SH4 escort question?

Fifi · 03-12-19, 07:28 AM

Very simple:

How can an escort detect you from 800/900m when you are submerged and all stopped with silent running on, just waiting?

No matter if at Periscope depth with no raised scope, or even 50m depth?

Do they have Japanese kind of medium aboard?

Calm sea or heavy sea without difference?

Very very rarely i can remain undetected, so i suspect it has to do with the escort skill (noob/veteran/elite) not to say elite can see you wherever you are or staying...

I’m not sure in reality Japanese escorts were that good at detecting sub all stopped from hundreds meters away.
They don’t in SH3/SH5, but they do in SH4...

propbeanie · 03-12-19, 07:44 AM

Depends upon the mod. Some mods negate the effect of the thermocline, others accentuate it. Some give the escorts superman hearing, others make them deaf. The settings for Elite, Veteran, Competent, etc for the crew skill, is also influenced by CFG files. A whole bunch of variables that can be adjusted. "Silent Running" really isn't so silent. The older the boat, the more noise it made, and you might have a shaft bearing going bad, or Bernard is back in the galley banging on the pipes,

Gertrude the mascot cat just sneezed... If you're still in Ralles Mod Pack, add-in that Tokko's Revenge that CaptainScurvy put in with his OTC, and you'll really find the escorts now have x-ray vision from 16,000 yards, and not just 11,500...

Fifi · 03-12-19, 10:03 AM

Yeah, i had that with TMO 2.5 alone (plenty of times) FOTRS V1.3 (few times) and lately in Ralles Real Soup (few times also).
Not in FOTRSU, you know why...(it’s not fine tuned)

I didn’t check what kind of DD skill found me even stopped at 900m, but i’m Quite sure it’s an elite.
When you get 2 or 3 of those guys upon you (like in TMO) no matter what you do, you are dead. Not really fun, nor really historically accurate imho.
With only 1 elite among couple of normals, you can survive (as i did) and it’s enough though.

After numerous patrols in Ralles (it’s the RSRDC campaign layer?) i think it’s very well balanced and it seems there aren’t too many elite DDs.

I hope in future FOTRSU there will not be too many elites...one per convoy should be enough!

In real life, i always thought a DD couldn’t detect a sub when all stopped below the thermal layer. Elite or not...

propbeanie · 03-12-19, 11:51 AM

There is always a "signature" of a submarine. Sort of like with camouflage paint, if you are patient enough, and look closely, you can see it, but it is definitely more difficult, and under certain circumstances nearly invisible, so the crew skill plays an important part. What we've been trying to do with FotRSU is to have it to where the Japanese are lackadaisical with their convoy protection early and only a few are "skilled" at their trade. Then about mid to late 42 they get concerned and start paying attention, but only a few are highly skilled. Then they get serious, and skilled by the end of 1943 through 1944. Then, since they are being rapidly eliminated with torpedoes and don't have the talent pool to fill vacancies, they get young and unskilled mixed with elite veterans, if you follow what I'm saying. Most of the mods have the skill level of the AI the same throughout the war.

Trying to balance all the different aspects of the AI, along with the skill level of the individual ships, which is done mostly in the campaign files, has been difficult. We can test a few scenarios prior to release of a version, but as has happened, there are highly-skilled airplanes everywhere in one version with ships that are just right. Then the next release, the planes are good, but now the ships are dum-dums. Then the next you have dum-dum planes falling from the sky ~and~ dum-sum ships. This last version, we turned up one AI, and lowered another. When you tweak the AI for the enemy, the sub suffers. When you adjust it for the sub, the enemy AI suffers. We hope this next mix will be really close, with the escorts maybe a bit too tough for most, but we'll see what happens, and be ready to adjust.

Bleiente did a really good job tweaking TMO and RSRDC with OTC. It is very playable as-is.

Fifi · 03-12-19, 01:19 PM

Yes it must be very hard to tweak and fine tune the AI behavior.
It’s not only in the Sim file...because i already tried to adjust things in this file without very good results. Many more factors seems to be effective elsewhere

You are right with Bleiente. His mod is my SH4 favorite up to now, i can survive through it with very good results even if sometimes it can be damn hard.
Everything is well balanced, never boring, each patrol a very nice entertainment.

Can’t wait to see next FOTRSU raising the flag!

Armistead · 03-12-19, 09:40 PM

Are you being pinged? In the game, it's sort of like sonar is always on, except it only becomes active to your ears if you fall within the cone.

03-12-19, 07:28 AM	#1
Fifi Navy Seal Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: France Posts: 5,733 Downloads: 456 Uploads: 0	SH4 escort question? Very simple: How can an escort detect you from 800/900m when you are submerged and all stopped with silent running on, just waiting? No matter if at Periscope depth with no raised scope, or even 50m depth? Do they have Japanese kind of medium aboard? Calm sea or heavy sea without difference? Very very rarely i can remain undetected, so i suspect it has to do with the escort skill (noob/veteran/elite) not to say elite can see you wherever you are or staying... I’m not sure in reality Japanese escorts were that good at detecting sub all stopped from hundreds meters away. They don’t in SH3/SH5, but they do in SH4... __________________ https://www.mediafire.com/file/hc2bu...N_V5.6.7z/file

03-12-19, 07:44 AM	#2
propbeanie CTD - it's not just a job Join Date: May 2016 Location: One hour from Music City USA! Posts: 9,749 Downloads: 439 Uploads: 2	Depends upon the mod. Some mods negate the effect of the thermocline, others accentuate it. Some give the escorts superman hearing, others make them deaf. The settings for Elite, Veteran, Competent, etc for the crew skill, is also influenced by CFG files. A whole bunch of variables that can be adjusted. "Silent Running" really isn't so silent. The older the boat, the more noise it made, and you might have a shaft bearing going bad, or Bernard is back in the galley banging on the pipes, Gertrude the mascot cat just sneezed... If you're still in Ralles Mod Pack, add-in that Tokko's Revenge that CaptainScurvy put in with his OTC, and you'll really find the escorts now have x-ray vision from 16,000 yards, and not just 11,500... __________________ "...and bollocks to the naysayer/s" - Jimbuna

03-12-19, 10:03 AM	#3
Fifi Navy Seal Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: France Posts: 5,733 Downloads: 456 Uploads: 0	Yeah, i had that with TMO 2.5 alone (plenty of times) FOTRS V1.3 (few times) and lately in Ralles Real Soup (few times also). Not in FOTRSU, you know why...(it’s not fine tuned) I didn’t check what kind of DD skill found me even stopped at 900m, but i’m Quite sure it’s an elite. When you get 2 or 3 of those guys upon you (like in TMO) no matter what you do, you are dead. Not really fun, nor really historically accurate imho. With only 1 elite among couple of normals, you can survive (as i did) and it’s enough though. After numerous patrols in Ralles (it’s the RSRDC campaign layer?) i think it’s very well balanced and it seems there aren’t too many elite DDs. I hope in future FOTRSU there will not be too many elites...one per convoy should be enough! In real life, i always thought a DD couldn’t detect a sub when all stopped below the thermal layer. Elite or not... __________________ https://www.mediafire.com/file/hc2bu...N_V5.6.7z/file

03-12-19, 11:51 AM	#4
propbeanie CTD - it's not just a job Join Date: May 2016 Location: One hour from Music City USA! Posts: 9,749 Downloads: 439 Uploads: 2	There is always a "signature" of a submarine. Sort of like with camouflage paint, if you are patient enough, and look closely, you can see it, but it is definitely more difficult, and under certain circumstances nearly invisible, so the crew skill plays an important part. What we've been trying to do with FotRSU is to have it to where the Japanese are lackadaisical with their convoy protection early and only a few are "skilled" at their trade. Then about mid to late 42 they get concerned and start paying attention, but only a few are highly skilled. Then they get serious, and skilled by the end of 1943 through 1944. Then, since they are being rapidly eliminated with torpedoes and don't have the talent pool to fill vacancies, they get young and unskilled mixed with elite veterans, if you follow what I'm saying. Most of the mods have the skill level of the AI the same throughout the war. Trying to balance all the different aspects of the AI, along with the skill level of the individual ships, which is done mostly in the campaign files, has been difficult. We can test a few scenarios prior to release of a version, but as has happened, there are highly-skilled airplanes everywhere in one version with ships that are just right. Then the next release, the planes are good, but now the ships are dum-dums. Then the next you have dum-dum planes falling from the sky ~and~ dum-sum ships. This last version, we turned up one AI, and lowered another. When you tweak the AI for the enemy, the sub suffers. When you adjust it for the sub, the enemy AI suffers. We hope this next mix will be really close, with the escorts maybe a bit too tough for most, but we'll see what happens, and be ready to adjust. Bleiente did a really good job tweaking TMO and RSRDC with OTC. It is very playable as-is. __________________ "...and bollocks to the naysayer/s" - Jimbuna

03-12-19, 01:19 PM	#5
Fifi Navy Seal Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: France Posts: 5,733 Downloads: 456 Uploads: 0	Yes it must be very hard to tweak and fine tune the AI behavior. It’s not only in the Sim file...because i already tried to adjust things in this file without very good results. Many more factors seems to be effective elsewhere You are right with Bleiente. His mod is my SH4 favorite up to now, i can survive through it with very good results even if sometimes it can be damn hard. Everything is well balanced, never boring, each patrol a very nice entertainment. Can’t wait to see next FOTRSU raising the flag! __________________ https://www.mediafire.com/file/hc2bu...N_V5.6.7z/file

03-12-19, 09:40 PM	#6
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,864 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	Are you being pinged? In the game, it's sort of like sonar is always on, except it only becomes active to your ears if you fall within the cone. __________________ You see my dog don't like people laughing. He gets the crazy idea you're laughing at him. Now if you apologize like I know you're going to, I might convince him that you really didn't mean it.