[REL] FOTRS Ultimate Project

[propbeanie]

Originally Posted by max-peck

In the 'Some Assembly Required' section
is now 800 Razz Dazz FOTRSU v0.65 ...

Originally Posted by cdrsubron7

Just a quick head's up for everyone. Only download the FOTRSU700SingleMissions file. It has all of my current missions including the 5 Aleutian missions. Ignore the Aleutian Missions file.

Cool beans, both you guys... on my way to new and exciting experiments...

Originally Posted by max-peck

... Just started to plot it on the map when I get the 'Ship Spotted' warning

Immediately order a crash dive

Whilst I am on my way down the lead destroyers have already started to shell me - so they must have seen me about the same time I saw them

Something seems wrong here

I am hoping the Capn can fix it

Amen brotha... Have they finished dumping their ash cans on you yet?... At least you didn't have airplanes find you first...

oh! do you have cdrsubron7's AI levels installed?... "Stock" FotRS Ultimate is quite a bit reminiscent of TMO in the AI sensors.

[propbeanie]

I finally got around to editing the pictures from testing XTBilly's Jackrabbit neutering (well, maybe not *that* severe...):

First up, you can see the torpedo track as it's about to impact. Please pardon my poor line drawing "artwork" - after all, it is ~art~...


.
On this one, you can see that the DD is definitely getting up to speed, by the fact that the torpedo's water spout is still blooming, and half of the rest of the ship is already by it. They were originally at about 6-8 knots when I launched the torp:

notice that I figured out how to draw a straight line?... Just like gettin' water to boil... nothin' to it - sort of.
.
Not that it matters, but it was mortally wounded... I just wanna show the picture...

Someone mentioned that it bothered them that, no matter the circumstances, that a ship, when it breaks in two, the two halves always sink together. I thought they were nuts, until I started paying attention... This one looked like it was going to be the stern beating the bow down by several minutes or more, but "~no~", it bobbed around up top like a fishing cork, waiting for the bow to catch up to it. That took about five minutes, then they both did like fishing line corks, and bobbed about for another five minutes like a co-ordinated swim team, and then sank almost simultaneously... Weird.

Anyway, there you have it no bout a-doubt it - XTBilly's fix works. They can take off, they just don't have that 0-32 knots in less than 700 yards anymore.

[max-peck]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

Anyway, there you have it no bout a-doubt it - XTBilly's fix works. They can take off, they just don't have that 0-32 knots in less than 700 yards anymore.

I have found the same thing
They still try to speed up or slow down when they see a torpedo track
But now that they no longer have such insane acceleration, it alters where the torpedo hits, rather than having the torp miss altogether

I say - Good work Billy
Looks like it is working as intended

[max-peck]

It looks like 800 Razz Dazz FOTRSU v0.65 and 310 FOTRS Ultimate Ship Acceleration Model overwrite each other

Whichever you enable last will overwrite the first one in JSGME

This should not be the case
I am changing texture and roster files
Billy is changing SIM files

The two should not be incompatible

I am going to take a look and see if I can track down the issue

EDIT - I may be drinking soup - I will check this also

[max-peck]

OK - most of the overwrites look like no issue - JSGME is telling me that we are using the same new ship folders



However there is one entry that has me scratching my head



Apparantly my thumbs.db is overwriting Billy's thumbs.db

Anyone have any idea what the heck a thumbs.db is?

I have done a search in both mine and Billy's folders, and cannot find a Thumbs.db

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by CapnScurvy

That's an interesting find there Double R. More on it later.

A good place to look for information on ships of all types is from the Historic Naval Ships Association.

Here, you'll find the Radar Operators Manual If you look for the chapter "Specific Equipment" you'll find both SD and SJ radar headings. On page 4-SD-5 you'll find the heading "Performance", with this as the SD's (Air Search) Reliable Range:

Large planes above 1,000 feet.......12-20nm
Small planes above 1,000 feet.......8-15nm
Low planes......... Not detected

Late war development of the SV Radar (taking the place of SD-1 Air Search improvements), can be found here at the USS Pampanito site:

Maximum reliable range. (miles):
Bombers, at 30,000 ft........7.5
Bombers, at 10,000 ft........10
Fighters, at 10,000 ft.........12
Battleships.......................12.5
Cruisers...........................15
Destroyers.......................10
Submarines, surfaced.........7.5

The "Radar Operators Manual" also lists the SJ (Surface Search) performance on page 4-SJ-9:

Antenna: 33 Feet
Target..........................Maximum Reliable Range in Yards
BB, CV, Large auxiliaries............25,000 to 30,000/12.3nm-14.8nm
CA, CL, Medium auxiliaries..........20,000 to 25,000/9.8nm-12.3nm
DD, DE, DM, AV, PC, CG, etc......15,000 to 18,000/7.4nm-8.8nm

In another document of 1943 called "Operational Characteristics of Radar Classified by Tactical Application, FTP 217" You can get another idea of radar range by looking up either SD or SJ radar.

You may say....."Well, this proves you're all wet Scurvy. You're ranges are too low!!"

My answer......it's been documented that these "performance ranges", even the "reliable" ones are from optimum conditions, and are well above true found ranges. Take a look at this document, the "Radar and Submarine War, 1941-1945: A Reinterpretation" by Robert Dienesch......page 32 should be read carefully regarding SJ radar performance:


Pay attention to this authors footnote to that statement. His footnote points to another authors book by Norman Friedman, "Submarine Design and Development",.....He states:
Cue in Double R's findings in the document "Enemy Contacts by U.S. Submarines, 1943 to End of War". You'll see SJ radar making first contact, on average, to be about 16,000 yards.....some as high as 22,000 yds. One as high as 30,000 by sub SS 304.

In the Hydrophone/Sonar area, there's not much of a definitive performance specifications as there is with Radar. Sound traveling in water is rated more in decibels than in specific range figures. I offer this site "The Pacific War Online Encyclopedia". It states:


By far and away, the detection sensor that really has the edge is the visual! The "Enemy Contact" document reports having lookouts regularly detecting at ranges of 30,000 yards plus!! I couldn't help to see a pattern though....... that sub SS 304 that claimed they detected a radar contact at 30,000 yds was regularly finding 40,000 yard targets by its lookouts!?! They weren't the only sub who seemed to find things out at distances a little questionable. On Jan 10, 1944 and again on the 14th, sub SS 197 reported their lookouts spotted ships at 50,000 yards?? Either they had the sharpest crew in the Navy, or someone took a liking to inflating the numbers!?

Anyway, here's why I've got my radar sensors set as they are. And, its worth while to check some others as well.

Perfect. When we get questions, we just link to your post Capn. And we have to live with the word "average." We're hardcoded not to extend the horizon with high periscope. We're hardcoded that detection ranges for sampans equal those of aircraft carriers. We're hardcoded that radar never breaks down, and breakdowns were factors in many submarine sinkings and near sinkings. Lots of stuff we'll never have in the game. But we have a magnificent mod for a magnificent game!

[CapnScurvy]

Originally Posted by max-peck

And on a completely different note, but pertaining to discussions recently, I am going to go ahead and re-instate the map marker for when an aircraft is within visual range.

I have no idea why it was taken out - and it aggravates the hell out of me

It is not a big deal to do - just editing the air_shp files

We can either make it part of the core - or have it as a separate patch
Really not fussed either way

But I am doing it - because I really hate the way it is setup at the moment

Max, you mean you're putting back in the Navigation Map icons for the planes?

I'm all for it. The fact that FOTRS removed them at the closer zoomed map views, yet left the outline of a triangle in for the wider zoomed map views doesn't make sense to me. These map icons are the only way we can get an idea that the SD Radar is working with the stock game (although with the radar set up as I've got it, you will "see" the faster plane blip crossing the PPI screen). I do wish the radioman could distinguish between the two different types of contacts....but as the stock game had the radar set up, only the SD radar picked up planes and represented them on the Nav Map. The A-Scope and PPI stations were only meant to show surface contacts (but, they did a very poor job of doing that!!).

If that's what you're doing, I'll do the same for my extra planes.

Frankly, I wouldn't mind seeing the ship icons back on the Nav Map either, instead of the dots. If a player wanted to remove them, the game "options" gives you the chance to not have any markers at all showing on the map. If your a stickler for realism, use the game option of "no map contacts" and put your big boy pants on..

AND, speaking of markers, I'm for putting back the orange marker that floats above the sub when its submerged. If your a purist for detail, you shouldn't be wanting to use the outside camera anyway for seeing what's what. The marker gives you a reference for those that wish to use the free camera. For those that think its cheating.....you shouldn't be using the free camera at all!

That's my two cents.

[max-peck]

Originally Posted by CapnScurvy

Max, you mean you're putting back in the Navigation Map icons for the planes?

That's the plan yes

Like I said - it can either be a part of the core mod, or I will happily have it as an optional plugin

I will let RR have the final say on this

But yes - we need to have aircraft marked on the nav map

Back later - I am playing the latest BETA, and am in the middle of a two hour depth charging
Only a Subnut would think that that is fun

[Captain Dave]

thumbs.db is a thumbnail cache of your ship pics.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by CapnScurvy

Max, you mean you're putting back in the Navigation Map icons for the planes?

I'm all for it. The fact that FOTRS removed them at the closer zoomed map views, yet left the outline of a triangle in for the wider zoomed map views doesn't make sense to me. These map icons are the only way we can get an idea that the SD Radar is working with the stock game (although with the radar set up as I've got it, you will "see" the faster plane blip crossing the PPI screen). I do wish the radioman could distinguish between the two different types of contacts....but as the stock game had the radar set up, only the SD radar picked up planes and represented them on the Nav Map. The A-Scope and PPI stations were only meant to show surface contacts (but, they did a very poor job of doing that!!).

If that's what you're doing, I'll do the same for my extra planes.

Frankly, I wouldn't mind seeing the ship icons back on the Nav Map either, instead of the dots. If a player wanted to remove them, the game "options" gives you the chance to not have any markers at all showing on the map. If your a stickler for realism, use the game option of "no map contacts" and put your big boy pants on..

AND, speaking of markers, I'm for putting back the orange marker that floats above the sub when its submerged. If your a purist for detail, you shouldn't be wanting to use the outside camera anyway for seeing what's what. The marker gives you a reference for those that wish to use the free camera. For those that think its cheating.....you shouldn't be using the free camera at all!

That's my two cents.

I think the plane icons back on the nav map is a good thing, because that's our substitute for actual airplane radar. We'll put it in the core mod. I don't want any RFB type foolishness going on here. No information is NOT more realistic than the technically wrong kind of information!

As far as the ship icons on the nav map, that allows you to ID the ship by radar return, something that was basically only done for the Shinano because the return was so huge. Unfortunately they initially thought they had detected an island. Reason? The blip wasn't a ship-shaped thing, it was a dot. A freaking big dot! That's what the core mod should have: the TMO plotting system.

Now, we'll have plugins for stock plotting with ship silhouettes, velocity vectors and explanitory text for those who want the stock plotting system back. That's mostly done. All I have to do is add ships from FOTRS Ultimate and we're golden. It's important that unlike TMO, new players will be able to play FOTRS Ultimate and it will help them learn without having to abandon the mod to do so.

I also want to work on an intermediary plotting system where you get a silhouette but no explanitory text or velocity vector. All ships would have the same silhouette. That way you would have an idea, not very precise, of which way the target was moving. You would still have to do a timing over distance to determine exact course and speed. The only thing necessary to achieve this will be a tiny change (okay, not so tiny as I'll have to do the tiny change 100 times) in TMOPlot and we'll have a brand new plotting plugin for FOTRSUltimate.

Oh, forgot. Capn, let's put the UMark back into the core mod. I don't see what is spoils at all. We can always publish a plugin to remove the marker who complain that it makes the external view "unrealistic." I agree it's crazy to complain about the Umark when you're using a magic external camera.... And without the Umark, pressing the external camera button brings you right back to the submarine anyway. That ISN'T "cheating?"

[max-peck]

Following a PM between RR and me

Message follows:
The mission goals are rubbish

Here is my mission goal in FOTRS
Run to the South China Sea and sink stuff

In TMO
Proceed to area Abuse and engage in anti shipping operations within the designated area in the East China Sea for 5 days. Stay within 96nm. If you detect any enemy units outside the patrol area captains autonomy to pursue and destroy

OK so I exaggerate - but you see my point?

FOTRSU patrol objectives are limp and uninspiring, to say the least
TMO patrol objectives are awesome, exciting, and immersive

That is my next thing I want to do

I am definitely going to be doing this for my own install - so would also be happy to share it for everyone if that is OK

Disclaimer
May take me a few weeks!!!

Message ends

Long story short, the TMO and RSRD patrol objectives are awesome, descriptive, and immersive

At the moment the FOTRS Patrol objectives are none of the above

Long ago Ducimus figured out how to put a circle on the nav map that delineated your patrol area
I had a look at the files when he did it, and remember being very impressed
For the life of me I cannot now figure out how he did it. But I am going to take a look and see if I can figure it out.

Plus - having descriptive and helpful patrol messages is just better - isn't it??

Just like the restore air contacts on the nav map mod, this can either be part of the core, or can be an optional extra

Either way - I am going to be doing it for my install, so will happily share it if anyone else wants a taste

EDIT - I realise I didn't actually say what I wanted to do
Which is take the patrol briefings from TMO and RSRD for flavour, and apply them to FOTRSU
That is the plan

[pdiddy]

Looking forward to this mod with great anticipation (as I'm sure many are!)

Forgive me if I've missed this (I've tried to read all the posts.) I know we're getting an optical correction with FOTRSU but will the Rec Manual stadimeter reference heights be OTC accurate? At least as a plug-in?

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by max-peck

Following a PM between RR and me

Message follows:
The mission goals are rubbish

Here is my mission goal in FOTRS
Run to the South China Sea and sink stuff

In TMO
Proceed to area Abuse and engage in anti shipping operations within the designated area in the East China Sea for 5 days. Stay within 96nm. If you detect any enemy units outside the patrol area captains autonomy to pursue and destroy

OK so I exaggerate - but you see my point?

FOTRSU patrol objectives are limp and uninspiring, to say the least
TMO patrol objectives are awesome, exciting, and immersive

That is my next thing I want to do

I am definitely going to be doing this for my own install - so would also be happy to share it for everyone if that is OK

Disclaimer
May take me a few weeks!!!

Message ends

Long story short, the TMO and RSRD patrol objectives are awesome, descriptive, and immersive

At the moment the FOTRS Patrol objectives are none of the above

Long ago Ducimus figured out how to put a circle on the nav map that delineated your patrol area
I had a look at the files when he did it, and remember being very impressed
For the life of me I cannot now figure out how he did it. But I am going to take a look and see if I can figure it out.

Plus - having descriptive and helpful patrol messages is just better - isn't it??

Just like the restore air contacts on the nav map mod, this can either be part of the core, or can be an optional extra

Either way - I am going to be doing it for my install, so will happily share it if anyone else wants a taste

EDIT - I realise I didn't actually say what I wanted to do
Which is take the patrol briefings from TMO and RSRD for flavour, and apply them to FOTRSU
That is the plan

And a fine plan that is. Automatically plotting the patrol circles would be something also that would go in the core mod.

[CapnScurvy]

Regarding the plane icons.........Ok Max...got it. I'll make sure I'm on the same page with them.

============

Now......I'm trying to get caught up on questions previously asked:

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

CapnScurvy, do we have your stuff or do you have more than can be included in this release?

No, you don't have my stuff. I'm close to finishing. I prefer to have things checked and done before putting it out (even if for a trial run).

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

The Nav Map mod in the main directory: what is that and do we need to use it for the next cauldron run?

I don't know, I didn't upload it.......least I don't think I did I'll claim my age is to blame if it was me.

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Regarding the ship icons on the nav map.......the core mod should have the TMO plotting system.

.........we'll have plugins for stock plotting with ship silhouettes.........

Ok, that's what we'll do.

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Capn, let's put the UMark back into the core mod.

Good, I'll put it back in. That will give propbeanie a chance to find the subs while looking for them in the Museum!!

Originally Posted by pdiddy

Forgive me if I've missed this (I've tried to read all the posts.) I know we're getting an optical correction with FOTRSU but will the Rec Manual stadimeter reference heights be OTC accurate? At least as a plug-in?

No, the heights won't be checked or corrected for accuracy. What you have is what you'll have. Maybe a plug in later.

[max-peck]

I have just taken a look at the Nav Map Mod that is in the directory

Looks like it is intended to change the behaviour of the nav map when using the arrow keys, or the cursor when you get close to the edge of the map

Trouble being, it alters the menu_1024_768 file, so I would say that whatever the hell it does, it is going to be incompatible with pretty much everything we have done

As such - I would advise giving this file a very wide berth