[REL] FOTRS Ultimate Project

[CapnScurvy]

Originally Posted by kcoun

It's been awhile since the last update .. possible to get an idea what features / fixes might be forthcoming ? Thank you.

Obviously, as a couple of posts ago show, the next update will contain AI Subs. These subs will have firing torpedoes, which will make the player vulnerable to an increased threat, worthy of taking extra precautions!

As was historically accurate, 4 of the Japanese AI Subs will also carry a Scout Plane, which will be spawned in the usually manner as any other "carrier". The "Pete" Floatplane will carry bombs also worthy of extra care for the player. This Scout Floatplane capability will also be include on several Battleships, Heavy and Light Cruisers, for all sides, to follow historical accurate capabilities/functions.

A "fix" has been made to the ability of having the Weapons Officer call out the phrase "Firing at will" when commanded to do so (per this recent request).

Updates to Harbor Traffic, and Campaign Missions will be prominent too.

Newly added ship units will include the Daihatsu Landing Craft pack, and the Shinshu Maru Japanese Landing Ship, from its creator ZUIKAKU2604. Additional ships are being worked on from other team members.

A dozen other small "fixes" will be introduced as well.

Adding working AI Torpedoes has opened up another avenue for modification.....surface ships firing torpedoes at enemy targets along with their Deck Gun inventory. The following images show a test mission of mine having a Japanese Hatsuharu Destroyer positioned off from three stationary American Freighters, with an American PT boat approaching the Destroyer. My task was to determine the correct firing "lead" angle of the Torpedoes from both the DD and PT boat, to allow for a reasonable percentage of "hits" to a moving target. Although in this test, only the PT boat is moving. Past results have proven a 50% hit rate in torpedo accuracy with moving units. I have determined this "lead" angle is 4 degrees and 7 degrees, at distances of up to 1400 yards creates the 50% hit results, at most possible speeds.

As one may suspect, this test mission has an 80% hit percentage (considering the Destroyer and Freighters are stationary), but it was fun to watch the PT boat and other mechanics of the weapons.

Here's a torpedo from the Hatsuharu being dropped into the water:



Here's two more:



Torpedoes away:



The PT boat comes into range of the Destroyer (1400 yards) and starts its attack:



With the Destroyer firing torpedoes in both directions (at both Freighters and PT boat), you end up with both attacking units being destroyed:



The Freighters outcome are no better:



By the time all torpedoes have found their mark, the only unit left to tell-the-tail is the players sub, just outside of harms way.

The AI Torpedoes will have an impact on how you will approach gameplay. These torpedoes can be avoided by luck, and the ability of the player to out maneuver them. Your best tactic will be to go deeper than the torpedoes draft. A worthy addition to the game for Fotrs Ultimate.

[MADLOU]

Amazing work! I cant wait for the update!

[torpedobait]

Originally Posted by CapnScurvy

Obviously, as a couple of posts ago show, the next update will contain AI Subs. These subs will have firing torpedoes, which will make the player vulnerable to an increased threat, worthy of taking extra precautions!

As was historically accurate, 4 of the Japanese AI Subs will also carry a Scout Plane, which will be spawned in the usually manner as any other "carrier". The "Pete" Floatplane will carry bombs also worthy of extra care for the player. This Scout Floatplane capability will also be include on several Battleships, Heavy and Light Cruisers, for all sides, to follow historical accurate capabilities/functions.

A "fix" has been made to the ability of having the Weapons Officer call out the phrase "Firing at will" when commanded to do so (per this recent request).

Updates to Harbor Traffic, and Campaign Missions will be prominent too.

Newly added ship units will include the Daihatsu Landing Craft pack, and the Shinshu Maru Japanese Landing Ship, from its creator ZUIKAKU2604. Additional ships are being worked on from other team members.

A dozen other small "fixes" will be introduced as well.

Adding working AI Torpedoes has opened up another avenue for modification.....surface ships firing torpedoes at enemy targets along with their Deck Gun inventory.

The AI Torpedoes will have an impact on how you will approach gameplay. A worthy addition to the game for Fotrs Ultimate.

Thanks for the "fix" to the "Firing At Will" command acknowledgement.
I must tell you and the team that the new AI Torpedo addition will be possibly the greatest realism Mod feature to date. I am SO looking forward to giving it a shot! This appears to be way beyond expectations. Thank you, and the entire FOTARSU team. Can't wait!

[CapnScurvy]

Originally Posted by torpedobait

Thanks for the "fix" to the "Firing At Will" command acknowledgement.
I must tell you and the team that the new AI Torpedo addition will be possibly the greatest realism Mod feature to date.

You're welcome! I was able to try shortning the "Yes Sir" phrase by two seconds and found the additional Weapons Officer phrase of "Fire at Will" or the reverse command "Hold your Fire" (or whatever it was) returned to be heard. The length of the original fix was too long for additional phrase's to be heard. Glad it worked!!

Yes, I think the torpedoes are going to be a game changer.........in that you won't be able to take for granted running up onto a Task Force, or a convoy escort and be able to pick off the warships without ducking the possible torpedoes they carry. Although, many American destroyers did not carry torpedo firing capabilities, the Japanese did. There are some Light and Heavy Cruisers that did also. I'll be having them with a limited supply of torpedoes, so if your a black jack card counter, you may be able to count the torpedoes and know when its less risky to get close.

This may be the greatest "new" requirement you'll find with the use of the AI Torpedoes........ trying to get close to a target that has torpedoes is going to be at your own peril! Making longer than usual firing solutions may be what you'll find required on attacks!? No more stick it in the gut and fire the trigger kind of game play!! Unless there are no warships with the targets.

CapnScurvy: Could FOTRSU has a complete OTC? Really I miss it. The actual configuration seems to me more a MaxOptics than the awesome OTC.

Many thanks for all the job!

Fitzcarraldo

Hi Fitzcarraldo, my intention is to do just that! There are ship heights that are off by dozens of feet.......using manual targeting is pure guesswork. Those that only play with auto targeting never see how inaccurate the game is. I plan to make a better Range Dial, and other enhancements.

However, my next project is to look at the ship physics for acceleration/engine power. I've found this area is where a ship won't be heard by the players Hydrophones due to the low engine power/rpms when the ship travels at low speeds.....usually anything less than 9 kts. I've found by increasing engine power, and increasing drag will give you better results with speeds as low as 4 kts being heard, and acceleration is more natural than the jack rabbit starts we've all seen from some of the warships. I want to spend some time on this before adding a more accurate manual targeting firing solution.

[J0313]

Well the AI torpedo thing is good. You need to be careful with the effect on playability. There weren't any instances of Japanese warships firing torpedoes at submerged sub's that I know of and that will effect playability as well as historical accuracy in regards to Japanese abilities. Maybe you should think about this as an add on. I for one don't want to worry about being detected by an escort then having to worry about getting inundated with long lances buzzing around everywhere.

[propbeanie]

They did "buzz about everywhere" though, but usually at US heavy cruisers ... - but yes, this is one of the reasons for "beta". We'll see how it "plays" with all of the testers, and go from there.

[CapnScurvy]

Originally Posted by J0313

Well the AI torpedo thing is good. You need to be careful with the effect on playability. There weren't any instances of Japanese warships firing torpedoes at submerged sub's that I know of and that will effect playability as well as historical accuracy in regards to Japanese abilities. Maybe you should think about this as an add on. I for one don't want to worry about being detected by an escort then having to worry about getting inundated with long lances buzzing around everywhere.

Hold your horses when you want to bring up "historically accurate" game play!?

If we want to do that, you would find most merchant ships seen in the Pacific were single or double merchants struggling by themselves to get between point A to B. Players who have come from SHIII have the idea that merchants traveled in convoys with warship escort for protection!! In the Pacific, this was seldom the case. You've been spoiled to think this is how the war progressed on all fronts.

Merchant freighters were thought to be the bottom of the barrel when it came to crew quality, protection needs, or any other consideration from the Japanese brass. The Japanese Military even looked at the smaller warships (Patrol Boats, Destroyers) as subpar to the needs and wants of the larger warships (Carriers, Battleships, Cruisers). I say "military" because the Navy was only a subpart of the military high command. Many times, specific area commanders were Army Generals who had the Navy answering to them! A lowly merchant (or group of them) who asked for Naval support had to go through the area commander (usually Army) for allowing such protection. He had no desire to "waste" recourses on such trivial reasons....and usually didn't. And, if you went from one area sector of command to another (which you did when traveling from say, Indonesia to Japan), you had to ask "that" commander for the same protection. He would "consider" your necessary need and could come to a different conclusion. Merchants towards the end of the war began to convoy up, but having support from escorts was a luxury they seldom got.

Much like every player I've every heard of using non historical practices to play the game (like time compression!), if we actually followed the true engagement of history the game wouldn't be played for more than a couple of hours and declared B O R I N G !! What challenge is there to sneak up on a single merchant with a couple of 50 caliber guns for defense? Lets start shooting fish in a barrel?!

Sorry, but the idea of torpedoes firing at subs is just as plausible as traveling from Pearl to the Marshall Islands in just 5 real time minutes.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by CapnScurvy

Hold your horses when you want to bring up "historically accurate" game play!?

In the words of Spock, slightly altered for the situation, "Historically accurate is a little bird which sits on your shoulder and tells lies."

No simulation will ever be historically accurate. History is the chaotic dance between adversaries with unlimited ability to act, react, innovate, stagnate, attack and defend. If we were to rewind the clock to December 7, 1941, the entire war would unfold differently. Is history "historically accurate?" No, it's just what happened to happen that time around. If we merely repeat the events, we are not historically accurate at all.

Every attempt to make any simulation "historically accurate" will result in comedy. If those in favor of historical accuracy were to have their way we would be reduced to watching a movie, not playing a simulation.

The grossest "unhistoricity" (hey I made up a word!) of the game is the way we tend to play the game. We extend cruises, reloading several times, when it was never done. We get 50,000 tons in a cruise and think we didn't do so well. Why can we rack up unhistorical tonnage when we're up against mostly escorted merchants? It's because we don't fear the enemy. The real submariners feared the Japanese ability to unleash torpedoes from just about any warship with incredible range and unknown accuracy. They spent a lot of time looking for torpedo tracks. We spend none, because we know the historical truth that Japanese warship torpedoes weren't used against individual targets very often, but against distant groups of ships in a statistical aiming fashion.

However, the real submariner behaved as though those torpedoes could at any times be accurately aimed at them from immense distances. That mindset limited their scores. It will also limit ours before our esteemed Capn is done!

[propbeanie]

Was it SH1 (or am I thinking of the likes of The Hunt for Red October??) where they had an "Incoming Torpedoes, sir!" alarm statement from the sonarman?...

[Hitman]

No such thing in SH1 AFAIK, though you get an anxious "Conn, sonar, torpedo in the water!" message in Sonalyst sims (688i, Dangerous Waters)

[CapnScurvy]

Originally Posted by Hitman

No such thing in SH1 AFAIK, though you get an anxious "Conn, sonar, torpedo in the water!" message in Sonalyst sims (688i, Dangerous Waters)

Yes I'd like to have the Sonar man give us a heads-up regarding these new AI torpedoes! But, this aspect was never intended to work within the stock game, so there are no "triggers" the developers left us to use for such an event. Without the "command" to initiate the phrase, there's nothing we can do.

The only stock game torpedo used was meant to come from the players sub, not the enemy. Well, there is the torpedo coming from the Japanese Torpedo Planes, but there was nothing additional in a warning to the player for it. Without a hard coded "trigger" we can't add/change what's not developed.

[propbeanie]

Originally Posted by Hitman

No such thing in SH1 AFAIK, though you get an anxious "Conn, sonar, torpedo in the water!" message in Sonalyst sims (688i, Dangerous Waters)

That's right! As CapnScurvy says though, no "trigger", no warning... We'll just pretend that the Sonarman is an incompetent nincompoop, like the guy working on the campaign files for this mod...

[J0313]

First of all let me clue you in on a little secret Capn Scurvy and Rockin Robbins. The man who raised me was a plank owner on SS210. The USS Grenadier. I am well aware of the fact that the Japs didn't run their merchants in convoys. They didn't really start doing that for the most part until late in the war and by then it was to friggin late. And as far as historical accuracy goes. I am not saying that you have to try and get everything exactly as it was during the war. That would make for very boring game play. But as far as surface ships shooting torpedoes at submerged boats, that's borderline arcade stuff. It wasn't done because your chances of hitting a submerged sub was practically zero. You wouldn't know its depth, AOB, course or speed. So there it is, that's my opinion and I am sorry if you don't like it.

[CapnScurvy]

Originally Posted by J0313

......... as far as surface ships shooting torpedoes at submerged boats, that's borderline arcade stuff. It wasn't done because your chances of hitting a submerged sub was practically zero. You wouldn't know its depth, AOB, course or speed. So there it is, that's my opinion and I am sorry if you don't like it.

What makes you think the AI Torpedo is going any deeper than what a surface ship draft would be? If you decide to go deeper than periscope depth, you'll be out of reach of the torpedo....if its fired at you. The only way it fires is by you being detected. If detected, what do you think will happen? Those weapons called Depth Charges didn't have an exact fix on a sub, but that didn't keep the enemy from firing them!

One of the greatest reasons few Japanese torpedoes were ever fired at a Fleetboat is due to the very reason I gave......Warship escort to merchant shipping was next to non existent in the Pacific. Yet, for game play sake, it's seen as a way of adding peril to a game that doesn't provide exact/accurate peril of real life conditions. If it was going to do that, we would have seen the developers add mechanical failure to the subs damage model instead of just taking damage from enemy fire. Just getting into a "sinking" boat was full of peril enough, yet there's little a game can do to simulate that. So, we make other aspects harder, just to compensate for the lack of realism that can never be duplicated. You don't like the approach? Don't play.

[J0313]

Okay so if the reason you say torpedoes weren’t used is because of lack of escorts than riddle me this. Why didn’t the allies respond with flurries of torpedoes whenever they detected an u-boat? They didn’t consider convoys to be low on the priority list and allocated rescources like mad in order to protect them. It should have been standard procedure to blast off ten mark 15’s ( in the case of a Fletcher class can) the moment they got a fix on the boat right? Wrong, that’s what depth charges And hedgehogs were for! And you keep talking about realism. Then why concern yourself with ship physics and other REALISM related fixes. Just leave the game in it’s same broke ass state and play it or don’t play it. Come on man. And you want to take it personal when I am bringing up what I consider to be a valid point. Gee sorry bro. Didn’t know you had such thin skin. I’ll make sure to tone it down a bit in order to protect your delicate sensibilities. You should give this link a try. This will give you an idea of just how crappy the overall hit rate was for the IJN and thier vaunted Long Lance. http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-067.htm