Realism- and gameplay-related hardcode fixes for SH3.EXE

[desertstriker]

Let me rephrase that for you so you can understand my position. I ment glorified because of them winning as all history goes the victor is writen to be on the right and honorable side. Now my big critism we often overlook we interned amero-japs in often terrible conditions some how that only gets a footnote in the history books while everything else is glorified.

Now if Hitler had won Germany would be glorified. There would be pictures of them freeing the japanese from the internment camps. So think of much of what the allies have writen over the years to be reversed.

I am not disrespecting anyone who served several of my family served in WW2 and probably on both sides considering my mom has russian heritage and my father has german heritage. All I am saying is that the allies commited warcrimes too and where never punished because they won and those crimes have mostly been swept under the proverbial rug.
And another thing. I AM JEWISH and my family has documented a great many who we are 99% sure where killed in the camps due to last known position being in poland. so you don't have to remind me about that thank you very much.

Edit:in case you are wondering which side is jewish its my moms side as they fled russia during their purge of the jews in IIRC the 1920s will double check that.

There is no such thing as we allies are 100% good guys fighting against 100% bad guys. USSR perhaps the most known for imprisoning and killing people.

Western countries pretended that nothing is happening in 1932-33 Ukrainian killings.

After America was attacked by Japan at Pearl Harbor, President Franklin Roosevelt issued Executive Order 9066 consigning 120,000 people of Japanese ancestry to internment camps.

So there were and will be wrong things in the "Fighting for justice" countries so to speak.

Edit: Anyway this is wrong topic for such discussions. We should get back to more pleasant matters now

[desertstriker]

and that is exactly my point. but those injustices will commited by the side that won will often be overlooked by the winners while they play high and mighty and prosecute the injustices commited by the losers.

Another such episode comes to mind whenb the soviets where invading germany. The jewish resistance fighters where often killed on the spot when found. but the soviets where never charged with those instances. Also stalin killed more of his people than hitler did with any of the nazi's but hey we looked the other way there... kind of ironic though the punishments given at the nuremberg trials by the soviets when they did much of the same thing.

[Leitender]

Vince82

thank you very much for your explanations!

The german "torpedo crisis" wikipedia page shows a source which gives a statistical analysis of the overall torpedo shot successes. Please see here:

http://www.mgfa.de/pdf/ZMG_Heft%201_2009%20internet.pdf (page 16).

"mgfa" (Militärgeschichtliches Forschungsamt) means military historical research office: That´s an official site. The titles of the columns are: shots - hits - misses - technical dude - w/o result. Please ask for further translation help.

"technical dud" obviously are prematures and bouncing torpedoes due to faulty pistols, surface runners and technical problems. The dud rate was:

1939: 31/181=17%
1940: 155/898=17%
1941: 97/865=11%
1942: 156/1600=10%
1943: 52/805=6%
1944: 25/396=6%

"misses" could be due to wrong solutions OR due to depht keeping failure, which was not known at the beginning and thus not differentiated . The missing rate was

1939: 87/181=48%
1940: 322/898=36%
1941: 352/865=41%
1942: 710/1600=44%
1943: 331/805=41%
1944: 169/396=43%

So, what does that mean? The first table seams to be clear: reduction from 17% to 6% because of improvements due to improved pistols. But the second? To be honest i have expected the opposite: Highest missing rate in 1940, during the climax of the crisis, but not the lowest. So how can we interprete this numbers? No idea at the moment. That´s the big problem: Not to get many dates, but how to interpret them correctly.

Concerning the values of the hsie.ini: That´s why i asked for these three main points. If both points prematures and defect impact pistols are already simulated by the game, this additional (minimum!) failure rate of e.g. 25% at the beginning is way to much imho.

Because of the player´s interaction (we already know how to handle with the first points: Shoot at short distance to avoid prematures, use impact pistol when bad weather and shoot at 90° impact angle to avoid bounces) the "real" failure rate in the game is already reduced. Only the third point of the crisis (depth keeping) has left to be simulated. I hope i could explain what i mean.

I'm working on it! I'm preparing a sheet with all the dates and settings

I really don´t want to force you to do all that work, but although it would be interesting to know

About the surface runners: I never understood why that problem should occur with the torpedo crisis. No matter which depth was to be set, with that depth keeping problem the torps should steer maybe deeper, but not narrower. Hsie´s fix in fact simulates these (sea resp. wind dependant) surface runners (of up to 98% failure rate), although the failure rate should cover all points of the torpedo crisis.

Maybe surface runners and duds due to depth keeping problems should be simulated seperate: Surface runners with h.sie´s failure fix (and much lower failure rate) and faulty depth keeping e.g. with randomly changed dial values. What du you think? This question btw. goes to everyone

Sincerly

[J0313]

Originally Posted by desertstriker

and that is exactly my point. but those injustices will commited by the side that won will often be overlooked by the winners while they play high and mighty and prosecute the injustices commited by the losers.

Another such episode comes to mind whenb the soviets where invading germany. The jewish resistance fighters where often killed on the spot when found. but the soviets where never charged with those instances. Also stalin killed more of his people than hitler did with any of the nazi's but hey we looked the other way there... kind of ironic though the punishments given at the nuremberg trials by the soviets when they did much of the same thing.

The Allies didnt committ warcrimes on the scale that Germany and Japan did. No one is clean in war. Everybody has there dirty laundry so to speak but the fact remains tha even though the U-boaters were brave men they fought for a cause that was horrible, inhuman and needed to be crushed and so there for, they are lucky to have gotten the recognition they have gotten so far, if any. Becouse as far as I am concerned they dont really deserve any. I can start pumping out statistics and numbers. What the Japanese did to the Koreans and Chinese would make your head spin. And also always remember this. The Axis started the war. And they got what they deserved.Also, as far as the Russians are concerned. We should have went ahead and taken Pattons advice as soon as the War was over. Sometimes you have to pick the lesser of two evils and set your priorities. So in order to defeat the greater threat to the whole world at the moment, we had to side with the communists.

[Vince82]

thank you very much for your explanations!

No problem, Leitender. Let me reply real quick, because I got a 'busy day':

But the second? To be honest i have expected the opposite: Highest missing rate in 1940, during the climax of the crisis, but not the lowest. So how can we interprete this numbers? No idea at the moment. That´s the big problem: Not to get many dates, but how to interpret them correctly.

During the second half of 1940 the torpedoes had a reliable pistol and targets were 'easy pickings'. As the war progressed the tactical situation changed and more and more experienced commanders were lost aswell. Besides the uboat fleet grew in size and new commanders were needed.

Originally Posted by J0313

The Allies didnt committ warcrimes on the scale that Germany and Japan did. No one is clean in war. Everybody has there dirty laundry so to speak but the fact remains tha even though the U-boaters were brave men they fought for a cause that was horrible, inhuman and needed to be crushed and so there for, they are lucky to have gotten the recognition they have gotten so far, if any. Becouse as far as I am concerned they dont really deserve any. I can start pumping out statistics and numbers. What the Japanese did to the Koreans and Chinese would make your head spin. And also always remember this. The Axis started the war. And they got what they deserved.Also, as far as the Russians are concerned. We should have went ahead and taken Pattons advice as soon as the War was over. Sometimes you have to pick the lesser of two evils and set your priorities. So in order to defeat the greater threat to the whole world at the moment, we had to side with the communists.

My head is still spinning from what yankees did with injuns and africans. You shouldn't be telling your laundry is a little bit cleaner than those of Axis. Because history remembers everything.

[Herr-Berbunch]

Can I remind you of the thread title - Realism- and gameplay-related hardcode fixes for SH3.EXE

Can we get back on topic. If you must persist in your current tones then I suggest taking it to PM.

Thank you, in advance.

Herr-Berbunch

[desertstriker]

of course sorry HB.

[Stiebler]

"misses" could be due to wrong solutions OR due to depth keeping failure, which was not known at the beginning and thus not differentiated . The missing rate was

1939: 87/181=48%
1940: 322/898=36%
1941: 352/865=41%
1942: 710/1600=44%
1943: 331/805=41%
1944: 169/396=43%

BdU was always poor at statistical analysis.

Later in the war, as convoy defences became stronger, U-boats were forced increasingly to fire salvoes at long range. As early as Novemeber 1941, Topp reported his frustration at having to use this tactic against one of the Gibraltar-UK convoys.

If you fire four torpedoes at long-range at one target, does one hit and three misses mean that you have actually fired three misses, or no misses?

This issue is made more difficult to analyze since some of the later torpedoes were looping torpedoes.

I doubt if you can deduce anything from Leitender's table given above. Blame BdU, not Leitender!

Stiebler.

[denis_469]

Originally Posted by LGN1

Hi denis_469,

I do not fully understand what you say, so please forgive me if I misunderstand some of your points.

Here are some comments:

• I'm glad for you that you have such a large database. Unfortunately, I don't have access to it. If you read my older posts in this thread, you will realize that at several instances I asked for information/help/input because of missing/unclear data. So I think you are wrong when you write 'If you not wish read orginal documents'.
• I understand that you cannot upload the whole database. However, you might pick one or two documents and upload them or reference them to support your opinion.
• I don't mind if people write their opinion, however, this can be done in a polite way.
• I don't have any problems with your information, but I'm not glad about your phrasing. Actually, I'm glad about your comment concerning the periscope vibration. Indeed, it seems bluring happened only at higher speeds and many sources apply the XXI problems to all boats (BTW, this report mentions 7Kn: http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-413INT.htm). I will adapt my hsie.ini file accordingly (in stock SH3 you can make 12 knots while snorkeling with a VIIC without any impact on the scope. Realistic?)

Anyway, if you have good information/sources please share them with us. I guess there are some jewels in the 102577 submarine attacks.

Regards, LGN1

Edit: Concerning your comment 'I see that you made good (total) mod and thank you for this', I must say that although I spent some time on this mod, the most work by far was done by H.Sie! He did all the hard work and spent an incredible amount of time for this. All praise should go to him!

My database is easy access for all in my site:
part 1: http://sovpl.forum24.ru/?1-3-0-00000001-000-0-0
part 2: http://sovpl.forum24.ru/?1-3-0-00000007-000-0-0

I'm rare see subsim, so answer you now only.

My english not good, so whae I can, so and write.

About this mod I simple write, that was not realistic in my mind (see).

[denis_469]

Originally Posted by LGN1

denis_469,

since you have such a large database and have mentioned the oxygen issue, you might help us to clarify this issue once and for all. We had quite a few discussions on this issue, but could not find a definite answer. A good starting point is the original VIIC manual. It can be found here:

http://www.uboatarchive.net/Manual.htm

On page 84 the air purification system is described. Important points are:

• "Purification system: removing CO2 by means of sodium hydroxide cartridges": I'm not aware how sodium hydroxide cartridges could release oxygen.
• "Renewal system: bleeding O2 from oxygen flasks."
• In the whole document I could not find a single reference to a machine/device that could produce pure oxygen to refill the flasks.

Given these informations I conclude that the submerged endurance was indeed limited. But your earlier post ("And in all subs was chemical regeneretion O2 in boats. This chemical components easy reloading in sea from other boats in real life.") seems to contrast this (and the original VIIC manual does not include any statement about 'chemical regeneration O2 in boats'). Can you please clarify/comment on this issue? Did it change during the war (the manual is from 1940, I guess)? Thanks!



Regards, LGN1

My english not good, so I can say, that you need know internal volume submarine and numbers crew members. After it see how long submarine was under water. After it divided oxigen in boat in hours under water and in result see minus hours. Minus hours can not, so this minus is regeneration. This manual, as I know, was write when was problems with chemical patrons and was remove from 1941 year. During sea refueling subs receive this atrons from subs type XIV and other boats. This what I read.

Denis,

ето мазохизм читат как ты пишыш по англиски, луче пишы по руски а я перевиду им самое важное

[denis_469]

Originally Posted by Montekidlo

Denis,

ето мазохизм читат как ты пишыш по англиски, луче пишы по руски а я перевиду им самое важное

По-русски будут непереводимые идиоматические выражения.

Так что если хочешь, то переведи им чтобы прежде чем чего-то делать по реализму оружия/повреждений читали хронику атак у меня на сайте.

Originally Posted by denis_469

По-русски будут непереводимые идиоматические выражения.

Так что если хочешь, то переведи им чтобы прежде чем чего-то делать по реализму оружия/повреждений читали хронику атак у меня на сайте.

Translation:

Before making anything about realism, armament/damages, please read attack chronicles at my web.