The installer is smart enough to identify this. If your clean install is at "C:\SH3\MyCleanInstall\" or "C:\SH3\MyGWXInstall\", then so be it. Yes, it *defaults* to the registry path (to suit most players), but it certainly does not *force* this path. Here's a screenshot to demonstrate...

http://www.users.on.net/~jscones/tmp/GWXInst1.gif

Notice the folder I selected? Well, here's the next screen...

http://www.users.on.net/~jscones/tmp/GWXInst2.gif

Oops, silly me. Better select a different path (no point showing a screenshot of a suitable path as the installer just moves to the next page).

FWIW my clean SH3 is at "C:\Games\SilentHunterIII- Clean v1.4b". The installer will happily install to it, even though my "default" path is "C:\Games\SilentHunterIII".

Please guys, the installer is nothing to stress over. Its intent is to avoid installation "accidents" caused by forgetting to patch SH3 or forgetting to remove mods from your SH3 prior to installing GWX. It's aimed to help the majority of players that just want to play GWX, not jump through 100 hoops to get it installed and running correctly. Indeed, a scan of the current GW threads demonstrates that these two "accidents" are perhaps the main cause of GW running problems. The installer is simply one of many examples of the GWX team listening to the community.

And let's be logical here - GWX is meant to be *played*, and the only way it can be played is for it to be installed over a clean, unmodded SH3 patched to v1.4b (regardless of where it is installed). So it's silly not to cater for this fact when installing.

I'll also point out here that to make GWX installation even easier still for many players, the installer will include German, Spanish and hopefully French translations.

Now, to address another question, "why can't GWX be installed into/via JSGME?". Well, a number of reasons. Fundamentally, what's the point of having an installer that doesn't do the full job?

Primarily though, GWX modifies OVER 5,000 files. Players must remember that GWX is not a simple tweaking of a few files or the addition of a pretty image or two; GWX totally overhauls SH3. The file interdependancies and such are mind boggling alone. Thus the potential for mistakes if manually installing are far greater.

Players could prolly liken GWX to the v1.4b patch - you install the patch and it becomes your base for all subsequent modifications. GWX is meant to be the same - you install it over v1.4b and it becomes your base for any subsequent modifications. And as you can imagine, with a stable base, subsequent mod problems are less likely, or indeed easier to fault-find and fix.

Plus, GWX makes other changes that JSGME does not natively support - in other words, players would need to follow further instructions to install GWX correctly. Not very user friendly. I certainly do not think that it is appropriate to expect players, no matter how competent they may be, to undertake file manipulation to get GWX to work on their computer where with one click it's all done for them, correctly. See my above comment re mistake potential. ;)

Of course, *after* GWX is installed, you can use JSGME to your heart's content.

If only I hadn't gone interstate for two days...

[Pants]

Thank you JScones
We all happy now?
Good
Can we move along now please!

[VonHelsching]

Plus, GWX makes other changes that JSGME does not natively support - in other words, players would need to follow further instructions to install GWX correctly.

Well put, JS.

Guys, read the above quote again ;) ;) ;)

...

Von

[jaxa]

Nobody satisfy everybody.
I prefer auto installer (better to say semi-auto installer). It's probably stabler and looks more professional than install GWX via jsgme.

[danlisa]

<Sound Trumpet> JScones to the rescue.....

If only I hadn't gone interstate for two days...

That'll teach you for neglecting your GWX duties;)

It is a shame that we have spent so much time/effort concentrating on one minor issue when there is so much that needs to be praised/applauded.

Now back to work the lot of you:D

[Ducimus]

WW2 Newsreel : U-boat in the indian ocean :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rg_LJQu2B2s

edit: Figures, has to be U-177 in that newsreel. ANY view or picture of an IXD2, is freaking rare.
http://www.uboat.net/men/gysae.htm

[Safe-Keeper]

Argumentum ad numerum fallacy.A sub forum isn't the place for debate jargon.

The installer (perhaps we'll drop the "auto" to avoid further confusion) works like most other installers - you have total control over where you want to install it. Indeed, you can select ANY path on your computer.

However, it will only CONTINUE the installation process if the path YOU HAVE SELECTED is verified as a clean, unmodded SH3 patched to v1.4b. The installer is smart enough to identify this. If your clean install is at "C:\SH3\MyCleanInstall\" or "C:\SH3\MyGWXInstall\", then so be it. Yes, it *defaults* to the registry path (to suit most players), but it certainly does not *force* this path. Here's a screenshot to demonstrate...Awesome.

[d@rk51d3]

Thanks for building that bridge JScones, now everybody can get over it.:up:

[Samwolf]

http://www.users.on.net/~jscones/tmp/GWXInst1.gif

Notice the folder I selected? Well, here's the next screen...

http://www.users.on.net/~jscones/tmp/GWXInst2.gif



You play Panzer Elite!!:rock:

Another heavily modded game.

[Potoroo]

It's already been explained to you why it's not going to meet your aims but is going to unnecessarily inconvenience some of your users. Since it's entirely possible for you to both meet your aims and satisfy all your users it can't be anything but bad PR.
I repeat: no-one is complaining about the need for it to be installed over clean 1.4b. No-one is complaining about the requirement for it to be installed intact. The only issue is where it gets installed. You have not provided the slightest reasonable justification to force it to only install over the default path.
OK, there appears to be a simple misunderstanding which I will now clarify for all.
The auto-installer DOES NOT automatically install into any path. Yuck. My professional peers would ostracise me. Actually, I would ostracise myself.
Thank you for this clarification. It seems we were indeed misinformed, hence the confusion. As one of your professional peers I approve.
The installer (perhaps we'll drop the "auto" to avoid further confusion) works like most other installers - you have total control over where you want to install it.
It's an important distinction. The use of "autoinstaller" set off one of my internal alarms which is why I was concerned enough to ask for clarification. "Autoinstaller" and "installer" are not the same thing.
However, it will only CONTINUE the installation process if the path YOU HAVE SELECTED is verified as a clean, unmodded SH3 patched to v1.4b.
This accords with something I said right at the beginning: if the 1.4b verification process is truly effective then the path is irrelevant.

I'm pleased with everything you've said. The installation procedure you describe follows standard practices and meets the aim of simplifying the installation without unnecessarily inconveniencing some users at the expense of others. Furthermore, and here I confess to a selfish interest, it won't inconvenience or confuse users of MultiSH3 which means I don't expect to be bombarded with emails or PMs requesting assistance.

One quick question: does the 1.4b verifier require the installation to be absolutely clean or does it ignore the presence of things like jsgme.exe or multish3.exe in the game's default folder? If you want to talk about this in detail via email then that's fine with me.

[Cdre Gibs]

As one of your professional peers I approve.

Yeah right, get a dunny roll, your dribbling.

I'm pleased with everything you've said.

Your stamp of approval is not required nor desired.

One quick question: does the 1.4b verifier require the installation to be absolutely clean or does it ignore the presence of things like jsgme.exe or multish3.exe in the game's default folder?

Well unless clean now means dirty an full of crap, then I'd say no.

[Potoroo]

I'm pleased with everything you've said.

Your stamp of approval is not required nor desired.
That's not for you to say. This is between professionals.

[Cdre Gibs]

Actualy, it is, just as it is for any one from the GW Mod Team.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Potoroo,

From this professional. Do not think for one moment that I do not have a say in the form the installer takes. Furthermore, I do listen to my team and the concerns they voice matter to me when I make decisions.

Again, thanks for peeing all over a thread that was meant to be positive. If you are such an intellectual and professional, you would have identified the logical requirement to handle things further in private.

Take your hoity toity elitist attitude and stick it in yer.... favorite orifice.

Anyone can talk a thing to death. So feel free. I'm done with this thread and with you. After 12 hours of real drama... I have no more time for yours. The floor is now COMPLETELY yours to spout whatever crap you like.

[mountainmanUK]

To get back to a positive note......

I don't care what kind of installer it has, so long as it can get GWX onto my computer somehow that will allow me to play!!!

It wouldn't matter if it came as 27 different Zipped-up files that I needed to decompress and merge first!

Or even if it was on 488 floppies that I had to shove, one by one, into my non-existent Floppy Drive (Remember the good old days?)

Even if my system got screwed up by it, I wouldn't complain about it, I would just get my CDs out and reinstall whatever I needed to.Some may say "Why wouldn't you complain that your system had been screwed by this $&^*($£ Mod"....my reply would be.......


"COS IT'S FREE!!! And I was the one who decided to run it"

So long as I can have this fab-sounding "X-pansion" to my SH3 and GW (and also NYGM;) ) playing......I AM ONE HAPPY BUNNY!!

Thank you, GW Team, for all your hard work.

Signed,

One extremely grateful Kaleun:D

[Roads88]

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper
Only a few weeks 'til Grey Wolves Expansion... Only seven days 'til best-friend home from hospital in Oslo... Only a quarter 'til Silent Hunter 4...:ping: Life. Is. Good.

According to UBRS GWX will be out in the second half of december? Thats not a few weeks?

How about this "In a few weeks it will be just a few weeks":up:

Thanks guys for all your hard work. I for one am very happy you are doing this for us.:sunny:

[ref]

Or even if it was on 488 floppies that I had to shove, one by one, into my non-existent Floppy Drive (Remember the good old days?)

Specially when floppy #476 gives an error :D

Ref

[The Munster]

I also listen to what people don't say. You are bothered that we aren't giving you a simple way to de-construct the mod package per your post on page one or two.

Your first post on this thread:

Does the auto-installer at least give you the option of choosing the installation folder you want to use? If it doesn't that's a major design flaw. Having it doesn't impede the install-and-play user but it does unnecessarily impede the modder.


Allowing for a user to have a convenient place to dump the GWX files for the sake of picking and choosing does not concern us.
In that case I think you've radically misunderstood what I've said. I have said I have no problem with the requirement GWX be installed intact. I have said I have no problem with the requirement GWX be installed over a clean 1.4b. I just want that clean 1.4b to be somewhere other than the default path. That's it. No deconstruction of GWX is involved.

In my scenario, for which (as I said way back) I purposely keep my default 1.4b pristine, is that I copy that to another folder and subsequently install GWX over the copy. Very simple, very clean. No reinstallation of anything is required.

:doh: Really WTF is ur problem....a Path.
I have 3 Installations on my computer
I have 3 Icons on my Desktop
3 Icons that lead to the right Path
Launching is no problem
and why do u care where its installed anyway? really wtf!:damn:
and now most of the Auto installers are ''Default path'' some others let u choose
live with what you get an stfu about it.

Hope you don't mind me asking but do you launch a particular version of the game by clicking on the associated icon ? The answer is important to me as I have 1 version on my Computer and 2 on my external Hard Drive but do not have a stock SHIII with 1.4 [I accidentally deleted it] Basically, I have 3 Frankenstein Monsters then killed the creator ! .. and .. I can't bring him back to life; when I put the DVD in and try to install or repair, I get error messages so I will wait until the GWX release then take it from there.

[mr chris]

WTF Why is Gibs in the brig?:nope:
What the hell has he done wrong?
The person that brought all the trouble to this thread was Potoroo with his elitest attuide:yep:

[Gizzmoe]

WTF Why is Gibs in the brig?:nope:
What the hell has he done wrong?

Several things. He´ll be back in seven days.

[mr chris]

Well i look forward to next thursday it will be a duller place without him around. :yep:
It is a shame he is in the brig for seven days for speaking his mind. That is if he is in the brig for what he posted on this thread?

[HunterICX]

I also listen to what people don't say. You are bothered that we aren't giving you a simple way to de-construct the mod package per your post on page one or two.

Your first post on this thread:

Does the auto-installer at least give you the option of choosing the installation folder you want to use? If it doesn't that's a major design flaw. Having it doesn't impede the install-and-play user but it does unnecessarily impede the modder.


Allowing for a user to have a convenient place to dump the GWX files for the sake of picking and choosing does not concern us.
In that case I think you've radically misunderstood what I've said. I have said I have no problem with the requirement GWX be installed intact. I have said I have no problem with the requirement GWX be installed over a clean 1.4b. I just want that clean 1.4b to be somewhere other than the default path. That's it. No deconstruction of GWX is involved.

In my scenario, for which (as I said way back) I purposely keep my default 1.4b pristine, is that I copy that to another folder and subsequently install GWX over the copy. Very simple, very clean. No reinstallation of anything is required.

:doh: Really WTF is ur problem....a Path.
I have 3 Installations on my computer
I have 3 Icons on my Desktop
3 Icons that lead to the right Path
Launching is no problem
and why do u care where its installed anyway? really wtf!:damn:
and now most of the Auto installers are ''Default path'' some others let u choose
live with what you get an stfu about it.

Hope you don't mind me asking but do you launch a particular version of the game by clicking on the associated icon ? The answer is important to me as I have 1 version on my Computer and 2 on my external Hard Drive but do not have a stock SHIII with 1.4 [I accidentally deleted it] Basically, I have 3 Frankenstein Monsters then killed the creator ! .. and .. I can't bring him back to life; when I put the DVD in and try to install or repair, I get error messages so I will wait until the GWX release then take it from there.

First of all when I reinstalled my computer I installed 1 Fresh SH3 installation.
and that one I copied/Paste 2 times in the same folder but with different names
Before Pasting change the name of the Original Folder first to SH3 Stock or else Windows will ask to Overwrite that map

1.SH3 Stock
2.SH3 +MM (MM = Minor Mods)
3.SH3 GW

I copied 3 Icons on the Desktop with the corresponding names
Sh3 Stock
Sh3 MM
Sh3 GW

first they are pointing to the same SH3 folder , so you right click
select Properties and then you change the Target to for example
"C:\Program Files\Ubisoft\SH3GW\sh3.exe"
and the Start In field
"C:\Program Files\Ubisoft\SH3GW\"

[Gizzmoe]

It is a shame he is in the brig for seven days for speaking his mind. That is if he is in the brig for what he posted on this thread?

No, that´s not the reason.

[Onkel Neal]

Well i look forward to next thursday it will be a duller place without him around. :yep:
It is a shame he is in the brig for seven days for speaking his mind. That is if he is in the brig for what he posted on this thread?

Gibbs sent the moderator (Gizz) a PM quoting some arguing in this thread: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=337084#post337084

Gibbs meant that as "reporting a bad post", which is fine. But Gizzmoe didn't know that, he thought Gibbs sent the PM by mistake, that is was meant for "thepoon", so Gizz replied "Wrong address"

Instead of explaining, Gibbs fired back some very rude and unacceptable remarks aimed personally at Gizz. Gibbs has been asked in the past to be more cordial, by me and other mods. It's just not helpful for people to abuse other people in PM.

[mr chris]

Thanks Neal for letting us know the details of what he done wrong.

[WilhelmSchulz.]

oh. I was starting to get the felling that the mods just suspend people for jolies. I was wrong.:oops:

[stabiz]

Or even if it was on 488 floppies that I had to shove, one by one, into my non-existent Floppy Drive (Remember the good old days?)


:D I still use floppy disks! I am a writer, and large portions of text fits just nicely on a floppy. (No, I am not ashamed :rotfl:)

On topic:

Looking foreward to GWX and countless hours of hunting.

Agh ... waiting just plain sucks, it always does.

[Potoroo]

Again, thanks for peeing all over a thread that was meant to be positive. If you are such an intellectual and professional, you would have identified the logical requirement to handle things further in private.
I considered it but since I had no confidence you'd have been any more reasonable in private I decided it would be a waste of time.
Take your hoity toity elitist attitude and stick it in yer.... favorite orifice.
Anyone can talk a thing to death. So feel free. I'm done with this thread and with you. After 12 hours of real drama... I have no more time for yours. The floor is now COMPLETELY yours to spout whatever crap you like.
The person that brought all the trouble to this thread was Potoroo with his elitest attuide
When the person who wrote the installer vindicates every single thing I said I'm somehow to blame? I don't think so.

I'm not elitist. I'm a professional programmer and this was a programming issue. What really seems to be sticking in some people's craws is that I was right and that I refused to be bullied. The people who were so adamantly wrong are the ones who "peed" on this thread.

I've read about the number of people who no longer participate in these forums because they've turned nasty and vicious, and now I see what they mean.

[Onkel Neal]

Again, thanks for peeing all over a thread that was meant to be positive. If you are such an intellectual and professional, you would have identified the logical requirement to handle things further in private.
I considered it but since I had no confidence you'd have been any more reasonable in private I decided it would be a waste of time.
Take your hoity toity elitist attitude and stick it in yer.... favorite orifice.
Anyone can talk a thing to death. So feel free. I'm done with this thread and with you. After 12 hours of real drama... I have no more time for yours. The floor is now COMPLETELY yours to spout whatever crap you like.
The person that brought all the trouble to this thread was Potoroo with his elitest attuide
When the person who wrote the installer vindicates every single thing I said I'm somehow to blame? I don't think so.

I'm not elitist. I'm a professional programmer and this was a programming issue. What really seems to be sticking in some people's craws is that I was right and that I refused to be bullied. The people who were so adamantly wrong are the ones who "peed" on this thread.

I've read about the number of people who no longer participate in these forums because they've turned nasty and vicious, and now I see what they mean.

Potoroo,

are you posting in this thread to assist the GW team or tweak their nose? Because when people write in the spirit of cooperation, the forums don't get so nasty and vicious.

[raymond6751]

I am amazed at the ranting going on. The nastiness is extended when it is replied to with more.

Folks...when someone GIVES you something for FREE and you bitch about it LOUDLY in public...

It doesn't make anyone comfortable and it makes the giver sorry he/she ever was generous with their time in the first place.

How many modders, reading through this thread, would want to continue ?:roll:

[Potoroo]

Potoroo,
are you posting in this thread to assist the GW team or tweak their nose? Because when people write in the spirit of cooperation, the forums don't get so nasty and vicious.
When I'm unfairly criticised or abused I'm entitled to respond. I also tend to respond badly to people trying to bully me. Call it a character flaw if you want but that's the way I am. I don't pretend to be a saint.

I was trained in a paradigm called "egoless programming". I don't know if that term is still used but it should be. In that paradigm I take it for granted I will make mistakes and I don't take it personally when they're pointed out. I certainly don't go off in a huff to sulk when my critic turns out to be right. I simply don't get the concept of attacking the messenger, yet that's what's happening to me even now when I've been completely vindicated.

I admit I responded to that nasty piece of work, Cdre_Gibs, very late last night my time with a couple of bourbons under the belt, which was a mistake. But I would also suggest I've responded more moderately to the nastiness hurled my way than had I chosen to respond in kind.
Folks...when someone GIVES you something for FREE and you bitch about it LOUDLY in public...
When someone says they're going to give you something for free and the way they describe it it's going to cause problems for you and others you should feel obliged to "bitch". Why on earth should you be silent about someone putting a lot of time and effort into doing something badly?

[P_Funk]

Potoroo this thing of saying that you are a professional programmer and therefore it lets you be superior and not respectful of the old salts on the forums who have earned the respect and admiration of the members here is a matter of arrogance. That you were proven correct doesn't excuse the superiority with which you went about expressing yourself. You obviously don't care much for the opinions of others here since you make no polite concessions towards peaceful disagreement. You seem to think that since you have a professional background whenever someone disagrees with your "professional opinion" they must be mad and toatlly wrong. Kpt. Lehmann said he had made his decision and yet you persisted. You declared him to be unreasonable at one point and that can only be a conclusion you drew based on his diagreement with you.

Really this superiority is the kind of thing that drove me away from other message boards and killed many that were good. Here you are no one and can only be known by how you behave. Nothing is worse for a message board than to have an expert with no respect for his peer lest they totally submit to his logic.

I disagreed with Kpt. Lehmann on Page 2 but now I'm totally on his side. Your contempt for those who are valued members of this community leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

[Bungo_Pete]

Will it be more difficult for escots to see at night?,will cargo ships lose thier spot lights,and maybe just shoot flares?:yep:

[U-snafu]

Will it be more difficult for escots to see at night?,will cargo ships lose thier spot lights,and maybe just shoot flares?:yep:

Bravo--back on track with the title of the thread "GWX News":up: :up:


Ps: Potoroo-please don't respond in this thread anymore--be the elder proffessional you claim to be and adrress it private or start your own thread.

Well GWX--anymore news??

[Ducimus]

Sometimes you'll find yourself in an argument with someone on a forum, thats rather unique.

Unique in that the other person in the argument will not stop until they've proven right (at least in his or her mind). Sometimes still they'll take it further to make sure everyone knows it in a sort of "HA ha see?! I told you so!" type of thing. My tin foil hat theory is that people arguing like this, its like some need to establish dominance in some percieved pecking order, or a bid to gain some sort of perceived respect or acknowledgement of some sort of percived superiority to distinguish themselves.

Other people will continue to argue, and will not stop, ever, until they get the last word in. period. Getting the last word in, is like some sort of proxy victory of an arugment.

Sit back and just watch sometime, its like a study in human behavior.

[The Munster]

Sometimes you'll find yourself in an argument with someone on a forum, thats rather unique.

Unique in that the other person in the argument will not stop until they've proven right (at least in his or her mind). Sometimes still they'll take it further to make sure everyone knows it in a sort of "HA ha see?! I told you so!" type of thing. My tin foil hat theory is that people arguing like this, its like some need to establish dominance in some percieved pecking order, or a bid to gain some sort of perceived respect or acknowledgement of some sort of percived superiority to distinguish themselves.

Other people will continue to argue, and will not stop, ever, until they get the last word in. period. Getting the last word in, is like some sort of proxy victory of an arugment.

Sit back and just watch sometime, its like a study in human behavior.

No, I think it's just attention seeking and as for this "professional" thing .. I'm a professional toilet cleaner so what does that mean ?!

[Ducimus]

Will it be more difficult for escots to see at night?,will cargo ships lose thier spot lights,and maybe just shoot flares?:yep:

Bravo--back on track with the title of the thread "GWX News":up: :up:


First let me state that i am NOT a GWX dev. Well, not currently at least, i worked on it a little bit about a month or two ago before RL drew me away. Secondly i know some things about it, but i cannot dilvuge what (little) i know, or at least, im not sure what i can or cannot say about GWX.

I am confident however in saying that the state of the sea will make a large impact in visibilty, (and sensors too i beleive). I also think at some point the Kpt announced they've fixed the visual sensor (your watchcrew) being a bit too good at night.

[HunterICX]

Sometimes you'll find yourself in an argument with someone on a forum, thats rather unique.

Unique in that the other person in the argument will not stop until they've proven right (at least in his or her mind). Sometimes still they'll take it further to make sure everyone knows it in a sort of "HA ha see?! I told you so!" type of thing. My tin foil hat theory is that people arguing like this, its like some need to establish dominance in some percieved pecking order, or a bid to gain some sort of perceived respect or acknowledgement of some sort of percived superiority to distinguish themselves.

Other people will continue to argue, and will not stop, ever, until they get the last word in. period. Getting the last word in, is like some sort of proxy victory of an arugment.

Sit back and just watch sometime, its like a study in human behavior.

No, I think it's just attention seeking and as for this "professional" thing .. I'm a professional toilet cleaner so what does that mean ?!

That means , after a hard day cleaning ur full of sh!t :rotfl:


OnTopic: Well...I cant wait for GWX to come out to try it out and see if it helps me further enjoying the battles at sea.
still In GW I,m still surprised. Light Cruisers / Cariers appearing in large convoys wow...never expected that to happen really.

[The Munster]

:rotfl:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

... and Potoroo is typing up yet another craptacular post.

[Potoroo]

... and Potoroo is typing up yet another craptacular post.
And to think I've been accused of displaying contempt.

[Ducimus]

Light Cruisers / Cariers appearing in large convoys wow...never expected that to happen really.

Acutally i think it did to some degree. I remembe reading somewhere, early war, the british tried to imbed a warship of some sort as an inner defense for the convoys against surfaced uboats.

Carriers i know DID happen. If they werent attached the the convoy directly, they were part of a group that followed the convoy. This sort of helped fill the mid atlantic airgap and was a serioues blow to uboats, denying the use of wolfpack tactics.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

... and Potoroo is typing up yet another craptacular post.
And to think I've been accused of displaying contempt.

Trolls (like you) earn my contempt as you have.

[HunterICX]

Light Cruisers / Cariers appearing in large convoys wow...never expected that to happen really.

Acutally i think it did to some degree. I remembe reading somewhere, early war, the british tried to imbed a warship of some sort as an inner defense for the convoys against surfaced uboats.

Carriers i know DID happen. If they werent attached the the convoy directly, they were part of a group that followed the convoy. This sort of helped fill the mid atlantic airgap and was a serioues blow to uboats, denying the use of wolfpack tactics.

I see, thx for the feedback on that one because I was scratching my head when I heard their sound through the Hydrophone..''Could it really be?'' and when I popped up the scope I saw it.

I have so far detected : 1 X Dido Light Cruiser, 3x Southampton Cruisers and 1x Carier. its also a challenge for me. the Cruiser/Carier is the 1st one to be shot at :rock: really love getting my way into the convoy just to shoot that big target:up:

[Potoroo]

... and Potoroo is typing up yet another craptacular post.
And to think I've been accused of displaying contempt.

Trolls (like you) earn my contempt as you have.
If you hadn't misinformed us in the first place there would never have been an argument. I find your subsequent displays of bile almost amusing.

[WilhelmSchulz.]

I am confident however in saying that the state of the sea will make a large impact in visibilty, (and sensors too i beleive). I also think at some point the Kpt announced they've fixed the visual sensor (your watchcrew) being a bit too good at night.
I disagrie. When I get a contact at night I turn my binoculars to the baring noted and I can just make out the shadow(ship) :hmm:

[P_Funk]

... and Potoroo is typing up yet another craptacular post. And to think I've been accused of displaying contempt.
Trolls (like you) earn my contempt as you have. If you hadn't misinformed us in the first place there would never have been an argument. I find your subsequent displays of bile almost amusing.

Kpt.'s misinformation is not the cause of the alleged argument. It is your contempt for him and your insatiable need to be proven correct that leads to uncivil words being thrown about. Being correct does not give you carte blanche to express your correctness. Being superior and having contempt is no way to earn the respect of those who you are obviously putting this display on for.

[Potoroo]

Kpt.'s misinformation is not the cause of the alleged argument.
Oh, for heaven's sake. There's nothing the least "alleged" about the argument. It's a fact and his misinformation was precisely the cause of it. An accurate description of the way the installer functioned would have lead to an immediate collective sigh of relief and we'd all have moved on.
It is your contempt for him and your insatiable need to be proven correct that leads to uncivil words being thrown about.
Pointing out that someone has made or is making an error is not contempt. Persisting in the face of intransigence and abuse is not contempt. Refusing to allow oneself to be bullied is not contempt.

The contempt has been thrown my way, not the other way around.

I didn't persist out of some "insatiable need to be proven correct". I persisted because what we were told about the installer meant it was going to cause problems and those problems were avoidable.

[P_Funk]

This is pointless. Ducimus was right.

[Ducimus]

I disagrie. When I get a contact at night I turn my binoculars to the baring noted and I can just make out the shadow(ship) :hmm:

I was referring to GWX.

edit: Good greif, i hate my new avatar.

[Potoroo]

Oh, I'd be happy to move on but some things are just so ridiculous they need to be refuted.

[Ducimus]

http://www.lastwordon.com/images/LWOE-Front-Cover-layout200.jpg

[WilhelmSchulz.]

I disagrie. When I get a contact at night I turn my binoculars to the baring noted and I can just make out the shadow(ship) :hmm:

I was referring to GWX.

edit: Good greif, i hate my new avatar.
And I was saying that the visability isint a problem.

Why do you hate you new avatar? At least your not cross dresed. :rotfl:

[Potoroo]

http://www.lastwordon.com/images/LWOE-Front-Cover-layout200.jpg
Untrue and unfair. Although I see your trap I'll nevertheless point out that in threads like this where one person is responding to many it creates the illusion that that person is somehow intent on endless debate. But it is an illusion. I am having not one but many conversations in this thread, and where some stop naturally others may continue. That's the nature of public forums.

[d@rk51d3]

ZZZZzzzzzzz ZZZZzzzzzz ZZZZzzzzzz.........:dead:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Oh, I'd be happy to move on but some things are just so ridiculous they need to be refuted.

More trolling and basically an admission of the same.

Would someone loan me a violin?

[Onkel Neal]

I find your subsequent displays of bile almost amusing.

That's pretty close to an admission of trolling. :nope:

This thread will return to the topic now, GWX news.

[Ducimus]

Would someone loan me a violin?

http://www.noblepagan.com/forum/images/smilies/musicboohoo.gif

edit:
sorry, couldnt resit, i like the emotican though. should be added to the forum maybe . :lol:

[Potoroo]

I find your subsequent displays of bile almost amusing.

That's pretty close to an admission of trolling. :nope:
I did not and do not troll.

[stabiz]

Is it possible to ask how you guys are going to rev up the close-to-launch-time? Screenshots and such?

Come on, tease us. :D

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Is it possible to ask how you guys are going to rev up the close-to-launch-time? Screenshots and such?

Come on, tease us. :D

We have a plan for everything. :arrgh!: (I think :rotfl: )

However, since this thread has turned sharply left... Subsequent updates will be on a new thread at some point.

[Ducimus]

Is it possible to ask how you guys are going to rev up the close-to-launch-time? Screenshots and such?

Come on, tease us. :D

I still have some screenshots of test i was doing, but the Kapt skinned me alive for posting em. Old news by now, maybe he'll let me post them again ;)

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Crap... There's only six Whoppers left in my box... those things are really good.:yep:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Whoops... no more Whoppers. Mmmm good.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Every GWX download will come with a complimentary box of Whoppers. :arrgh!:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Said Whoppers will appear in your lap when you double click the "you-know-what."

[U-snafu]

You've been up too long:rotfl:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

You've been up too long:rotfl:

Heck... I'm just getting started. U-Snafu... I have a PM for you shortly.

[DarkFolle]

After a month i still simply take a beer and enjoy all ur comments..waiting that ********** mod! U Rock Guys:rock:

[Ducimus]

Hes starting to sound like me when ive been hitting the bottle of Capt Morgan i keep atop my fridge :lol:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Hes starting to sound like me when ive been hitting the bottle of Capt Morgan i keep atop my fridge :lol:

Hey! Good idea... I've got a dusty bottle of Jameson Irish Whiskey here...

One shot sounds good as I settle into my work. (No I am only going to have one shot. I have too much too do ... and I almost never drink anyway.)

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Zowie!

Das ist sehr gut!:arrgh!:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Well, I'm off to make sure all of the contacts for the new ships are grey.

Cheers all.

Thanks for the use of your violin Ducimus! :arrgh!:

[JScones]

It's already been explained to you why it's not going to meet your aims but is going to unnecessarily inconvenience some of your users. Since it's entirely possible for you to both meet your aims and satisfy all your users it can't be anything but bad PR.
I repeat: no-one is complaining about the need for it to be installed over clean 1.4b. No-one is complaining about the requirement for it to be installed intact. The only issue is where it gets installed. You have not provided the slightest reasonable justification to force it to only install over the default path.
OK, there appears to be a simple misunderstanding which I will now clarify for all.
The auto-installer DOES NOT automatically install into any path. Yuck. My professional peers would ostracise me. Actually, I would ostracise myself.
Thank you for this clarification. It seems we were indeed misinformed, hence the confusion. As one of your professional peers I approve.
However, it will only CONTINUE the installation process if the path YOU HAVE SELECTED is verified as a clean, unmodded SH3 patched to v1.4b.
This accords with something I said right at the beginning: if the 1.4b verification process is truly effective then the path is irrelevant.

I'm pleased with everything you've said. The installation procedure you describe follows standard practices and meets the aim of simplifying the installation without unnecessarily inconveniencing some users at the expense of others. Furthermore, and here I confess to a selfish interest, it won't inconvenience or confuse users of MultiSH3 which means I don't expect to be bombarded with emails or PMs requesting assistance.
If I may be blunt - from one professional peer to another - I don't "approve" of your behaviour in this thread. Professionals tend not to continually crow about being professional like it is some way to vindicate their comments, lest they use it to trounce on others.

In my field such people tend to find themselves spending a lot of time working on "special projects".

If you wanted a "professional" conversation, you could have either a) simply waited for my return (BBW first commented on page 2 that I was out of town) where all things would have been put right instead of arguing for over four pages or b) PMed or emailed me direct.

As you chose to continue the argument in public with people that you dismissed as non-professionals, I cannot help but think that your motives were not professional at all.

Now, on a productive note...
One quick question: does the 1.4b verifier require the installation to be absolutely clean or does it ignore the presence of things like jsgme.exe or multish3.exe in the game's default folder? If you want to talk about this in detail via email then that's fine with me.
The installer will happily accept the presence of tools like JSGME, SH3Weather, MultiSH3 etc etc. Even if you released a new version of MultiSH3 the day of GWX release, the installer will be smart enough to recognise it. It will also recognise and accept changes to "inconsequential" game files like "FileManager.dll" or even "sh3.exe".

Its interest is solely in the files that make up the "game" of SH3, ie predominantly the files under the data folder. And even then it is intuitive enough to know whether a particular file change will affect the running of GWX or not.

Now, whilst I have no problem answering questions from users, I really do not feel the need to continue to justify my/Kpt's decision making on the installer simply for the sake of your gratification or indulgence. Please, move on to your next beef...

[The Munster]

Hes starting to sound like me when ive been hitting the bottle of Capt Morgan i keep atop my fridge :lol:

Hey! Good idea... I've got a dusty bottle of Jameson Irish Whiskey here...

One shot sounds good as I settle into my work. (No I am only going to have one shot. I have too much too do ... and I almost never drink anyway.)

Irish ? :nope:
What's wrong with Scotch !
If you don't throw that Irish 'stuff' overboard and get yourself a good malt, I'm not gonna download your new Mod so there ! [Smiley sucking a thumb icon here]

[Potoroo]

Now, whilst I have no problem answering questions from users, I really do not feel the need to continue to justify my/Kpt's decision making on the installer simply for the sake of your gratification or indulgence. Please, move on to your next beef...
Since you weren't asked to I don't understand your issue.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Hes starting to sound like me when ive been hitting the bottle of Capt Morgan i keep atop my fridge :lol:

Hey! Good idea... I've got a dusty bottle of Jameson Irish Whiskey here...

One shot sounds good as I settle into my work. (No I am only going to have one shot. I have too much too do ... and I almost never drink anyway.)

Irish ? :nope:
What's wrong with Scotch !
If you don't throw that Irish 'stuff' overboard and get yourself a good malt, I'm not gonna download your new Mod so there ! [Smiley sucking a thumb icon here]

Well my good man... Pass the Glenfiddich!! :arrgh!:

[VonHelsching]

In my field such people tend to find themselves spending a lot of time working on "special projects".



Nice reply, JS

People (usually directorial positions) that are in these "special project" positions - mainly in the public sector - we call them Kelvinator Managers, or "directors-in-the-fridge" :lol:

Oh, and forgot to say that, that was a view of a proffesional busines consultant, mainly for the public sector (if that makes any difference)

Von

[P_Funk]

If I may be blunt - from one professional peer to another - I don't "approve" of your behaviour in this thread. Professionals tend not to continually crow about being professional like it is some way to vindicate their comments, lest they use it to trounce on others.

In my field such people tend to find themselves spending a lot of time working on "special projects".

If you wanted a "professional" conversation, you could have either a) simply waited for my return (BBW first commented on page 2 that I was out of town) where all things would have been put right instead of arguing for over four pages or b) PMed or emailed me direct.

As you chose to continue the argument in public with people that you dismissed as non-professionals, I cannot help but think that your motives were not professional at all.


I love this man. He achieved more in a single post than we managed in... wow, 10 pages of bickering. I want to give JS a virtual hug! But we're guys so it's just gonna be a punch and grunt.;)

Here's to professionalism!:rotfl:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Excuse me for a second... I'm having a :p moment.

The aforementioned ultra-mature smiley is dedicated to all of the lovely people out there who DON'T love me.

We know you are watching. (waves hello) :p

We now continue with our regularly scheduled programming.

[Potoroo]

Neal asked me to let it go.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

:/\\x:

[The Noob]

Kpt. Lehmann, can all this modding make one go nuts? :D :rotfl::up:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Kpt. Lehmann, can all this modding make one go nuts? :D :rotfl::up:

Only if you weren't nuts to begin with. :arrgh!:

... but there are some people who come here having no nuts. Since they are nut-less they have nothing to worry about too.

I was already nuts.

[P_Funk]

In solumn and dignified response to your above mentioned "moment" Kp.t Lehmann...

I LOVE YOU!:lol::lol::lol:

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Even when I was temporarily on the Pontoroo bandwagon back on page 2.

Cheers Mate.:up:

And for Christ's Sake have a bloody drink!

[Kpt. Lehmann]

In solumn and dignified response to your above mentioned "moment" Kp.t Lehmann...

I LOVE YOU!:lol::lol::lol:

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Even when I was temporarily on the Pontoroo bandwagon back on page 2.

Cheers Mate.:up:

And for Christ's Sake have a bloody drink!

Why thank you!!! ... and a jolly old punch and grunt to you too.

You sir... are not nutless!!! :up: :up: :up: (No I didn't check... I am happy to assume as much.)

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Uh-Ohhhhh wait wait...

Wait for it... waaaaiitt for it...

AH!!! :p

There was another one!!! Another :p moment!!!

Did you see it?

Hmmmm... its gone now. What will we do.:roll:

(waves again)

[P_Funk]

I live in Vancouver on the West Coast and I'm pretty sure Texas is in my timezone. I think you're punch drunk on exhaustion Lehmann. ITS 5 AM! I NEED TO SLEEP!

Yet I keep typing.:hmm:

GIGGIDY GIGGIDY GIGGIDY GIGGIDY GIGGIDY GIGGIDY GIGGIDY GIGGIDY GIGGIDY GIGGIDY GIGGIDY GIGGIDY GIGGIDY GIGGIDY GIGGIDY GIGGIDY GIGGIDY GIGGIDY GIGGIDY GIGGIDY GIGGIDY GIGGIDY GIGGIDY GIGGIDY GIGGIDY GOO!

HEH! aaaaaaaaaaaallllllllllRIGHT!

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Nah...

After 7 years in the Army and 4 years in EMS... I can stay awake a looooonnnng time. :|\\

I'd offer you some Whoppers... but I'm fresh out.

Making tunafish sandwiches at the moment... want one?

[P_Funk]

BEAM ME UP JESUS!

er... I mean yes.

[mountainmanUK]

Making tunafish sandwiches at the moment... want one?

Got a spare one to lob across the Pond, Kapt????;)

Typing always makes me hungry!

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Making tunafish sandwiches at the moment... want one?

Got a spare one to lob across the Pond, Kapt????;)

Typing always makes me hungry!

Toss!!! Heads up... tomatoes and cheddar cheese on the way! :ping:

[fredbass]

Kpt? You a little punch drunk right now?? :hmm: :lol:

Well anyways, I sent you the PM. :up:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Oh yes... I work nights too... so this is like "afternoon" for me.:D

[mountainmanUK]

Toss!!! Heads up... tomatoes and cheddar cheese on the way! :ping:


Ahhhh! That's better!:rock:

Cheers!

Wanna nice pint of British beer?
(I could pour it down my modem:-? )

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Kpt? You a little punch drunk right now?? :hmm: :lol:

Well anyways, I sent you the PM. :up:

Thanks matey.:up: :up: :up:

Why does everyone think I'm punch drunk?

I'm only days away from having the completed beta... only detailing work remains!

... and to top it off ... this is the most fun I've had in ages.

[P_Funk]

Kpt? You a little punch drunk right now?? :hmm: :lol:

Well anyways, I sent you the PM. :up:
Thanks matey.:up: :up: :up:

Why does everyone think I'm punch drunk?

I'm only days away from having the completed beta... only detailing work remains!

... and to top it off ... this is the most fun I've had in ages. Agreed... well on the fun. I don't have a beta.:nope: I also doubt Ill be one of the lucky 30.

But oh well. Wheres my tuna?

EDIT. and like that *pfff* he's gone. [/Kevin Spacey from Usual Suspects]

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Toss!!! Heads up... tomatoes and cheddar cheese on the way! :ping:


Ahhhh! That's better!:rock:

Cheers!

Wanna nice pint of British beer?
(I could pour it down my modem:-? )

Well, ya might need that later if you prefer the GW mod. :sunny: (The modem that is.)

[Kpt. Lehmann]

P_Funk... you have a PM.:|\\

[mountainmanUK]

Well, ya might need that later if you prefer the GW mod. :sunny: (The modem that is.)

LOL:rotfl:

Let's just say that I expect my bandwidth will be "spoken for" in not too long a time away!!;)

(I have TWO items on my Christmas List: GWX and Iambecomelife's "Merchant Pack"):sunny:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Well, ya might need that later if you prefer the GW mod. :sunny: (The modem that is.)

LOL:rotfl:

Let's just say that I expect my bandwidth will be "spoken for" in not too long a time away!!;)

(I have TWO items on my Christmas List: GWX and Iambecomelife's "Merchant Pack"):sunny:
Gimme a second and I'll send you a PM too... soon as this sandwich is down the hatch.;)

[Kpt. Lehmann]

@ mountainmanUK....

You have PM :cool:

[mountainmanUK]

Thanks Kaptn!!:sunny:
Just read, and responded!!;)

(That sandwich was just FINE.....with beer!)

[Kpt. Lehmann]

EDIT. and like that *pfff* he's gone. [/Kevin Spacey from Usual Suspects]

"All wind and smoke..." LOL.

Ohhhh P_Funk... check yer dang PM box! :D

[Respenus]

I think we all know what the PM Box Warning given by Kpt. Lehmann means.

WE LOVE YOU OH MIGHTY GW (soon to be GWX) GOD!!! *the bowing smily* :p

[The Munster]

Making tunafish sandwiches at the moment... want one?

Got a spare one to lob across the Pond, Kapt????;)

Typing always makes me hungry!

Alcohol always makes me hungry :dead:

@Kpt. Lehmann..Tunafish and that Irish muck .. shame on you !

[kylania]

I think we all know what the PM Box Warning given by Kpt. Lehmann means.

Naked pictures of the GWX Dev Team in our inbox? :o

[Kpt. Lehmann]

I think we all know what the PM Box Warning given by Kpt. Lehmann means.

Naked pictures of the GWX Dev Team in our inbox? :o

You mean like this? Look familiar? :arrgh!: :arrgh!: :arrgh!: :arrgh!: :arrgh!:
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f117/KptLehmann/CatBell.jpg

[Kpt. Lehmann]

@Kpt. Lehmann..Tunafish and that Irish muck .. shame on you !

...and when I asked you to "pass the Glennfidich" where were ya matey? :arrgh!:

[Dowly]

I think we all know what the PM Box Warning given by Kpt. Lehmann means.
Naked pictures of the GWX Dev Team in our inbox? :o
You mean like this? Look familiar? :arrgh!: :arrgh!: :arrgh!: :arrgh!: :arrgh!:


http://finbytes.org/images//smilies/wub.gif

[Dowly]

So, Kpt. how many shots did you REALLY take from the wiskey bottle? :rotfl:

[Ducimus]

I think we all know what the PM Box Warning given by Kpt. Lehmann means.

Naked pictures of the GWX Dev Team in our inbox? :o

You mean like this? Look familiar? :arrgh!: :arrgh!: :arrgh!: :arrgh!: :arrgh!:
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f117/KptLehmann/CatBell.jpg


Oh, id like to shiver her timbers!

[Respenus]

I think we all know what the PM Box Warning given by Kpt. Lehmann means.
Naked pictures of the GWX Dev Team in our inbox? :o
You mean like this? Look familiar? :arrgh!: :arrgh!: :arrgh!: :arrgh!: :arrgh!:
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f117/KptLehmann/CatBell.jpg

Oh, id like to shiver her timbers!
JAG!!! :rock::rock::rock:

And BTW, I mean something else in my inbox. God save us from the naked GWX develepment team pics. I would have to replace my retinas.

[The Munster]

@Kpt. Lehmann..Tunafish and that Irish muck .. shame on you !

...and when I asked you to "pass the Glennfidich" where were ya matey? :arrgh!:

On a Sub in the Atlantic ;) !

[WilhelmSchulz.]

I'm only days away from having the completed beta... only detailing work remains!

... and to top it off ... this is the most fun I've had in ages.
Did anyon else here that? :doh:
ITS ALMOST HERE!!!!! :rock:

[Respenus]

I'm only days away from having the completed beta... only detailing work remains!

... and to top it off ... this is the most fun I've had in ages. Did anyon else here that? :doh:
ITS ALMOST HERE!!!!! :rock:

I know. I smell it in the air, taste it in the water and feel it in the ground. It's comming for us. Noone is safe!

[WilhelmSchulz.]

Yeet!!!

Save The Children!!! Wait Where Are The Children?!

[mr chris]

Yeet!!!

Save The Children!!! Wait Where Are The Children?!

HONEY I LOST THE KIDS:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[WilhelmSchulz.]

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Respenus]

Save them from what? :hmm:

[Ducimus]

Save them from what? :hmm:

http://rome.ro/images/doom/Doom.png

[mr chris]

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Respenus]

Save them from what? :hmm:
http://rome.ro/images/doom/Doom.png

WHICH ONE???

[Safe-Keeper]

How about this "In a few weeks it will be just a few weeks":up:Well, when my best friend comes back I won't need GWX, so there:p.

[Respenus]

How about this "In a few weeks it will be just a few weeks":up:Well, when my best friend comes back I won't need GWX, so there:p.

Who is your "best friend"?

[Safe-Keeper]

What, do you want her name, phone number and address:ping:?

[Sulikate]

I think we all know what the PM Box Warning given by Kpt. Lehmann means.
Naked pictures of the GWX Dev Team in our inbox? :o
You mean like this? Look familiar? :arrgh!: :arrgh!: :arrgh!: :arrgh!: :arrgh!:
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f117/KptLehmann/CatBell.jpg

Oh, id like to shiver her timbers!
JAG!!! :rock::rock::rock:

And BTW, I mean something else in my inbox. God save us from the naked GWX develepment team pics. I would have to replace my retinas.


Wow... I would like to have one in my boat.:arrgh!:

[Respenus]

What, do you want her name, phone number and address:ping:?

Why didn't you just say so?

[Ducimus]

I just have to add that .. yup, im getting impatient too. Im a bit tired of playing a game where i know how everything works. This is one of the biggest traps of modding your own game. YOU KNOW what to expect, where to expect it, and what you can get away with. With GWX, i dont really know too much on what to expect.


As an aside, i think there should be GWX gaming league similar to WaW. Not as much fun bragging about tonnage (something i never do :roll:) when everyones not on the same page :D

[Steeltrap]

I think people who bragg about tonnage actually have 'periscope envy' issues......

[Razman23]

I think we all know what the PM Box Warning given by Kpt. Lehmann means.
Naked pictures of the GWX Dev Team in our inbox? :o
You mean like this? Look familiar? :arrgh!: :arrgh!: :arrgh!: :arrgh!: :arrgh!:
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f117/KptLehmann/CatBell.jpg

Oh, id like to shiver her timbers!
JAG!!! :rock::rock::rock:

And BTW, I mean something else in my inbox. God save us from the naked GWX develepment team pics. I would have to replace my retinas.


Wow... I would like to have one in my boat.:arrgh!:

I would like to have both of them in my boat!:yep:

[P_Funk]

Oh boy oh boy! No it isn't the shrivelled glutes of the GW team that grace my PM inbox, oh no.

It's like SubSimmer Christmas in my CP!

:rock::rock::rock::rock::rock::rock:

I'm one happy matey.

I'll quote Comic Book guy. "Best PM EVER!"

[Ducimus]

Ok, im going to go to my corner, cry, and be jealous now, you lucky dog! :D

[kylania]

As an aside, i think there should be GWX gaming league similar to WaW. Not as much fun bragging about tonnage (something i never do :roll:) when everyones not on the same page :D

Actually GW1.1a is an approved mod for use with Wolves At War (click my sig for a link) and in fact there's a flotilla just waiting to start which will be GWX only (23rd flotilla in the Med).

[P_Funk]

Wow, Ducimus is jealous of me! :rock: I have only one thing to say about that...


http://www.iofferstores.com/img/1116140400/_p/fanboy1217/fanboy1217-Stormtrooper.gif

[Ducimus]

Actually GW1.1a is an approved mod for use with Wolves At War .

When did this change? Not meaning to stir up old horsecrap, but last i checked WaW was "powered by NYGM". I tried to join before the start of the current season but after a few days was told it was NYGM ONLY. Dropped it like a brick and never looked at it again.

[SubConscious]

Wow, Ducimus is jealous of me! :rock: I have only one thing to say about that...


Please feel free to share the joy! :D

BTW - Love the sig line. I'm assuming you've read the Wilfred Owen poem by the same name.

[Ducimus]

Wow, Ducimus is jealous of me! :rock: I have only one thing to say about that...


http://www.iofferstores.com/img/1116140400/_p/fanboy1217/fanboy1217-Stormtrooper.gif

OH fine, rub it in. Im gonna go in my corner and cry now:
http://crystal.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/crybaby.jpg

[P_Funk]

BTW - Love the sig line. I'm assuming you've read the Wilfred Owen poem by the same name.
But of course. Pretty much the only good thing to come out of WW1.

[Pants]

Leave Ducimus alone..I had it before you so meh :p

[HunterICX]

What!? nothing of GWX yet...
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/9070/1129923170jw9.jpg

ME WANTSS IT NOW!!! AAAAAAAAHHHH

[danlisa]

@ Ducimus

09-07-2006 WAW accepts GW mod users.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=97780&highlight=Wolves