Lengths of the Merchant ships

[BuddyFromMoon]

Here are the lenghts of the merchant ships for calculating accurate speed

Passanger liners:
- Huge European liner - 173.7M
- Large old Passanger liner - 137.4M
- Small Passanger liner - 79.2M
- Modern Passanger liner - 130.1M
- Troop transport - 152M

Tankers:
- Large modern tanker - 159.7M
- Medium old tanker - 113.1M
- Small old tanker - 76.2M
- T3 tanker - 190M
- British medium old tanker - 91.5M
- Large German tanker - 190M

Freighters:
- Large modern composite freighter - 143.2M
- Large old split freighter - 135.6M
- Medium European composite freighter - 121.9M
- Medium Modern composite freighter - 103.6M
- Medium modern split freighter - 101.2M
- Medium old composite freighter - 108.8M
- Medium old split freighter - 121.9M
- Small modern composite freighter - 80.7M
- Small old split freighter - 86.8M
- Small split freighter - 86.6M
- Coastal composite freighter - 80.77M
- Liberty cargo - 147M
- Victory cargo - 139.6M
- Hog island type A freighter - 120M
- Old raked bow split freighter - 120M
- Medium modern passanger/freighter - 105M
- Submarine tender - 201M

Good hunting!

[BuddyFromMoon]

Does anyone want the lengths of the warships too? Let me know if you do

[ColonelSandersLite]

Originally Posted by BuddyFromMoon

Does anyone want the lengths of the warships too?

Yes please.

[TorpX]

You might want to mention whether these are for stock ships or not. I am guessing that mods change at least some of the ships in the game.

Oh, and welcome aboard!

[ColonelSandersLite]

Edit; Now irrelevant, see below.

[ColonelSandersLite]

Actually, here's a program gutted wrote to get them all, and since it'll get them from your current install, it's pretty much garaunteed to work with whatever mods you're using.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/down...o=file&id=1602

[BuddyFromMoon]

Good evening fellow sailors!

Thanks ColonelSandersLite, but i prefer this method
Attention sailors! All of these ships lengths are taken from the stock game! This list also includes the lengths of the ships from the 1.5 patch or "U-Boat missions"

Here are the lengths of the Warships:

Battleships:
- King George V Battleship - 244M
- New Mexico Battleship - 190M
- Tennessee Battleship - 190M
- Tennessee Battleship - 190.2M
- Nevada Battleship - 190.2M
- Colorado Battleship - 190.2M
- Pennsylvania Battleship - 190.2M
- West Virginia Battleship - 190M
- North Carolina Battleship - 220M
- Iowa Battleship - 270.4M
- Kongo Battleship - 220M
- Fuso Battleship - 212M
- Ise Battleship - 220M
- Ise Battleship (Late War) - 220M
- Yamato Battleship - 263M
- Pocket Battleship - 183M

Heavy Cruisers:
- Takao Heavy Cruiser - 204M
- Furutaka Heavy Cruiser - 188M
- Maya Heavy Cruiser - 204M
- Mogami Heavy Cruiser - 200M
- Northampton Heavy Cruiser - 183M
- Baltimore Heavy Cruiser - 205M
- Kent Heavy Cruiser - 183M

Light Cruisers:
- Dido Light Cruiser - 156M
- Fiji Light Cruiser - 169M
- Brooklyn Light Cruiser - 185M
- Cleveland Light Cruiser - 185M
- Omaha Light Cruiser - 168M
- Kuma Light Cruiser - 163M
- Agano Light Cruiser - 175M
- Naka Light Cruiser - 162M

Aircraft Carriers:
- Akitsu Escort Carrier - 152M
- Fleet Carrier - 250M
- Shokaku Fleet Carrier - 256M
- Hiryu Fleet Carrier - 223.3M
- Taiho Fleet Carrier - 253M
- Casablanca Escort Carrier - 156M
- Bogue Escort Carrier - 152M
- Attacker Escort Carrier - 152M
- Chitose Seaplane Tender - 183M

Destroyers:
- Akizuki Destroyer - 135M
- Shiratsuyu Destroyer - 108M
- Fubuki Destroyer - 118.5M
- Mutsuki Destroyer - 102M
- Minekaze Destroyer - 102.6M
- Asashio Destroyer - 118M
- V&W Destroyer - 95M
- Fletcher Destroyer - 115M
- Tribal Destroyer - 115M
- J Class Destroyer - 108.5M
- Clemson Destroyer - 95M
- Somers Destroyer - 116M

Destroyer Escort:
- Evarts Destroyer Escort - 89.5M
- Buckley Destroyer Escort - 93.2M
- JC Butler Destroyer Escort - 93.3M

Corvettes:
- Flower Corvette - 60.6M

Sloop-of-war:
- Black Swan Sloop - 91.3M
- Elite Black Swan Sloop - 91.3M

Frigates:
- River Class Frigate - 91.5M

Other warships:
- Large Minelayer - 123.4M
- Minesweeper - 70M
- Subchaser - 65M

Good hunting! And good luck hiding from anti-submarine ships! Juicy convoys to everyone!

[CapnScurvy]

Those length figures come from the game's configuration files (.cfg).....found in each of the specific ship files of the "Data/Sea" folder.

The problem in using them is with the size of the view you'll be trying to measure these lengths with. The in-game views (periscope/TBT) are not accurately portrayed to give these dimensions an accurate measurement. It's like trying to measure with a yard stick that's not 36 inches long. What does it matter what the given lengths are if the tool to measure with is inaccurate?!

Read the "Discussion" section of the Optical Targeting Correction mod for details (you'll find the explanations further down the first post, in the OTC thread). I'm always available to answer your questions.

[BuddyFromMoon]

Yes, those lengths come from there Well, i don't know, but i've used this method for a long time now and i've never missed my target, always hit the ship in the center, never miss, unless the torpedo is dud. I'd say this method is accurate enough to take a ship to the bottom and i'm very pleased with it. And this method is much more reliable than "Auto speed" in TDC or guessing.

Good hunting! Happy New Year sailors!

[ColonelSandersLite]

While those lengths are good enough to get a speed estimate from a stop, Scurvy is interested in distance/AOB as well I think.

You actually can still use the stock optics for this purpose, you just have to figure out the correct constants to use in the formulas to compensate for the FOV differences between real life and the way the sim displays with your specific optics & screen resolution combination.

[CapnScurvy]

What I'm talking about is the width of the view you have when at the periscope. The stock game (and any other mod not using OTC) gives you a width of 36 degrees from side to side (up to down) using the various resolutions a player may choose with his computer system......except one, the 1280x1024 resolution gives you a 38 degree width. The width is commonly called "Field of View" (FoV).

To correctly read an authentic dimension, the FoV should have a 32 degree width. When measuring a degree of angle using a 32 degree FoV, one degree of angle at 1000 yard distance subtends 52.4 feet distance. This means the object that exactly fills the Field of View at 1000 yards distance is just under 1677 feet wide (or long, which ever you like to put it). The game measures this same object at it's incorrect FoV of 36 degrees at 1886 feet long. That's an inaccurate measurement of 209 feet within a target range of only 1000 yards! The inaccuracy is 314 ft for those using the 1280x1024 resolution. Again, I'm talking abut the periscope view. The TBT FoV is worse yet!

My point is, if your getting results that are satisfactory to you in measurements, then perhaps it's not because your measurements are spot on (because I know they aren't). But rather, the game is more forgiving than you think. As my dad told me, "Even a blind hog will find an acorn once in a while".

[ColonelSandersLite]

Well, here's the thing. Buddy's interest is measuring relative speed (which is absolute from a dead stop) by timing the time it takes the ship to cross the wire. The fov inaccuracy is irrelevant for his purpose simply because this method measures time, not an angle. It should be noted though that this method is of highly suspect historical accuracy (at least for a submerged sub) as it requires the submarine to be stopped. For reference the formula is:

Target Speed in Knots = 1.944 * ( length in meters / time to cross a bearing in seconds )
or
Target Speed in Knots = 0.592 * ( length in feet / time to cross a bearing in seconds )




Getting accurate measurements without fixing the fov works like this.

As far as measuring a distance, the formula I get from a navy source for a the periscope on high power is Range = 76.2 X Masthead Height or Length (in feet) / Divisions

The part that the FOV issue makes suspect is the constant 76.2. You can come up with a working constant for any combination using some measuring and algebra. For example, supposing we know that a Conte Verde Liner with a length of 570 feet is 5275 yards away and takes up 10 divisions (this is actually what I got using TMO 2.5 with a 1080p res).

Constant to use = 5275 * 10 / 570 = 92.54

So supposing you're running tmo at 1080p, this formula will work for the scope at high zoom (assuming the Conte Verde's length is actually what the game files list):
Range = 92.54 X Masthead Height or Length (in feet) / Divisions

Of course, in that thread (I only skimmed, I must admit) you talk about errors such as the POV not being in the right spot and etc, but this will *only* effect issues where you are actually measuring the target's length in degrees and not where you are measuring the target's transit time afik.



Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in any way though.

[CapnScurvy]

When figuring the time a specific measured object takes to pass a specific point, the accuracy in the speed calculation comes from expecting the measured length is actually the true length of the object. The game does not provide an accurate true length of objects in it's optical views.

Using a formula that expects a yard to be equal to 3 feet, or 36 inches, is fine when our world is perceived to be as expected. However, using the same real life formula in a game world that doesn't recognize a yard to equal 3 feet will produce inaccurate results......for either finding distance, or measuring amount of time a specific measured object passes by. If the measurement is off, so are the results. The same is true if the time piece used doesn't truly measure time as a single minute equals 60 seconds. You'll not get an accurate speed calculation if the time piece errors in it's keeping accurate time.

Your making an assumption that the game provides real life optical sizes......it does not. Nor, does it provide accurate length or height measurements that could be used with an accurate visually rendered world. It doesn't do that either. There's folks that have changed measurements just for the sake of changing measurements, in order to throw off an accurate measurement (they think its more "realistic" that way)!?! As an example, TMO has the Hiryu mast height set at 20 meters tall (it's the same mast height measurement that came with the stock SH4 1.0 version game). You'll always get a stadimeter found range to be off by half what it should be using 20 meters for it's mast height with TMO. I don't think Ducimus did this intentionally (like some others) but it is what it is.

Those ship lengths found in the game files were never implemented in the game for a reason.......the devs knew their optical system was flawed but they didn't have time to fix the problem before UbiSoft came-a-knocking to release what they had. So they put the Telemeter Divisions (lens hashmarks) onto the scopes for eye candy, and kept the ship lengths out of the Recognition Manual. They fixed some of the ship mast height measurements with their patches and went on to do UbiSoft's bidding for another try at a U-Boat game, leaving the Fleet Boat simulation to fend for itself.

[ColonelSandersLite]

Originally Posted by CapnScurvy

Your making an assumption that the game provides real life optical sizes......it does not.

No, I *KNOW* it does not, hence the reason I correct for it when measuring distance as stated above.


However, and I can't stress this enough:

The FOV issue has no relevence when considering the speed formula. NONE.

The reason for this is that the apparent distance to the target does not enter into the equation at all in any way shape or form. This is why the formula works without modification regardless of the range. Examine the formula in more detail if you don't believe me, the math bears this fact out 100% without doubt. To be sure that the point is clear, I'll restate it another way: The speed formula does not require *apparent length* (which is what the fov issue fouls up) but requires *true length* instead.


I haven't personally confirmed that the lengths are inaccurate to some degree as well, but I do believe you 100%, having used the stadimeter before. Personally, I'm not sure I buy that the sub commanders had 100% accurate lengths for warships at least since these would have been the result of espionage. Since most of those merchant designs predate the war, I wouldn't be surprised if we actually did have pretty reliable dimension data for them though. They where pulling into ports all over the pacific where we could just discretely measure them at will.


Regardless, innacurate lengths will undoubtably give innacurate results no matter what you're measuring, the only thing that can be done about that would be to hand measure a list of accurate lengths I believe, which I think you've done in your mod.



Truly though, if you want to argue against the speed formula the real point of attack is that these boats couldn't maintain a fixed position very well. They could hold a depth without power if everything was set up perfectly, but since the weight of the vessel changes throughout the day (fuel and ammo being major concerns with garbage and waste being lesser issues, all of which lighten the boat, while crew moving about the ship change its balance), this cannot be relied on. Still, this doesn't change the facts that if the known ship length is accurate, and the boat can maintain a fixed position, then speed can be determined without knowing the fov of the optics you're using to get said measurement.

Personally, I'm more interested in distance measurements though, hence the reason I've done the math to get a working formula.

[CapnScurvy]

Your quite right, the size of the object doesn't matter as long as the "scale representation" of it is consistent. A ship passing a specific line will take the same amount of time to pass, whether the view is enlarged or not. Timing of the passing is constant, no matter what the view.