TMO campain - how historic?

[ETAIPOS]

I'm currently playing TMO2.5tw campaign and I wonder, how accurate it is? Can I expect to find Japanese carriers at Timor Sea around Darwin raid? Or take part in Java Sea battle?

I have already encountered strange things, like unescorted Nippon Maru class tanker heading to Manila Bay around 20 jan 42, or troop transport escorted by 2 DDs steaming along Java Sea on 17 Jan, just north from Surabaya.

It seems dynamic campaign do not really work with rapidly changing situations

Besides I find it strange, that when I return from 2nd war patrol, with base moved already from Manila to Surabaya, I spend 20 days in port, as it is IMHO completely unrealistic to sit in port so long at this time. (I do have some 2 pts of hull damage, from AA guns on a merchant I wanted to finish off with deck gun but it should be patched up in few hours, tops).
Or maybe should I play all this part of game as single long patrol, spending single night or 2-3 days max in port (using TC) reload/refuel and fight on, finishing only when base moves to Fremantle?

[aanker]

Sounds like you got pretty dinged up. Even with 2% damage to your pressure hull it takes time to repair. Furthermore your crew needs some R&R or they will get burned out. They need more than 2-3 days in port.

The TMO campaign itself is fairly accurate. Ducimus tried to have shipping where it should be at certain times during the War. Yes the big Naval Battles happen.

The Japs chased everyone out of the way on land and sea in their advance South. Surabaya couldn't be held so the boats were moved to bases in Australia. The British were overwhelmed on land even with superior numbers, Manila was lost the same way.

You're the Captain. You can stay out as long as you want and rearm and resupply at friendly ports in a never ending patrol - or you can go out, complete your Objectives, sink some tonnage & return to base, and spend some time in port and await new Orders.

Happy Hunting!

[ETAIPOS]

Originally Posted by aanker

Sounds like you got pretty dinged up. Even with 2% damage to your pressure hull it takes time to repair.

Hmm, this would mean that any sort of surface fighting is out of question in TMO... I had literally 1 moment when I took damage - finishing of a merchant that I hit with torpedo before. He had AA guns only and could train one, maybe two at me.
Against DDs I'm either not located or dead, I do not know yet how to make them lose contact after they establish it. And it seems DCs dropped are always hitting stern and braking ship beyond repair within 1-2 runs by DD.

Originally Posted by aanker

Furthermore your crew needs some R&R or they will get burned out. They need more than 2-3 days in port.

The Japs chased everyone out of the way on land and sea in their advance South. Surabaya couldn't be held so the boats were moved to bases in Australia. The British were overwhelmed on land even with superior numbers, Manila was lost the same way.

I wouldn't mind a month rest in Fremantle. But due to reasons you described I do not see Surabaya as a plausible place to rest for so long. A week? Great. But 20 days not so much.

Originally Posted by aanker

The TMO campaign itself is fairly accurate. Ducimus tried to have shipping where it should be at certain times during the War. Yes the big Naval Battles happen.

You're the Captain. You can stay out as long as you want and rearm and resupply at friendly ports in a never ending patrol - or you can go out, complete your Objectives, sink some tonnage & return to base, and spend some time in port and await new Orders.

Happy Hunting!

Thanks! I will try to interfere in those big battles, then.
If there is no way to make the port stay shorter I'll try to simulate a week leave in port through TC. Unfortunately this means my 2nd patrol will be some 70-80 days long... At what date base moves to Australia?

[cdrsubron7]

At what date base moves to Australia?

Surubaya was seized by the Japanese on March 8, 1942 in WW II. I would assume that that the submarine switches to Fremantle shortly after this date.

[aanker]

Originally Posted by ETAIPOS

At what date base moves to Australia?

After 1942-02-28.

Because 1942 was not a leap year, SH4 may become confused because Fremantle-Perth is set to begin on 1942-02-29 ??? so... 1942-03-01 should be safe.

You can look at TMO 2.5's 'Flotillas.upc' in Data\UPCData\UPCCampaignData to find the dates.

Happy Hunting!

[Rockin Robbins]

Going back to the original question, what is historic? Is historic pertaining to ship positions and actions at a certain time corresponding to the events of WWII or does historic pertain to the processes that created the dance of death that war was?

Let's consider that in the context of a mythical game: Ali-Frazier I - Fight of the Century. In making the game we have to wrestle with the meaning of the term "historical." Finally the decision is made that means that the Player as Ali, will face a Frazier that throws the exact punches and moves he made in the real fight. With a real sense of accomplishment the game is tossed out on the market for $60 and sells really well for a couple of weeks.

Then the You Tube videos start to appear. Frazier is in the middle of the ring throwing the exact same punches in the same location he fought Ali. But the player is sitting on the stool. Frazier doesn't chase him. He's "historically accurate." Ali gets off his stool and shuffles over to Frazier's left side. Frazier continues to punch the Ali of the past. But the player is invulnerable, standing off to the side, undetected by the "historical" Frazier. Bored from standing there watching Frazier fight a hallucination, Ali gives Frazier one punch, completely undefended of course, and knocks Frazier out. The entire Internet blows up into a laughfest at the expense of a lame game.

Now let's consider the same thing in Silent Hunter 4. Suppose a port sent an unescorted convoy a week except for a month when the Wahoo was parked offshore, picking off one of the convoys. Then the Japanese stopped sending that convoy for a month until Wahoo left. So in the game you sit offshore and sink convoy after convoy, which is blindly sent out to their death. Of course for the month of Wahoo, the convoys stop. Is that "historical?" Or can you see how ridiculous that is.

War is an interdependent dance of death between opponents who prod and react to each other, continuously changing their tactics in a struggle to gain an advantage. A spotter from the US carrier spots the Japanese fleet and calls home, Americans strike and sink many ships. If the spotter does not spot the Japanese fleet Americans do not strike and many ships remain afloat. War is governed by the personalities of its participants, the fortunes of war and cosmic throws of a set of deadly dice.

I say "historical" is a process of how the war is fought, not a reproduction of the physical moves performed during the one version of the war we have record of. I say the sub skippers in the war didn't know where they would encounter Japanese ships or what Japanese disposition was. They were following orders, not gallivanting around independently seeking targets hundreds of miles from their assigned areas. I say we expect to be able to predict what no real sub skipper could ever predict in the war.

I say a scripted campaign is just a joke. A dynamic campaign where you don't know what you will encounter where is the REAL historical campaign. You can't game a historical campaign. But a scripted campaign is as big a farce as our Ali-Frazier I fight game above.

I think Ducimus hit it out of the park with his campaign. It's very dynamic and you really can't predict what you will encounter. Still shipping and military moves in general are based on what really happened in the war. It is plausible but not history in a straitjacket.

[Barkerov]

RR is correct in what he is saying but there is still a way to play "historical" mods like RSRD. Simply don't watch the Ali vs Frazer fight beforehand. In other words make a plan that isnt based on entirely what was going to happen historically but on what was known at the time. This requires discipline.

The downside of this approach is that it doesn't last, once you complete the fight once you cant unlearn what you observed while you were in it and it will be exactly the same next time.

I think the best way to go is to try both

[jscharpf]

Dang I love Rockin Robbin's explanation

[Armistead]

TMO builds traffic basically like the stock campaign, by using percentages and generics rather than like RSRD that picks every ship and makes a path for each group. TMO basically spawns the same convoy, but each time because of generics and percentages, the groups makeup will be different, the amount of ships different and you can even use a percentage if the group will even spawn, however, most groups travel the same path, but unlike RSRD, you don't know for sure when it's coming if at all, so it gives you the historical element of surprise. He also uses a lot of loops that can change the path up somewhat. The other thing good about TMO is groups tend to zig zag a lot, but about every 10 nms, less causes too much lag, but forget sitting in a straight line waiting, cuz even 10 nms zig legs often leave you in left field. There are numerous battles, etc. that are scripted, but not like or as well as RSRD that scripts the routes from port to port. With RSRD alone, I know exactly where to be at what time to find the same group, so TMO certainly gives you more the unknown feel of surprise..

[max-peck]

Originally Posted by Armistead

TMO builds traffic basically like the stock campaign, by using percentages and generics rather than like RSRD that picks every ship and makes a path for each group. TMO basically spawns the same convoy, but each time because of generics and percentages, the groups makeup will be different, the amount of ships different and you can even use a percentage if the group will even spawn, however, most groups travel the same path, but unlike RSRD, you don't know for sure when it's coming if at all, so it gives you the historical element of surprise. He also uses a lot of loops that can change the path up somewhat. The other thing good about TMO is groups tend to zig zag a lot, but about every 10 nms, less causes too much lag, but forget sitting in a straight line waiting, cuz even 10 nms zig legs often leave you in left field. There are numerous battles, etc. that are scripted, but not like or as well as RSRD that scripts the routes from port to port. With RSRD alone, I know exactly where to be at what time to find the same group, so TMO certainly gives you more the unknown feel of surprise..

Absolutely agreed
After 7 something years of playing Trigger Maru, this is the best explanation of Ducimus's campaign layers I have ever read

It is historical, in a completely random way

[Admiral Halsey]

I've said this before and will say this again. Someone needs to combine TMO's convoy system with RSRDC's scripted naval battles and you have the perfect campaign base.

[QUOTE=Armistead;2429309. With RSRD alone, I know exactly where to be at what time to find the same group, [/QUOTE]

Apologies for hijacking a bit here, but, the place to be is known from history and so is the time, but that's where I seem to fail, the time. History gives the time, relative to what? Local time at the place of the Long/Lat coordinates? And, what time would that equate too for the game clock? Would sure like to know so I might get into that Coral Sea battle with the Japanese Task Force which I have not done for years of playing! Just sayin'!!!

[Admiral Halsey]

Originally Posted by jldjs

Apologies for hijacking a bit here, but, the place to be is known from history and so is the time, but that's where I seem to fail, the time. History gives the time, relative to what? Local time at the place of the Long/Lat coordinates? And, what time would that equate too for the game clock? Would sure like to know so I might get into that Coral Sea battle with the Japanese Task Force which I have not done for years of playing! Just sayin'!!!

RL time, date and location for them. You can actually look in the campaign layers and find the long and lat for both TF's in you need to. Always make sure to be a day or two early though so the ships spawn in.

[Rockin Robbins]

Scripting is always tricky. The Aces of the Deep crew turned the Pacific war into the Battle of the Atlantic by adding dozens of hunter-killer groups to the Japanese navy! Changes SH4 from a hunting game into a hiding game. We're removing the hunter killer groups (except three!) from FOTRS Ultimate and making a mod plugin to restore them for players who wonder if American submarines could have won the Battle of the Atlantic.

It's the highest and best use of a simulation that I can think of! But it has no place in the core mod because of the draconian changes it makes to the way you must play. So it will ba an optional plugin that you can add or remove at will.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Scripting is always tricky. The Aces of the Deep crew turned the Pacific war into the Battle of the Atlantic by adding dozens of hunter-killer groups to the Japanese navy! Changes SH4 from a hunting game into a hiding game. We're removing the hunter killer groups (except three!) from FOTRS Ultimate and making a mod plugin to restore them for players who wonder if American submarines could have won the Battle of the Atlantic.

It's the highest and best use of a simulation that I can think of! But it has no place in the core mod because of the draconian changes it makes to the way you must play. So it will ba an optional plugin that you can add or remove at will.

Interesting, years ago I basically trashed RSRD... I love the historical or known historical play of it, but added numerous sub killer groups through the traffic lanes, increased the hunt times and distance groups will come from and added a mix of other traffic and made most ports impossible to get into, plus redid most the crew ratings which took forever...Not really a mod, cuz since so many files are touched silly to run both