[req] Looking for authoritive info on surface endurance

[Ducimus]

Anyone know a site that has some authoritve information on exactly how far fleet submarines could travel? Or even a book and dont mind posting the specs listed?

Ive scoured the net repeatidly and sources all seem to vary, but generally agree upon the neighborhood of 12,000 NM @ 10 kts for most sub types, which i find hard to beleive when i find other sources that say for example one of the subtle differences between the tambor and gar was a bit more fuel. Some sources site one sub type of 96,000 gallons, another cites 100+ gallons, and the general slap of 12,000KM @ 10 kts is given, again, im skeptical.

By default the game has a 15,000 NM @ 10 kt endurance. Fuel management hardly comes into play. Unless thats a reflection of some wartme modification, id really love to bring it back down to historical specfications (whatever they are), and would love some more authorive info on it.

[Ducimus]

And yes, this is me counting rivets.

[tedhealy]

I assume you've looked at valortatsea.com?

http://www.valoratsea.com/gato.htm
http://www.valoratsea.com/Tambor.htm
http://www.valoratsea.com/Salmon1.htm
http://www.valoratsea.com/pclass.htm
http://www.valoratsea.com/Sclass1.htm

I couldn't tell you how accurate the info is, but it's another bit of info.

[Ducimus]

Ya ive looked at that site, all the other major ones that everyone knows about.

Not specific enough for me. I mean, if i have to ill settle at, or around 12,000 @ 10 kts, i guess i will, but i think thats a round approximation. Theres just too many inconsitances on specifics.

edit: for example, valoratsea.com will say 12,000 on a tambor, and fleetsubmarine.com will say 11. go to some of the wiki articles and it will say 11,800 on a gato, and elsewhere it will say 12. etc etc, back and forth link ping pong.

[tedhealy]

Another place to look might be navsource

http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/04idx.htm

It looks like it will either list the fuel capacity or range for most.

edit: Considering so many boats were modified individually, I would imagine one exact number probably wouldn't apply to all boats. Some will be higher or lower within the same class.

edit2: just looking at early Balaos vs late ones, the earlies have around 95,000 fuel capacity and the laters have around 115,000 or so, so one number won't sum up all the boats in a class.

[Canonicus]

One book that I consider to be authoritative on this subject is "U.S. Submarines Through 1945" by Norman Freidman Phd. published by Naval Institute Press, 1995

In this very exhaustive study, Dr. Freidman lists in appendix D " Submarine Data".

the folowing figures....

Surface Endurance (nm/kt)

S-18...3420/6.5
Max fuel in MBT (Main Ballast Tank) ...8950/9.5

S-42... 2510/6.5
Max fuel in MBT..... 10,000/8.1

Porpoise... 6000/10
Max fuel in MBT... 22,000/8

Salmon... 11,000/10

Sargo... 11,000/10

Tambor/Gar... 11,000/10

Gato... 11,000/10

Balao... 11,000/10

I've seen some data that suggests that the later Balao/Tench boats had 12,000/10
surface endurance ... but NEVER 15,000 nm .

Hope this helps.

[Jmack]

here what i found ... not shure how reliable they are because they all say
maximum range 11,000 miles at 10 knots


Balao Class

Fuel Capacity: 116,000 gallons.

Tench Class

Fuel Capacity: 118,510 gallons.

Gato Class

Fuel Capacity: 94.400 gallons.

Sargo Class

Fuel Capacity: 109,900 gallons.

Tambor Class

Fuel Capacity: 93,993 / 96,365 gallons.

Salmon Class

Fuel Capacity: 96,025 gallons.

Shark Class

Fuel Capacity: 85,946 / 86,675 gallons.

[Ducimus]

@tedhealy good point on individual modificaitons. I think one might have to settle for an average or best case scenario.

@Jmack
Good work. Thats a little bit more along the lines of what im looking for, although i woudlnt doubt they're be some variences. Now the trouble is how to convert that to a number usable by the game. (IE MaxRange @ speed format)

:hmm:


edit: Wow, did the sargo really have more fuel then a gato? (generally speaking)

[Jmack]

considering that the average goes around 12,000 or 11,000 nm at 10 knots and you have for example for the tench 118,510 gallons this means that i... err well im not vey good at math

[SgtWalt65]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

@tedhealy good point on individual modificaitons. I think one might have to settle for an average or best case scenario.

@Jmack
Good work. Thats a little bit more along the lines of what im looking for, although i woudlnt doubt they're be some variences. Now the trouble is how to convert that to a number usable by the game. (IE MaxRange @ speed format)

:hmm:


edit: Wow, did the sargo really have more fuel then a gato? (generally speaking)

What I woul do would be to try and find out best and worse and set it for say 65-70% between the two leaning towards the better side. Really depends on the Boats Captain and how he sailed her.

[U-Bones]

Observation:

I played a Tambor for 2 Patrols in TM 1.0 and was luckily in port for 1.1.

Assignments: Patrol 3 was Formosa Commando Insertion, Deploy Formosa Sea, Prosecute Shipping. Nice.

Mileage: at start my CE calculated 11200 at 10kt. I ordered 45% throtttle (my std), and that figure shoots up to 13600 at ~9.4kt

I do not believe the range@speed settings used in *.sim are the most efficient settings in game as is commonly thought. They CAN be, but when they are it is co-incidental. I believe that efficiency is directly related to throttle %, such as is used in the *.cfg file. I could be wrong but...

At any rate the max range is actually almost 20% higher, IF you have a good CE
Dunno what you want to do with the info, but there it is for you to consider.

BTW, nice job on 1.1- I am playing with only my keyboard and camera on top. (and sub throttle speeds in the cfg lol - i use them as creep, stationkeeping,maxrange,full & flank .125,.33,.45,.9,1.0). Once you get use to this everything else is a lot of unneccessary dial clicking. Old habits and crutches - with them everything just felt right.

Again, nice job.

[tedhealy]

Originally Posted by Jmack

here what i found ... not shure how reliable they are because they all say
maximum range 11,000 miles at 10 knots


Balao Class

Fuel Capacity: 116,000 gallons.

Tench Class

Fuel Capacity: 118,510 gallons.

Gato Class

Fuel Capacity: 94.400 gallons.

Sargo Class

Fuel Capacity: 109,900 gallons.

Tambor Class

Fuel Capacity: 93,993 / 96,365 gallons.

Salmon Class

Fuel Capacity: 96,025 gallons.

Shark Class

Fuel Capacity: 85,946 / 86,675 gallons.

I think those are good numbers on average and using an average is the best we'll be able to do in sh4.

If you look at individual subs within a class (assuming navsource is accurate), some subs had very different fuel capacities. Some gatos had 115,000, some balaos had 94,000. We don't know what kind of upgrades a sub may have gotten throughout the war to improve fuel capacity, if the later built boats within a class had some of those upgrades built in straight from the yard, or why sometimes a later boat in a class has a smaller fuel capacity.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by tedhealy

If you look at individual subs within a class (assuming navsource is accurate), some subs had very different fuel capacities. Some gatos had 115,000, some balaos had 94,000. We don't know what kind of upgrades a sub may have gotten throughout the war to improve fuel capacity, if the later built boats within a class had some of those upgrades built in straight from the yard, or why sometimes a later boat in a class has a smaller fuel capacity.

Ya i was just looking at that, its all over the place. At this point im just wondering how they scale against each other sans modification. For example would an unmodified Sargo have more range then an unmodified Gato or not?

Im starting to think thats a tootsie pop question.

[Jmack]

in all the sites i found including wiki ... the range never goes beyond 12,000 at 10 knots

for example the Valor at Sea site :

for the gato class has the following

11,800 nm at 10 knots
97,140 gallons