[TEC] Minesweepers and Subchasers

mcoca · 04-22-07, 06:48 AM

First of all, I'm not a modder, just more of a tinkerer, so I'm just getting this information out for those who intend to mod the campaign files for realism.

The subsim members more familiar with the Pacific campaign say the Japanese rarely used destroyers as merchant escorts, mostly relying on the smaller subchasers and converted minesweepers. So I was curious to see how those performed in the game. The results are not good.

I tested with a single mission in which I placed first a subchaser, and then a minesweeper, near my sub, let them see me, and then ran away making lots of noise.

First problem is that the subchaser doesn't use it's deck gun at all, so if you run around in the surface, it just runs circles about you (sometimes using the AA gun, which doesn't really cause any damage). I don't know how to fix this. The gun si the same used on merchants, and it works fine there.

Also, it had trouble hitting my sub when at periscope depth: the AI avoids collisions like the plague, so they would drop DCs to my side, not directly on top. When going down to 100-120 feet, they would do a proper run and kill me.

That's more or less ok, at least it will keep you occupied. But the minesweeper is a mess. It attacks on the surface, but even though it has active sonar and two DC racks, it will not attack a submerged sub. It pinged me once, and then ran away zig-zagging. The good news is, this is fixable.

Apparently the minesweeper AI is not programmed for ASW. But if you edit its config files (both the one in Roster and the one in Sea), and change its type from 5 (minesweeper) to 0 (patrol craft), it will become an efficient sub killer (with the same problem at periscope depth as the SC, though). This change will crash any mission using a minesweeper, but the ship is not used in the campaign files, so it's no big deal.

I hope this helps someone.

Jace11 · 04-22-07, 07:53 AM

Good idea, the variation in ASW vessels is pretty low, and the SC is rubbish.

The only problem is if it is used anywhere else... I will check the Jap Harbor traffic layer, I think that is the only place it could be...

As for the Subchaser not using its gun...

I note its heavy gun on the bow has an M01 node, while on other ships it is A01, A02 etc.. whether changing the node type will make it engage with it I dint know.. The M01 node is referenced in the dat file as part of the model, I may try hex editing it later to see what happens...

Need a pro though for some advice on this.. one of the modellers would be good..

tater · 04-22-07, 08:36 AM

I actually changed both the minesweeper and subchaser to type=1 (corvette), reserving the "patrol craft" for the brown water stuff. There is a frigate type as well that will work as an escort.

This allows you to set "generic corvette" and not have those idiotic river/coastal gunboats in the open sea.

The W-13 minesweeper in the game is a decent fill-in for many missing ships between 500-1000 tons. The AI really needs some work, and ramming should pretty well kill the sub, not the escort like it does now.

tater

mcoca · 04-22-07, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

I actually changed both the minesweeper and subchaser to type=1 (corvette), reserving the "patrol craft" for the brown water stuff. There is a frigate type as well that will work as an escort.

This allows you to set "generic corvette" and not have those idiotic river/coastal gunboats in the open sea.

Hey, I was just going to suggest that next!

From a few Google searchs, I think the gunboats in the game should only appear in and around the China coast. Right?

Jace11 · 04-22-07, 09:00 AM

ok well renaming the node didnt work, so I moved the 3 inch gun onto the raised platform. Not ideal, but it can fire over the bow without any elevation problems and will force your sub under:

http://www.speedyshare.com/950677210.html

Install it to:-

C:\Program Files\Ubisoft\Silent Hunter 4 Wolves of the Pacific\Data\Sea\NSC_SubChaser

tater · 04-22-07, 09:23 AM

Nice. Yeah, it's true, those gunboats are really chinese river boats. I also deleted them from anyplace in game that would have required them to cross open ocean since any storm would swamp them.

Here's the place to get some info on the minesweepers, subchasers, kaibokan, etc.
http://www.combinedfleet.com/Tokusetsu%20Kansen!.htm

Anyway, changing them to corvettes, etc, is part of the planned fixes to the campaign layers

Good catch on the deck gun (and nice fix), hadn't noticed that

tater

tater · 04-22-07, 09:25 AM

BTW, where is the raised platform?

Have to load up the game I guess.

Roadsweeper · 04-22-07, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcoca

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

I actually changed both the minesweeper and subchaser to type=1 (corvette), reserving the "patrol craft" for the brown water stuff. There is a frigate type as well that will work as an escort.

This allows you to set "generic corvette" and not have those idiotic river/coastal gunboats in the open sea.

Hey, I was just going to suggest that next!

From a few Google searchs, I think the gunboats in the game should only appear in and around the China coast. Right?

Just a thought... I dont know about the Jap gunboats, but certainly the UK's larger class of river gunboats were perfectly capable of deep sea travel, not just costal work.

I'm a modeler by hobby (build R/C boats), and have just completed an insect glass gunboat. OK these were older, originally commissioned in 1916-1918, but have done a great deal of research on them. Some of the Insect class lasted up until after WW2, and I can say as a definate fact, they were more than capable of crossing an ocean. You guys may be correct in that the smaller ones should be kept to costal areas, but the large gunboat, I would have felt would definately been capable of crossing an ocean.

Also the japanese, being as they were, used everything they had, they may well have used the larger gunboats for convoy duty closer to home to free up the destroyers for larger convoys on more dangerous routes.

mcoca · 04-22-07, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace11

ok well renaming the node didnt work, so I moved the 3 inch gun onto the raised platform. Not ideal, but it can fire over the bow without any elevation problems and will force your sub under:

Nice workaround. I've been testing other possible fixes, but I've got nothing. Changing the gun doesn't fix anything, and moving it anywhere but the raised platform doesn't work either. The node with the back AA gun has the same problem.

I think I found another bugged ship. If I test with an Akizuki destroyer, it only uses the central, raised, turrets, not the ones nearest the bow and stern. I'm beginning to think it might be related to the rail those ships have.

tater · 04-22-07, 11:10 AM

Yeah, but look at the difference:

UK gunboat:

Japanese river gunboat:

They might be seen away from the chinese coast, one could go from singapore to Sumatra, sail down the coast to Java, etc. What I'd not expect is to see them in the open ocean acting as escorts, ever.

04-22-07, 06:48 AM	#1
mcoca Loader Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Madrid, Spain Posts: 86 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	[TEC] Minesweepers and Subchasers First of all, I'm not a modder, just more of a tinkerer, so I'm just getting this information out for those who intend to mod the campaign files for realism. The subsim members more familiar with the Pacific campaign say the Japanese rarely used destroyers as merchant escorts, mostly relying on the smaller subchasers and converted minesweepers. So I was curious to see how those performed in the game. The results are not good. I tested with a single mission in which I placed first a subchaser, and then a minesweeper, near my sub, let them see me, and then ran away making lots of noise. First problem is that the subchaser doesn't use it's deck gun at all, so if you run around in the surface, it just runs circles about you (sometimes using the AA gun, which doesn't really cause any damage). I don't know how to fix this. The gun si the same used on merchants, and it works fine there. Also, it had trouble hitting my sub when at periscope depth: the AI avoids collisions like the plague, so they would drop DCs to my side, not directly on top. When going down to 100-120 feet, they would do a proper run and kill me. That's more or less ok, at least it will keep you occupied. But the minesweeper is a mess. It attacks on the surface, but even though it has active sonar and two DC racks, it will not attack a submerged sub. It pinged me once, and then ran away zig-zagging. The good news is, this is fixable. Apparently the minesweeper AI is not programmed for ASW. But if you edit its config files (both the one in Roster and the one in Sea), and change its type from 5 (minesweeper) to 0 (patrol craft), it will become an efficient sub killer (with the same problem at periscope depth as the SC, though). This change will crash any mission using a minesweeper, but the ship is not used in the campaign files, so it's no big deal. I hope this helps someone.

04-22-07, 07:53 AM	#2
Jace11 Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK Posts: 683 Downloads: 104 Uploads: 1	Good idea, the variation in ASW vessels is pretty low, and the SC is rubbish. The only problem is if it is used anywhere else... I will check the Jap Harbor traffic layer, I think that is the only place it could be... As for the Subchaser not using its gun... I note its heavy gun on the bow has an M01 node, while on other ships it is A01, A02 etc.. whether changing the node type will make it engage with it I dint know.. The M01 node is referenced in the dat file as part of the model, I may try hex editing it later to see what happens... Need a pro though for some advice on this.. one of the modellers would be good..

04-22-07, 08:36 AM	#3
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	I actually changed both the minesweeper and subchaser to type=1 (corvette), reserving the "patrol craft" for the brown water stuff. There is a frigate type as well that will work as an escort. This allows you to set "generic corvette" and not have those idiotic river/coastal gunboats in the open sea. The W-13 minesweeper in the game is a decent fill-in for many missing ships between 500-1000 tons. The AI really needs some work, and ramming should pretty well kill the sub, not the escort like it does now. tater

04-22-07, 09:00 AM	#5
Jace11 Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK Posts: 683 Downloads: 104 Uploads: 1	ok well renaming the node didnt work, so I moved the 3 inch gun onto the raised platform. Not ideal, but it can fire over the bow without any elevation problems and will force your sub under: http://www.speedyshare.com/950677210.html Install it to:- C:\Program Files\Ubisoft\Silent Hunter 4 Wolves of the Pacific\Data\Sea\NSC_SubChaser

04-22-07, 09:23 AM	#6
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Nice. Yeah, it's true, those gunboats are really chinese river boats. I also deleted them from anyplace in game that would have required them to cross open ocean since any storm would swamp them. Here's the place to get some info on the minesweepers, subchasers, kaibokan, etc. http://www.combinedfleet.com/Tokusetsu%20Kansen!.htm Anyway, changing them to corvettes, etc, is part of the planned fixes to the campaign layers Good catch on the deck gun (and nice fix), hadn't noticed that tater

04-22-07, 09:25 AM	#7
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	BTW, where is the raised platform? Have to load up the game I guess.

04-22-07, 11:10 AM	#10
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Yeah, but look at the difference: UK gunboat: Japanese river gunboat: They might be seen away from the chinese coast, one could go from singapore to Sumatra, sail down the coast to Java, etc. What I'd not expect is to see them in the open ocean acting as escorts, ever.