Realism- and gameplay-related hardcode fixes for SH3.EXE

Originally Posted by h.sie

@PapaKoilo: I have GWX / NYGM hybrid and have a lot of zig Zag because I use LGN1's zigzag mod.

So it is self explanatory thing why you have to stay in such frequent radio contact with BDU.

LGN1 zigzag mod will deffinetly cause a PITA to most Captains I already feel that

On the other hand, zig zag course wasn't very economic regarding fuel wasn't it ? Not to mention FORCED course changes in high seas where ships had to turn their bows to incoming waves, thus deviating from original destination course..

so does that mean if I'm not using LGN's zig zag mod, do I still have to send reports hourly ?

Originally Posted by h.sie

Do you have any historical information that the rule of hourly homing signals was not practiced?

I coudn't find any information on aprooval or deny of hourly homing signals. But It's not that hard to imagine the decisions of captains that were actually shadowing a convoy. What he really wanted was to maintain a contact with the convoy (visual/hydrophone), checking it's course/speed 2-3 times per 24 hours, thus minimizing chances of losing stealth and further consequencies.

I do also believe if the exact course or speed could not be reported due to bad visibility, u-boat radioman could send position of the u-boat istelf with estimated course of a convoy, moreover as we know that experienced sonarguys were able to read estimated speed of a ship by the noise of it's screw (RPM), it gave also some bonus for a u-boat to stay in the contact as long as possible..

[h.sie]

@PapaKilo: Good point. The problem: Currently, one can only use the "Send contact report" button, if one has visible contact to the convoy. Thus, the method of shadowing by hydrophone contact does not work. But LGN1 and me also discussed that point.

Maybe I can remove that restriction, so that shadowing by hydrophone contact is possible?

What do you think about that, LGN1 and Stiebler?

[Hitman]

Despite not being able myself to test this, there are already several things I can comment considering the feedback already posted.

1.- First and foremost, it is obvious that by bringing the game closer to reality in terms of tactics to be employed, we are hitting against the game limitations and there is a need to circumvent this. I'm taking about the visibility, and its hardcoded 20km limit in the game (No units are physically rendered beyond that, but they are detectable).

In real life, the Uboat would be overhauling/following the convoy at the very same visibility limit, constantly going in and out, and keeping contact. This is described by the UBoat Commander's handbooks as one of the most difficult and strenuous manevuers, and is therefore reserved to the captain -the better trained at that.

But as Stiebler has already said, in the game it is quite difficult to keep in touch with the convoy, while at the same time not being detected by the escorts. The main reason for this is that we need to stay too close when compared with real life, as we have a 16km limit (20km in some mods).

In my opinion, only a sensor workaround with the use of a proper 20km environment mod will allow correct results. Alternatively, a 16km mod with additional curve in the horizon and again revised sensors could work, but the first one is the better solution.

This obviously far exceeds H.Sie's scope, so I would recommend it to be developed by either active mod creators for their own mods (NYGM) or someone else to take the task for the finished ones (GWX, WAC)

A separate discussion of this issue in another thread is wellcomed.

2.- There seems to be some confussion between homing signal and radio reports. UBoats had both the ordinary radio we all know well, and a beacon/homing signal that emitted automatically each X minutes/hours. This was used to locate an uboat by another unit, and was used f.e. sometimes by the Milkcows to home the other uboats to them. This was also the method initially used to vector other uboats to the contact holder, but was progressively disregarded due to the risk of being counterdetected.

Then there are the radio reports, which are the method to report to BDU what has been found, and after that, appropiate only when the convoy changes course or speed noticeably -which again is not the same as doing a zig-zag in their leg-.

Hence, we can say that after the initial report of course and speed, the uboat would only do aditional radio reports about course or speed when either big changes are made, or he can confirm the values as correct. In the other ocasions, the contact holder would probably use the homing beacon signal.

In my opinion, the wolfpack should be able to intercept with just one initial report of course and speed, as long as it is accurate and the convoy doesn't change it -even if the player sends no more signals. The reason is that BDU and other uboats would calculate a plot with 1st contact, predict the course and run there. It is not uncommon when reading books to see that one uboat loses the convoy but another one finds it when raciing to intercept. Note that Uboats made a line abreast and when one detected a convoy, the others converged there, so if the convoy changes course it might stumble upon one of the other uboats vectoring in.


EDIT:

Here are the relevant sections from the UKH:

315.) While carrying out its own attack, the submarine must transmit regular and complete contact reports, according to the following headings:
a) The two first boats to make contact, acting as "contact holders," transmit complete hourly reports.
b) As long as the two first boats transmit contact reports, the other boats signal "made contact!" once only, as soon as they have reached the convoy, or, analogously, "lost contact!", using short signals in both cases.
c) If a "contact holder" fails to send reports for longer than 1 hours, another boat must take over. This must be done without waiting for orders.
d) If a "contact holder" loses contact, it must report as soon as possible the last position of the enemy, and his course and speed.
e) All boats which have been in contact with the convoy, and lost ground in consequence of their long stay underwater, or have been driven off, must also report their own position.
316.) The "contact holders" also operate as is best for the purposes of their attack. Do not endanger your own overhauling maneuver, and the success of the attack, by approaching too close, in order to obtain (more) accurate firing data.
317.) The arrangements for guiding further submarines to the spot are greatly facilitated by the emission of D/F signals by the submarine maintaining the contact. At intervals of half an hour, the "contact holder" sends out D/F signals and a wireless signal, on a long wave-length fixed by Headquarters, defining the D/F and the distance from the enemy, according to "Standing War Orders for Submarine Commanders" ("St.Kriegsbor.B.d.U."), either at the request of other submarines, or on orders of the "Home Submarine Command," or, in certain circumstances, on its own initiative, if such orders are not received in time, and there is reason to believe that there are other submarines about. If the commander decides to send out D/F signals on his own initiative, the other submarines should first be notified by means of a wireless message or signal on the submarine's short wave.
318.) The transmission of D/F signals, however, always creates an additional danger that the "contact holder" will be spotted; consequently:,
a) Do not ask for D/F signals if dead reckoning and visibility are good. b) Ask for D/F signals if the dead reckoning is wrong, visibility is very bad, or if nothing is sighted on the computed point of contact ("erkoppelter Treffpunkt").

[Stiebler]

I agree with Hitman, that the easiest solution to the shadowing problem is to require fewer contact reports. Perhaps 2-hourly, or even 3-hourly. However, still permit hourly signals, so that the shadower does not have to wait on the surface until the last moment, in order to send the necessary signal.

As Hitman also points out, what is written in the U-boat Commander's Handbook should be adapted for the limitations of the game. 'Compensatory realism' again!

Stiebler.

[h.sie]

@Hitman: We don't have the code infrastructure for "homing signals" in sh3. Thus, we use "contact report" button instead to mimick homing signals.

The AI-Subs we have so far, don't have an intelligent Kaleun on board who does his own decisions and calculations and communications with the BDU to find the convoy. The AI-Subs don't actively search the enemy, they only sit there and shoot at the enemy that comes in visible and gunnery range. In the current state, they NEED the course information the player provides in order to find the correct interception point.

[Hitman]

We don't have the code infrastructure for "homing signals" in sh3. Thus, we use "contact report" button instead to mimick homing signals.

I know, and it's OK to use the contact report, but then probably not on an hourly basis, since this causes trouble for the player -who isn't always able to do the report hourly due to the constraints in visibility-, and anyway in SH3 convoys do not change course so much as in real life (Even with LGN's excelellent script). That should compensate the lack of intelligent Kaleuns in the AI Uboats a bit better.

Part of the problem in helping is that I also do not know how you coded the Ai-Uboats, i.e. are they moved to a future convoy waypoint, or simply to an area calculated basing on the player's reports of speed and course?

Let's cooperate and buy the bloody SDK and source code from Ubi. That will end up all the troubles we have

[SquareSteelBar]

Originally Posted by h.sie

@Hitman, SSB: I cannot reproduce your problem. The former patch (V15G2) supported 5 different versions of sh3.exe, and the current Alpha-Test Mod supports the same 5 versions. I tested it with all 5 versions, all could be patched.

Only explaination: Wou have the 4GB patch applied. Try to remove the 4GB patch. If that doesn't work, please send me your sh3.exe and I'll try to locate the problem.

No 4GB patch. It's the well known sh3.exe from 'Reloaded' -> b7ad5f9d609fc60bf9410ec5ee7692df

And I've no prob with it since I use the STD version. I tried it yesterday to confirm Hitman's prob and it really didn't work - but I did an old mistake: I forgot to switch off the AntiVir Guard...

Tried it again today [Guard switched off] -> works like a charme...

@Hitman:
deactivate any AntiVirus/AntiMalware apps etc. and try again...

Alternatively I'll send you the patched file [with/without 4GB patch] if you want.

[Hitman]

@Hitman:
deactivate any AntiVirus/AntiMalware apps etc. and try again...

Alternatively I'll send you the patched file [with/without 4GB patch] if you want.

Weird, I have no antivirus or guard or whatever

[SquareSteelBar]

You're sailing without any defense?

[h.sie]

@Stiebler: I hope you did not change the settings of the WP_Visual Sensor. The Range 29999,0m is no more the current max. Range as usual, it's only a sign to activate my Sensor Fix for that specific sensor but not for other sensors (AI_Visual). The real range is 6000m. Also, do not change the range value in the .sim file of the VIIF type sub.

The Sensor patch was necessary to let the AI-subs see in dark GWX nights.

Additionally, during a convoy battle, there was a problem that the AI-Subs tended to first attack the escorts and then the merchants, what I didn't like. Since I still cannot change the AI directly, I patched the Sensor of the Subs so that they are completely blind for some escorts, with the result that they now attack more merchants than escorts. But this also varies from mission to mission because of the use of random numbers....

[Stiebler]

I have now completed a further campaign patrol and also the single mission. Both resulted in attacks by VIIF AI-U-boats! Explosions clearly visible on the ships with camera and periscope view!

There were big problems at first with the single-mission attack. Using default wind of 8 m/s, after 6-7 single missions, sooner or later my U-boat was always attacked during daylight while trying to hold contact.

After changing the Tribal destroyers to Flower corvettes, and crew competence of the escorts to 2 (was 3), and also the wind to 12 m/s, finally it was possible to maintain contact at hourly intervals all through the day. The result was a spectacular attack by probably several AI U-boats (impossible to count in the darkness), with seven convoy ships sunk (as well as my feeble one ship sunk).

Therefore I have to point up again the difficulty of sending hourly contacts on a convoy during good visibility and low winds. After checking the supplied mod files, it seems that the original NYGM sensors are being used (ie, not overwritten). The mod was tested by Hsie/LGN1 with GWX, which might explain the difference.

Incidentally, someone had a good idea in placing the AI U-boats 'torpedoes' (actually 21-inch shells) into brand-new files called shells2.dat/.sim/.zon, and the AI U-boats sensors into their own AI_sensors_WP.dat file. This solves all problems of incompatibility between super-mods. Also, use of the torpedo manual bearing and speed controls was an excellent idea too.

So congratulations, H.sie and LGN1.

But permit 2-3 hours between contact reports, please.

Stiebler.

[HanSolo78]

Originally Posted by Stiebler

Incidentally, someone had a good idea in placing the AI U-boats 'torpedoes' (actually 21-inch shells) into brand-new files called shells2.dat/.sim/.zon, and the AI U-boats sensors into their own AI_sensors_WP.dat file. This solves all problems of incompatibility between super-mods. Also, use of the torpedo manual bearing and speed controls was an excellent idea too.

So congratulations, H.sie and LGN1.

But permit 2-3 hours between contact reports, please.

Stiebler.

I have to second that.
Would be great to add your mod to other supermods... extra "torpedoe" cannon files and a different interval of 3 hours would be perfect!!

[h.sie]

@Stieber: GREAT!


I could try to tweak all AI_Visual sensors ONLY when they look at the player Uboat so that they cannot look more than , say, 10000 or 12000m, WITHOUT changing their behaviour for smaller distances or other Objects. WHat about that idea? Maybe possible?