Important: Ra 1.01 torpedo feature/bug

[Captain Sub]

I apologize if this has been mentioned before, but I simply couldn't bother going through all the 60 pages and I wanted to create a separate thread to highlight this problem.


A new feature in RA is that FLOOR/MODE setting has 5 digits as opposed to 4 in 104 stock. So for example: 14000 feet means mode [1] and floor setting to 4000.

The bug is that the AI doesn't realize this, nor does firecontrol autocrew. In waters below 10000 feet, they will set floor/mode to for example [1]0469, so the AI creates a torpedo in mode 1 and not going deeper than 469 feet, thinking they set it at 10469ft so any opponent can dive below those 469 feet and escape the torpedo easily. This makes playing with RA AI's in deep waters rather pointless.



Additional notes:

Remember that another new feature in RA is the depth sensitivity of sonars: shallow torpedoes will not find deep submarines (they did in 104 stock), however deep torpedoes will find shallow submarines and sub passive sonar below the layer will find everything below aswell as above the layer, whereas subs above the layer won't find subs below the layer.

However! Due to the 5 digits, a floor/mode at [1]1000 can be set to depth 2000 feet so even tho floor is set to 1000 feet, the torpedo will be cruising at 2000 depth where it will deny locking on to any targets at such depths.


kind regards,

Paul

Originally Posted by Captain Sub

I apologize if this has been mentioned before, but I simply couldn't bother going through all the 60 pages and I wanted to create a separate thread to highlight this problem.


A new feature in RA is that FLOOR/MODE setting has 5 digits as opposed to 4 in 104 stock. So for example: 14000 feet means mode [1] and floor setting to 4000.

The bug is that the AI doesn't realize this, nor does firecontrol autocrew. In waters below 10000 feet, they will set floor/mode to for example [1]0469, so the AI creates a torpedo in mode 1 and not going deeper than 469 feet, thinking they set it at 10469ft so any opponent can dive below those 469 feet and escape the torpedo easily. This makes playing with RA AI's in deep waters rather pointless.



Additional notes:

Remember that another new feature in RA is the depth sensitivity of sonars: shallow torpedoes will not find deep submarines (they did in 104 stock), however deep torpedoes will find shallow submarines and sub passive sonar below the layer will find everything below aswell as above the layer, whereas subs above the layer won't find subs below the layer.

However! Due to the 5 digits, a floor/mode at [1]1000 can be set to depth 2000 feet so even tho floor is 1000 feet, the torpedo will be cruising at 2000 depth where it will deny locking on to any targets at such depths.


kind regards,

Paul

At use Autocommand Fire Control the mode of a torpedo will be preset well as default a mode in original game - the torpedo works in a usual mode. And she remains completely efficient.

Other business, that manual presets, will give you richer presence of modes.

For example: a torpedo MK 48 ADCAP.
At use Autocommand Fire Control, torpedo mission, will be given as ASW + ASuW Mode (as well as in the original - the torpedo attacks any found out target)

The parameters FLOOR - and in stock variants did not take into account depth target.

Concerning layers - ability of detection of torpedos.
Meaning - with increase of depth (above), the target "becomes more louder".

Between that as, on the greater depth - having the same speed - the target will be more silent.
More precisely speaking - the deep depth, more weakens noise propagation more strongly.

To: Captain Sub.

Concerning torpedo presets - you give the unverified data.

If the depth of search Is lower than Floor, then Floor will be established automatically to the maximal depth - and the Target will be locked.

Example:
The "Seawolf" Sub player located on depth: -2000 ft
Target Located On depth: -850 Ft.

1 Torpedo Preset (as you have declared):
Ceiling: -9
Floor: -1000
Search Depth: -2000 Ft
Cruise Depth: -2000 Ft
Target will be Locked - as Search Depth lower than Floor - Floor will be established automatically to the maximal depth in doctrine.

2 Torpedo Preset:
Ceiling: -9
Floor: -800
Search Depth: -600 Ft
Cruise Depth: -2000 Ft
Target not will be Locked - as Search Depth above than Floor.


It would be desirable that before how to give shout about bug - to check up existing suspicion on a problem.

[Captain Sub]

You don't seem to understand one bit of what I said

Originally Posted by Captain Sub

You don't seem to understand one bit of what I said

>> However! Due to the 5 digits, a floor/mode at [1]1000 can be set to depth 2000 feet so even tho floor is 1000 feet, the torpedo will be cruising at 2000 depth where it will deny locking on to any targets at such depths.



This is NOT WILL DENY LOCKING.

You can create mission with such conditions as I have written above (Target: an 850-:-900 Ft. Player: nearly -2000 Ft).

Set torpedo presets as I have written, and you will be convinced.

Or got mission:
http://www.redrodgers.com/forums/sho...076#post112076

[NFunky]

Originally Posted by Captain Sub

You don't seem to understand one bit of what I said

I'm lost at sea (get it?) with his answer too. I think this may be a language barrier issue.

[Pillar]

Just post inputs and outputs. Almost no language is required. I don't think it is clearly understood what the problem is.

Here is what I gather: GrayOwl is merely pointing out that it is the *search* depth that must be set below the target depth, not *floor*. Floor will always be set to the maximum depth possible, so if you are seeing an issue it is because the AI is setting the torpedo search depths, not floors, too high.

I fear GrayOwl may be missing the point being made. GrayOwl it is not a problem with detection, it is a problem with AI search depths being set too shallow.

The game mechanic doesn't make sense to me. Why would a torpedo at 2000 feet have a greater chance of detecting a target at 100 feet than a torpedo traveling at 50 feet? Even with no layer.

[Castout]

Originally Posted by Pillar

The game mechanic doesn't make sense to me. Why would a torpedo at 2000 feet have a greater chance of detecting a target at 100 feet than a torpedo traveling at 50 feet? Even with no layer.

Actually it makes perfect sense to me. RA is trying to simulate multiple layers effect on sonar which DW lacks. There are multiple layers in the ocean.


By going deeper a submarine is making itself quieter to any enemy sonar platform shallower than itself. This is because of the presence of multiple layer. As the pressure of sea water increases with increase depth, sound wave somehow gets propagated a lot further in deeper water due to the increase in water pressure hence the ability of hearing shallower object from deep depth a lot further while the same cannot happen in the reverse because sound waves from deeper layer gets reflected before reaching shallower depths and thus reducing the shallower sonar platform ability to detect deeper target. Water is also a better sound medium than air due to the density and the layers exists due to the differences in temperature I think(my physics is rotten). Even US WWII sub which were capable of shallower diving depths than German U-boat enjoyed the protection of multiple layers which saved them from many Japanese destroyers or sub hunters.
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For example
RL Case 1:
A torpedo set to passive traveling at shallower layer than target is likely unable to lock onto the deeper target because the target noise signature is dampened(much reflected) by the layer.

A torpedo set to active traveling at shallower layer than target suffers from degradation in its locking capability because the it pings suffer from being reflected. Though an active torpedo is still likely to lock unto target because of the sheer intensity of the ping.

RL Case 2:
A torpedo set to passive traveling at deeper layer than target looking for noise signature to lock unto and when it receives noise input because whatever noise left by the shallower layers gets propagated a lot further in deeper depths then a lock is acquired

A torpedo set to active traveling at deeper layer than target suffers from degradation from the layers that protect deep diving sub from being detected by surface ASW. However much of its signal will still get through because of the intensity of the ping and a lock is still very possible


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As to GrayOwl explanation I think he was trying to say that the depth that the torpedo does the search(depth setting)is more crucial than floor setting.

After being launched a torpedo travels in launch depth and then makes the transition to search depth set by depth setting and if this depth setting is deeper than floor setting the floor gets ignored and the floor is reset to maximum possible.

Anyway I also think he may also mean that the the mode/floor setting doesn't apply to AI. It only applies to manual preset with human player.

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I don't mean to preach and if Im mistaken please do correct me so we all can learn about this hobby. ;-D

and Dr. Sid please write your thing.

[Pillar]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillar

The game mechanic doesn't make sense to me. Why would a torpedo at 2000 feet have a greater chance of detecting a target at 100 feet than a torpedo traveling at 50 feet? Even with no layer.

Actually it makes perfect sense to me. RA is trying to simulate multiple layers effect on sonar which DW lacks.

A bit silly if this is what they are trying to do. A torpedo that is simply a few dozen feet above the target will not fail to locate it while another torpedo thousands of feet deeper succeeds. The ocean acoustics you paraphrased are not nearly that black and white and are much more subtle. Conditions would be very unusual indeed for the total failure of torpedoes simply because they are physically above the emitter. Like, solid mercury with a steep temperature gradient or something.

Search depth must be simulating something else, otherwise the behaviour is inaccurate. Torpedoes indeed can dive after their targets after acquiring them from above.

[Pillar]

did you all get this sorted?

http://www.redrodgers.com/forums/sho...postcount=1025
Pay attention to a post # 1025.

[Pillar]

Gray Owl, I'm pretty sure you're not following what the issue being raised is here. I'm not saying the issue raised is valid or correct -- that is to be determined. But I wanted you to know that it looks like you might be missing something useful to you here.