Bearing, setting it MANUALLY!

[BarracudaUAK]

This thread has multiple reasons for me posting it.

After some searching I did find the answer to my original question.
The question was, "where do I set the bearing?, but I was using radar/sonar since it was dark, and I couldn't see the nose of the boat from the bridge...
And upon seeing the answer, I remembered seeing it in game... (the "send range and bearing to TDC" button on the range dial!)

First, if someone has done this already, if you could point me in the right direction...

A bit of a rant follows,

My complaints with SH4's TDC are as follows...

I have to be at the periscope to use the TDC... But I don't have access to it on the attack map (which doesn't have a hot key...). Even though I can see the "output" on the PK... I have to keep jumping back to the periscope to update AOB & speed. (I read of an error that occurs with range using the Staidometer (sp?)...) I have to jump to the sonar to get bearing and range, or with this mod: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/down...do=file&id=717 which lets me manually set the Range from ~220-11,000 from the periscope (if I'm using radar). And lets the periscopes bearing mess up the data.
Then go BACK to the sonar to set the bearing again (which is never where I want it).
THEN, it's back to the attack map to double check the TDC/PK and make sure it's pointed in the right direction...

In the Conning Tower, if you go to the free camera (crtl-F2, I think), you can go look at the TDC in the corner (far right from your "fixed" CT camera view), and ALL of the individual controls/output is right there... but you can't use them. Pure eye candy.
And you could set the BEARING all by itself...

So when I'm submerged, I have to go to 3 different screens to setup a shot.

Now to compare to SH3, I could just listen to the bearing, set speed to 0, set range to the estimated, and then move the BEARING around to an area ahead of the track of the ship, and let rip... and viola! in about 3 seconds I setup a shot for a homing torpedo.

Or if I have a little more time, I can gather the data, then set Speed, Range, AOB, and you guessed it BEARING!... and then let rip.

Since there is an entire crew, and SOMEBODY (probably the Captain or XO) is saying ALOUD the info to be input to the TDC (by someone else entirely), then I should be able to set the TDC FROM THE STERN TORPEDO ROOM IF I WANT!!!!111!!!!111@#43489WE4983424267238940~!
(Can you tell that this annoys me?)


Now to my point... If I could set these things on the attack map, I wouldn't need to jump around. I could set the sonar to follow a ship, then manually input the data, set the PK, then just update as I go.

Is the Sh4/Data/Menu/menu_1024_768.ini where all the info is still kept?
Or did they move that too?

I'm hoping to set a SH3 style bearing/AOB/range/speed style cluster on the right/top, with a "send to TDC" button for each. So I don't have to use the periscope screen when I'm not making a visual run. (and thereby avoid the scopes bearing messing with the TDC.)

Thanks for any help...

A very annoyed,
Barracuda

[Rockin Robbins]

SH4 was meant to represent the way things are really done on a submarine better than SH3. And it does. There is no attack map with all the dials to set your TDC in a real submarine. You must do that at the periscope, at the sonar station, at the radar station and sitting at the TDC inputs themselves.

I personally would be against a mod that turns running a submarine into an arcade game experience with dials and inputs on the attack map itself. That's one area that the SH4 devs got right and the SH3 devs got wrong.

Making all these requested items work would mean extreme manipulation of the satanic menu_1024_768_filefromhell.ini and one mod would have to have a hundred variations for all the game configurations out there becuase you can't write a mod to change just one part of that file without overwriting all the rest of it with nonsense.

Throughout my modding career touching that file has been something I'm just not willing to do. Too many sharks in that pool! The only place that would make sense would be in a supermod.

Now there are some changes that would be nice. The stadimeter should work like the real one with you inputting the height of the target characteristic you want to measure. Bearing and range should be separately entered from the periscope. The radar should have digital range and range and bearing input buttons for the TDC, similar to the sonar station. The person at the TDC should be able to digitally enter bearing, range and speed. You should be able to enter a digital range at the periscope and TDC. All that is hard coded and our hands are tied. CapnScurvy has made a digital range readout at the radar.

[BarracudaUAK]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

...
There is no attack map with all the dials to set your TDC in a real submarine. You must do that at the periscope, at the sonar station, at the radar station and sitting at the TDC inputs themselves.
...


I personally would be against a mod that turns running a submarine into an arcade game experience with dials and inputs on the attack map itself. That's one area that the SH4 devs got right and the SH3 devs got wrong.
...

As far as an "Attack Map" is concerned... "In the real world" could be a piece of paper (maybe graph paper?), with a 'mark' in the center, a ruler, and a 360deg protractor (preferably one with a short ruler attached at the center, seen a few of these).

The 'mark' would be my sub. When a bearing is called out by radar/sonar, I can mark it down, and then 'order', i.e. set the bearing on the dial, when range is called, by stadimeter/radar/sonar, I can measure with my ruler to that distance, and mark/draw a line, and order/set dial to the range, do that twice, deduce speed and bearing, and order/set the appropriate dials....
(I would love to have all of the "tools" on the navigation map on the in game "attack map" too!)
I can then look at the TDC/PK and say ok, it says shoot X degrees, so I can place my ruler (or swing the one that is attached to the protractor) over that bearing, and say ok, I agree/don't agree with that. (Mimicking the "line" on the in-game attack map.)

I've played a few other games where it doesn't show you where ships/subs/planes are, it shows you where you think they are (same as the PK in SH4). Unless you use a command to activate the "show me where they actually are". So this is not a problem (for me).



While I can understand you not wanting yet another arcade game. I will counter your statement with this...

Since I have a "crew", and my sub's ability to do ANYTHING is dependent on the "skill" of this crew, then I should NOT be running around doing it all myself. Which is what it feels like when I'm jumping between screens constantly.
I have a command bar to order speed/heading/depth changes as if I was verbally calling them out. I don't recall ever seeing on any movie, or documentary/news type program, ever seeing the captain walk over and set the engine telegraph, he always orders a setting.

Put the plotting tools on a map, with access to the TDC inputs will not turn it into an arcade game, it will however let me "order" the TDC to be set while looking at the plotting data.
As if I'm holding the map in front of me, looking at the TDC...

(As it is, I can see the TDC/PK output, even when looking through the periscope, which is a bit arcade-ish if you really want to start splitting hairs. )

For that matter, a screen with JUST the TDC would be absolutely awesome.

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

...
Now there are some changes that would be nice. The stadimeter should work like the real one with you inputting the height of the target characteristic you want to measure. Bearing and range should be separately entered from the periscope. The radar should have digital range and range and bearing input buttons for the TDC, similar to the sonar station. The person at the TDC should be able to digitally enter bearing, range and speed. You should be able to enter a digital range at the periscope and TDC. All that is hard coded and our hands are tied. CapnScurvy has made a digital range readout at the radar.
...

Seperate bearing would be a great start, all of them separate would be great too, less time clicking between tabs would save me time and tedium. Since they ARE seperate on the TDC itself, I've got a lot of "black" around that circular scope view...

Ability to enter from the radar also a plus... but if it's hardcoded, a mute point I guess...

I downloaded this one...
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/down...o=file&id=1901
I'm waiting until I'm "in port" before I install it however....
I'll dig for the other one you mentioned.


Thanks for the mod suggestion...

Barracuda

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by BarracudaUAK

As far as an "Attack Map" is concerned... "In the real world" could be a piece of paper (maybe graph paper?), with a 'mark' in the center, a ruler, and a 360deg protractor (preferably one with a short ruler attached at the center, seen a few of these).

The 'mark' would be my sub. When a bearing is called out by radar/sonar, I can mark it down, and then 'order', i.e. set the bearing on the dial, when range is called, by stadimeter/radar/sonar, I can measure with my ruler to that distance, and mark/draw a line, and order/set dial to the range, do that twice, deduce speed and bearing, and order/set the appropriate dials....
(I would love to have all of the "tools" on the navigation map on the in game "attack map" too!)
I can then look at the TDC/PK and say ok, it says shoot X degrees, so I can place my ruler (or swing the one that is attached to the protractor) over that bearing, and say ok, I agree/don't agree with that. (Mimicking the "line" on the in-game attack map.)


Barracuda

Actually the submarine had a chart table, never a hand held map. This table was clear, with a lighted "pip" representing the sub position driven under the table to follow sub movement. The table was permanently mounted in the control room (the game sub interior is pretty accurate on this one) and usually referred to as "the plot."

Firing procedures involved in getting a TDC/PK target bearing from the TDC operator and comparing it with the periscope bearing. If they were different then the TDC solution wasn't accurate and you didn't shoot. This is pretty well reproduced by our attack map, which shows the position of the real target and the position of the PK target. If they are different then it's good not to shoot. But at no time did anybody plot an attack with a hand held piece of paper.

Granted, they didn't get it completely right. But what they did was really darned good for the primitive computer systems we had nine years ago and for the slightly less primitive systems we have now.

You also have to realize that the game production methods are just broken. The programmers could be working on a first person shooter or a puzzle game next week. They don't know much about submarines and certainly don't have our deep understanding of how things are supposed to work. They have unrealistically tight schedules, no incentive to fix problems after you buy the game, and are just overhead expenses to the game company.

Then you get really stupid stuff, like crewmember special abilities, ability to call in air strikes or command surface units. You really have to wonder what the developers were thinking sometimes. In spite of all that they got it right far more often than we're inclined to give them credit for.

[BarracudaUAK]

Originally Posted by BarracudaUAK

As far as an "Attack Map" is concerned... "In the real world" could be a piece of paper (maybe graph paper?), with a 'mark' in the center, a ruler, and a 360deg protractor (preferably one with a short ruler attached at the center, seen a few of these).

The 'mark' would be my sub. When a bearing is called out by radar/sonar, I can mark it down, and then 'order', i.e. set the bearing on the dial, when range is called, by stadimeter/radar/sonar, I can measure with my ruler to that distance, and mark/draw a line, and order/set dial to the range, do that twice, deduce speed and bearing, and order/set the appropriate dials....
(I would love to have all of the "tools" on the navigation map on the in game "attack map" too!)
I can then look at the TDC/PK and say ok, it says shoot X degrees, so I can place my ruler (or swing the one that is attached to the protractor) over that bearing, and say ok, I agree/don't agree with that. (Mimicking the "line" on the in-game attack map.)

..

Barracuda

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Actually the submarine had a chart table, never a hand held map. This table was clear, with a lighted "pip" representing the sub position driven under the table to follow sub movement. The table was permanently mounted in the control room (the game sub interior is pretty accurate on this one) and usually referred to as "the plot."

Firing procedures involved in getting a TDC/PK target bearing from the TDC operator and comparing it with the periscope bearing. If they were different then the TDC solution wasn't accurate and you didn't shoot. This is pretty well reproduced by our attack map, which shows the position of the real target and the position of the PK target. If they are different then it's good not to shoot. But at no time did anybody plot an attack with a hand held piece of paper.

Granted, they didn't get it completely right. But what they did was really darned good for the primitive computer systems we had nine years ago and for the slightly less primitive systems we have now.
...

I wasn't saying that they did use a hand held piece of paper, I'm simply saying that you could, in a pinch, use a map ("piece of paper") to "visualize" your attack.

And double check the TDC numbers, with the "hand-held TDC". (Is-was?)

My question is this, when you refer to "the plot", are you referring to the "table" next to the planesmen, helmsman and the guy that is labled (in the stock game) as the "helmsman", (who takes over the "chief engineer" slot from SH3, the guy that relays your maneuvering orders)?

Or are you referring to the clear topped table/bench located in the Conning Tower, next to the 3D model of the TDC?

I have been on a Gato before, but it has been a long while...
I don't remember if the Conning Tower was open when I was there... I remember looking through the scope though...

Originally Posted by BarracudaUAK

...
I downloaded this one...
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/down...o=file&id=1901
I'm waiting until I'm "in port" before I install it however....
I'll dig for the other one you mentioned.
...

I grabbed the Radar Range Rings, and Bearing Lines mod, using that with no trouble.


I had found the Digital Radar Readout mod you mentioned, and I tried it... Works fine.
I also tried the mod that I posted the link to.

It works, but I get really low frame-rates when I'm at the 3d TDC and the radar station, almost to the point I can't use the radar. Hard to use when the labels don't pop up to tell me "yes this does something".
I had to press a station hotkey 3 times to get it to move me somewhere else, then the lag went away...

I upgraded my video cards about a week ago to R9s. Every other aspect of the game is even smoother than before... So I removed the mod, I'll try it again later after I get the Large address aware patch to actually "take". (Fallout New Vegas mod/patch to set the LAA won't work either... gotta check for a work-around.) And see if that helps.

I'll start on the Menu_1024_768.ini and see if I can:
1: Get the Bearing seperate from the Range.
2: Seperate them all down the right side of the periscope view
and
3: Work on adding them to the map/attack map.

If I get it working, do you want me to post the tweaks here so you can grab them?

I've modded other games that have all thier "Ps and Qs" in the same file, and I've tweaked SH3's .ini before, so I'm not concerned about diving into this mess.
(I'm going to dive in anyway, just wondering if you want to see the results...)

Barracuda

[propbeanie]

If the LAA won't take, it might be because the 'target' file is "read only". Check its Properties.

[BarracudaUAK]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

If the LAA won't take, it might be because the 'target' file is "read only". Check its Properties.

I was pretty sure it wasn't read only, but I double checked, and it isn't...

I found and applied the Linux/WINE work-around for the Fallout New Vegas 4GB patch (since it and SH4 are both through steam), and the SH4 4GB/LAA patch runs, but tells me that sh4.exe is an unknown version. So no progress on that front...

And no progress on messing with the .ini, as I've been working most of the day...
Hopefully I'll get to at least look at it before I fall asleep at my PC...

Barracuda

[Rockin Robbins]

Very interesting. I used Large Address Aware in Linux and it worked great with WINE. It is changing the file header of SH4.exe, so the file has to be write enabled. LAA doesn't care what kind of file it is or what version it is as long as it's an EXE file

The problem with working on the Menu_1024_768.ini file is that when you're done you have a very personal mod you really can't share with anyone else. The exception would be in a supermod, like FOTRS Ultimate where all the parts are already crafted to work together. So I'd be interested in whatever you come up with. Let me know where you've made changes and I'll incorporate them into a FOTRS Ultimate plugin mod!

A special curse on the developers who thought a one size fits all super-mega configuration file was somehow appropriate!

[propbeanie]

You could try it BarracudaUAK with both files in the same folder, and see what happens...

... and do you have Net 2 or higher installed somehow in Wine?

[BarracudaUAK]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Very interesting. I used Large Address Aware in Linux and it worked great with WINE. It is changing the file header of SH4.exe, so the file has to be write enabled. LAA doesn't care what kind of file it is or what version it is as long as it's an EXE file

The problem with working on the Menu_1024_768.ini file is that when you're done you have a very personal mod you really can't share with anyone else. The exception would be in a supermod, like FOTRS Ultimate where all the parts are already crafted to work together. So I'd be interested in whatever you come up with. Let me know where you've made changes and I'll incorporate them into a FOTRS Ultimate plugin mod!

A special curse on the developers who thought a one size fits all super-mega configuration file was somehow appropriate!

Originally Posted by propbeanie

You could try it BarracudaUAK with both files in the same folder, and see what happens...

... and do you have Net 2 or higher installed somehow in Wine?

Propbeanie,

NOTE: a Wine "Prefix" is a directory that 'mimics' a Windows drive, with a registry, a "Windows", "Program Files" and other needed directories and files (all redirecting to linux files).
You can have multiple "Prefixes", each tailored to a specific game if you need them...

Yes, I have .dotnet 2.0 installed in a 32bit wine prefix. I also have a separate "prefix", with dot net 4.5. I run most of my 32bit games/programs (S3D for example) via the prefix with Dotnet 2.0.
I tried running it in the same directory as SH4.exe, with the same results it gave me the first time...

Window with title "SH4.exe 4Gb patch"

"This program cannot patch the installed version of SH4.exe because of the following reason:

<steam directory>\Silent Hunters Wolves of the Pacific\sh4.exe: unknown version."

Any my only "option" is to click "OK".

RR,
I've made a mod folder to test, so when I get something "sudo" workable, I'll post the changes.

Initially, I'm aiming for the least amount of tweaking. No major changes to interface, just a "bearing" tool.

Then I'll work on adding it to the attack map separately, so I can post the changes individually.

I did take a look last night before I went to sleep, and I know where the parts are I need to change, I just need to find where they hid the U-boat dial entries so I can test with the least amount of "new" parts.
Even if it doesn't "fit" the fleet boats "decor". It would pull from "stock" items, thereby reducing the chance for conflicts.

Barracuda

P.S. Any chance I could make the necessary changes with a hex-editor? I've got a few of those installed.

[propbeanie]

Have you tried the NTCore version?

http://www.ntcore.com/4gb_patch.php

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by BarracudaUAK

P.S. Any chance I could make the necessary changes with a hex-editor? I've got a few of those installed.

The best tool for the Menu_1024_768.ini is a text editor, of which we have a million of in Linux. But this file is entirely plain text. Yes, you could use a hex editor but why? Usually I use gedit.

[BarracudaUAK]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

The best tool for the Menu_1024_768.ini is a text editor, of which we have a million of in Linux. But this file is entirely plain text. Yes, you could use a hex editor but why? Usually I use gedit.

I was actually referring to the SH4.exe, to set the LAA.....
I'm using Kwrite to edit the .ini file. Color coded entries and all....



I'm doing a bit more digging the in the the Menu_1024_768.ini, and I figured the best place to note changes would be to compare the SH3 Menu...ini and see what the changes were.



Barracuda.

[BarracudaUAK]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

Have you tried the NTCore version?

http://www.ntcore.com/4gb_patch.php

Thanks for the link propbeanie, I downloaded it, and the patch ran...

It made a copy of SH4.exe and then patched it. I started SH4 and it runs.
I'll have to try loading a save and testing it out... I'm not "in port" at the moment, so I'll have to retest the radar mod a bit later... I patched it after I got home from work, so it was late, and I was tired...


As far as the Menu ini. I have an idea as to what I want to try, but things have been busy so I haven't actually had time to do it.
Mostly I get to look at the files, have an epiphany , then dig some more only to realize, "no, that ain't it" , and then dig some more...
Only to have another "epiphany" about 2 hours later while I'm doing something completely unrelated when I am nowhere near my PC to check it out.

Then I get home and I'm too tired to actually wade through it all and try to keep it all straight, knowing that if I embark on this journey at this time, a typo will result in... .

But I am approaching this mod like my others, investigate, plan everything (even went so far, for a few mods, as to make a spreadsheet documenting the changes I was going to do), then when I'm satisfied, actually start work.
I would say this one is sill in the "planning" stages.

Barracuda

P.S. I think this post has more smilies than any other post I've ever made...

[BarracudaUAK]

Well, I finally got around to digging some more (yet again), and I think some things may be hard coded...

I don't actually see anything that sets an entry as being for a U-boat, or a Fleet boat...

So this is stalled.

I guess I'll just keep doing it the way I have been, jumping between stations...


Propbeanie, thanks for the link, all is working smooth so far with the LAA patch.

Barracuda