WWII Subs Hulls - grey or red?

[Ansirial]

I'm a modeler and viewing many sources for the two models I'm building (a Type VII U-boot and a gato, both in 1/72 scale) I find something strange:

the istructions says that the hull should be grey for the VII and Black for the gato but in certain cases I find models with a red painted hull.

I build 3-4 small submarines models in the 90's and according to the sources I find I painted hulls in red (a common minium to prevent rust should be red)

Do you know how is the story? in the 2k WWII submarines changed hull colour? Or maybe something was discovered?

[fatty]

I am unsure of exact years or dates but I know that before the war, u-boat hulls were painted red. Sometime around the start of the war they started painting them grey. I can't comment on the U.S. subs.

[Hitman]

US submarines pre-war were painted in MS9 (Measure 9 or camouflage scheme 9 http://www.shipcamouflage.com/measure_9.htm) which meant all-matt black for any visible part, believing that helped most the invisibility by night. Later in the war they found out that a light grey on the sides combined with matt grey on the upperparts (Deck and upper part of basllast tanks) was better.

Germans already knew that light or dark grey was better overall, so they started the war like that. They later also tried schemes that included traces and figures to modify the visual perspective from far away. Those latter ones do not make the ship invisible but deceive about the true course and dimension of her.

As for the red colour you are referring to, that one is applied only to the part underwater and it is because red traditionally because it contains cupper, which seems to be poisoning for plants, algae and such that tend to stick to the hull. In the war the red was generally abandoned as it could give away the ship easier if the hull rocked above the waves. So pre-war and early war german and US subs had red hulls below the waterline, and later they turned dark grey. Look at this rare picture in colour pf pre-war launching of a fleet submarine: http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/0819304.jpg

Hope that helps

[Steel_Tomb]

red subs? doesnt that kind of go against the whole "stealth" thing of subs? "look, u-boat over there two miles away you can see the red blob"

[Boris]

Definitely not red during war time. The are some scattered reports of German subs having red hulls before the war, but thats all.

[Ansirial]

Thanks to all! Your help was very precious; as soon I'll finish models I'll post couple of photos

(The photo was fantastic... is there a Uss Flasher color photo too? I found some black & white photos but a colour one like that would be great - especially because colours are very smoothed and I can't distinguish dark grey to light grey)

Thanks again

[Chock]

The Squadron/Signal publication 'U-Boats in action', shows U-596 with a two tone (mediterranean) upper camouflage scheme and a red lower hull (that's in 1942). As far as I'm aware this seems to be the exception rather than the rule though.
There are plenty of pics of US WW2 subs with red hulls at launch, but I suspect this changed pretty rapidly when in service.
So you could model pretty much any WW2 sub with a red lower hull and not be 'technically' innaccurate, but it would seem to be a rather esoteric choice and probably not very representative of the norm in combat.

Chock

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Steel_Tomb

red subs? doesnt that kind of go against the whole "stealth" thing of subs? "look, u-boat over there two miles away you can see the red blob"

Not the whole hull. At the waterline was a black band, and the underside was red. The question as to whether u-boats were painted that way has been asked before, and so far no one has been able to give a definitive answer.

[Letum]

Red hulled U-boats enterd popular culture in the UK because the press relyed on pre-war accounts of what German U-boats looked like.

[AntEater]

The red paint is supposed to reduce growth of maritime organisms on the underside of the ship.
But I am not entirely sure wether it is the colour or the chemical composition of the paint or a mixture of both. I only know that antifouling paint is hazardous material.
When Gorch Fock went into drydock, we had to paint her whole topsides, but below the waterline was done by dockyard workers in protective suits and gas masks.

Regarding wartime use of such paint, I can't see how below waterline red is compromising visibility. Of course growth was a limited issue as most ships build in WW2 hardly lived long enough to bother with speed reduction by that cause...

[Ansirial]

I know the risk to be off topic but, seen your preparation, I have another question about the "livery" of the gato: istructions says that on the sides of the turret there is a big number and sub logo but, viewing many photos I saw that numbers and logos are very rare. Somebody can explain me when numbers were painted? Maybe during a patrol the numbers and logos were removed?

[Hitman]

Numbers were used in peace time, once they entered the war the ships were blacked out completely as per oficial orders. Yet the crews could not resist painting the little flags that show sinkings or rescued aviators. In the pictures of new submarines launching you will notice that all pre-war are launched with the hull number, but any sub you see on the rails in 1942 onwards will already not have it:hmm:

I am not entirely sure wether it is the colour or the chemical composition of the paint or a mixture of both.

As I posted before, the red seems to originate in the cupper oxide that was thrown into the mix. It was gift to the plants and algae during some time, though quite difficult to change in colour with paint mix without losing its properties (Dilluted enough to make the paint look black it is no longer that effective, I have been told).

I can't see how below waterline red is compromising visibility

The idea was to prevent the red from being seen when the ship rocks by heavy waves and the bow or stern come out of the water, though that was only done by germans. US subs kept the red paint down till the end of teh war in many cases, probably due to the warmer and usually calmer waters in the Pacific, plus the length of the patrols, all of which favoured a lot more the growth of algae in the hull. BTW that would also explain why U-Boots operating in the Mediterranean kept the red hull....

Here are some pictures that might be of some help for your work:

1) German submarines camouflage evolution (Picture from the 24th spanish Flotilla archives, Wolfpack league) 2) Gato in MS9 colour, 3) Another Gato in 1943 colours:

[Chock]

Here you go:



Chock

[August]

Saw the thing off at the waterline, stick it in some ocean painted resin, problem solved.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Hitman

According to the book US Submarines 1941-1945, the bottom anti-fouling paints were "normally black", the the book does give one illustration of an early war sub with a red hull bottom.