What is the average range that a crew could spot an Airplane in RL?

Rubini · 03-27-07, 01:36 PM

I'm working on the blind crew for airplanes issue
Someone have this info?

What is the average range that a crew could spot an Airplane (an Hurricane) in RL, WWII era, good conditions?

Will the crew listen its sound first?:hmm:

Thanks for any advice!

Rubini.

Paajtor · 03-27-07, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rubini

I'm working on the blind crew for airplanes issue
Someone have this info?
Will the crew listen its sound first?:hmm:

In most situations, yes I think.
It's that hey, wait a second...thought I heard something...there it is again, it's a plane guys! thing.

You then listen to pinpoint the general sound-direction, and raise your binoculars in the middle.
And bingo?
And from that moment on, it should take maybe roughly 30secs (?), for the plane to come into attack-range, suppose it travels at 110m/s (approx 400kmh), don't you think?

This means, that at flugzeuggesichted!=5km, you have about 20secs to crashdive and evade, before he can start to attack you from long range...just to keep the fun up, haha.

But I'm not sure if this is actually reliable info...just guessing as to how I would probably experience it in RL (not that I would want to lol).

Some exceptions, as to when the crew would see the plane earlier than hearing it:

- plane travels against the wind, or angled, towards you.
- Uboat engines make to much noise (flank speed etc)
- thunderstorm (no rain)
- heavy overcast clouds
- seen from the plane, the uboat has a low sun in the back

Rubini · 03-28-07, 10:05 AM

Thanks Paajtor,

I tried my entire afternoon yesterday on the net to find something more concrete. Only sparce references saying that a big plane on a clear day could be detected more than 10 km away without binoculars!

With these few infos I made the airplane fix (B24 at 8km using binoculars on a clear day). Let's now await for the feedbacks after the release.

Thanks again.

Sailor Steve · 03-28-07, 11:28 AM

8 km is what, 5 miles? I live in a very large valley, and I can see planes heading into the airport from a lot further than that. That said, where I can see them from is a hillside, so I'm probably 500 feet above the valley floor. From sea level, 8 km sounds about right.

The problem is, the eye detects movement before it sees real objects, so while you might detect a plane moving across your line of sight quickly, one moving directly toward you doesn't seem to be moving at all, so you might not recognize what you're seeing until it's far too late.

Letum · 03-28-07, 11:50 AM

It depends on hundreds of factors. On a clear day, looking away from the sun you can see the reflections on a planes wing at over 20km.
On a clear night you can see the exhaust sparks from a plane at very long range.

However, these conditions are very rare. If the conditions are poor the plane could literally be on top of you before you know about it.

There is not real answer to the question, it is totally dependant on the conditions and crew alertness/skill.

cyclop_si · 03-28-07, 11:54 AM

I do not have any idea about visual range for different airplanes, however I would like to make a note that is it big difference spoting jet aircraft due to contrail versus when you can hear it and there is no cntrail... and WWII aircraft did not produce any contrail... so be carefull not to set visual range to distant....

03-28-07, 12:20 PM

Rubini,

When will this increased airplane sighting be released? And will it be separate or an update to your Visual Hydrophone workaround Mod?

Bill Nichols · 03-28-07, 12:37 PM

Visual detection range is highly variable and depends on so many different things that giving a single number would be meaningless. Nonetheless, I did find this nugget:

"For the maximum detection range ground-to-air values between 9 and 16 km ... were obtained." (Note that this is under idealized conditions)

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1975srth.rept.....H

Rubini · 03-28-07, 01:34 PM

Many thanks to all you guys!

Even knowing that a "magic" value is probably not so realistic we need one "number" to start the work on this issue!.

I guess that the below settings are far better than the stock or others mods as an average distance to your crew start to see the planes on a clear unfogged day:

Hurricane (small plane) 4km. (others mods1.3km average)
B24 (big plane) 8.5km (others mods 5km average)
(I will not push this yet more because the main intention is to have a good gameplay balance. I guess that this could solve the blind crew problem but yet have a challenge gameplay!)

As this is also a ideal condition it's very rare also on the game. Normally, in game, you will have far lesser distances (80% of the time or more you will have fog). Even with fog, this means that when in TC you will not more be hit by a bomb from a plane that your blind crew did not saw some seconds before (average 20-30 sec before now)

I will release a updated "Stay Alert crew mod" with this fix inside probably tomorrow.

bigboywooly · 03-28-07, 01:38 PM

Nice one mate
Look forward to it

Sailor Steve · 03-28-07, 05:35 PM

YOW! Rubini rides to the rescue again!

Looking forward to it.

Spytrx · 04-16-07, 06:14 AM

guys - don't compare modern planes to the old bombers and fighters in noise levels.Modern planes are regulated how much nouse they can generate and use special materials to achieve that - things they didn't care about in the past. If you ever been to a flight show you know what I am saying...

there are simply too many factors (altitude, speed, number of engines, etc) to make an accurate model and I think the stock is a good compromise all around (I am not an expert by no means, but the visibility is more concerning than the noise)

Pablo · 04-16-07, 07:18 AM

Hi!

FWIW the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board considers 0.2 degrees the minimum angle for detecting an aircraft coming straight at you. See this article from Aviation Week and Space Technology. This corresponds to a distance of about 20 feet at a range of one mile under good seeing conditions, so you could see an on-coming B-24 (wingspan: 110 feet) at a range of about 5.5 miles (8-9 km) in perfect weather.

That being said, the U.S. Army air defense folks list a whole bunch of reasons (in this document) why real life detection ranges can be much shorter, including:

Aircraft size
Viewing aspect
Contrast with background
Visibility
Terrain masking (not much over the ocean)
Camouflage
Visual acuity of the observer
Search sector for watch crewmen (smaller sector = better detection chance)

IMHO the odds of hearing an aircraft over the sound of your own diesel engine exhaust (remember, the exhaust port is underneath the AA gun platform) are pretty small.

Short answer: "it depends"

Pablo

Rubini · 04-16-07, 07:54 AM

Thanks Pablo.

In the Stay Alert crew fix mod I adjusted the distances for this exact scenario:
In perfect conditions (clear unfogged day) the small airplanes will be detected 3km away and the big ones 8km away. But with fog (the majority of the time in game) this distance will be reduced for 2/3 or a half. This is yet far better than stock but not uber!

Don't forget that this is for 8km version, using the Stay Alert crew fix.

The 16 km have these values far large: crew detect a Hurricane 5km away in a fogged day!!! I guess that this is a bit uber ,no?

Henri II · 04-16-07, 09:07 AM

I'm not sure if this approach is possible or even wanted, but what I'd like to have, is that my watch crew/sonarman can see/hear the ships/planes at about the same distance that I as the player can see/hear them in various conditions. Going with realistic settings seems to be the obvious thing, but I'm not sure how that would work out in game, I wouldn't like contacts to be reported by the crew long before I can see them.

03-27-07, 01:36 PM	#1
Rubini Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: São Paulo Brazil Posts: 2,728 Downloads: 132 Uploads: 0	What is the average range that a crew could spot an Airplane in RL? I'm working on the blind crew for airplanes issue Someone have this info? What is the average range that a crew could spot an Airplane (an Hurricane) in RL, WWII era, good conditions? Will the crew listen its sound first?:hmm: Thanks for any advice! Rubini. __________________ One gamer's must-have mod is another gamer's waste of time. -Sailor Steve

03-28-07, 10:05 AM	#3
Rubini Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: São Paulo Brazil Posts: 2,728 Downloads: 132 Uploads: 0	Thanks Paajtor, I tried my entire afternoon yesterday on the net to find something more concrete. Only sparce references saying that a big plane on a clear day could be detected more than 10 km away without binoculars! With these few infos I made the airplane fix (B24 at 8km using binoculars on a clear day). Let's now await for the feedbacks after the release. Thanks again. __________________ One gamer's must-have mod is another gamer's waste of time. -Sailor Steve

03-28-07, 11:28 AM	#4
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	8 km is what, 5 miles? I live in a very large valley, and I can see planes heading into the airport from a lot further than that. That said, where I can see them from is a hillside, so I'm probably 500 feet above the valley floor. From sea level, 8 km sounds about right. The problem is, the eye detects movement before it sees real objects, so while you might detect a plane moving across your line of sight quickly, one moving directly toward you doesn't seem to be moving at all, so you might not recognize what you're seeing until it's far too late. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

03-28-07, 11:50 AM	#5
Letum Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: York - UK Posts: 6,079 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	It depends on hundreds of factors. On a clear day, looking away from the sun you can see the reflections on a planes wing at over 20km. On a clear night you can see the exhaust sparks from a plane at very long range. However, these conditions are very rare. If the conditions are poor the plane could literally be on top of you before you know about it. There is not real answer to the question, it is totally dependant on the conditions and crew alertness/skill. __________________

03-28-07, 12:20 PM	#7
von Zelda Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	question for Rubini Rubini, When will this increased airplane sighting be released? And will it be separate or an update to your Visual Hydrophone workaround Mod?

03-28-07, 11:54 AM	#6
cyclop_si Swabbie Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 9 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I do not have any idea about visual range for different airplanes, however I would like to make a note that is it big difference spoting jet aircraft due to contrail versus when you can hear it and there is no cntrail... and WWII aircraft did not produce any contrail... so be carefull not to set visual range to distant....

03-28-07, 12:37 PM	#8
Bill Nichols Master of Defense Join Date: Mar 2000 Posts: 1,502 Downloads: 125 Uploads: 0	Visual detection range is highly variable and depends on so many different things that giving a single number would be meaningless. Nonetheless, I did find this nugget: "For the maximum detection range ground-to-air values between 9 and 16 km ... were obtained." (Note that this is under idealized conditions) http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1975srth.rept.....H __________________ My Dangerous Waters website:

03-28-07, 01:34 PM	#9
Rubini Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: São Paulo Brazil Posts: 2,728 Downloads: 132 Uploads: 0	Many thanks to all you guys! Even knowing that a "magic" value is probably not so realistic we need one "number" to start the work on this issue!. I guess that the below settings are far better than the stock or others mods as an average distance to your crew start to see the planes on a clear unfogged day: Hurricane (small plane) 4km. (others mods1.3km average) B24 (big plane) 8.5km (others mods 5km average) (I will not push this yet more because the main intention is to have a good gameplay balance. I guess that this could solve the blind crew problem but yet have a challenge gameplay!) As this is also a ideal condition it's very rare also on the game. Normally, in game, you will have far lesser distances (80% of the time or more you will have fog). Even with fog, this means that when in TC you will not more be hit by a bomb from a plane that your blind crew did not saw some seconds before (average 20-30 sec before now) I will release a updated "Stay Alert crew mod" with this fix inside probably tomorrow. __________________ One gamer's must-have mod is another gamer's waste of time. -Sailor Steve Last edited by Rubini; 03-28-07 at 02:53 PM.

03-28-07, 01:38 PM	#10
bigboywooly Rear Admiral Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Swindon, England Posts: 10,151 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	Nice one mate Look forward to it __________________ My mediafire page http://www.mediafire.com/?11eoq19bq9r41

03-28-07, 05:35 PM	#11
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	YOW! Rubini rides to the rescue again! Looking forward to it. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

04-16-07, 06:14 AM	#12
Spytrx Medic Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Cornwall, UK Posts: 167 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	guys - don't compare modern planes to the old bombers and fighters in noise levels.Modern planes are regulated how much nouse they can generate and use special materials to achieve that - things they didn't care about in the past. If you ever been to a flight show you know what I am saying... there are simply too many factors (altitude, speed, number of engines, etc) to make an accurate model and I think the stock is a good compromise all around (I am not an expert by no means, but the visibility is more concerning than the noise)

04-16-07, 07:18 AM	#13
Pablo Commodore Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 641 Downloads: 168 Uploads: 0	Hi! FWIW the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board considers 0.2 degrees the minimum angle for detecting an aircraft coming straight at you. See this article from Aviation Week and Space Technology. This corresponds to a distance of about 20 feet at a range of one mile under good seeing conditions, so you could see an on-coming B-24 (wingspan: 110 feet) at a range of about 5.5 miles (8-9 km) in perfect weather. That being said, the U.S. Army air defense folks list a whole bunch of reasons (in this document) why real life detection ranges can be much shorter, including: Aircraft size Viewing aspect Contrast with background Visibility Terrain masking (not much over the ocean) Camouflage Visual acuity of the observer Search sector for watch crewmen (smaller sector = better detection chance) IMHO the odds of hearing an aircraft over the sound of your own diesel engine exhaust (remember, the exhaust port is underneath the AA gun platform) are pretty small. Short answer: "it depends" Pablo __________________ "...far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." - Theodore Roosevelt, speech before the Hamilton Club, Chicago, April 10, 1899

04-16-07, 07:54 AM	#14
Rubini Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: São Paulo Brazil Posts: 2,728 Downloads: 132 Uploads: 0	Thanks Pablo. In the Stay Alert crew fix mod I adjusted the distances for this exact scenario: In perfect conditions (clear unfogged day) the small airplanes will be detected 3km away and the big ones 8km away. But with fog (the majority of the time in game) this distance will be reduced for 2/3 or a half. This is yet far better than stock but not uber! Don't forget that this is for 8km version, using the Stay Alert crew fix. The 16 km have these values far large: crew detect a Hurricane 5km away in a fogged day!!! I guess that this is a bit uber ,no? __________________ One gamer's must-have mod is another gamer's waste of time. -Sailor Steve

04-16-07, 09:07 AM	#15
Henri II Sparky Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 156 Downloads: 47 Uploads: 0	I'm not sure if this approach is possible or even wanted, but what I'd like to have, is that my watch crew/sonarman can see/hear the ships/planes at about the same distance that I as the player can see/hear them in various conditions. Going with realistic settings seems to be the obvious thing, but I'm not sure how that would work out in game, I wouldn't like contacts to be reported by the crew long before I can see them.