Definitive torpedo depth/exploder status in 1.3

[nomad_delta]

As I promised in my previous thread concerning torpedo depth and exploder issues as of the last patch, now that 1.3 is out I'm back at work trying to figure out where things stand. I've spent the better part of the day running hundreds of torpedo depth and exploder tests, carefully examining and tweaking the torpedo_us.sim file, and running more tests...

Here's a link to the previous thread in case you hadn't seen it already:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...ght=definitive

Now, on to what I've found for patch 1.3:

I'm afraid it's bad news. After hours of testing, I am convinced that the contact/influence exploder system is still broken as of patch 1.3. Or, to be more specific: the contact/influence dial is broken.

My testing and data from the last thread was accurate, but my previous conclusion was wrong. I previously concluded that since the maximum depth at which a torpedo would hit a given target was the same regardless of whether "Contact" or "Contact/Influence" exploders were selected, the magnetic detonators must not be working properly. I have now determined that to be incorrect. As Tycho102 pointed out in the previous thread, the magnetic detonators are in fact working properly, as evidenced by his 'torpedo cheats' mod that allows for increasing the magnetic detonation range.

What is not working properly, however, is the ability to turn off the magnetic detonators! Even when the dial is set to "Contact", torpedos still detonate via magnetic influence without ever touching the target. I was able to tweak the "magnetic detonation range" value in the "torpedos_us.sim" file in the same way that Tycho102 did for his torpedo cheats mod to completely verify this. With the "magnetic detonation range" value set unusually high -- to 4 meters rather than the default of 2, for example -- "Contact" torpedos would detonate even when set to run an additional 15 feet below the target, just like the "Contact/Influence" torpedos.

What's interesting is that the torpedos are not permanently 'stuck' on magnetic detonations only. There is a date range specified in the "torpedoes_us.sim" file that disables magnetic detonators on the Mark14 torpedo entirely as of exactly 06/01/1943. (This isn't properly represented in the currently available torpedoes_us.sim 'tweak' file; I've been using a hex editor to view and modify the file directly.) As a test, I modified the torpedo attack training mission to take place on 10/01/1944 instead of the default 01/01/1943 -- the magnetic exploders indeed stopped working entirely (regardless of the dial position) and I consistently got contact explosions at values matching the drafts of the ships I was firing at.

I've spent hours trying various ways of modifying the "torpedo_us.sim" file, and also modifying the reference to the exploder dial in the "dials.cfg" file, but to no avail. No matter what values I use, the game absolutely ignores the status of the torpedo exploder switch. I can reliably turn magnetic exploders either completely on, or completely off (by modifying torpedo_us.sim), and they do work -- but there's no way to change the exploder type from within the game.

So that's the summary of what I've found out so far:

You're stuck with magnetic exploders whether you want them or not prior to 06/01/1943.

After 06/01/1943, your magnetic exploders go away and you can't turn them back on again no matter what you do.

I've been staring at hex editors for so long my eyes are starting to go buggy on me, so I'm going to take a break for a bit. I'd be really interested to hear what everyone else thinks about this. For my part I'm kinda disappointed that this didn't get fixed in 1.3, and more so that it doesn't look like this is something we could fix with a mod. At least not in any way I've been able to come up with... anyone got any ideas?

nomad_delta

PS: All testing was performed on a completely clean install from DVD with only patch 1.3 applied and no mods, of course. I also temporarily modified the % chance of "depth problems" occuring to 0% to prevent any randomness.

[Bando]

Quite some testing....
I wondered why my torps would premature when set at contact. I guess you just answered that question.
I always fire contact shots. I figured it must yield better results than magnetic shots, but the in the end, the results were not that good at all.

I sure hope we'll be able to differentiate one way or another, so as to work those torpedoes as intended and as in real life.

Reg
Bando

[PepsiCan]

Hi

I'm nearing the end of the book I am reading, "Silent Victory", so I thought I'd add some real life vs game data to this debate.

Initially, the magnetic exploders were seen by the US Navy as a secret weapon that would give the US a significant advantage. On top of that, there was a big shortage of torpedoes. Hence, US skippers were ordered to use the magnetic exploders because that way they could sink ships with fewer torpedoes. Skippers have been known to forge their reports to hide that they turned off the magnetic exploders and/or tampered with the depth settings on the torpedos.

Then, after much dispute between top skippers and their commanders, Lockwood & Christie, Lockwood ordered a test at the start of 1943. During the test he found out that the magnetic exploder was unreliable (His team still didn't find out about the failing contact exploders. That was for another test a few months later). He then ordered all boats under his command to no longer use the magnetic exploder. Christie, under orders of Nimitz, had to follow a couple of months later.

So,
- Prior to mid-1943, skippers were under orders to use magnetic exploders
- After mid-1943 (this happened later for the Brisbane and Fremantle boats than for the Pearl boats), skippers were ordered to turn the magnetic exploders off
- The magnetic exploder issue in the torpedoes was *never* fixed!

Real life vs simulation
- It seems we have a choice button that does not work. That in itself is fine, as in reality there was not really a choice either. Skippers were under orders. Disobaying these could lead to retirement. So, if you support the view that SH4 is a simulation, the button should be removed and/or turned into an indicator.
- However, why offer the choice but then not implement it?
- A single cut off date for switching from magnetic to contact does not work as Christie only allowed them to be switched off several months after Lockwood had ordered so (I don't recall the exact dates). Boats on the exchange program between the US and Australia would sail without magnetic exploders when going from Pearl to Australia and with magnetic exploders enabled when going from Australia to Pearl.

Questions
- How reliable are the magnetic exploders in the game? Do they fail often or is it a (near) 100% hit rate?

And thanks for the great research on this so far Nomad_delta!

[kv29]

Interesting. I can confirm nomad findings, and yes, I also had prematures (until 1943 or something) even if set to contact only.

Pepsi is right too. I´ve read Submarine! (E. Beach), mk14 were doomed for the first years of war. Skippers were usually (and sadly) blamed for "missing" their targets (bad solution, incorrect settings, and so on...).Even the japanese high command knew it .

Some captains, as Mush Morton, ordered the supply and tech guys to double check every torp before loading them to his sub, after apparently "missing" around 10 of 14 shots.

So, as other skippers did, Im sticking to old but reliables mk10s for now.

[Jungman]

1) One idea to get around this, is to take the Mark 18 torpedo and turn it into a 'Contact Only' Mark 14. As you said, the data for the premature explosion due to magnetic can be nullified. You may want to reduce the MaxEF some due to the fact a pure contact does less damage than a true under the keel exploding Magnetic which is not really modelled in the game anyway. Or give the magnetics a larger explosion radius, which is what it is doing, more damage to the ship.

So you would haver two types of mark 14, one contact only and more reliable but less damage per se; and the more unreliable magnetic but has a potential to do much more damage.

I do not know how to add a new torpedo, but the game AI does not care about the Mark 18 electric, since the AI does not 'see the bubble wake' and steer clear, or DD homing in on your position.

I real life, mark 18 was used especially during the day to shoot a ship being more stealthy. But in game the AI does not care. So make a mod with Contact Mark 14 , and Magnetic Mark 14.

just an idea. I really hoped it would have been fixed in 1.3

2) Last easy idea is to make the Mark 23 available from the get go start of war and pretend it is a Mark 14 contact only, which it is BTY and more reliable. Mark 23 is contact only and no (less) chance to premature detenation. Make them cost renown since you are disobeying orders by disable the magnetic exploder which some captains did despite what SubPak ordered. Reflects your disobaying orders.

How reliable are the magnetic exploders in the game? Do they fail often or is it a (near) 100% hit rate?

In my test, if the magnetic made it to the target, they explode very well ignoring the failure rate of the contact pin towards 90 AOB. But fail the magnetic influence did alot just getting there, look inside the .sim file while getting to the target. Now if they did, you got a big bang under the keel and that should be reflected in a larger explosion radius. It would be a gamble and make the game more interesting, though you must role play the torpedos a bit (no way to select the setting).

But for real life simulation, I do agree with the above posters...makes no difference if you are obaying orders.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by nomad_delta

So that's the summary of what I've found out so far:

You're stuck with magnetic exploders whether you want them or not prior to 03/31/1943.

After 03/31/1943, your magnetic exploders go away and you can't turn them back on again no matter what you do.

ok, but that was more or less the historical reality, so I don't see what the problem is.

[PepsiCan]

...that we have a button that does not work. So, either have it work or delete the button/turn it into an indicator.

Secondly, the date is not historically accurate. Pearl Harbor boats got the word at the end of march, 1943 (the date in the file), but Australia boats continued using the magnetic exploder for several months longer (1-2 full patrols in terms of the game). The date should vary depending on the command your sub belongs to. If that issue can be resolved with a mod, fine, no issue indeed. But it may also be that it is unmodable.

I don't think this is a game spoiler, but the way it has been implemented looks a bit odd/rushed.

[WernerSobe]

interestning findings well done...

that was something that ive supposed. Early war torpedoes seem to detonate very well from any angle, the late war ones fail on taper angles therefore being more reliable regarding premature detonations.

However the proper keel damage can be moded. Suppositional that we can get the torpedoes explode below the keel. Damage itself must be worked out in ship damage files. You can set up the keel to have less hitpoints and have a high critical rate (its set to 5% by default). Then the ships should break in two parts when being hit by a torpedo explosion under the keel.

moding different torpedoes (one for magnetic and one for contact) is not an option. You have to meet the decision which detonator you use when the tubes are ready. You cannot change the torpedo set up when you are aproaching a target.

[U-Schultz]

Reference the use of magnetic versus contact prior to 1943 it seems I have read in several sources that the early successful skippers (and this is what made them successful probably!) disregarded the standing orders, convinced of a problem with the magnetic fuse, and shot contact fuse only.

Some of the skippers went so far as to fudge their patrol reports which, in turn, made the problem more difficult for the higher-ups to diagnose as, "apparently the good skippers are not having a problem, it must be you" permeated widely.

So, for me, the switch should work and we should have the option as they did in real life.

[Bilge_Rat]

In RL some skippers were turning off the magnetic exploders just a few months into the war, in early '42 and were fudging their patrol reports to hide that fact, although others, notably Mush Morton, kept using it and appeared to have good results.

In the game, if we had the option, everyone would turn off the magnetic exploder on december 7th, 1941, which is hardly historical. As it is, unless the numbers have changed in 1.3, the magnetic exploder is way more reliable in the game then it ever was in RL, so I don't see this as being a real issue.

Thanks for the testing Nomad_Delta, did you notice if the reliability of torpedoes was changed in 1.3?

[XanderF]

Originally Posted by Jungman

2) Last easy idea is to make the Mark 23 available from the get go start of war and pretend it is a Mark 14 contact only, which it is BTY and more reliable. Mark 23 is contact only and no (less) chance to premature detenation. Make them cost renown since you are disobeying orders by disable the magnetic exploder which some captains did despite what SubPak ordered. Reflects your disobaying orders.

I actually like that idea - including the concept of it 'costing renown' to do it, as it does reflect disobeying orders.

I also agree that the switch-that-does-nothing is kind of silly in this context. First off, the idea you could toggle between 'magnetic' or 'impact' in a switch in the con seems somewhat ahistorical, anyway - they had to take the torpedo apart to change that setting, didn't they? So we shouldn't have the switch to begin with. As an indicator, it would be handy (so you could remember which tube you put magnetics in and which are contact-only), but...maybe even that is not necessary. If we modded the torpedoes in the game to have a separate "Mark 14 contact" and "Mark 14 magnetic", that would presumably show in the inventory, so you could see which is where.

Hmmm....I really like this idea!

EDIT: It would be worth pointing out that, pre-1943, it's buying the contacts that costs you renown, and post-1943, it's buying the magnetic Mark 14s that cost you renown - as the choice that is disobeying orders changes.

Nomad - did you have a chance to test the other torpedoes? Mark 18s, for example? How do these behave?

[nomad_delta]

Thanks for the input and ideas, guys. I'll be running some further tests when I get home from work and I'll see what I can find out about the 'reliability' situation for both torpedo types (actual contact vs actual magnetic). During my earlier tests I had intentionally disabled duds, prematures, and depth-keeping problems -- to avoid having any random factors influencing my testing. Later I'll also test the "actual magnetics" for effectiveness at 'breaking' a ship when exploding well below the draft.

In case anyone's wondering, my end-goal here is to realistically model historical torpedoes and usage. If the magnetic detonators were historically unreliable (frequent duds, prematures due to waves, exploding w/o effect 10 yards in front the target while looking like a 'hit', etc...) then by all means we should have magnetic exploders that barely work in the game too -- give us a 75% or higher failure rate if that's what the real skippers had.

But we should at least have the option of switching our torpedos to 'contact only' just like the real skippers did, and experience the 'perfect 90 degree shot smashes the impact pistol' dud problem instead, until that was fixed later in the war.

Unfortunately that's not what we have in the game now -- what we have instead is an exploder switch that does nothing. I'm not sure why Ubi put it in the game at all, other than to confuse us? Obviously they intended for the switch to do something since they bothered to put it in the game. Does anyone know if any Ubi devs ever read these forums, or if there's some way to get a message to them? I'd really like to know if they acknowledge this as a bug or if they knew about it before. It seems like a huge problem to make it through 3 patches unfixed.

nomad_delta

[nomad_delta]

Originally Posted by XanderF

Nomad - did you have a chance to test the other torpedoes? Mark 18s, for example? How do these behave?

Not yet, but not for lack of trying: I haven't been able to figure out a way to begin a mission with anything other than Mark14 torpedos loaded. I've been using a modified version of the 'torpedo attack' submarine school mission to run my tests, with a 'Large Modern Composite Freighter' running at 1 knot to provide an easy target.

Unfortunately, I can't figure out how to change the torpedo loadout the player starts with in the Mission Editor. If anyone knows or can figure out how to do this, I would love to test the other torpedo types for comparison.

nomad_delta

[Bando]

Funny thing is....At the MK10 you can also select mag/contact. This was a contact torpedo.

Don't know why it's in there.

Nomad, when you're looking at the torpedo files, you may want to take a look at the explosive poweras as well.
I've done that recently and found the explosive powers of the MK27 (about 43 Kg of torpex) compared to the MK 14 (about 300 Kg of torpex) a bit too much.
I went out to search the internet to find the actual explosive warhead and this made me to believe I'd have to tweak the torpedo files, which I did for my own use and to test. I haven't got much time lately, so a second opinion would be welcomed.

[jdkbph]

Originally Posted by nomad_delta

Does anyone know if any Ubi devs ever read these forums, or if there's some way to get a message to them? I'd really like to know if they acknowledge this as a bug or if they knew about it before. It seems like a huge problem to make it through 3 patches unfixed.

nomad_delta

I've read some posting from Elanaiba... sounds like he's either a dev or has an inside with a dev. Might want to try pinging him in one of the other threads he's posting to.

JD