US Politics Thread 2016-2020

[ikalugin]

https://www.stripes.com/news/europe/...-says-1.567918

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Mr Quatro

Cite! This is simply not true

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/16/68605...rder-crossings

[Jeff-Groves]

A wall will not work no matter how much money is thrown at it.
I'll use the Invasion of the Moles as an example.
My property runs 330 feet behind my house. There is a lot of moles at the back 60 feet near the woods.
Over the years they have been moving closer to the house so I dug a ditch, poured a footer 3 foot deep and built a wall.
Guess what? They dig tunnels!
With mouse traps I have caught those illegal Moles INSIDE my home!
So the wall was a waste of money and time.
Reality is that no wall ever works perfectly and mostly becomes a wasted effort.

[Skybird]

I stick with the Israeli example. Wehre they have build walls, they have tunnels and moles, yes, but even with these the number of incidents with Arabs trying to in filtrate Israel and committing acts of terror and crime in Jewish settlements have dramaticlaly delcined. It becomes more difficult to poeneteate into israel wherte therew are walls, and this has significantly reduced the number of border penetrations.



Imagine the number of migrants gets cut down to one third due to a wall. That would already be a big success, I would say. One third is three times less than the previous state.



What else should be done to protect a border? There, or here, or anywhere? A border can be protected. Of course it can. But it might need a level of determination and willingness to make tough decisions that many people do shy away from. Welcome culture, we say in germany. The Australians formed another concept: deterrance. Its absolutely clear to see what concept of these two works, and what concept works not at all.



You cannot demotivate people to come to your place if you welcome them and ask them friendly to leave, and you even pay them money if they leave.

[Catfish]

This wall will never be built.

[Dowly]

Here's an article from 2006 on Haaretz that talks about the reasons for reduced Hamas activity:
https://www.haaretz.com/1.5301742

(Spoilers: it's not the wall... which is actually more of a fence)


Here's another from 2008:
https://www.haaretz.com/1.5051525

[August]

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

A wall will not work no matter how much money is thrown at it.
I'll use the Invasion of the Moles as an example.
My property runs 330 feet behind my house. There is a lot of moles at the back 60 feet near the woods.
Over the years they have been moving closer to the house so I dug a ditch, poured a footer 3 foot deep and built a wall.
Guess what? They dig tunnels!
With mouse traps I have caught those illegal Moles INSIDE my home!
So the wall was a waste of money and time.
Reality is that no wall ever works perfectly and mostly becomes a wasted effort.

Well, prisoners can tunnel walls and barriers as well but prisons still have walls around them so they are hardly a waste of time.



Walls serve as barrier to mobility. They may not stop everyone but it sure takes a lot longer to secretly dig a tunnel under, or scale over, or break through, a wall than it does just to walk over an invisible line drawn the sand. That delay gives border control a chance to respond and without walls their job becomes a lot more difficult.

[eddie]

I wonder if ICE has deported all those illegals who have worked for the Trump Organization since 2002, building hotels and golf courses, and work as maids at his hotels? He sure talks out of both sides of his big mouth,lol
How many of those illegals were members of MS-13, or were involved with human trafficking, selling drugs, raping and murdering Americans in their beds!

[Buddahaid]

Originally Posted by August

Well, prisoners can tunnel walls and barriers as well but prisons still have walls around them so they are hardly a waste of time.



Walls serve as barrier to mobility. They may not stop everyone but it sure takes a lot longer to secretly dig a tunnel under, or scale over, or break through, a wall than it does just to walk over an invisible line drawn the sand. That delay gives border control a chance to respond and without walls their job becomes a lot more difficult.

I prefer the wire barrier and National Guard troops rather than the undefined open ended wall. Choose what the wall will be and I might get on board, but not when it's just money thrown at the concept. At least with troops there are boots geared toward a ground force.

[u crank]

Originally Posted by Dowly

In other news,

Ocasio-Cortez’s storytelling may have been persuasive to the uninformed. But it was also wrong.

https://www.ifs.org/blog/aoc-doesnt-...-a-good-story/

1) You cannot use campaign funds for non-campaign related expenses. That includes “paying off folks.”

2) “Dark-money funded campaigns” are not a thing. The source of all donations to candidates over $200 are fully disclosed to the FEC, which then publishes that information online for the world to see.

3) “Special interest” money does not dominate campaign coffers, even of the candidates you don’t like...

Ocasio-Cortez, like most politicians, is a Manichaean. There are the good guys and the bad guys; the goal is to stop the bad guys and help the good guys. If someone disagrees with you about a bill or policy, the only reason must be that they are the bad guy, or at least paid for by the bad guys. It also must mean that your bill will hurt those bad guys! That’s why they’re opposing it, and that confirms that the bill is good!

The world doesn’t work that way. Opponents of H.R. 1 are not bought by the fossil fuel industry, or big pharma, or some other nonsense. There are many legitimate gripes with how this 570-page monstrosity of a bill hurts the fundamental First Amendment rights of all Americans. Ocasio-Cortez and supporters of the bill may think that those costs are outweighed by the benefits, or that it is more important to cast the symbolic anti-corruption vote than to deal with the policy ramifications of their proposal.

But they should at least learn how the system actually works now before they become so certain of how to fix it.

[Rockstar]

I think its been shown time and time again guarded barriers work. As it is now migrant routes simply move where there are no barriers or guards. If a wall, barrier, fence or whatever you want to call it is finally built that spans the entire border. The next path of least resistance will be by sea.

Cant imagine how the government could provide continued funding for active patrolling of a barrier anyway. Unless of course electronic sensors could be used but it is my understanding that funding was cut because of cost over runs and nothing was ever produced.

[Skybird]

Of course there must be guards and patrols at any kind of border. You have guards before surveillance on monitors, pilots in surveillance aircraft and crews in surveillance vehicles. But no patrols along a tool of perimeter defences - a fence or wall?



That even a wall needs boots on the ground is so natural a concept to me that I did not figure that one would need to explicitly mention it.

[Catfish]

The border will - if it will ever be built (i take it the state of national emergency has been swept under the carpet?) - 3.144 kilometers long. Will take some people to guard it. Along with those billons to build, maintenance and all that.
https://www.businessinsider.de/us-me...18-5?r=US&IR=T
Mexico will not pay for it.
Wouldn't it be better to admit failed politics and get a grip on drug comsumption in the US? (hint: main problem, but too much US money involved of course)
Or punish those who let illegal migrants work for them, to spare taxes, and not hiring US citizens for those jobs (as if the latter were ever keen on those special jobs).
Or assume control on visa papers when it comes to its length of validity.

And in 20 to 30 years there will be crowds of people tearing down the wall (if it is built) and the presidents in charge will be celebrated for getting back freedom for the world, and along the border.

Still, i think it will not be built.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Wouldn't it be better to admit failed politics

Failure? Ha! This is by design, this is U.S. politics at its best!


Buy the way I'm doing my part about the drug problem and looking to buy some OTC pot stocks.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Catfish

The border will - if it will ever be built (i take it the state of national emergency has been swept under the carpet?) - 3.144 kilometers long. Will take some people to guard it. Along with those billons to build, maintenance and all that.

Technology has made some advancements over the past 2000 years. A lighthouse or watchtower with 20 archerseavery 200 meters is no longer needed.

Wouldn't it be better to admit failed politics and get a grip on drug comsumption in the US? (hint: main problem, but too much US money involved of course)

The war on drugs is the textbook exmaple of a failed policy. And why should citizens not have the right to consume drugs, btgw? I only am against the public needeing to pay fore the cosnewquence sof their consummation. Finally, corrupoting a detemrined effort to stop illegal migration , is not failure due to unavoidable fat or something. It simply is a delibverate and wanted saboptage of a determined border proteciton regime.



It cna be done. Israel shows it. Australia, in the past severla state sin the East Block in Germany. Thje problem in case of stopping illegal migraiton is not ability or money. Its lacking will to do what must be done. We see this inEurope ourselves, too. Its not as if we could nopt stop illegal crossing of the Med or European opute rborders. But our politi8cians and chief ideologists reuse to do what must be done for that goal. They want mirgants coming in, still, like the Democrats in America want them comi8ng to gain new voter pools from people sympathising with doing this, or sympathsiing with the idea to overcome the nationla state and its identity itself.

Or punish those who let illegal migrants work for them, to spare taxes, and not hiring US citizens for those jobs (as if the latter were ever keen on those special jobs).

Employing illegal aliens already is punishable, they said on TV. Even more seriously lounsiable than in Germany and most of Europe were it is punishable as well.

Or assume control on visa papers when it comes to its length of validity.

Forged or lakciong papers do not stop aliens in Germany dropping below the radar and dissappearing, forever. A very big and completely unbsovled problem her ein Germaqny. Why do you think NMexicans tick diferfrenbtly and will be shy to beocme insivisnble just becasue the yhave no papers? And what about those who9 come with no valid papers anyway, since years and decades?

And in 20 to 30 years there will be crowds of people tearing down the wall (if it is built) and the presidents in charge will be celebrated for getting back freedom for the world, and along the border.

Freedom for the world...? The world is only free if the US, or Europe for that matter, gets owned by the rest of the world, and no sovereignty of nations and their native and original populations exist anymore? Whats next - socialist world revolution and the emerging of the global peace of the new Aquarian era?


Whatever weed it is that you are on - get off it. History shows were dreaming like this leads to. And it never was nice, but always miserable. Always.