SC 1.08 AI takes super natural snapshot!

MarkShot · 09-29-07, 04:34 AM

SC 1.08 (no mods)

I am playing "Command Challenge". This is one of the stock scenarios. One of the aspect of scenario design which it features is the creation of dynamic groups trigger on kill goals where the instantiated units appear within lethal range.

Okay, I am pretty much expecting that, but here is the aspect which I don't get.

I am about 15 seconds from impact of two of my fish on a surface ship. I have already prepared to go ultra-quiet. So, I closed the tube doors leaving the fish to run on auto pilot and my speed has dropped to 2KTS.

The fish detonate on target. The water is awash with the noise of an explosion. (The rest follows from watching the replay.) Another Seawolf is instantiated to my North West upon demise of the surface ship [as expected]. However, in a noisy sea with me running at 2kts within 10 seconds of instantiation, it launches a perfectly aimed fish at my bearing. There is perhaps 3nm between us. Granted we are close, but to detect, identify, and range a target in 10 seconds?

How does the AI do that? Is there a cheat in the standard 1.08 doctrine files? Is the AI using link data and some other platform has handed off me as a contact? (However, it should be noted that the only people who might have known about me are dead and there is nothing close to me. The nearest surface ship is probably about 10nm away.)

I supose it could be done at 6,000yds with the AI going active. However, the first ping which I heard was at 20khz of a fish going active.

So, any ideas how the AI performs this super natural snapshot? I am curious if it is this way in SCXIIC and DW/LWAMI too?

Thanks.

PS: I hate it when the AI cheats!!! What good is skill on my part when an omniscient line of doctrine code says GAME OVER without even working to acquire me!

Molon Labe · 09-29-07, 09:59 AM

This is purely speculative, but it looks like there are two things going on here.

First, the explosion-washout problem doesn't seem to apply to AI vessels.

Second, based on what I can remember about what LW has said about AIs classifying and engaging contacts in DW, classification is a very on-off issue. There isn't any in between from "no idea" to "posID," and there probably isn't a "progress bar" to go from one to the other. In a normal scenario, the amount of time needed to get ID is probably abstracted from range. The contact will be detected at one range, and be classified (and engaged) some time later--after it gets closer. Because your opponent spawned so close, this all happened instantaneously.

MarkShot · 09-29-07, 01:03 PM

You are most likely correct. Often the enemy in many games is simply an abstraction of probabilities and such as opposed to simulated events, queues, and physics.

In fact, in some game designs, the abstraction isn't even hidden. For example, in Sid Meier's Railroad Tycoon Deluxe (old DOS game), competitor railroads just appear as track networks. You never really see stations and trains running on them. They are simply calculations of potential revenue based on network connectivity with bonus and malus factors applied for the AI president and various period factors.

Good insight there!

09-29-07, 04:34 AM	#1
MarkShot Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,134 Downloads: 93 Uploads: 0	SC 1.08 AI takes super natural snapshot! SC 1.08 (no mods) I am playing "Command Challenge". This is one of the stock scenarios. One of the aspect of scenario design which it features is the creation of dynamic groups trigger on kill goals where the instantiated units appear within lethal range. Okay, I am pretty much expecting that, but here is the aspect which I don't get. I am about 15 seconds from impact of two of my fish on a surface ship. I have already prepared to go ultra-quiet. So, I closed the tube doors leaving the fish to run on auto pilot and my speed has dropped to 2KTS. The fish detonate on target. The water is awash with the noise of an explosion. (The rest follows from watching the replay.) Another Seawolf is instantiated to my North West upon demise of the surface ship [as expected]. However, in a noisy sea with me running at 2kts within 10 seconds of instantiation, it launches a perfectly aimed fish at my bearing. There is perhaps 3nm between us. Granted we are close, but to detect, identify, and range a target in 10 seconds? How does the AI do that? Is there a cheat in the standard 1.08 doctrine files? Is the AI using link data and some other platform has handed off me as a contact? (However, it should be noted that the only people who might have known about me are dead and there is nothing close to me. The nearest surface ship is probably about 10nm away.) I supose it could be done at 6,000yds with the AI going active. However, the first ping which I heard was at 20khz of a fish going active. So, any ideas how the AI performs this super natural snapshot? I am curious if it is this way in SCXIIC and DW/LWAMI too? Thanks. PS: I hate it when the AI cheats!!! What good is skill on my part when an omniscient line of doctrine code says GAME OVER without even working to acquire me! __________________ War games, not wars! --- Only a small few profit from war (that should not stand)!

09-29-07, 09:59 AM	#2
Molon Labe Silent Hunter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Along the Watchtower Posts: 3,810 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 5	This is purely speculative, but it looks like there are two things going on here. First, the explosion-washout problem doesn't seem to apply to AI vessels. Second, based on what I can remember about what LW has said about AIs classifying and engaging contacts in DW, classification is a very on-off issue. There isn't any in between from "no idea" to "posID," and there probably isn't a "progress bar" to go from one to the other. In a normal scenario, the amount of time needed to get ID is probably abstracted from range. The contact will be detected at one range, and be classified (and engaged) some time later--after it gets closer. Because your opponent spawned so close, this all happened instantaneously. __________________

09-29-07, 01:03 PM	#3
MarkShot Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,134 Downloads: 93 Uploads: 0	You are most likely correct. Often the enemy in many games is simply an abstraction of probabilities and such as opposed to simulated events, queues, and physics. In fact, in some game designs, the abstraction isn't even hidden. For example, in Sid Meier's Railroad Tycoon Deluxe (old DOS game), competitor railroads just appear as track networks. You never really see stations and trains running on them. They are simply calculations of potential revenue based on network connectivity with bonus and malus factors applied for the AI president and various period factors. Good insight there! __________________ War games, not wars! --- Only a small few profit from war (that should not stand)!