[REL] FOTRS Ultimate Project

[Michael Wood]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

I would go to the "Star" location for the mission first. In most cases, that will get you 150 renown points for the completed mission orders. Some are worth 200, some 300, and if you go into the Great North, some are 400, but you are at the limits of a boat's endurance up there, and need to be mindful of the fuel situation. Also, if you encounter anything enroute, and it looks safe to attack, do so, because you get points for the sinking of the ship(s), whether assigned yet or not. They would not count toward any objective you haven't reached and been assigned yet. The game has a provision for a player to call in a "Contact Report", but we've reduced the points you get from that down to 50 or less. You of course, won't get renown points if you don't sink something, or complete an assigned mission, either assigned at the start of the patrol, or given after a Status Update. The Status Update is not supposed to (though it is known to mess up) assign a new objective until the first is complete. You coming back in with a "zero" renown increase, according to the Ducimus formula, puts you into the "Poor" column for that particular patrol, earning you a -1 for a campaign rating. It will take a lot of work to get your "score" in that category back up and qualify for a new boat after four or five patrols, and might put you in line for the Sub School Instructor's position... If it's just an experiment, I'd start anew, else see what you can do with the next three or four patrols. Thanks

I just ran a patrol starting Dec 1941 in an S-18 out of Manila. Was ordered to goto the Celebes and patrol for 5 days. I ignored orders and went to Formosa and sank 34,038 tons of shipping in harbor. Returning to Manila, I found I had received 280 points of renown. Is this the way it is supposed to work? If I have to have at least one "excellent" patrol 1301-2000 renown for an upgrade, sounds hard to achieve. Is anyone receiving upgrades?

[CapnScurvy]

Originally Posted by Michael Wood

I just ran a patrol starting Dec 1941 in an S-18 out of Manila. Was ordered to goto the Celebes and patrol for 5 days. I ignored orders and went to Formosa and sank 34,038 tons of shipping in harbor. Returning to Manila, I found I had received 280 points of renown. Is this the way it is supposed to work? If I have to have at least one "excellent" patrol 1301-2000 renown for an upgrade, sounds hard to achieve. Is anyone receiving upgrades?

Yep, that's how we're doing it.

No more completing One Patrol and your given the "Keys to the City", a parade down Main, and a shiny new boat. You get an "At a Boy" with a pat on the back as you head out on another mission. Renown is harder to come by, so spend it wisely. Move up the Game Level off of "Easy" if you want more renown to come your way.

[Zunaka]

Is the mod still updated? Just wondering

[CapnScurvy]

Originally Posted by Immelmann

Is there a list somewhere of the items can and cannot be altered by SH4 modders? I see a bunch of different things and I'm sure that many of them are hard coded into the game core engine. I would love to have a list to check before posting a bug to this forum that nothing can be done about.

No list, we've just figured it on our own....trial and error. Could be why no "list" will ever be made, no one is sure (even after looking at these files for years) what's what? Or, how they all go together??

But, I can show you where the modable game files are:



The blue circled "Data" folder is pretty much what we can work with. Within it are folders/files we were allowed to modify. Using tools like Text Editors (NotePad, or Word) we can easily open change parameters in lots of areas of the game. However, not all folders in "Data" are easy to open without special tools. In the "Data/Agora" folder there are .xml files that won't open with just any tool....you'll need programing equipment to open them and a knowledge to go along with it. There are the "Data/Shaders" folders that have .fx file extensions.....these can be opened with a text editor, but you better know what you're doing before messing around there too.

Then there are the files that require "hex editors" to open......the ship/plane/environment units have these. These are the .dat; .sim; .zon type of files that contain the variables of the model size, makeup, speed, image file that gives it the appearance it has, etc. etc. S3D (Silent 3ditor) can be used on these files to open as well as a hex editor, but it too has it's limitations.

So basically, the modable files are in the "Data" folder.

Outside of the "Data" folder are the Hard Coded files...the .dll, and the .act files which not only takes special editors to open them but are essentially "Off Limits" to us...…..mainly because of infringement rights. As you can see above, there are several (I've highlighted the JSGME files/folders in red, so ignore them). I've also marked in green the SI.bin file……..it's made in the "main" game folder when ever you first run the game. What's in it, I don't know, something the game wants to keep track of I suppose. So, the remainder of what you see are the hard coded files that are unmodable by us unless you have permission to start meddling around, or have special programing tools to open them, and the knowledge to go along with it.

So, here's the thing. We can change parameters in the "Data" folder fairly easily. We can change the color of the sea from grey to blue, we can change how the waves look, but we can't change how the water "interreacts" with the objects that's set upon it.....those are hard coded. We can change the capabilities of a ship unit, give it a different look, a faster speed, a different piece of equipment...….but what the game does with that ship unit, how it interreacts with other ship units, how it deals with finding something in the environment like a land segment, is hard coded. We can't change it.

How do we know this...…... by trial and error. We test, we play, we come to the conclusion that if we can't make something work correctly, it must be due to some "behind the scenes" controller. What really throws a ringer into the mix is when something is set incorrectly, it's backwards to what's expected. There are a lot of these things in the files we can work on, but it's really a shame when we determine it's in something that's hard coded. Only a "System Patch" from the developers can fix THAT. Those ended with this game's fifth patch in 2007!!

And, just like guys that will look at this post and say "I'm not reading all that!!" they will complain about something that we have no control over and expect us to fix it for them.

[CapnScurvy]

Originally Posted by Zunaka

Is the mod still updated? Just wondering

Yes it is, we've got another edition almost ready to be released covering some of the things players have found since our last release.

We've corrected an issue with the players subs not having appropriate battery duration/recharge capabilities (they were too slow in recharging). They should recharge with the next release in about 4 hours now from 25% depletion.

We've added the Stock game icons for the Navigation Map back into the mod. We decided the ship unit "dot" didn't need to be used...…(you can remove it completely with an "Options" setting), so returning to the Stock game ship units seemed the best way to go.

We've fixed all ship units from the original FOTRS mod that would have trouble in heavy sea's.....they should not take damage and sink after being pounded by gale force winds now.

We've looked at some of the sounds and have changed their duration to better have the Stock game behavior used. You'll notice a difference in added responses from the crew now.

We've corrected errors that continue to be found in the Patrol Missions throughout the game.

We've addressed issues regarding AI Sensor (Visual, Sonar, Hydrophone) detection (and/or, the lack of it), hoping to create a better game environment.

Yes, we're still working on it as player's give us feedback! Ultimate is the only "Mega Mod" that's still being actively worked on.

========

BTW, WELCOME to SubSim Zunaka!!

[Michael Wood]

Originally Posted by CapnScurvy

No more completing One Patrol and your given the "Keys to the City", a parade down Main, and a shiny new boat. You get an "At a Boy" with a pat on the back as you head out on another mission. Renown is harder to come by, so spend it wisely. Move up the Game Level off of "Easy" if you want more renown to come your way.

In RFB and TMO, I always got a new boat after three missions with about 18000 tons and about 2000 renown. I did not know, until yesterday, that that had changed. Be sure to prominently note that in documentation, so players will not have false expectations.

I have never played game on "easy". I play with 100 percent and map updates off. I leave event window on, for theatrical effect.

Will wait for new build and play with new expectations. Thanks.

[relfin]

Hi CapnScurvy,


I have just recently returned to SH4. I am excited to see that the FOTRSU mod is still being worked on. Thank you for your contributions to the mod.

Originally Posted by CapnScurvy

We've added the Stock game icons for the Navigation Map back into the mod. We decided the ship unit "dot" didn't need to be used...…(you can remove it completely with an "Options" setting), so returning to the Stock game ship units seemed the best way to go.

This quote made me think of the Real Navigation mod for SH5. Has there been any discussion among your group about incorporating this funcionality into FOTRSU? Maybe an optional addon after the 100 Base mod is finished?

[CapnScurvy]

Originally Posted by relfin

Hi CapnScurvy,


I have just recently returned to SH4. I am excited to see that the FOTRSU mod is still being worked on. Thank you for your contributions to the mod.

This quote made me think of the Real Navigation mod for SH5. Has there been any discussion among your group about incorporating this funcionality into FOTRSU? Maybe an optional addon after the 100 Base mod is finished?

I'm not familiar with the "Real Navigation" mod for SH5? I've got the game but haven't played it in years.....just not a U-Boat fan.
I'm supposing it removes the Nav Map icons from the Map? You have to figure out on your own where things are? The SH4 Game Option "Enable no map updates" does that for you, but I'm guessing there's more to it than that.

[hauangua]

Originally Posted by relfin

This quote made me think of the Real Navigation mod for SH5. Has there been any discussion among your group about incorporating this funcionality into FOTRSU? Maybe an optional addon after the 100 Base mod is finished?

Unfortunately the "real navigation" of SH5 is unfeasible in SH4, there is something that can look like it in SH3, which I believe it is possible to adapt for SH4, but it is not comparable with Real Nav SH5

[cdrsubron7]

Originally Posted by Zunaka

Is the mod still updated? Just wondering

Welcome to Subsim, Zunaka. Happy to have you with us.


To answer your question, yes. FOTRSU is updated every so often depending on what new fixes come down the pipe. v0.81 was just recently released.

[relfin]

CapnScurvy,


Here is a youtube link that demonstrates Real Navigation for SH5. I don't know if it would even be possible to implement something similar to this in SH4.

[Immelmann]

Originally Posted by CapnScurvy

No list, we've just figured it on our own....trial and error. Could be why no "list" will ever be made, no one is sure (even after looking at these files for years) what's what? Or, how they all go together??.............And, just like guys that will look at this post and say "I'm not reading all that!!" they will complain about something that we have no control over and expect us to fix it for them.

Thank you for the detailed explanation. I have a better understanding now.

[CapnScurvy]

Originally Posted by relfin

CapnScurvy,
Here is a youtube link that demonstrates Real Navigation for SH5. I don't know if it would even be possible to implement something similar to this in SH4.

Wow, that's very impressive!

Just figuring out how it was done in SHV, then seeing how to transport it into SH4 would be a task that could take up months of head scratching. I'm guessing the final answer would be no....simply because the interface between SH4 and SHV is so different. I'm thinking the ability for such a mod to exist, there has to be some type of existing configured system the modder used to add his "harbor pilot" and other navigational aids. I don't think there's that kind of system in SH4.

I could be wrong, but that's the only way mods become reality...….an original game play feature is used and "substituted" with a modified one that takes the place of the original.

I'll give you an example......In Ultimate I came up with a way of having a Destroyer fire torpedoes at an AI enemy, or the players sub. I used a deck gun weapon as the launcher (it's invisible to the player), then used a torpedo as it's "shell". Not to get too technical, put there was all kinds of issues with getting a "shell" to actually submerge below the waterline and travel at a speed resembling a torpedo speed, but it eventually came to be. Their not perfect, but it does actually work in-game. The point is, the deck gun weapon was already existing, I just figured out how to have it work in a different fashion. That's what would be needed for a "Real Navigation" mod to work.....I just don't know of an existing feature that could be changed to work as the SHV game does?

[propbeanie]

Originally Posted by Michael Wood

In RFB and TMO, I always got a new boat after three missions with about 18000 tons and about 2000 renown. I did not know, until yesterday, that that had changed. Be sure to prominently note that in documentation, so players will not have false expectations.

I have never played game on "easy". I play with 100 percent and map updates off. I leave event window on, for theatrical effect.

Will wait for new build and play with new expectations. Thanks.

Part of the problem of course, is that we're still in "beta", and almost absolutely nothing is set in stone. We are dealing with a moving target. One of our concerns with the TMO portion of the game, was that it was unrealistically too easy to score "renown" points in FOTRS, which is what this mod started as. We have been lowering and lowering the points awarded for various aspects of the game, and we would still have skippers earning a Balao boat in late September 1942, which would end up crashing the game after running the first mission with it. You used to get a forced retirement, but Ubisoft "fixed" that with their updates... - Anyway, the goal is to reward the player that completes his assignment, pure plain and simple "Follow Orders" from Fife & Lockwood and King, etc., and you'll get there. I'm still trying to figure out a way to tighten up the "Sink" missions, which are the ones that direct the player to "Proceed immediately to XX location, and await further orders". If you get one of those, after you reach the area, it does not matter where you sink your tonnage. A skipper would never be sent out like that. We want to include "Do not enter sector XX between the hours of XXXX and XXXX due to it being a free-fire zone", and little things like that, but it is a process. I've gotten a few of those ideas finished, but I need more than a "few" of them... We will re-visit the points system, because it does appear at first blush (no extensive testing yet), that we may have gone too far, but we'll see later.

Originally Posted by relfin

... This quote made me think of the Real Navigation mod for SH5. Has there been any discussion among your group about incorporating this funcionality into FOTRSU? Maybe an optional addon after the 100 Base mod is finished?

It is possible to simulate a "Real" Navigation, but one thing to remember about the Silent Hunter series, is that the "world" is a cylinder, so especially the northern and souther longitudes are very distorted, plus with SH4, the game is literally "tied" to a 30fps "clock". I am talking about a 24 hour a day time clock, that can be thrown way out of whack unless you set the game and your video card correctly. Front Runner did some deep digging on this for us, since he does a lot of "real time" gaming in SH4. But he would occasionally use Time Compression, and noticed quite a difference between using and not using TC... So the game shoots itself in the foot there, besides the fact that with that, the celestial bodies will be out of whack with the clock. Top it off with the cone distortion of the sky / sea line. Think of it as a cylindrical "world", with a half-dome sky / celestial bodies, with the potential to get "out of time" with each other... It can be done, and has been done, but you can also be off by hundreds of miles very easily with one little mishap with Time Compression or fps in the game... I'm forgetting to mention something else that is really important...

Edit: Now I remember! (I think)... What is "local" time in the game? What is "base" time in the game? What is "zulu" time in the game? These and other important questions in the game await an answer and a solution... ie: If you're at 176°w, what time is it?
@ CapnScurvy: That's that py scripting and AI doing the pilot.

[CapnScurvy]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

: We will re-visit the points system, because it does appear at first blush (no extensive testing yet), that we may have gone too far, but we'll see later.

Nope, the renown award is just fine!