"Die Letzte Hoffnung" CM:BN AAR - Now with 0% more community participation! - - Page 3

Narko · 08-13-12, 08:28 AM

2) Move on and play the next mission

Fincuan · 08-13-12, 08:33 AM

Move on to the next mission. The road was practically clear when you ran out of time.

Dowly · 08-13-12, 11:25 AM

Myeah, that's the option I'd vote as well.

And I thought a way to make it hurt me for being such an idiot:
Leifheim's 1.Kompanie & Behn's Panthers can't move for the first 15 turns
when the attack to the crossroads starts. This to simulate a delay for encoutering
tougher resistance than expected.

Oberon · 08-13-12, 02:12 PM

I'd go with option 2, and your idea for the attack on the crossroads is a viable one.

Dowly · 08-13-12, 05:51 PM

"Going to Town" (Part 1)

Situation

0600 7 August 1944

Kampfgruppe Magsburg is moving west along a side road to Chérencé-le-Roussel. Divisional scouts
took small arms fire while approaching the small village of Brouains; it can be assumed to be
occupied by enemy infantry. In order to allow the passage of the division along this road,
the enemy infantry must be eliminated.

The other half of the Kampfgruppe is clearing the road to the north in concert with this attack.

A light fog is starting to form. Visibility should start out at around 250m but will improve
as the day gets brighter.

Mission

Kampfgruppe Magsburg is to clear the town of Brouains of enemy forces no later than 0715 in
order to allow the division's advance to continue unhindered.

Friendly Forces

Your Kampfgruppe is leading with one motorized Panzergrenadier Company (2.Kompanie), supported
by the Kampfgruppe's Panzer IV platoon. This force will arrive in five minutes and is preceded
by a small reconnaissance element. You will be receiving a very limited amount of support
from the divisional 105mm artillery battery.

Enemy Forces

The enemy consists of American infantry, although little else is known about this position.
They should not receive any air support given the fog.

The terrain is interesting here. There is a ridge running through the map, from NW to SE.
This means I will be fighting downhill once I reach the outskirts of the village.

While I wait for the main force to get here, I send one of my Pumas to check the left flank
and a dismounted Puma crew is sent across the field to the west. If the right turns out clear,
I'll attack from there. Less hedgerows and the terrain should cover my approach through the field.

When playing with Crécy, we don't use 1st turn arty, so I had completely forgotten about it until
now. I give the Amis a wake up call by lobbing all 28 105mm rounds right smack middle of the village.

Aaaand they literally slam majority of the rounds right in the middle of the 172m area target marker.

The scouts report all clear, which is a bit surprising. As scouts, your job is to get shot at,
and frankly, I don't care about you, I got tanks. Na na naa! Erhm.. right, run up that hill
and see if someone is stupid enough to shoot you and reveal their position to me.

"Uh.. hello?" The scout team gets all the way to the buildings overlooking part of the village.

As everyone seems to be asleep, I send both 1. and 2.Platoon across the field, tagging along
are a team of pioneers for gardening duty and my forward observer.

Gardening duty.

2.Platoon secures the road, two Panzer IVs are called forward.

2.Platoon sends two squads to see what lies behind the hedgerows to the right, 1.Platoon send
their scouts to trace the steps of the dismounted Puma crew to the left.

I'm a bit terrified that this is going so well. Either this is an easy mission or all the Amis
are in the village and I have to fight for every house. I got some 100 81mm HE rounds my FO can
drop on them in 5 minutes' time, though.
The 3.Platoon marker should read 1.Platoon, btw.

Oberon · 08-13-12, 08:09 PM

Wo ist sie Ami?

I think you're going to have a Saving Private Ryan moment on entering that town, Amis in every window.

Either that, or the forward scout truppen that was sent to scope the town met the one American recon squad that was holding the whole town and fled in panic.

Judging by the way things are going for you, you'll find Tom Hanks in the middle of the town who will demolish your entire armoured outfit with a pistol.

Dowly · 08-14-12, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

Judging by the way things are going for you, you'll find Tom Hanks in the middle of the town who will demolish your entire armoured outfit with a pistol.

Dowly · 08-14-12, 06:55 AM

"Going to Town" (Part 2)

1.Plt sends scouts to double-check the route used by the Puma scouts.

Both sides of the road are clear, so I start moving both platoons forward.

A little while later, I finally spot my first enemy team. They are inside a 2-story building
in the center of the village.

And they are pretty good shots too.

The road is surely watched by either a Bazooka team or an ATG, so I have my pioneers blow holes
through the hedges, so my armor can drive up to the 1.Plt's position and provide overwatch from
there.

30 turns in and I feel like I have the upperhand. 1.Plt's position offers a good view to a part of
the village, I will probably concentrate my forces there. 2.Plt's area isn't ideal, but does have
a good LOS to the intersection and some parts of the town. I'm thinking of sending 1 squad from 2.Plt
to the white T-shaped building on the northwest side of the town. The building would provide a very good
line of fire to a big part of the town. But that might be too risky.

Dowly · 08-14-12, 09:41 AM

"Going to Town" (Part 3)

I've decided to launch the attack from the 1.Platoon's position, using the whole 2.Kompanie.
3. and 4.Platoon on their way to the front.

1.Plt begins to take fire from all around the town.

As more contacts keep popping up, I decide to have my mortars dump their rounds into the town.
Hopefully that'll soften them up and makes my life easier once I start the assault.

The men of 1.Plt can't keep up sufficient firepower, so I order the 4.Plt's MG42s to fix that.

And that they do, all enemy contacts are quickly pinned down. Unfortunately, it's too late for the 2/1.

I have the 3.Plt move forward to the hedgerows lining the road. When the time comes, they will be leading
the assault.

ATG position by the church. Luckily, it doesn't have very good firing lines, but then again neither does my Panzers.

The mortar barrage should start on the next turn and probably lasts for 2-3 turns. After that, I'll smoke the road
and order 3.Plt across. While the mortars are firing, I bring 2.Plt to join the rest of the Plts, due to the casualties
the 1.Plt took, I'm thinking of leaving them behind. I also ordered two more Panzer IVs to head over here.

Dowly · 08-14-12, 02:25 PM

"Going to Town" (Part 4)

Not sure how much damage the mortars did, but at least I can expect the enemy to be suppressed.

3.Platoon puts up a smoke screen and start their attack.

They get across the road with no casualties and continue forward until they reach the hedgerow.

Another ATG is spotted near the first one.

Why shoot the ATG when you can shoot a much bigger target, right?

The inability of my infantry forces me to order one of my Panzer IVs to take care of the ATG.

Luckily, he's a good shot and nails the gun with the first round.

I try to advance with the 2.Platoon, but the main road turns out to be too risky.

I'm winning the fight easily. Think I've sustained only 2 or 3 casualties so far and I have the
fire superiority. But, I ran into a problem: hedgerows turn the town into a maze. 3.Platoon can't
advance directly as there are no holes in the hedges and my pioneers are out of satchel charges.
There looks to be a way through the hedges on the left, which is my best option. It takes more time
to peddle back to the main road, which in turn would give the enemy a chance to concentrate their
fire on 2.Platoon. Speaking of 2.Platoon, I'm thinking of circling them around to the southwest part of
the town, 4.Platoon's MG42s can take their positions to keep the enemy suppressed. If all goes well,
I can then attack the center of the town from both southwest and northeast.

Dowly · 08-14-12, 06:28 PM

"Going to Town" (Part 5)

3/3 advances while the rest of the platoon provide covering fire.

"Ive got a present for ya!"

"Ha ha ha!"

This Ami tried to fry my Panzer with a rifle grenade, but missed.

The Panzer IV didn't.

This fudging ATG stood here, under constant fire for 15-17 turns! Only after I assaulted the position with
two infantry squads and threw 11 grenades at it, did it finally give up and die.
(Upon further inspection, it would seem that the poor bugger had suffered some freak accident and was unable
to surrender due to being stuck under the ATG

)

The Americans flee en masse as 2.Platoon pushes onwards.

This fellow was obviously up to no good, so I shot him.

Twice.

The knocked out ATG. All the brown rubble used to be wall, now blown to bits after the grenade rain.
v

Squad from 3.Platoon occupies the church.

Upon climbing up to the tower, I notice three mortar teams behind the church.

They are more or less executed on the spot.

Situation just before the end.

That was a fun mission.

Video of the ATG

Oberon · 08-14-12, 07:23 PM

I did ponder about that ATG when you first spotted it because its left wheel had phased through the wall. Did it actually fire at any point?

Dowly · 08-14-12, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

Did it actually fire at any point?

Yeah, it fired few rounds before it got pinned down. Though, I wonder why
my Panzer IV, that had a clear LOF, only used it's MG against the ATG.

------------------------------------------------

"Crossing Paths"

0720 7 August 1944, Brouains

The sounds of gunfire had not yet died down, but von Magsburg already walked through the
streets of Brouains, shouting orders. "Get someone into that church tower! I need eyes on
those crossroads, now!"

"Jawohl!" came the response as a pair of forward observers began scaling the tall church
tower. Wohnhas approached, leading the column of prisoners taken in the fighting.

"What should we do with them, sir?" he asked.

"Send them to the rear, we don't have the men to take care of them. Get them to the armored,
see if they have some transport space."

Wohnhas gave orders to his men in turn, and moved to join von Magsburg. As he approached,
the forward observers returned from the church tower.

"Sir! We can't see too well in this fog, but the crossroads looks occupied."

"I could have guessed that," von Magsburg noted wryly. "Anything more specific you can tell me?"

The scouts looked at each other and shrugged. "Bunch of guys running around in the open.
Couldn't see any heavier weapons or anything, but it doesn't mean they weren't there."

"Any sign of 1.Kompanie?"

The scout shook his head. "No, sir, but the gunfire from the north seems to have stopped."

"Right. Wohnhas!" he shouted at the company commander, who was returning to the church.
"Round up the infantry and get them back in their trucks! We're pushing the crossroads!"

Oberon · 08-15-12, 12:29 AM

Given how things have been proceeding so far, I'd put money on there being a Sherman or two lurking in the cover by those crossroads, so it's probably a good thing that you'll be attacking from two seperate directions.

The question is, should Kampfgruppe Magsburg wait for 1 Kompanie to arrive in position before launching the assault on the crossroads, or attack just before 1 Koy arrive to draw the Americans attention towards them (allowing 1 Koy to hit them from behind) or assault straight away and hope they have enough firepower to make an impression on the Americans before 1 Koy joins in, otherwise you'll be picking away at them piecemeal rather than overruning them.

Personally I'd hold until 1 Koy is just about ready, then hit the Americans with Magsburg and bring in 1 Koy on the other pincer, with Panzers to fore and aft, the Amis should crumble quickly.

Should.

Should, Like Travis and Bowie should have crumbled quickly...should, like the 24th Regiment of Foot, 5 Coy Field Engineers and the NNH should have been overrun quickly...

We shall see...

Dowly · 08-15-12, 06:02 AM

Yeah, it's a fair assumption that this 8 tanks vs. infantry hulabaloo won't last forever.

My guess is that the crossroads will be reinforced by armor at some point during
the mission.

----------------------------------------------------------

"Crossing Paths" (Part 1)

Situation

0730 7 August 1944

Kampfgruppe Magsburg is forcing its way down the main road to Chérencé-le-Roussel. They are
now approaching a major crossroads, which they must clear to allow the division's advance to
continue.

Thanks to two successful thrusts to the east and north of the crossroads, we have the Amis
surrounded and are attacking them from both sides.

The fog remains, but it's now light enough that LOS is not substantially restricted. It should
keep the Jabos away, though.

Mission

Kampfgruppe Magsburg is to clear the crossroads west of Brouains no later than 0845 in order
to allow the division's advance to continue unhindered.

Friendly Forces

Your Kampfgruppe is fully assembled and ready to attack with two companies of Panzergrenadiere
and two tank platoons. You will be receiving a limited amount of support from the divisional
105mm artillery battery.

Enemy Forces

The enemy consists of American infantry, although little else is known about this position.
They should not receive any air support given the fog.

The first 10 turns were mostly me scouting the place with 2.Kompanie, not very screenshot
worthy, hence I give you just an overview.

2.KOMPANIE:
I sent 2.Plt HQ to scout the road ahead, while 4.Plt HQ scouted my left flank, which looks
like a tempting alternative to attack from. Both scouting parties report all clear and I
make my mind about the direction of attack: the left flank. However, I leave 2.Plt
and 1.Plt plus the 3 remaining Panzer IVs in reserve, maybe I can launch a third attack from
the center?

1.KOMPANIE:
When they arrive, I will have to push them straight up the road. Rather take their AT fire
frontally than from the flanks. There's a tall hill overlooking the crossroads on the top-right
of the map, might be an idea to have one or two Panthers up there.

08-13-12, 08:28 AM	#31
Narko Watch Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Latvia, Riga Posts: 19 Downloads: 47 Uploads: 0	2) Move on and play the next mission

08-13-12, 08:33 AM	#32
Fincuan Admiral Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Suomi, sauna, puukko, perkele Posts: 2,346 Downloads: 39 Uploads: 0	Move on to the next mission. The road was practically clear when you ran out of time.

08-13-12, 11:25 AM	#33
Dowly Lucky Jack Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 25,006 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	Myeah, that's the option I'd vote as well. And I thought a way to make it hurt me for being such an idiot: Leifheim's 1.Kompanie & Behn's Panthers can't move for the first 15 turns when the attack to the crossroads starts. This to simulate a delay for encoutering tougher resistance than expected.

08-13-12, 02:12 PM	#34
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	I'd go with option 2, and your idea for the attack on the crossroads is a viable one.

08-13-12, 05:51 PM	#35
Dowly Lucky Jack Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 25,006 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	"Going to Town" (Part 1) Situation 0600 7 August 1944 Kampfgruppe Magsburg is moving west along a side road to Chérencé-le-Roussel. Divisional scouts took small arms fire while approaching the small village of Brouains; it can be assumed to be occupied by enemy infantry. In order to allow the passage of the division along this road, the enemy infantry must be eliminated. The other half of the Kampfgruppe is clearing the road to the north in concert with this attack. A light fog is starting to form. Visibility should start out at around 250m but will improve as the day gets brighter. Mission Kampfgruppe Magsburg is to clear the town of Brouains of enemy forces no later than 0715 in order to allow the division's advance to continue unhindered. Friendly Forces Your Kampfgruppe is leading with one motorized Panzergrenadier Company (2.Kompanie), supported by the Kampfgruppe's Panzer IV platoon. This force will arrive in five minutes and is preceded by a small reconnaissance element. You will be receiving a very limited amount of support from the divisional 105mm artillery battery. Enemy Forces The enemy consists of American infantry, although little else is known about this position. They should not receive any air support given the fog. The terrain is interesting here. There is a ridge running through the map, from NW to SE. This means I will be fighting downhill once I reach the outskirts of the village. While I wait for the main force to get here, I send one of my Pumas to check the left flank and a dismounted Puma crew is sent across the field to the west. If the right turns out clear, I'll attack from there. Less hedgerows and the terrain should cover my approach through the field. When playing with Crécy, we don't use 1st turn arty, so I had completely forgotten about it until now. I give the Amis a wake up call by lobbing all 28 105mm rounds right smack middle of the village. Aaaand they literally slam majority of the rounds right in the middle of the 172m area target marker. The scouts report all clear, which is a bit surprising. As scouts, your job is to get shot at, and frankly, I don't care about you, I got tanks. Na na naa! Erhm.. right, run up that hill and see if someone is stupid enough to shoot you and reveal their position to me. "Uh.. hello?" The scout team gets all the way to the buildings overlooking part of the village. As everyone seems to be asleep, I send both 1. and 2.Platoon across the field, tagging along are a team of pioneers for gardening duty and my forward observer. Gardening duty. 2.Platoon secures the road, two Panzer IVs are called forward. 2.Platoon sends two squads to see what lies behind the hedgerows to the right, 1.Platoon send their scouts to trace the steps of the dismounted Puma crew to the left. I'm a bit terrified that this is going so well. Either this is an easy mission or all the Amis are in the village and I have to fight for every house. I got some 100 81mm HE rounds my FO can drop on them in 5 minutes' time, though. The 3.Platoon marker should read 1.Platoon, btw.

08-13-12, 08:09 PM	#36
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Wo ist sie Ami? I think you're going to have a Saving Private Ryan moment on entering that town, Amis in every window. Either that, or the forward scout truppen that was sent to scope the town met the one American recon squad that was holding the whole town and fled in panic. Judging by the way things are going for you, you'll find Tom Hanks in the middle of the town who will demolish your entire armoured outfit with a pistol.

08-14-12, 06:55 AM	#38
Dowly Lucky Jack Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 25,006 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	"Going to Town" (Part 2) 1.Plt sends scouts to double-check the route used by the Puma scouts. Both sides of the road are clear, so I start moving both platoons forward. A little while later, I finally spot my first enemy team. They are inside a 2-story building in the center of the village. And they are pretty good shots too. The road is surely watched by either a Bazooka team or an ATG, so I have my pioneers blow holes through the hedges, so my armor can drive up to the 1.Plt's position and provide overwatch from there. 30 turns in and I feel like I have the upperhand. 1.Plt's position offers a good view to a part of the village, I will probably concentrate my forces there. 2.Plt's area isn't ideal, but does have a good LOS to the intersection and some parts of the town. I'm thinking of sending 1 squad from 2.Plt to the white T-shaped building on the northwest side of the town. The building would provide a very good line of fire to a big part of the town. But that might be too risky.

08-14-12, 09:41 AM	#39
Dowly Lucky Jack Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 25,006 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	"Going to Town" (Part 3) I've decided to launch the attack from the 1.Platoon's position, using the whole 2.Kompanie. 3. and 4.Platoon on their way to the front. 1.Plt begins to take fire from all around the town. As more contacts keep popping up, I decide to have my mortars dump their rounds into the town. Hopefully that'll soften them up and makes my life easier once I start the assault. The men of 1.Plt can't keep up sufficient firepower, so I order the 4.Plt's MG42s to fix that. And that they do, all enemy contacts are quickly pinned down. Unfortunately, it's too late for the 2/1. I have the 3.Plt move forward to the hedgerows lining the road. When the time comes, they will be leading the assault. ATG position by the church. Luckily, it doesn't have very good firing lines, but then again neither does my Panzers. The mortar barrage should start on the next turn and probably lasts for 2-3 turns. After that, I'll smoke the road and order 3.Plt across. While the mortars are firing, I bring 2.Plt to join the rest of the Plts, due to the casualties the 1.Plt took, I'm thinking of leaving them behind. I also ordered two more Panzer IVs to head over here.

08-14-12, 02:25 PM	#40
Dowly Lucky Jack Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 25,006 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	"Going to Town" (Part 4) Not sure how much damage the mortars did, but at least I can expect the enemy to be suppressed. 3.Platoon puts up a smoke screen and start their attack. They get across the road with no casualties and continue forward until they reach the hedgerow. Another ATG is spotted near the first one. Why shoot the ATG when you can shoot a much bigger target, right? The inability of my infantry forces me to order one of my Panzer IVs to take care of the ATG. Luckily, he's a good shot and nails the gun with the first round. I try to advance with the 2.Platoon, but the main road turns out to be too risky. I'm winning the fight easily. Think I've sustained only 2 or 3 casualties so far and I have the fire superiority. But, I ran into a problem: hedgerows turn the town into a maze. 3.Platoon can't advance directly as there are no holes in the hedges and my pioneers are out of satchel charges. There looks to be a way through the hedges on the left, which is my best option. It takes more time to peddle back to the main road, which in turn would give the enemy a chance to concentrate their fire on 2.Platoon. Speaking of 2.Platoon, I'm thinking of circling them around to the southwest part of the town, 4.Platoon's MG42s can take their positions to keep the enemy suppressed. If all goes well, I can then attack the center of the town from both southwest and northeast.

08-14-12, 06:28 PM	#41
Dowly Lucky Jack Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 25,006 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	"Going to Town" (Part 5) 3/3 advances while the rest of the platoon provide covering fire. "Ive got a present for ya!" "Ha ha ha!" This Ami tried to fry my Panzer with a rifle grenade, but missed. The Panzer IV didn't. This fudging ATG stood here, under constant fire for 15-17 turns! Only after I assaulted the position with two infantry squads and threw 11 grenades at it, did it finally give up and die. (Upon further inspection, it would seem that the poor bugger had suffered some freak accident and was unable to surrender due to being stuck under the ATG ) The Americans flee en masse as 2.Platoon pushes onwards. This fellow was obviously up to no good, so I shot him. Twice. The knocked out ATG. All the brown rubble used to be wall, now blown to bits after the grenade rain. v Squad from 3.Platoon occupies the church. Upon climbing up to the tower, I notice three mortar teams behind the church. They are more or less executed on the spot. Situation just before the end. That was a fun mission. Video of the ATG

08-14-12, 07:23 PM	#42
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	I did ponder about that ATG when you first spotted it because its left wheel had phased through the wall. Did it actually fire at any point?

08-15-12, 12:29 AM	#44
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Given how things have been proceeding so far, I'd put money on there being a Sherman or two lurking in the cover by those crossroads, so it's probably a good thing that you'll be attacking from two seperate directions. The question is, should Kampfgruppe Magsburg wait for 1 Kompanie to arrive in position before launching the assault on the crossroads, or attack just before 1 Koy arrive to draw the Americans attention towards them (allowing 1 Koy to hit them from behind) or assault straight away and hope they have enough firepower to make an impression on the Americans before 1 Koy joins in, otherwise you'll be picking away at them piecemeal rather than overruning them. Personally I'd hold until 1 Koy is just about ready, then hit the Americans with Magsburg and bring in 1 Koy on the other pincer, with Panzers to fore and aft, the Amis should crumble quickly. Should. Should, Like Travis and Bowie should have crumbled quickly...should, like the 24th Regiment of Foot, 5 Coy Field Engineers and the NNH should have been overrun quickly... We shall see...

08-15-12, 06:02 AM	#45
Dowly Lucky Jack Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 25,006 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	Yeah, it's a fair assumption that this 8 tanks vs. infantry hulabaloo won't last forever. My guess is that the crossroads will be reinforced by armor at some point during the mission. ---------------------------------------------------------- "Crossing Paths" (Part 1) Situation 0730 7 August 1944 Kampfgruppe Magsburg is forcing its way down the main road to Chérencé-le-Roussel. They are now approaching a major crossroads, which they must clear to allow the division's advance to continue. Thanks to two successful thrusts to the east and north of the crossroads, we have the Amis surrounded and are attacking them from both sides. The fog remains, but it's now light enough that LOS is not substantially restricted. It should keep the Jabos away, though. Mission Kampfgruppe Magsburg is to clear the crossroads west of Brouains no later than 0845 in order to allow the division's advance to continue unhindered. Friendly Forces Your Kampfgruppe is fully assembled and ready to attack with two companies of Panzergrenadiere and two tank platoons. You will be receiving a limited amount of support from the divisional 105mm artillery battery. Enemy Forces The enemy consists of American infantry, although little else is known about this position. They should not receive any air support given the fog. The first 10 turns were mostly me scouting the place with 2.Kompanie, not very screenshot worthy, hence I give you just an overview. 2.KOMPANIE: I sent 2.Plt HQ to scout the road ahead, while 4.Plt HQ scouted my left flank, which looks like a tempting alternative to attack from. Both scouting parties report all clear and I make my mind about the direction of attack: the left flank. However, I leave 2.Plt and 1.Plt plus the 3 remaining Panzer IVs in reserve, maybe I can launch a third attack from the center? 1.KOMPANIE: When they arrive, I will have to push them straight up the road. Rather take their AT fire frontally than from the flanks. There's a tall hill overlooking the crossroads on the top-right of the map, might be an idea to have one or two Panthers up there.