British windfarms running out of wind

[Skybird]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...t-of-wind.html

There is nothing like risk-free energy-production... That is true for oil. For atomic energy. And for water and wind energy, too.

The big mistake in Europe: environmental issues shave been turned into an ideological crusade no longer based just on mere reason.

Germany has just decided to fully pull out of nuclear energy within the next ten years.

What nobody says today is: the Shroeder government before merkel also had ruled that. Then came the CDU to power and opened the deal again, fully trusting into nuclear power. Then came Fzuskushima, and what many people do not understand is that us Germans have suffered much much dearer from Fukushima than those Japanese: we immediatly felt so much Angst that now Merkel opportunistically U-turned again and set course for leaving nuclear energy behind.

To my knowledge, our neighbouing states in Europe maintain at least three nuclear powerplants in imminent vicinity to the border with Germany. Nevertheless, we will convince the whole world by setting an example! France especially will play ball soon!

[Jimbuna]

What are Germany proposing as an alternative power source?

Looking at the above article would lead me to conclude it's best nor to put all your eggs in one basket and a mix of power sources (including nuclear) is the safest bet.

[Torplexed]

Sounds like a job for Gordon Brown. I'm sure he's a big enough windbag to get the turbines turning again. Problem is the exorbitant amount you'll have to pay him.

[STEED]

Wind farms is another rotten stinking lie put about by...I've got stop there or I will let rip.

As for Germany's issue strikes me as pretty bloody silly.

[Gerald]

No good decision from Germany, what are they going to have fossil fuel, which is considerably worse, the last word will not be told yet ...

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

What are Germany proposing as an alternative power source?

The German pleb in the stzreets is perfectly happy with just making its Angst the sole argument.

However, try to decypher this:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=184112
I should give you a taste of what German dreamdancers are about. Dictatorship, brainwashing, streamlined freedom not exceedding the politically correct definitions.

Note that they claim to serve as an example that all the world will follow! That is the climax of arrogance. Am deutschen Wesen soll muß und wird die Welt genesen. Well. Germany so far has lost around 2.5 trillion Euros (=5 trilliuon D-Marks) due to the costs of the Euro implementation for Germany. Germany'S armed forces are thinning out even more, thereform underway now made many experts stating thast Germany is no longer capable to fullfill its military obligations in the NATO alliance. German foreign joke Westerwelle has ruined plenty of German prestige, and turned the German seat in the UN sec council into a hoax, leading Germany'S demand to get a constant seat ad absurdum.

But Germany constantly makes noise on what a shining example it would be to the world, if only thew world would care to watch.

We need to leave the fossil and nuclear agte behind, yes, I fully agree on it. But in their fear to confront the industry directly and head on (due to the close symbiotic relations between industrial and politicalo leaders), it has lead to absurd conception on how to acchieve it. The result is mislead, dictatorial thinking regulation.
Both on national and EU level, hectic, meaningless and costly actionism is the result. Ideology has won over reality and realpolitik.

And the financial question, what it all costs:

This will cost you big money: By 2030, it will be between 200 billion and one trillion U.S. dollars, per year, "inthe period from 2030 to 2050 actually much more."

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

What are Germany proposing as an alternative power source?

The German pleb in the streets is perfectly happy with just making its Angst the sole argument.

However, try to decypher this:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=184112
I should give you a taste of what German dreamdancers are about. Dictatorship, brainwashing, streamlined freedom not exceedding the politically correct definitions.

Note that they claim to serve as an example that all the world will follow! That is the climax of arrogance. Am deutschen Wesen soll muß und wird die Welt genesen. Well. Germany so far has lost around 2.5 trillion Euros (=5 trilliuon D-Marks) due to the costs of the Euro implementation for Germany. Germany'S armed forces are thinning out even more, thereform underway now made many experts stating thast Germany is no longer capable to fullfill its military obligations in the NATO alliance. German foreign joke Westerwelle has ruined plenty of German prestige, and turned the German seat in the UN sec council into a hoax, leading Germany'S demand to get a constant seat ad absurdum.

But Germany constantly makes noise on what a shining example it would be to the world, if only thew world would care to watch.

We need to leave the fossil and nuclear agte behind, yes, I fully agree on it. But in their fear to confront the industry directly and head on (due to the close symbiotic relations between industrial and politicalo leaders), it has lead to absurd conception on how to acchieve it. The result is mislead, dictatorial thinking regulation.
Both on national and EU level, hectic, meaningless and costly actionism is the result. Ideology has won over reality and realpolitik.

Currently, of Germany'S 17 nuclear powerplants, only four are running anymore. TZhere are no power shortages. But this is because it is summer: lots of sun, thermal activity and wind. If we will live without blackouts in winter, is another story. Also, our power imports have increased. Where is thr power coming from? Nuclear reactors in other countries whose security levels we claim to be inferior to German standards (a claim that I wonder if it really holds truth, the German reactors all are technically dated, to put it mildly).

[STEED]

Is Merkel under any pressure with up coming elections?

[Bakkels]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Currently, of Germany'S 17 nuclear powerplants, only four are running anymore. TZhere are no power shortages. But this is because it is summer: lots of sun, thermal activity and wind. If we will live without blackouts in winter, is another story. Also, our power imports have increased. Where is thr power coming from? Nuclear reactors in other countries whose security levels we claim to be inferior to German standards (a claim that I wonder if it really holds truth, the German reactors all are technically dated, to put it mildly).

Only four are running out of 17? Damn, I thought you guys had a lot more nuclear plants, and that a lot more were still operational. Is the one at Lingen still operational?

Btw, I see the German countryside riddled with (sometimes huge) windmills; how much of your power is supplied by those? I mean are they worth the cost for the amount of energy the provide?
You hear a lot of people talking about 'horizon pollution'; that they look ugly, but I disagree there. I find those huge windmills quite beautiful actually.

[papa_smurf]

Germany's choices:

• More windfarms, but means laying miles of power cables to the south
• Importing more energy from France (a major user of Nuclear)
• Coal

Either way its not going to be easy, you just can't change a countries energy supply, its going to take time and a lot of money.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Bakkels

Only four are running out of 17? Damn, I thought you guys had a lot more nuclear plants, and that a lot more were still operational. Is the one at Lingen still operational?

Lingen: I think not. 7 plants were switched off for security assessment after Fukushima, 6 others were switched off a week ago according to plan for regular maintenance.

Btw, I see the German countryside riddled with (sometimes huge) windmills; how much of your power is supplied by those? I mean are they worth the cost for the amount of energy the provide?
You hear a lot of people talking about 'horizon pollution'; that they look ugly, but I disagree there. I find those huge windmills quite beautiful actually.

Last month it was in the national news that in the past 20 years the share of renewable neergies had been increased by a factor of 4, pushing it to 17% currently. The first link I found when searching for this news, was this:

http://www.haz.de/Nachrichten/Wirtsc...barer-Energien

Renewables: 17%
Nuclear: 23%

In 2008, the newspaper Hannoversche Zeitung says, Austrria weas European leader in renewable energies, due to water power, giving it a share of 62%. Denmark pushed its share between 1990 ando 2008 from 2.8% to 26.8%

Nuclear energy in France has a share of 83.2%, Luthenia 76.4% and Slowakia 56.7%. In 12 EU nations, there was no nuclear power at all, amongst them Austria, Poland and Ireland.

The decisions announced by the German government today say the last German reactors will be switched off in 2021 and 2022. However, one or two reactors shall be maintaine dberyoind that as a reserve (as if it were possible to switch on a nuclear powerplant from one week to the other: in fact preparation for reactivating a nuclear powerplant takes several weeks and months). At least the 7 oldest powerplants which had been switched off after Fukushima, will not enter service again, and will remain switched off.

For 2010, the German DLR (Deutsche Luft und Raumfahrt) listed the energy source sin Germany like this:

Brown coal 24%
Nuclear 23%
Hard coal 18%
Renewable 16%
Gas 13%
Oil, "Pumpenspeicher", others: 6%

Germany plans huge windparks in the North Sea and the North of the country. Problem for that is the transportation from the North to the South, the powergrid will need massive investements for that, ranging in the high billions.

Some years ago, Germany was world ,market leader for prudcing solar panels. But this was only due to immense and massive subsidies via German taxes. The politicians slept (and sleep until today) when the Asians started to roll off the market, and increasded their production capacities, giving them the market ladership today - and as a nice side-effect, they earn billions of German tax subsidies that were intended to boost the German market and producers. We not only now buy Asian instead of German solar panels, but additionally pay Asian producers subsidies.

This will help a lot to make renewable energies more economic.

We will see this winter whether or not we will have blackouts, or not. For Germany, it would be something quite new.

Past week has seen increases in Germany'S buyings of foreign power, namely from France - which is nuclear.

[Bakkels]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Some years ago, Germany was world ,market leader for prudcing solar panels. But this was only due to immense and massive subsidies via German taxes. The politicians slept (and sleep until today) when the Asians started to roll off the market, and increasded their production capacities, giving them the market ladership today - and as a nice side-effect, they earn billions of German tax subsidies that were intended to boost the German market and producers. We not only now buy Asian instead of German solar panels, but additionally pay Asian producers subsidies.

So if only they had decided to see it through, Germany would have become market leader in a growing industry? Yeah, I can totally see why you wouldn't want that..
So what did Merkel do? Did she turn back the subsidies from the Schröder government or something?

Originally Posted by Skybird

This will help a lot to make renewable energies more economic.

We will see this winter whether or not we will have blackouts, or not. For Germany, it would be something quite new.

Past week has seen increases in Germany'S buyings of foreign power, namely from France - which is nuclear.

Well I don't think you'll experience any blackouts. Germany's government wouldn't be so stupid as to let that happen. The public will be outraged. My guess is they'll keep a close eye on it, and when a shortage is pending, they'll just bring in more energy from France or through Ukraine. They'll be very quiet about it of course...
And when the winter is over, they'll see "See? We managed it without any blackouts!"

The problem is indeed you can't just decide that from one day to the other, you stop using nuclear plants. You've got to have a plan. And you've gotta have governments that don't break down the (sometimes very few) good things a previous government strated.
Well I guess long term thinking and politics are almost always mutually exclusive...

[Jimbuna]

My main concern about getting energy resources from another country is the possibility of becoming a hostage to fortune some time in the future.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Bakkels

So if only they had decided to see it through, Germany would have become market leader in a growing industry? Yeah, I can totally see why you wouldn't want that..
So what did Merkel do? Did she turn back the subsidies from the Schröder government or something?

Germany was market leader, both in quality and quantity. It lost that role to the Asians - without reacting to that or adressing direct subsidies to manufacturers or solar panels. The only thing that was done so far is to carefully, slowly reduce subsidies to private households that invested into solar panels on theior roofs becasue they got subsidies for feeding this self_won electrocoty ionto the public powergrid (you are not allowed to use the won electricity fully yourself, for that would mean the electricty companies do not earn monbey by selling power back to you, you have to give sell power you have won, and then buy it back, also, the supplier cashes in a fee for the installations you have connected to their powergrif - clever, eh? That'S how to ruin healthy reason and mess up healthy market developement via subsidies). Political correctness ranks high in this, thus the German states wills to pay subsidies to rivals of our own panel producers - becasue the goal was to push the use of these panels. Their value in Germany with it's not really tropical climate and sun conditions, is debated.

Well I don't think you'll experience any blackouts. Germany's government wouldn't be so stupid as to let that happen. The public will be outraged. My guess is they'll keep a close eye on it, and when a shortage is pending, they'll just bring in more energy from France or through Ukraine. They'll be very quiet about it of course...

Then you do not know the Germans. We are romantics, highly irrational over idealistic claims, anjd the political correctness brigade is very very strong over here, read the other thread if you can make sense of the bot translation or understand German:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=184112

And when the winter is over, they'll see "See? We managed it without any blackouts!"

Could be, or not. We simply do not know. There was some stress, though no major one, on the supply during the past week, with so much power from the nuclear reactors all of a sudden beeing taken out (a first in Germany). They already needed to import some energy from above. But what will be in winter, with lesser winds (due to the lower temps), and less sun - we will need to see.

Ger,man government by Merkel is 100% opportunistic only, on a basis of managing its own grip to power on a day to day basis. It is the worst government we nhave had since WWII - and the most dangerous one.

Well I guess long term thinking and politics are almost always mutually exclusive...

Yes. It's a dilemma inbuilt in election-dependent representative democracy. And nwhen elites have formed up that no longer keep separate economic leaders from career politicians, and the whole system survived long enough to tailor itself and legislation to feed back on their powerinterests and to feedback on candidates obeying itsrules while filteirng out those wanting to not obey these rules of self-supporting for the elites, then you are in deep trouble with such a society. One thing is for certain only: votring for any party playing by the rules of this system, leads you nowhere. You just legitimate the system and its profiteers - no matter which party you elect.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

My main concern about getting energy resources from another country is the possibility of becoming a hostage to fortune some time in the future.

France does not trust its eyes over what we do in Germany, but of course they say thanks and will make best use of the German folding over this field of hightech competence. And I doubt they will shut down their own many reactors soon, they totally depend on nuclear energy. And so Germany will acchieve the exacpt opposite of what the pleb in the streets is yelling for: we may be a clean tiny spot in the heart of europe: with masny dozens of nuclear powerplants surrounding us from almost all sides, some of them sitting right on our shared borders. And France has card blanche to push through its own nuclear technology on the market, with the biggest rival gone.

Maybe they do not trust their eyes, but they are celebrating today, believe me.

Holwever, protesters are rioght on one thing: we do not have a clue how to store radiating waste safely for many thousands of years. This is the biggest problem with nuclear energy I see.