[REL] FOTRS Ultimate Project

[CapnScurvy]

Originally Posted by merc4ulfate

I would love to see it disabled...……….(regarding the subs Sonar man use of sonar)

Well, here's the problem with trying to do something with the games hard coded files.....we don't have access to them. Least we don't legally, nor do I have the capability to open up the game to see what's inside. I don't have access to file formats that could open up the game, or have the knowledge to know what I'm really looking at? When I say "it is what it is" it's because there's no way I can change the basic working of the game. I wish I could, I've seen dozens of things that "should have/could have" been fixed with further patches from Ubisoft. But, it was left alone after their 5th attempt.....one we had to pay extra for, god bless their souls!!

Things like the subs Sonar man not having issues with the enemy detecting his scanning, or the Hydrophone not picking up engine sounds when the ship units drop below a certain speed level. Getting upgrades when they are offered, or having correct aspect ratios with the various resolutions which allow a visual screen to measure accurately.....the very thing necessary to have when using Manual Targeting. Even the German side of things isn't correct (considering SH4 is a "kissing cousin" of SHIII), the German Radar only reads in meters on it's Digital Readout, even when you set the Optional measurement to Imperial?!? Some things will never be corrected because we don't have access to the hard coded files that govern these behaviors.

We can change something from doing one task to another, making it seem like we've done a great new game addition. But all we've ever done is masked over a working part of the game and made it into something else that seems new. The game limitations are still with us. A rotten egg is still a rotten egg, no matter how we can disguise it!

[propbeanie]

Originally Posted by Immelmann

A Gar. The USS Grampus out of Fremantle. You know, the submersible freighter. Roughly 112 nm due north of Manokwari, West Papua, New Guinea. The date is the tough part for me. I was surprised by the game crashing and unable to make note of the game date. So, I reloaded my last save and verified the date as September 4th, 1943. I then went back and reviewed the stream. It looks to me like 3 days after my last save made SW of Davao, Phillipines. I might be in error, but I think the date of the CTD is September 7th, 1943. Time of day easily seen as 14:15 hours just before the game crash. If unable to find it on the 7th then look 24 or even 48 hours forward, not backward from the 7th. I'm positive at least 3 days elapsed from my last save at the point.

As far as contacts, the only contact I had at the beginning of the time compression was the Ada Maru Freighter on a WNW course. I was in TC trying to quickly get him closer to me so I could set up a good firing solution. I think maybe another ship, or more likely an airplane(s), tried to load in during time compression and that caused the crash? There is a Japanese airfield not far away to the WSW.

I have a two PC streaming setup, so my gaming PC has zero overhead related to streaming. All my gaming computer does is send video out over HDMI at 1920 x 1080 60hz and audio out over a Digital Optical SPDIF Audio Cable.

Yes the periscope shot at the start of the clip was from the game and NOT under time compression. That is what flank speed (9 knots) on batteries looks like. It probably gave the impression of greater speed (flying across the screen) because I was using the free camera from a distance with the view zoomed in by the mouse wheel.

Looking into it. Here's where I'm understanding you are:



It's kind of difficult to tell where that "180.xx km" line ends, but it's right in the middle of the traffic lane for the convoys east & west. I highlighted that one traffic route for the "43a_Jap_Merchants_026", because that is probably what you encountered with the Ada Maru, since that is the only westbound merchant out there. The 027 group starting above it hungs the shore. CoastalTraffic_116 is a single sampan that will also stay close to shore. There could be all sorts of Convoys, with sizes ranging from 4 to 8 ships, not counting escorts, by the time September of 1943 comes along. Also, the 43a layer starts on September 1st, 1943, so some of the 42b layer files would still be running also. I merged the layers, and have 'run' the simulation 3 times thus far, and I could not get the Merchant group to come out on the 7th, though the "odds" say that it will... but on the 5th (as a substitute), things look like this:



The three times of running the scenario so far leaves me with a blank area where you were, and nothing close. So it was either the Ada Maru, or an airplane (maybe). Anyway, I'll dig deeper, but I'm pretty sure we have the area and the origination of the merchant you saw... maybe?

[Michael Wood]

Originally Posted by CapnScurvy

Well, here's the problem with trying to do something with the games hard coded files.....we don't have access to them. Least we don't legally, nor do I have the capability to open up the game to see what's inside. I don't have access to file formats that could open up the game, or have the knowledge to know what I'm really looking at? When I say "it is what it is" it's because there's no way I can change the basic working of the game. I wish I could, I've seen dozens of things that "should have/could have" been fixed with further patches from Ubisoft. But, it was left alone after their 5th attempt.....one we had to pay extra for, god bless their souls!!

Things like the subs Sonar man not having issues with the enemy detecting his scanning, or the Hydrophone not picking up engine sounds when the ship units drop below a certain speed level. Getting upgrades when they are offered, or having correct aspect ratios with the various resolutions which allow a visual screen to measure accurately.....the very thing necessary to have when using Manual Targeting. Even the German side of things isn't correct (considering SH4 is a "kissing cousin" of SHIII), the German Radar only reads in meters on it's Digital Readout, even when you set the Optional measurement to Imperial?!? Some things will never be corrected because we don't have access to the hard coded files that govern these behaviors.

We can change something from doing one task to another, making it seem like we've done a great new game addition. But all we've ever done is masked over a working part of the game and made it into something else that seems new. The game limitations are still with us. A rotten egg is still a rotten egg, no matter how we can disguise it!

It has been my understanding that active sonar is only used when the player pings or asks for range to target to a selected target.

In stock and TMO, the S-18 class boats have the passive sonar on the deck. This means that passive sonar does not work on the surface. There are no sonar reports and no sonar lines on the map. The player must dive, for the passive sonar to function.

If active sonar was working on the surface in the way you define, stock and TMO would give sonar lines and the sonar operator would make sonar reports when an S-18 class boat was on the surface.

You have S-18 class boats operating passive sonar in the same way passive sonar works on fleet boats in other iterations and you call it "active sonar".

But, it's your mod.

[Immelmann]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

Anyway, I'll dig deeper, but I'm pretty sure we have the area and the origination of the merchant you saw... maybe?

Yes it looks like you are in the correct area. The Ada Maru was all alone, one ship only.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Michael Wood

You have S-18 class boats operating passive sonar in the same way passive sonar works on fleet boats in other iterations and you call it "active sonar".

But, it's your mod.

Here, I'll fix that for you: You have UBI has S-18 class boats operating passive sonar in the same way passive sonar works on fleet boats in other iterations and you call it "active sonar".

But, it's your mod Ubi's game.

[Michael Wood]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Here, I'll fix that for you: You have UBI has S-18 class boats operating passive sonar in the same way passive sonar works on fleet boats in other iterations and you call it "active sonar".

But, it's your mod Ubi's game.

Okay. In stock and TMO, Ubi did not give S-18 class boats use of sonar on the surface, something they never had in reality. In FOTRS, Ubi changed their mind and gave S-18 class boats use of sonar on the surface, something they never had in reality. Sad.

It would be ever so nice, if Ubi decided to change back to the old way of handling sonar and force S-18 class boats to submerge before using sonar, since, as the Ubi game developers knew in stock and modders knew in TMO, no S-18 class boat or any submarine has ever or would ever sail about broadcasting their location with constant pinging.

[propbeanie]

Originally Posted by Immelmann

Yes it looks like you are in the correct area. The Ada Maru was all alone, one ship only.

Thank you! ... and definitely an Ada Maru? Could you tell if it was riding "high" in the water, or anything unusual about it?

[CapnScurvy]

Originally Posted by Michael Wood

Okay. In stock and TMO, Ubi did not give S-18 class boats use of sonar on the surface, something they never had in reality. In FOTRS, Ubi changed their mind and gave S-18 class boats use of sonar on the surface, something they never had in reality. Sad.

"In stock and TMO, Ubi did not give S-18 class boats use of sonar on the surface...."

That's not true. In Stock, the S-18 get's Sonar when on the surface!

A simple test is to run the Stock game Single Mission "Battle of Balikpapan". It uses the S-18. Here's an image of the game map just after making visual contact with some of the escorts:



Notice the Depth Dial, it reads 17ft...….the S-18 is surfaced. Yet, not only are we picking up two Visual targets, but one Sound contact at 8 degrees, Long Range. After surfacing the boat at 4:19, I'm still picking up the Sonar contact at 4:22.

Get your facts straight before claiming something that's inaccurate. I'm more than happy to check.

[Michael Wood]

Originally Posted by CapnScurvy

"In stock and TMO, Ubi did not give S-18 class boats use of sonar on the surface...."

That's not true. In Stock, the S-18 get's Sonar when on the surface!

A simple test is to run the Stock game Single Mission "Battle of Balikpapan". It uses the S-18. Here's an image of the game map just after making visual contact with some of the escorts:

Notice the Depth Dial, it reads 17ft...….the S-18 is surfaced. Yet, not only are we picking up two Visual targets, but one Sound contact at 8 degrees, Long Range. After surfacing the boat at 4:19, I'm still picking up the Sonar contact at 4:22.

Get your facts straight before claiming something that's inaccurate. I'm more than happy to check.

Something is amiss. I ran that exact test this morning before I posted and the sonar lines did not appear for unspotted ships, until I submerged.

I just reran the test and the lines do not appear on the map for unspotted ships, until I submerged.

It appears my stock installation differs from yours. Given the results of your test, your arguments all make perfect sense. Thanks. I withdraw my complaint.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Michael Wood

Okay. In stock and TMO, Ubi did not give S-18 class boats use of sonar on the surface, something they never had in reality. In FOTRS, Ubi changed their mind and gave S-18 class boats use of sonar on the surface, something they never had in reality. Sad.

It would be ever so nice, if Ubi decided to change back to the old way of handling sonar and force S-18 class boats to submerge before using sonar, since, as the Ubi game developers knew in stock and modders knew in TMO, no S-18 class boat or any submarine has ever or would ever sail about broadcasting their location with constant pinging.

The sonar operator emits no pings. The enemy doesn't hear his "active sonar" at all. He is just a game cheat, able to look at the game's electronic tally sheet of what's where and put them on your sonar plot.

There is also a false idea that if you run your active sonar or the radar it tells the enemy where you are. That's just not true at all. When Joe Enright took the Archerfish against Shimano, he purposely left his radar on. And he wasn't stupid.

With your active sonar and radar, you know the position, identity (for radar), course and speed of all targets in range. But what do they know about you? They only know that somebody somewhere out there is pinging or running a radar set. That's a slam dunk advantage to you!

Not only that, but in the real war, Enright's active radar put pressure on the Japanese Admiral. "Who in their right mind would boldly run their radar full time (he had radar detectors)? Then he promptly overthought the situation into "there must be a whole fleet of submarines out there and the pinging is from their leader. I better start zigging."

Previously on a course too fast to catch, and on a course taking Shimano away so that Archerfish could only have waved goodbye, Shimano slowed and zigged.....right across the bow of Archerfish. The rest is history.

Letting them know someone bad and dangerous is out there in exchange for knowing every detail of your enemy's actions is a bargain and a deal I'll take every time. No, the game doesn't act like a human opponent would, but you still have a vast advantage.

[Michael Wood]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

The sonar operator emits no pings. The enemy doesn't hear his "active sonar" at all. He is just a game cheat, able to look at the game's electronic tally sheet of what's where and put them on your sonar plot.

There is also a false idea that if you run your active sonar or the radar it tells the enemy where you are. That's just not true at all. When Joe Enright took the Archerfish against Shimano, he purposely left his radar on. And he wasn't stupid.

With your active sonar and radar, you know the position, identity (for radar), course and speed of all targets in range. But what do they know about you? They only know that somebody somewhere out there is pinging or running a radar set. That's a slam dunk advantage to you!

Not only that, but in the real war, Enright's active radar put pressure on the Japanese Admiral. "Who in their right mind would boldly run their radar full time (he had radar detectors)? Then he promptly overthought the situation into "there must be a whole fleet of submarines out there and the pinging is from their leader. I better start zigging."

Previously on a course too fast to catch, and on a course taking Shimano away so that Archerfish could only have waved goodbye, Shimano slowed and zigged.....right across the bow of Archerfish. The rest is history.

Letting them know someone bad and dangerous is out there in exchange for knowing every detail of your enemy's actions is a bargain and a deal I'll take every time. No, the game doesn't act like a human opponent would, but you still have a vast advantage.

Okay.

[propbeanie]

Originally Posted by Immelmann

Yes it looks like you are in the correct area. The Ada Maru was all alone, one ship only.

For the life of me, unless I add the Ada Maru to the game on the 7th, I can't get that Merchant RGG to spawn me one on the 7th September, 1943. I can get them on the 5th, which insinuates (since the group repeats every 48 hours), that I should get one on the 7th about 1/2 the time... Oh well. I have done a Single Mission with just the game's campaign layers, and encountered an Ada Maru on the 5th. I have also done several versions of a Single Mission with the Ada Maru on the 7th. In all the cases, the results are similar to this:

4th torpedo hitting



Broke its back



Both ends sink at the same time, as usual for the game



No damage model amiss that I could see, all looks well. One time, after sinking an Ada Maru, I was basically swarmed with airplanes when I stayed in the same general area. Quite pesky, but again, no issue. I do have a campaign Save of the area early on the 5th that I'll keep re-loading every once in a while and I'll try to get a similar situation to what you had.

[merc4ulfate]

Originally Posted by CapnScurvy

Well, here's the problem with trying to do something with the games hard coded files.....we don't have access to them. Least we don't legally, nor do I have the capability to open up the game to see what's inside. I don't have access to file formats that could open up the game, or have the knowledge to know what I'm really looking at? When I say "it is what it is" it's because there's no way I can change the basic working of the game. I wish I could, I've seen dozens of things that "should have/could have" been fixed with further patches from Ubisoft. But, it was left alone after their 5th attempt.....one we had to pay extra for, god bless their souls!!

Things like the subs Sonar man not having issues with the enemy detecting his scanning, or the Hydrophone not picking up engine sounds when the ship units drop below a certain speed level. Getting upgrades when they are offered, or having correct aspect ratios with the various resolutions which allow a visual screen to measure accurately.....the very thing necessary to have when using Manual Targeting. Even the German side of things isn't correct (considering SH4 is a "kissing cousin" of SHIII), the German Radar only reads in meters on it's Digital Readout, even when you set the Optional measurement to Imperial?!? Some things will never be corrected because we don't have access to the hard coded files that govern these behaviors.

We can change something from doing one task to another, making it seem like we've done a great new game addition. But all we've ever done is masked over a working part of the game and made it into something else that seems new. The game limitations are still with us. A rotten egg is still a rotten egg, no matter how we can disguise it!

I totally understand. I think what the modders have done with this game is wonderful. Certainly there are limitations that may never be exceeded but what you all have done I find exemplary and commendable.

As an end user I much appreciate what all of you have done to continue the game play and make it more enjoyable for everyone.

[merc4ulfate]

Originally Posted by Michael Wood

Something is amiss. I ran that exact test this morning before I posted and the sonar lines did not appear for unspotted ships, until I submerged.

I just reran the test and the lines do not appear on the map for unspotted ships, until I submerged.

It appears my stock installation differs from yours. Given the results of your test, your arguments all make perfect sense. Thanks. I withdraw my complaint.

Was it 100%, deleted old files, clean installation?

[Michael Wood]

Originally Posted by merc4ulfate

Was it 100%, deleted old files, clean installation?

Purchased and downloaded game. Installed, applied 1.4 and 1.5 patch. Applied U-Boat Missions. Forgot where game was purchased. Computer crashed. Bought new computer and store copied files over. They did not copy installation files. Since then, have installed many mods and mega-mods by making a copy of installed game and applying to that copy, so have dozen copies of game. Stock game may be corrupted. Don't know. Am going to stop testing, since tests are obviously invalid. Thanks. Bye.