[REL] FOTRS Ultimate Project

[propbeanie]

Originally Posted by s7rikeback

Update:

Left Midway at 8th December 1941
Sub class = Porpoise
patrol = Arrived at Truk 16th December.
Conditions = Very heavy storms.

No other problems found.

Give it time...

You probably have to wait for that 42a layer to load in March of 1942 before the interesting stuff happens, with the peak happening in the 42b layer, which goes to Septemper of 1943...

[CapnScurvy]

Well I've just spent most of the day trying to figure the Hydrophone out....the issue at hand is not hearing a ship when its within easy visible distance from the sub. I'm striking out!!

My tests are to have a warship (a Yubari CL) passing by a stationary sub. I put the same warship, traveling at 4 different speeds around the sub. This warship has a Maximum Speed of 34.8 kts in its .sim file. Here's the view of the Navigation Map, with the four targets showing, their positioning from the Sonarman's report and display on the map:



I've added the 4 targets speed to the map to keep track of which was doing what. All 4 within 3000 yards of the sub. I proceeded to go to the Hydrophone station to listen for myself. As usual, the only target that was audible by listening was the only target that was traveling greater than half its Maximum Speed...the one at the approximate 105 Relative Bearing:



The other three produce nothing to hear by the player. The AI crew hears them and gives you their position (all four are reported upon within the Message Text Box), unless the targets pick up their speed to match at least half the 34.8 max speed....you'll think there's something wrong with the game!!

Well yes, there IS something wrong with the game....but we can't do anything about it!! Least nothing short of making sure no target travels less than half its max speed.

I've looked at every possible angle.....
Data/cfg/sensors.cfg file
Data/Library/USSubParts/Sensors_sub_US.sim file
Data/Sea/NCL_Yubari/NCL_Yubari.dsd file
Data/Sound/sounds.wav files

Nothing changed. I had those files turned every which way you can....nothing changed. Except I know now how to prevent the AI from doing their job so well. But nothing different for the player. The only time I was able to hear the other three was when I changed the Maximum Speed to a lower setting. I got the 15kt ship to be heard when the Max Speed went to 28kts. I heard the 10kt target when I dropped the Max Speed to 18.

The only way to have this Hydrophone deafness overcome is to make sure the Mission files don't allow a ship to travel below half its Max Speed found in its .sim file.

Either that or we live with it.

[propbeanie]

We ~could~ probably do some in the ME with the ships and their set speeds, but there are a LOT of waypoints in there... Single merchants and SubHunter groups we could probably make sure of, and probably over half of the convoys, and maybe a good portion of the Task Forces for most of their trips, but invariably, there'll be someone who gets sunk 'cause "I couldn't ~hear~ the dude, man"...

[propbeanie]

OK, most of yesterday evening between other chores, editing the Terrain file around Truk Lagoon, ala the Carotio Truk Mod, then editing of all the layers that ply the waters there, and what came of it? Well, my first test was fine... other than an audio glitch. My 2nd test was also OK, but the audio glitch again. I cannot get the glitch consistently. Also, I was starting the test single mission at 0600, the time frame when a few of the others have encountered issues. You can't quite see things in the early morning light though, so I moved the time to 0715 hundred hours... Very strange. I'm still waiting on the video to finish uploading...

In the meantime, The date of this occurrence is April 27,1943. That's the 42b Layers. There are five Convoy groups that can run through Truk, and three Task Force groups. Plus a sub hunter group and a couple of coastal vessels are around... Merch group 001 has a mix of vessels totaling nine, including a transport, DE, DD and corvette. 023 is similar, as is 028, though 028 has 10 vessels. Then there is the two Fast Merchant groups that both go through there with ninie vessels each. Almost all of these have vessel spacing set to 700 meters, 2 columns. All told, in the approx 240 days of the 42b "cycle", there could be 38 of these groups out and running, which would work out to one every six days. The Task Force groups have more ships, with 001 having 28, 007 having 20, and 009 having 17. The 009 group has been edited by us previously for issues elsewhere (up along the Japanese Islands' coastline). It is not a suspect in this, since it has a CVE 100% of the time, and there's no carriers seen. All told, there could be 25 groups out and running, amounting to about one group every nine and a half days.

Doesn't sound like much, but some of these groups come into Truk and do a "Stop-and-Go" technique... This causes a traffic jam in the confined spaces of Truk Lagoon apparently - there's my video...



We're going to have to really look closely at that around Truk, because this ain't cool... - Interesting to have a DD broken in two, hanging mid-air and on fire... then there's the spotlight suspended also... The fun continues. This would go a long way to explaining the CTDs in the area... If you happen to wonder why there's no land masses close by, it's because of zooming around without benefit of a sub nearby. I couldn't get close this time, 'cause it would CTD...

[Rockin Robbins]

Attention Team Members

Fall of the Rising Sun Ultimate v0.56 Beta EN is now up in Area 51, featuring CapnScurvy's latest tweaks and an edit to the keyboard layout files. The 24 hour timer to public beta starts NOW!

[CapnScurvy]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

We ~could~ probably do some in the ME with the ships and their set speeds, but there are a LOT of waypoints in there... Single merchants and SubHunter groups we could probably make sure of, and probably over half of the convoys, and maybe a good portion of the Task Forces for most of their trips, but invariably, there'll be someone who gets sunk 'cause "I couldn't ~hear~ the dude, man"...

Yes, there are, but if I knew which Campaign files to start on I think I could make a dent in them. I just wouldn't want to step onto your toes if you're working in the same .mis file (like the ones you're going through with the Truk bottleneck).

Personally, I think I'd look at each ship's Max Speed figure first, to see if its reasonably accurate...and reasonable too. I did some checking, that Yubari was considered to have anywhere from 32 to 35 maximum speed (depending on what source you read), but its normal cruise speed could easily be less than that. We make a decision on what Max Speed to use, then make sure the craft doesn't list the speed between waypoints anything less than half.

I should point out, this does not mean the ship won't be heard if it drops below the set Speed= listed in the .mis file. It will be heard as expected, even if the ship is doing 2 knots. I found this out when I had that 20kt Yubari initial starting position going straight south 180 degrees, yet had the waypoint bearing at an angle from its start point. At the test mission start, it took the ship several minutes to correct for the change in direction, slowly building up speed as it changed bearing unto the end waypoint bearing. I could hear the ship just fine, below its set 20kt speed for the waypoint. Interestingly, I had two other Yubari CL's with their start bearing matching the direction of travel......the mission had them travelling at their set speed immediately after the mission start. One way, POOF, the ship is doing its set speed within seconds of the spawn. The other, it took minutes for it to come up to speed while it made the direction change.

This means circumstances like running in a slower convoy, or direction changes, or avoidance procedures will not effect a ships ability to be heard through manual hydrophone use.

If the Speed= for the ship (in its .mis file) is at least half its Max Speed= (from its .sim file) it will be heard.....no matter what speed it may end up traveling due to outside influences. We just need to keep this in mind when we make missions, or correct existing missions within FOTRS Ultimate.

================

Propbeanie, regarding the Truk video.......What a cluster puck!! That's a MESS!! The entire Japanese Naval arsenal looks like has decided to get together for a pow wow. My bottom line feelings are to make sure their lane of travel isn't restricted; eliminate most of them; make sure they exit the game on Waypoint End.

[propbeanie]

Well, I'll be going through all the files again, and probably having cdrsubron7 double-check my work. If I can get a "method from the madness", we could divvy-up and all use the same procedure. I tried to do a "survey" of the ship's max speeds, but using S3Ditor for that can be an exercise in futility. I might see if J-G can think of a script for that... we just want the ships Class= and MaxSpeed= fields... I think...

My only issue with fixing it with changing speeds "in the field" ("ocean"??), is that a convoy at 9 knots with DD capable of 30+ knots, and you "hear" the convoy, but not the DD...

Originally Posted by CapnScurvy

It will be heard as expected, even if the ship is doing 2 knots. I found this out when I had that 20kt Yubari initial starting position going straight south 180 degrees, yet had the waypoint bearing at an angle from its start point. At the test mission start, it took the ship several minutes to correct for the change in direction, slowly building up speed as it changed bearing unto the end waypoint bearing. I could hear the ship just fine, below its set 20kt speed for the waypoint.

Now, being the artist that I am (ahem), I'll use the keyboard slash & pipe keys to try to illustrate what I think I'm understanding:

        ship set @ 212 degrees //
                              //             in other words, you'd set the 
                             //              vessel on the sea, but hadn't
              waypoint      o                hit the "Head To Waypoint"
          set direction=   ||                so it had to "turn" prior to
                           ||                getting itself up to speed?
                           ||
                           ||
                           ||
                           v

If I'm correct in my understanding, why would it be "hearable" under those circumstances, and yet the others take off right away "at speed"... ??
.

[J0313]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

Well, I'll be going through all the files again, and probably having cdrsubron7 double-check my work. If I can get a "method from the madness", we could divvy-up and all use the same procedure. I tried to do a "survey" of the ship's max speeds, but using S3Ditor for that can be an exercise in futility. I might see if J-G can think of a script for that... we just want the ships Class= and MaxSpeed= fields... I think...

My only issue with fixing it with changing speeds "in the field" ("ocean"??), is that a convoy at 9 knots with DD capable of 30+ knots, and you "hear" the convoy, but not the DD...



Now, being the artist that I am (ahem), I'll use the keyboard slash & pipe keys to try to illustrate what I think I'm understanding:

        ship set @ 212 degrees //
                              //             in other words, you'd set the 
                             //              vessel on the sea, but hadn't
              waypoint      o                hit the "Head To Waypoint"
          set direction=   ||                so it had to "turn" prior to
                           ||                getting itself up to speed?
                           ||
                           ||
                           ||
                           v

If I'm correct in my understanding, why would it be "hearable" under those circumstances, and yet the others take off right away "at speed"... ??
.

Ever heard of, " Ship Data Fetcher ", by Gutted Harwell? That might prove to be useful.

[CapnScurvy]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

My only issue with fixing it with changing speeds "in the field" ("ocean"??), is that a convoy at 9 knots with DD capable of 30+ knots, and you "hear" the convoy, but not the DD...

I can run a test convoy to see, but as memory serves me that DD that has a Max Speed at 30kts in the .sim file will have no problem in being heard as it travels the "convoy" speed of 9kts. As I said, once the Speed of the DD is set in the .mis file (above half its Max Speed) it can go down to 1 knot and still be heard....the convoy speed its protecting, over-rides the ships specific set Speed. As the DD travels to follow the convoy, it will be heard. AND, things like ship avoidance; turning..... that slows down the ship; The ship accelerating from a stopped position, has no effect on the Hydrophone....as long as its .mis speed for the specific ship is at least half its Max Speed rating.

Now, being the artist that I am (ahem), I'll use the keyboard slash & pipe keys to try to illustrate what I think I'm understanding:

        ship set @ 212 degrees //
                              //             in other words, you'd set the 
                             //              vessel on the sea, but hadn't
              waypoint      o                hit the "Head To Waypoint"
          set direction=   ||                so it had to "turn" prior to
                           ||                getting itself up to speed?
                           ||
                           ||
                           ||
                           v

If I'm correct in my understanding, why would it be "hearable" under those circumstances, and yet the others take off right away "at speed"... ??
.

Not being the artist that I am, here's a picture of what I'm talking about:




This was my original test mission set up. The Yubari in question (that can be heard without fail) was heading south 180 degrees at the start. Notice my waypoint is angled several degrees to the ships starboard side. When the game started the mission, that Yubari was only doing 2kts while it struggled to turn to set itself towards the waypoint end. During this time, it was the only Yubari that could be heard by manual Hydrophone use. Even though all four were picked up by the AI Sonarman.

I decided to test it again, this time I used the Mission Editor to "Set Position to Waypoint" function....which turned the ship to the direction of the waypoint automatically, then played the test mission in-game:



Notice the time, its less than one minute from when the test mission started (it started at 12 noon). The Yubari is already traveling at 20kts without an acceleration lag required. That just points to me that all ships should have their start position pointed in the same way as the waypoint, so as not get run over by another ship that's close behind...that doesn't have this acceleration lag.

[DicheBach]

Originally Posted by Larrywb57

Hey!
Welcome to subsim! What does FORTS do? Well, sorry I don't have time to cover it all. But one thing for sure is that it is a work in progress. You can see what happens when a great group of people that have talent and they work together to solve problems that even the designers of the game didn't complete. They have taken a mod and in remembering his work that he wasn't' able to complete, to become one of the best, if not the best mod for SH4! And when they are done with the core mod, you will be able to add to this mod other parts that are compatible with it so you don't have to worry about mod soup. And all the different ships' more than any other mod! Just a couple of things on top of my head.

I think I must not have the thing installed right. My game doesn't seem ANY different than vanilla. Ah well. I'm far enough along with this career, I'll probably hold of on trouble shooting it.

Originally Posted by torpedobait

I get that (startling) roar occasionally too. Unfortunately I never noted when or where. That's not much help to you except to know that it is not confined to one machine or setup.

I just got the "roar" due west of Truk, game time/date, 00:04 hrs, Jan 12, 1943, map location 150- 24'E X 7-13'N right after radar notification of ship(s) which spawned near 151-33'E X 7- 09'N at 00:12. Eight(8) ships spawned tracking WSW, followed at 00:28 by 3 more also tracking WSW. My mission from Midway started Jan, 1943 to go to East of Kyushu but I wanted to see whats going on at Truk so I'm currently around 151-25'E X 7- 11'N going SW shadowing this convoy.
I agree with it not being confined to a machine or setup as I run on Mac as a Wine app similar to RR's running on Linux as a Wine app. I have Saves shortly before and after the noise so I probably can reproduce if it will help.

[Lt commander lare]

Cant wait for the new Beta thanks for all your hard work.

[propbeanie]

Originally Posted by jldjs

I just got the "roar" due west of Truk, game time/date, 00:04 hrs, Jan 12, 1943, map location 150- 24'E X 7-13'N right after radar notification of ship(s) which spawned near 151-33'E X 7- 09'N at 00:12. Eight(8) ships spawned tracking WSW, followed at 00:28 by 3 more also tracking WSW. My mission from Midway started Jan, 1943 to go to East of Kyushu but I wanted to see whats going on at Truk so I'm currently around 151-25'E X 7- 11'N going SW shadowing this convoy.
I agree with it not being confined to a machine or setup as I run on Mac as a Wine app similar to RR's running on Linux as a Wine app. I have Saves shortly before and after the noise so I probably can reproduce if it will help.

~VERY~ helpful, on more than one aspect... a Wine machine... audio issue and then you see the ships... hmmmm... thank you jldjs... This again, is the 42b layer, which does seem to be the worst in the Truk area, though I've gotten that roar while in the 42a layers also...

[propbeanie]

Originally Posted by DicheBach

I think I must not have the thing installed right. My game doesn't seem ANY different than vanilla. Ah well. I'm far enough along with this career, I'll probably hold of on trouble shooting it.

Consult the JSGME documentation. You have to be sure you're getting things in the correct places before you go to "activating" the mod...

[propbeanie]

Originally Posted by CapnScurvy

...
Not being the artist that I am, here's a picture of what I'm talking about:

... pik ...

...

See, that's what my picture had...

I wonder though Capn, if a vessel starts out a origination at a low speed, say 3 knots from origination to WayPoint 1, and let's set WayPoint one 2000 meters away, then increase the speed to whatever is desired, say 2500 meters away, and then the speed varies as the vessel / group journeys, are they then "heard" the whole trip?... It'd be a lot easier to do that, since it's much easier to deal with the RGG / Unit icon in the ME...