The gawd-almighty merged DRM in Silent Hunter V thread - Page 106

goldorak · 02-25-10, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kylania

You can't honestly believe this (any!) DRM will do anything about pirates? DRM has not, does not and will not do anything to stop true pirates.

At most it would be a minor inconvenience to a pirate, confuse for a day or two a scriptkidde yet completely and constantly punish a paying customer.

Such a wrong misconception.
DRM is not designed to stop pirates, its designed to take away control from the legitimate customer.

wetwarev7 · 02-25-10, 02:30 PM

I've skipped the last hundred pages or so of this thread, so....

Something else that has occured to me regarding the whole being online while playing issue is that it changes things from a purchase to Ubi now providing me with a service. I wonder if Ubisoft has considered the implications of not having a proper service agreement, and what legel holes they might be digging for themselves due to loss of service issues?

And, what kind of legal rights and expectations do consumers have when buying software that requires a constant internet connection for use?

Brag · 02-25-10, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wetwarev7

I've skipped the last hundred pages or so of this thread, so....

Something else that has occured to me regarding the whole being online while playing issue is that it changes things from a purchase to Ubi now providing me with a service. I wonder if Ubisoft has considered the implications of not having a proper service agreement, and what legel holes they might be digging for themselves due to loss of service issues?

And, what kind of legal rights and expectations do consumers have when buying software that requires a constant internet connection for use?

A very interesting angle. Something a specialized lawyer would need to take a look at. This could place a number of companies into unexpected circumstances. If you have to log in to play something you don't own . . .

IanC · 02-25-10, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nordmann

It's funny really, I've seen such accusations levelled in a few threads over the past few weeks, but it isn't logical at all. DRM is a non issue to pirates, these enterprising individuals work their way round such "protection" within hours of the game's release!

That's a good point. It's not the pirates who are complaining, they're probably smiling and rubbing their hands at having a new project to 'work' on.

Elder-Pirate · 02-25-10, 06:44 PM

I absolutely refuse to not be a pirate!.............err I mean my user name.

Actually I do play the role of a game pirate while playing "Age of Pirates 2", but that's legal.

Now back to this wonderful story about Dumb Ruptured Mutations.

michaelws · 02-25-10, 06:59 PM

Dumb Ruptured Mutations. Love it.

Mikkow · 02-25-10, 07:07 PM

I think the proposal is completely irellevant for Ubi, because piracy is probably only a small reason of their motives for this new online requirement.

In the past, Ubi has been known to insert spyware into their software, without notice, that collects personal information about you, your computer and how you use the game (the details are unknown to me), and then sends it live through a permanent internet connection to Ubi.

The data is valuable to them. Their marketing department gets loads of new information to go on. Planning future products can make use of information on anything relating to how the previous products were used with who, how, with what, etc.

One requirement now is that we not only stay connected, using our personally identifiable profile, at all times (and in that sense, who knows what information we are providing them with through our connection), but also that they make claim on saved files. Question here is also - what do these saves contain beyond just the position we were at in the game? Since we cannot even access them ourselves, they get access to enormous amounts of snapshots/files stored on their servers, containing information that can be analyzed, and which is personally identifiable to the customer.

Not being constantly connected would mean they cannot monitor and collect information about you, and the saves would problaby then also not be saved at their servers, meaning the information the saves could provide to them is also lost.

jwilliams · 02-25-10, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wetwarev7

I've skipped the last hundred pages or so of this thread, so....

Something else that has occured to me regarding the whole being online while playing issue is that it changes things from a purchase to Ubi now providing me with a service. I wonder if Ubisoft has considered the implications of not having a proper service agreement, and what legel holes they might be digging for themselves due to loss of service issues?

And, what kind of legal rights and expectations do consumers have when buying software that requires a constant internet connection for use?

Im sure that Ubisoft will add a TOU (terms of use) aggrement to their EULA that will state "Ubisoft will not be held resposible for not being able to connect to the servers, server downtime, lost saves and data" etc.

I dont see people sueing Blizzard every time their severs go down (blizzard have a similar statement on their TOU).
www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/termsofuse.html

admobadmo · 02-25-10, 10:18 PM

At least Blizzard has a pretty good incentive to get their servers back online: if people can't play, they'll stop paying every month.

For a game you pay for just once, where's the incentive to make sure the servers stay on? Just wondering...

Elder-Pirate · 02-25-10, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by admobadmo

At least Blizzard has a pretty good incentive to get their servers back online: if people can't play, they'll stop paying every month.

For a game you pay for just once, where's the incentive to make sure the servers stay on? Just wondering...

That's what the jar of honey is for, to attract the files, then wammo you belong to UBI.

Archive1 · 02-25-10, 11:45 PM

I wonder to what extent UBI considered the geographic differences and weather pattern differences between the US and Europe. For example:

1. The electric grid in the US covers massive areas and thus has multiple areas of frequent power failures. Europe covers smaller areas and has a higher density of population. (My father in law was in charge of the power grid for the entire northern half of Illinois.) Ergo: 'continuous' online connections will often fail in the US.

2. In the US we have regular ice storms in the midwest (lost power), torrential rains in the midwest and southwest (lost power), hurricanes in the gulf states (lost power), tornados in the western states (lost power). Europe does not have this variety since the land mass is relatively small. (I have lived in all these areas and Europe.) Ergo: 'continuous' online connections will often fail in the US.

Here in the Pacific NW we have power outages at least 10 times a year - 10 minutes to 6-8 hours.

Perhaps in Romania they don't know this. Perhaps in Romania they are aware of it but feel they can write off sales in the US. In any case, 'continuous' online connections in the US are limited at best.

Seems they are writing a future course for business schools in "How not to introduce a follow on product into a mature industry for a company with an established reputation."

mookiemookie · 02-25-10, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archive1

Perhaps in Romania they don't know this. Perhaps in Romania they are aware of it but feel they can write off sales in the US.

Game developers in Romania ≠ Ubisoft corporate in France. Ubisoft corporate the publisher are the ones making the DRM decision...not our friends in the development studio in Romania.

alx100 · 02-26-10, 07:41 AM

Interesting interview here with Ubisoft by PC Gamer and why Ubi are doing what they are doing regarding online connection:

http://www.computerandvideogames.com...35596&site=pcg

I find it funny that Ubi cant even come up with a decent answer for the benefit for us gamers for permanent internet connection. I dont mind putting the CD in everytime; its not exactly hard; and i prefer to save games on my machine; not on their server so thats not really any benefit to me.

Sorry if the link has been posted before; i havent really gone back through the whole 100 pages

Topcat357 · 02-26-10, 12:17 PM

It is fairly obvious that pirating is a major problem in many areas of todays marketplace (movies, music, all pc games, etc). It seems that it would be a major factor in what most of us are very interested in: PC simulations. You have to admit, Submarine Sims (as well as any other 'hardcore' sim) is not going to make as much money as any other type of PC game. The smaller market for these type of games, plus the inevitable piracy has got to be a big deterrent for developing these sims.
We have all seen PC game protection types come and go. Usually they are hacked even before the game comes out. The Ubi DRM method seems to be fairly efficient at preventing pirating of the game. I KNOW, it will probably be hacked too...we will see. I understand the problems presented to folks with poor or no internet access. I wish there was a better protection method, but I can't think of one...can you?
If you don't buy the game because of the DRM, I understand and hope that your message forces Ubi to come up with a better protection method. I am holding off on buying this game due to concerns of gameplay, not the DRM...hoping for some good reviews in the first few days!

Sorry for the Rant...feel free to ignore it.

TC357

Schunken · 02-26-10, 12:24 PM

...for my point of view: I do not like DRM but can life with it, my router anyway is 24/7 connected....but:

Since the Commodore 64 I saw copy protection fail - its just a question of time....

The DRM will also fail, maybe not so quick, but it will!

What do you think if we catch the problem from another side?

How much will the DRM and the Servers for it cost?

And now imagine Silent Hunter 5 in a nice box, printed manual, a extra DVD with historical movies, a captains heat (replica for sure). Put the money that you invest in (sooner or later irrelevant) copy protection and improve the game and add useful and nice goodies....

and poeple will buy thankfully!

Andreas

02-25-10, 02:30 PM	#1577
wetwarev7 Grey Wolf Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Deep Waters Posts: 871 Downloads: 31 Uploads: 0	I've skipped the last hundred pages or so of this thread, so.... Something else that has occured to me regarding the whole being online while playing issue is that it changes things from a purchase to Ubi now providing me with a service. I wonder if Ubisoft has considered the implications of not having a proper service agreement, and what legel holes they might be digging for themselves due to loss of service issues? And, what kind of legal rights and expectations do consumers have when buying software that requires a constant internet connection for use? __________________ Guess I should change my sig since SH5 has an offline mode now

02-25-10, 06:44 PM	#1580
Elder-Pirate Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Morris, Illinois USA Posts: 1,090 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 0	I absolutely *refuse* to not be a pirate!.............err I mean my user name. Actually I do play the role of a game pirate while playing "Age of Pirates 2", but that's legal. Now back to this wonderful story about Dumb Ruptured Mutations. __________________

02-25-10, 07:07 PM	#1582
Mikkow Gunner Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 93 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I think the proposal is completely irellevant for Ubi, because piracy is probably only a small reason of their motives for this new online requirement. In the past, Ubi has been known to insert spyware into their software, without notice, that collects personal information about you, your computer and how you use the game (the details are unknown to me), and then sends it live through a permanent internet connection to Ubi. The data is valuable to them. Their marketing department gets loads of new information to go on. Planning future products can make use of information on anything relating to how the previous products were used with who, how, with what, etc. One requirement now is that we not only stay connected, using our personally identifiable profile, at all times (and in that sense, who knows what information we are providing them with through our connection), but also that they make claim on saved files. Question here is also - what do these saves contain beyond just the position we were at in the game? Since we cannot even access them ourselves, they get access to enormous amounts of snapshots/files stored on their servers, containing information that can be analyzed, and which is personally identifiable to the customer. Not being constantly connected would mean they cannot monitor and collect information about you, and the saves would problaby then also not be saved at their servers, meaning the information the saves could provide to them is also lost. __________________ Freelancing Illustrator http://mikkow.deviantart.com

02-26-10, 12:17 PM	#1589
Topcat357 Swabbie Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 7 Downloads: 26 Uploads: 0	DRM - a necessary evil? It is fairly obvious that pirating is a major problem in many areas of todays marketplace (movies, music, all pc games, etc). It seems that it would be a major factor in what most of us are very interested in: PC simulations. You have to admit, Submarine Sims (as well as any other 'hardcore' sim) is not going to make as much money as any other type of PC game. The smaller market for these type of games, plus the inevitable piracy has got to be a big deterrent for developing these sims. We have all seen PC game protection types come and go. Usually they are hacked even before the game comes out. The Ubi DRM method seems to be fairly efficient at preventing pirating of the game. I KNOW, it will probably be hacked too...we will see. I understand the problems presented to folks with poor or no internet access. I wish there was a better protection method, but I can't think of one...can you? If you don't buy the game because of the DRM, I understand and hope that your message forces Ubi to come up with a better protection method. I am holding off on buying this game due to concerns of gameplay, not the DRM...hoping for some good reviews in the first few days! Sorry for the Rant...feel free to ignore it. TC357

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02-25-10, 06:59 PM	#1581
michaelws Seaman Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Kailua-Kona, Hawaii Posts: 38 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Dumb Ruptured Mutations. Love it.

02-25-10, 10:18 PM	#1584
admobadmo Swabbie Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 6 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	At least Blizzard has a pretty good incentive to get their servers back online: if people can't play, they'll stop paying every month. For a game you pay for just once, where's the incentive to make sure the servers stay on? Just wondering...

02-25-10, 11:45 PM	#1586
Archive1 Commander Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Washington State south of Tacoma Posts: 462 Downloads: 26 Uploads: 0	I wonder to what extent UBI considered the geographic differences and weather pattern differences between the US and Europe. For example: 1. The electric grid in the US covers massive areas and thus has multiple areas of frequent power failures. Europe covers smaller areas and has a higher density of population. (My father in law was in charge of the power grid for the entire northern half of Illinois.) Ergo: 'continuous' online connections will often fail in the US. 2. In the US we have regular ice storms in the midwest (lost power), torrential rains in the midwest and southwest (lost power), hurricanes in the gulf states (lost power), tornados in the western states (lost power). Europe does not have this variety since the land mass is relatively small. (I have lived in all these areas and Europe.) Ergo: 'continuous' online connections will often fail in the US. Here in the Pacific NW we have power outages at least 10 times a year - 10 minutes to 6-8 hours. Perhaps in Romania they don't know this. Perhaps in Romania they are aware of it but feel they can write off sales in the US. In any case, 'continuous' online connections in the US are limited at best. Seems they are writing a future course for business schools in "How not to introduce a follow on product into a mature industry for a company with an established reputation."

02-26-10, 07:41 AM	#1588
alx100 Watch Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 27 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Interesting interview here with Ubisoft by PC Gamer and why Ubi are doing what they are doing regarding online connection: http://www.computerandvideogames.com...35596&site=pcg I find it funny that Ubi cant even come up with a decent answer for the benefit for us gamers for permanent internet connection. I dont mind putting the CD in everytime; its not exactly hard; and i prefer to save games on my machine; not on their server so thats not really any benefit to me. Sorry if the link has been posted before; i havent really gone back through the whole 100 pages

02-26-10, 12:24 PM	#1590
Schunken Medic Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 168 Downloads: 20 Uploads: 0	...for my point of view: I do not like DRM but can life with it, my router anyway is 24/7 connected....but: Since the Commodore 64 I saw copy protection fail - its just a question of time.... The DRM will also fail, maybe not so quick, but it will! What do you think if we catch the problem from another side? How much will the DRM and the Servers for it cost? And now imagine Silent Hunter 5 in a nice box, printed manual, a extra DVD with historical movies, a captains heat (replica for sure). Put the money that you invest in (sooner or later irrelevant) copy protection and improve the game and add useful and nice goodies.... and poeple will buy thankfully! Andreas