US Politics Thread 2016-2020

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

Not what I asked.

NATO's original purpose was "to safeguard the freedom, common heritage and civilization of their peoples, founded on the principles of democracy, individual, liberty, and the rule of law". It was established as a collective defense against the threat of Soviet and Warsaw Pact invasion. But that threat has long since disappeared.

But should NATO be dissolved? No.

Should Europe take a more proactive role in NATO and its own collective security. Yes. But if it refuses to get off its collective hind end NATO may just become another toothless government bureaucracey like the UN.

Globalization, its here and its sometimes not a pretty place. The threats to our security you and I face now lie far outiside our borders, namely the Middle East and Asia. Yet Europe still has to rely on U.S., intel, comms, and logistics for any global event. On top of that Europe couldnt muster enough firepower to fight its way out of a wet paper bag. It really has nothing offer yet damed if they aren't there bitiching and complaining everytime time the U.S. has to step up to the plate to do the dirty work.

What we are most likely witnessing today in the attitude towards Europe and NATO was written about by a fella named David Gompert, he warned: " a division of labor in which Europe specializes in its internal affairs and enrichment while the United States protects Europe’s oil supplies and combats nuclear proliferation will collapse of its own unfairness and its ultimate rejection by the American people.”.

[em2nought]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

What we are most likely witnessing today in the attitude towards Europe and NATO was written about by a fella named David Gompert, he warned: " a division of labor in which Europe specializes in its internal affairs and enrichment while the United States protects Europe’s oil supplies and combats nuclear proliferation will collapse of its own unfairness and its ultimate rejection by the American people.”.

Yep, time to grow up, get a job and move out of our basement.

Originally Posted by Rockstar

But should NATO be dissolved? No.

All I wanted to know.


Now, all the usual shortsighted Trump-style "we are the greatest" nonsense from some people aside, I am all for every country stepping up its efforts, fulfilling what was agreed on by contract.
It's a crappy move to join NATO and then not even have a single SSN ready for a period of time (UK, recently), or an Army that is in general so cut-down that it would be ridiculously ineffective in a possible war scenario (see the Bundeswehr, or what's left of it).

Politics stand in the way too much, with stupid decisions being made that eat up billions of moneyz to by crap like the Airbus A400, or the actually great Tiger attack helicopter - but leaving it without a gun for stupid reasons - but yay Kindergarten! ...and these are just some examples from a long list.

In my opinion, the threat from the east is abysmal - but only because of NATO. So dissolving it, would be a terrible idea, it would destroy the balance.
While I do not believe Russia would go gung-ho "just because they can" at some point, it is a risk you cannot take, considering what is at stake.
We do not know what might happen globally in ten years time. Maybe a new threat from the east arises - and suddenly there's no NATO anymore because politicians have been stupid again.
No thanks.

NATO is mandatory - but members need to get their crap sorted out and deliver, asap.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

Boy, the crapstorm that would ensue here if one of us europoors would dare to say "the problem with Americans".

I know you struggle with that, like interestingly many right-wing Americans on this board, but... "the left", "Europeans", "Liberals", ... these aren't collectives.
For the sake of more sensible debates, it would be helpful if a handful of regulars here would understand this, finally, and learn to differentiate.

Sigh.

stop trolling.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by STEED

That reminds me $19 plus Trillion and rising. Don't get me wrong we have debt and rising but when i come across some one making that comment i wonder why America can't get on top of it's debt.

Politicians.

Great at spending.

Poor at raising taxes.

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

Sigh.

stop trolling.

He's not really trolling, though.

Yes, there are Europeans who hate America, but there are also Europeans who love America.

Simply because people share a culture does not necessarily mean they share opinions. The massive divide between Left and Right in the USA proves that.

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

He's not really trolling, though.

I can assure you I am not trolling at all.
And I do not appreciate such accusations at all.
(You didn't accuse me, I am aware. Just wanted to point it out.)

[MaDef]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

All I wanted to know.


Now, all the usual shortsighted Trump-style "we are the greatest" nonsense from some people aside, I am all for every country stepping up its efforts, fulfilling what was agreed on by contract.
It's a crappy move to join NATO and then not even have a single SSN ready for a period of time (UK, recently), or an Army that is in general so cut-down that it would be ridiculously ineffective in a possible war scenario (see the Bundeswehr, or what's left of it).

Politics stand in the way too much, with stupid decisions being made that eat up billions of moneyz to by crap like the Airbus A400, or the actually great Tiger attack helicopter - but leaving it without a gun for stupid reasons - but yay Kindergarten! ...and these are just some examples from a long list.

In my opinion, the threat from the east is abysmal - but only because of NATO. So dissolving it, would be a terrible idea, it would destroy the balance.
While I do not believe Russia would go gung-ho "just because they can" at some point, it is a risk you cannot take, considering what is at stake.
We do not know what might happen globally in ten years time. Maybe a new threat from the east arises - and suddenly there's no NATO anymore because politicians have been stupid again.
No thanks.

NATO is mandatory - but members need to get their crap sorted out and deliver, asap.

The original NATO's time is past, it was designed to protect Europe and counter a Russian threat while post war Europe rebuilt itself and got back on it's feet. It needs to be adjusted for future threats and the U.S. role in NATO needs to reflect that.

Originally Posted by MaDef

The original NATO's time is past, it was designed to protect Europe and counter a Russian threat while post war Europe rebuilt itself and got back on it's feet. It needs to be adjusted for future threats and the U.S. role in NATO needs to reflect that.

And with the rising threat of China (and possibly a Russian/Chinese/? coalition), what has really changed?
NATO needs to adjust 24/7, because the political situation changes, naturally, over time. That neithr makes NATO obsolete nor unfit as it is at the moment.
Can it be optimized? Definitely.

But we still need it, in my opinion.

[MaDef]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

And with the rising threat of China (and possibly a Russian/Chinese/? coalition), what has really changed?
NATO needs to adjust 24/7, because the political situation changes, naturally, over time. That neithr makes NATO obsolete nor unfit as it is at the moment.
Can it be optimized? Definitely.

But we still need it, in my opinion.

I didn't say dissolve NATO, keep NATO, but the U.S. needs to maybe take a less active roll. we currently have 99,500 active duty personnel stationed throughout Europe, most of them because of NATO, that's 3x as many troops as we have fighting wars in the Middle East. Maybe it's time for the EU to take on more responsibility for her own defense.

[em2nought]

Originally Posted by MaDef

I didn't say dissolve NATO, keep NATO, but the U.S. needs to maybe take a less active roll. we currently have 99,500 active duty personnel stationed throughout Europe, most of them because of NATO, that's 3x as many troops as we have fighting wars in the Middle East. Maybe it's time for the EU to take on more responsibility for her own defense.

"Not" going to Europe sure makes being in the US military less attractive considering the places they'll be going or already are going instead. Yuck! Plus that whole dying for nothing thing isn't so great either, unless you're lucky enough to at least die for your comrades.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by em2nought

"Not" going to Europe sure makes being in the US military less attractive considering the places they'll be going or already are going instead. Yuck! Plus that whole dying for nothing thing isn't so great either, unless you're lucky enough to at least die for your comrades.

Astonished to read this from you "Treffer und versenkt!"

[August]

As far as overseas duty stations go Germany was the best.

[em2nought]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Astonished to read this from you "Treffer und versenkt!"

I think many of us misunderstand each other a great deal on this particular website. I loved every minute of the four years I spent in Europe, when I wasn't at work that is. I even enjoyed some of the hours at work, heavy weather on the Firth of Clyde for example.

[MaDef]

Originally Posted by em2nought

"Not" going to Europe sure makes being in the US military less attractive considering the places they'll be going or already are going instead. Yuck! Plus that whole dying for nothing thing isn't so great either, unless you're lucky enough to at least die for your comrades.

You kind of missed/ignored my point.