[REL] Recog Manual-Trading Speed for Length

Brigs · 05-07-07, 08:19 AM

Since starting to use aspect ratio for targeting (thanks again Hitman), I've found that I don't really care what an enemy ship's maximum speed is.....I only care how fast it's going when we actually cross paths. And, while setting up a firing solution, I'll be determining the current speed for myself anyway.

What is important to me, however, is the ship's length. So, I traded off ship maximum speed for ship length on the in-game recognition manual pages.

Here's an example:

It would have been better to be able to 'add' the length to the existing info pages instead of 'replacing' the speed. But, this comes in very handy for me.

My biggest concern was screwing up the speed in the sea/ship/config files, but after a few patrols with this new info available, all appears to be well.

Seems like the sim gets the actual speed info from the sim files, and doesn't really care what values are in the config files. I'm new to this, so maybe one of the 'old salts' can verify that for me ?

If anyone else is interested in this, you can get it here:
http://files.filefront.com/RecogManu.../fileinfo.html

Brigs

don1reed · 05-07-07, 09:34 AM

I believe you should upload it to one of the "Down Loading" sources, Brigs. I for one, noted the absence of LOA in the game's recon man.

Brigs · 05-07-07, 10:44 AM

Good idea Don. Never thought about it.....guess I figured it would just magically appear on people's hard drives if they wanted it. The 'new guy' syndrome.

Thanks

don1reed · 05-07-07, 03:22 PM

Excellent. BTW, welcome aboard, great to make your acquaintence.

Bilge_Rat · 05-07-07, 04:13 PM

Good Idea Brigs, I also use Hitman's AOB method and having to look up the ship's length on the paper recognition manual is a pain. I will give your mod a try.

CaptainHunter · 05-07-07, 05:27 PM

I'll give it a go myself.

Thanks

CaptainHunter · 05-07-07, 06:39 PM

Installed it with JSGME but couldn't get it to work

Jungman · 05-07-07, 07:30 PM

Great idea! Nice way to figure the AOB using length.

You may have to install manually, not JSGME.

Did anyone figure out what the true spacing of the periscope is?? Degree per spacing.

I thought people concluded that the ingame distance are really in meters instead of yards throwing off the range calculation by the ratio of yard to meter ~ 1.09

Does one have to worry about this? I guess the ratio is the import part, but if the range is off, it could affect the calculation.

Bilge_Rat · 05-07-07, 07:59 PM

I believe the range is meters since all my calculations are off about 10% when I use Imperial, however as long as you don't shoot over about 1,000 yds, you can still get close to 100% hit ratio.

I use Hitman's guide to determine AOB and the 3 minute rule to determine the estimated speed. I then refine the actual speed using the PK to get a final solution.

My hit ratio has gone from about 1 in 3 to 90+ % in manual TDC.

However I noticed all my initial speed estimates using the three minute rule were about 10-20% too high, so I think the range is off on the NAV map also.

Brigs · 05-07-07, 08:53 PM

CaptainHunter,

Hmmm, only thing I can think of is this.....there are two 'RecogManualShipLength'
directories (folders) in the download. The first folder contains the readme file and also another folder called 'RecogManualShipLength'. The second folder is the one that needs to be copied into your SH4/mod folder. Hope that helps. If not, let me know.

Hi Jungman,

Thanks. Yeah, I like that the scope markings are actually functional now by using the length to figure AOB.

I thought people concluded that the ingame distance are really in meters instead of yards throwing off the range calculation by the ratio of yard to meter ~ 1.09

The ships length info in the files are also in meters, but I converted them so the recognition manual now shows the ship length in feet.

Thanks Bilge_Rat. Yep, I like the paper manual because that's what they used on the boats.....on the other hand, having to fumble around for the flashlight every time we go to battle stations kind of takes me 'out of the moment'.....a two sided coin.

Thanks Don,
The pleasure is all mine. I like it here.....it's all smelly and cramped, just like my sub.

CaptainHunter · 05-07-07, 09:46 PM

Brigs,

I extracted it to my MOD folder and it showed up in JSGME so I enabled it but still not working, I'm am running a lot of other mods tho.

Thanks

U-Bones · 05-07-07, 10:37 PM

The reason folks are having a hard time with this is it is not properly set up for JSGME

It has this path in the rar file
RecogManualShipLength\RecogManualShipLength\Data\f iles and such
It needs to have
RecogManualShipLength\Data\files and such

Also Brigs, reading your readme.txt, you state
"If you have the JP Ship Dimension mod installed (thanks Krupp), JSGME will give you conflict messages....it's ok to install over top of that mod. "

Unless you used his MOD as your starting point this is not true. You will overwrite his ship.cfg files that contain "draft, widht and lenght dimensions. Plus some displacements and speeds" with your cfg files that have presumably only length fixes. So basically, unless you used his mod as a basis for further correcting length, your mod completely wipes his cfg files out, and further probably make them no longer match the sim file corrections he made, and that are still in effect.

If someone wants to use your idea, but base it on Krupps's data, all they need is your menu.txt tweaks. Pretty sweet and simple. If you and he have major differences and cant agree on lengths, so be it, but maybe you two should hash out the data since you are both interested and motivated. Between you, there is good data, plus an optional menu.txt that allows players choice of two styles of RecManuals.

As it stands though, the mods are not compatible. You should repackage, update the readme to reflect this, and correct the path issue for JSGME.

Now if you did in fact use his data, pardon me and brilliant job, except you should explicitly credit the use.

And welcome, this is a really good idea, and you did put a lot of work into it. Hats off.

Hitman · 05-08-07, 07:52 AM

The really nice thing of the Aspect Ratio method is that it works equally weel with yards or metres, feet or decimetres....

So I would suggest that you modify the manual to actually replace the mast height (Unless it breaks the stadimeter) with the aspect ratio. So you can have the aspect ratio directly for AOB, and the length for the speed measurement. If that fails, could the AR be added behind the lentgh in the same line? F.e. in the Mogami example, you would read something like this:

Length = 656 ft (AR 5.77)

Bilge_Rat · 05-08-07, 08:51 AM

That's a good suggestion by Hitman, having the AOR on screen would simplify matters, I hate having to pause the game to do MATH calculations...

.

On the whole imperial/meters feature/bug, I still have problems figuring it out the correct answer, if the game reads yards as meters and all distances are off about 10%, the PK should also give us a speed which is off since it is based on the wrong distance (elementary TMA 101), so wrong distance/speed, when shooting at a target 100-150 yds long which is 1,000+ yds away should result in a large percentage of misses.

As noted above however, I am now getting 90-100% hit ratio at 1,000 yds when the correct range/AOB/speed are fed into the PK, so something does not add up.

The manual states that the measurements on the NAV map have a "fudge" factor built in to simulate RL 1940's conditions, I am wondering if this might not be the answer.

Brigs · 05-08-07, 09:39 AM

Hi U-Bones,

Your points are well taken.

Krupp's JP Ship Dimension Mod data was, in fact, used as the 'base' data for this. I did have it installed while making the changes, so there's no problem with overwriting those config files.

I did put a thanks in the readme file but, after reading it again, you're right.....it could have been more explicit. The readme has been updated.....please check it out to make sure the wording does the proper job of giving credits.

I wasn't sure where to put the readme (hence two folders). But, if everyone is used to seeing only one folder which includes both the mod and the readme, then that's no problem. The download file has been updated, and now contains a single 'mod' folder (which includes the readme).

If I missed anything else, let me know. Appreciate your input.....keep me straight until I get my sea legs here.

Hi Hitman,

Excellent idea. I'll play around a little bit with the files and see if I can do that.

I also wondered if the sinus scale in your tutorial could somehow be added to the tools on the Nav map ? I don't know anything about graphics stuff, so don't know if it's even possible.

05-07-07, 08:19 AM	#1
Brigs Watch Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 30 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	[REL] Recog Manual-Trading Speed for Length Since starting to use aspect ratio for targeting (thanks again Hitman), I've found that I don't really care what an enemy ship's maximum speed is.....I only care how fast it's going when we actually cross paths. And, while setting up a firing solution, I'll be determining the current speed for myself anyway. What is important to me, however, is the ship's length. So, I traded off ship maximum speed for ship length on the in-game recognition manual pages. Here's an example: It would have been better to be able to 'add' the length to the existing info pages instead of 'replacing' the speed. But, this comes in very handy for me. My biggest concern was screwing up the speed in the sea/ship/config files, but after a few patrols with this new info available, all appears to be well. Seems like the sim gets the actual speed info from the sim files, and doesn't really care what values are in the config files. I'm new to this, so maybe one of the 'old salts' can verify that for me ? If anyone else is interested in this, you can get it here: http://files.filefront.com/RecogManu.../fileinfo.html Brigs Last edited by Brigs; 05-08-07 at 09:42 AM.

05-07-07, 09:34 AM	#2
don1reed Ace of the Deep Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Valhalla: Silent Generation Posts: 1,149 Downloads: 910 Uploads: 0	I believe you should upload it to one of the "Down Loading" sources, Brigs. I for one, noted the absence of LOA in the game's recon man. __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~ George Orwell

05-07-07, 03:22 PM	#4
don1reed Ace of the Deep Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Valhalla: Silent Generation Posts: 1,149 Downloads: 910 Uploads: 0	Excellent. BTW, welcome aboard, great to make your acquaintence. __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~ George Orwell

05-08-07, 07:52 AM	#13
Hitman Pacific Aces Dev Team Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Spain Posts: 6,109 Downloads: 109 Uploads: 2	The really nice thing of the Aspect Ratio method is that it works equally weel with yards or metres, feet or decimetres.... So I would suggest that you modify the manual to actually replace the mast height (Unless it breaks the stadimeter) with the aspect ratio. So you can have the aspect ratio directly for AOB, and the length for the speed measurement. If that fails, could the AR be added behind the lentgh in the same line? F.e. in the Mogami example, you would read something like this: Length = 656 ft (AR 5.77) __________________ One day I will return to sea ...

05-07-07, 10:44 AM	#3
Brigs Watch Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 30 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Good idea Don. Never thought about it.....guess I figured it would just magically appear on people's hard drives if they wanted it. The 'new guy' syndrome. Thanks

05-07-07, 04:13 PM	#5
Bilge_Rat Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: standing watch... Posts: 3,856 Downloads: 344 Uploads: 0	Good Idea Brigs, I also use Hitman's AOB method and having to look up the ship's length on the paper recognition manual is a pain. I will give your mod a try.

05-07-07, 05:27 PM	#6
CaptainHunter Loader Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 86 Downloads: 23 Uploads: 0	I'll give it a go myself. Thanks

05-07-07, 06:39 PM	#7
CaptainHunter Loader Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 86 Downloads: 23 Uploads: 0	Installed it with JSGME but couldn't get it to work

05-07-07, 07:30 PM	#8
Jungman Samurai Navy Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Iowa, USA Posts: 596 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Great idea! Nice way to figure the AOB using length. You may have to install manually, not JSGME. Did anyone figure out what the true spacing of the periscope is?? Degree per spacing. I thought people concluded that the ingame distance are really in meters instead of yards throwing off the range calculation by the ratio of yard to meter ~ 1.09 Does one have to worry about this? I guess the ratio is the import part, but if the range is off, it could affect the calculation.

05-07-07, 07:59 PM	#9
Bilge_Rat Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: standing watch... Posts: 3,856 Downloads: 344 Uploads: 0	I believe the range is meters since all my calculations are off about 10% when I use Imperial, however as long as you don't shoot over about 1,000 yds, you can still get close to 100% hit ratio. I use Hitman's guide to determine AOB and the 3 minute rule to determine the estimated speed. I then refine the actual speed using the PK to get a final solution. My hit ratio has gone from about 1 in 3 to 90+ % in manual TDC. However I noticed all my initial speed estimates using the three minute rule were about 10-20% too high, so I think the range is off on the NAV map also.

05-07-07, 08:53 PM	#10
Brigs Watch Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 30 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	CaptainHunter, Hmmm, only thing I can think of is this.....there are two 'RecogManualShipLength' directories (folders) in the download. The first folder contains the readme file and also another folder called 'RecogManualShipLength'. The second folder is the one that needs to be copied into your SH4/mod folder. Hope that helps. If not, let me know. Hi Jungman, Thanks. Yeah, I like that the scope markings are actually functional now by using the length to figure AOB. I thought people concluded that the ingame distance are really in meters instead of yards throwing off the range calculation by the ratio of yard to meter ~ 1.09 The ships length info in the files are also in meters, but I converted them so the recognition manual now shows the ship length in feet. Thanks Bilge_Rat. Yep, I like the paper manual because that's what they used on the boats.....on the other hand, having to fumble around for the flashlight every time we go to battle stations kind of takes me 'out of the moment'.....a two sided coin. Thanks Don, The pleasure is all mine. I like it here.....it's all smelly and cramped, just like my sub.

05-07-07, 09:46 PM	#11
CaptainHunter Loader Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 86 Downloads: 23 Uploads: 0	Brigs, I extracted it to my MOD folder and it showed up in JSGME so I enabled it but still not working, I'm am running a lot of other mods tho. Thanks

05-07-07, 10:37 PM	#12
U-Bones Grey Wolf Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Treading Water Posts: 847 Downloads: 56 Uploads: 0	The reason folks are having a hard time with this is it is not properly set up for JSGME It has this path in the rar file RecogManualShipLength\RecogManualShipLength\Data\f iles and such It needs to have RecogManualShipLength\Data\files and such Also Brigs, reading your readme.txt, you state "If you have the JP Ship Dimension mod installed (thanks Krupp), JSGME will give you conflict messages....it's ok to install over top of that mod. " Unless you used his MOD as your starting point this is not true. You will overwrite his ship.cfg files that contain "draft, widht and lenght dimensions. Plus some displacements and speeds" with your cfg files that have presumably only length fixes. So basically, unless you used his mod as a basis for further correcting length, your mod completely wipes his cfg files out, and further probably make them no longer match the sim file corrections he made, and that are still in effect. If someone wants to use your idea, but base it on Krupps's data, all they need is your menu.txt tweaks. Pretty sweet and simple. If you and he have major differences and cant agree on lengths, so be it, but maybe you two should hash out the data since you are both interested and motivated. Between you, there is good data, plus an optional menu.txt that allows players choice of two styles of RecManuals. As it stands though, the mods are not compatible. You should repackage, update the readme to reflect this, and correct the path issue for JSGME. Now if you did in fact use his data, pardon me and brilliant job, except you should explicitly credit the use. And welcome, this is a really good idea, and you did put a lot of work into it. Hats off.

05-08-07, 08:51 AM	#14
Bilge_Rat Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: standing watch... Posts: 3,856 Downloads: 344 Uploads: 0	That's a good suggestion by Hitman, having the AOR on screen would simplify matters, I hate having to pause the game to do MATH calculations... . On the whole imperial/meters feature/bug, I still have problems figuring it out the correct answer, if the game reads yards as meters and all distances are off about 10%, the PK should also give us a speed which is off since it is based on the wrong distance (elementary TMA 101), so wrong distance/speed, when shooting at a target 100-150 yds long which is 1,000+ yds away should result in a large percentage of misses. As noted above however, I am now getting 90-100% hit ratio at 1,000 yds when the correct range/AOB/speed are fed into the PK, so something does not add up. The manual states that the measurements on the NAV map have a "fudge" factor built in to simulate RL 1940's conditions, I am wondering if this might not be the answer.

05-08-07, 09:39 AM	#15
Brigs Watch Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 30 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Hi U-Bones, Your points are well taken. Krupp's JP Ship Dimension Mod data was, in fact, used as the 'base' data for this. I did have it installed while making the changes, so there's no problem with overwriting those config files. I did put a thanks in the readme file but, after reading it again, you're right.....it could have been more explicit. The readme has been updated.....please check it out to make sure the wording does the proper job of giving credits. I wasn't sure where to put the readme (hence two folders). But, if everyone is used to seeing only one folder which includes both the mod and the readme, then that's no problem. The download file has been updated, and now contains a single 'mod' folder (which includes the readme). If I missed anything else, let me know. Appreciate your input.....keep me straight until I get my sea legs here. Hi Hitman, Excellent idea. I'll play around a little bit with the files and see if I can do that. I also wondered if the sinus scale in your tutorial could somehow be added to the tools on the Nav map ? I don't know anything about graphics stuff, so don't know if it's even possible.