[REL] Campaign layers with zigzagging units

[LGN1]

Hi,

@makman: It wasn't meant ironically or anything else. I really appreciate your comment. Thanks again

@h.sie: I guess there is a high chance that you will get a CTD. Personally, I just play a single campaign and don't go back to save games from previous patrols so it's quite easy for me to avoid this. However, for players who run several campaigns at different times in the war in parallel it is problematic. They need a good book-keeping to know what RND layer belongs to what campaign. Unfortunately, there is no other solution in SH3 (one reason to move to SH4).

For me personally it's worth the trouble and those with strong enough machine can get a decent zz pattern with a 50MB file, I guess.

Cheers, LGN1

[h.sie]

Hi LGN1,

what I mean is the situation when my campaign lasts for a long time. Let's say it begins in 1941. So I have to load the 1941 RND file.
Not lets say I survive 3 years in the same campaign. During this campaign I have to alter the RND file to the 1944 one, which I think could be problematic.

Maybe I am too pessimistic.

h.sie

[LGN1]

Hi h.sie,

I don't think that's a problem if you do it in port. BTW, the same problem is present if people use the Black Sea campaign, Med campaign, Indian Ocean campaign,... from GWX.

In addition, I have changed the campaign layers already several times during a career and never had any problems (starting in the Atlantic going to the Med,...). I think it's only problematic if the save game was created from a different campaign layer (maybe also if you add/remove ships during a career (although I never had a problem with this, too)). What do you think might be carried over from an older patrol to a new one except of tonnage, renown, crew status, ships sunk

Anyway, I am confident to be able to create an RND layer of about 30-40MB with good zz patterns. As your tests indicate the loading time will not increase (that much?) and memory resources might also be acceptable. It might be an option for those with better machines.

Cheers, LGN1

[h.sie]

Hi LGN1,

ok, maybe my thoughts about savegames are wrong. Your arguments sound plausible for me.

Thanks, no need to make that all-containing RND layer (for me), because I already did that. I restricted on the Atlantic/Med theatre, choose 20km zz pattern length. ColumnNo: 1-2. Rest default. Result is a 48MB file which can easily and quickly be loaded. I don't know if that big RND file boosts the chance for a CTD during gameplay. I'll see. And maybe the 4GB patch helps here?

My personal SH3 editition now is almost completed.

h.sie

[h.sie]

in this context it would be desireable to have a nav-map mod with restricted information (shows convoys/group but not single ships). in the higher zoom levels the map shows groups instead of single ships. this could be a starting point. OLC did something similar, I think....

[LGN1]

Hi,

Originally Posted by h.sie

in this context it would be desireable to have a nav-map mod with restricted information (shows convoys/group but not single ships). in the higher zoom levels the map shows groups instead of single ships. this could be a starting point. OLC did something similar, I think....

There are quite a few different map mods available. I use my own:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/down...o=file&id=1179

The main difference of this mod from the other mods, as far as I know, is that you have a quite detailed view on the attack map. However, since you cannot plot on the attack map, this does not spoil the manual targeting. It also uses different symbols for groups and single ships.

I have uploaded a new version of the zigzag script and campaign layers for the stock GWX campaign area and the whole war. The size of the layer is around 35MB. The new script allows you to choose a probability that a unit has a zz pattern. The loading time increases on my old rig from 4:40 to 5 minutes (for comparison the waterstream mod increases the loading time by almost 2 min. on my machine ).

The GWX RND layer has roughly 120 escorted, one-column units, 161 more-column units, and 1204 unescorted, one-column units in the speed range up to 15kn. Adding zz patterns to the escorted one-column and more-column units is thus no problem. The main load comes from the unescorted ships (which anyway do not gain much by zigzagging).

In the included layers the unescorted units do not start to zigzag at the beginning of the war, but some months later. In addition, I have used the new option in the script to have these units only zz with a certain probability (depending on their speed). In other words, escorted ships always zigzag, but unescorted units may or may not zz.

Cheers, LGN1

[h.sie]

Hi LGN1,

you have a PM.

That new option sounds good, but it is statical, that means Unit XYZ always zigzags or not.

I don't know much about waypoints. But as far as I know it is possible to plan different routes for a unit. Let's say from Waypoint xy there are 2 different routes to go. Route A with a probability of 50 % and Route B also 50%. Wouldn't it be a good idea to make Route A a non-ZZ route and Route 2 a ZZ route. Every time a unit is spawned, a new randomization occurs.

Greetings,
h.sie

[LGN1]

Hi h.sie,

Originally Posted by h.sie

Hi LGN1,

you have a PM.

That new option sounds good, but it is statical, that means Unit XYZ always zigzags or not.

I don't know much about waypoints. But as far as I know it is possible to plan different routes for a unit. Let's say from Waypoint xy there are 2 different routes to go. Route A with a probability of 50 % and Route B also 50%. Wouldn't it be a good idea to make Route A a non-ZZ route and Route 2 a ZZ route. Every time a unit is spawned, a new randomization occurs.

Greetings,
h.sie

Replied

In principle one could also have the same units zz between some waypoints and sail straight between others. Don't know which way is better. At the moment I anyway use a quite high probability. I guess it would be difficult for a single player to recognize a difference.

There is a loop feature that allows the ships to sail directly to some other waypoint (in a straight line). I have disabled this feature for the zzing units because it becomes a book-keeping nightmare (because all the waypoints are renumbered) and I don't know what the advantage would be (zz pattern changes randomly anyway). Again, I guess a single player would never find out any difference. In addition, you do not gain anything with respect to file size. So, as long as I don't see any big advantage of the loop-feature I don't intend to do all the work to enable it. It just doesn't seem worthwhile for me.

Cheers, LGN1

[Obltn Strand]

I'm still bit amazed by this mod. It opens a whole new game. Before your mod it was enough just to lie in wait until straight sailing ship comes to shooting area. Now I actually have to observe them longer, plot their courses, wait for night fall etc. It takes time.

Don't worry you'll get your feedback. I just gather some experience with it first.

[LGN1]

Hi Obltn Strand,

I'm glad you like it! Any feedback about the ZZ patterns?

Meanwhile I have done several patrols with the ZZ patterns. No problems encountered so far. What I like more and more is the inaccuracy of the radio contact's course. Now you have to guess the true course of a radio contact (where the contact might be going, to which port,...)

Here are more examples of hunting convoys (note the length of the chase. In one case it took me almost 150km until I could sink the first ship (in 1943 with escorts carrying radar). When I positioned myself ahead of the convoy it made a ZZ and I had to crawl away, do an end-around, and position myself again. All the time receiving radar warnings ).

[Volk2]

What's this gui on the screenshots? It looks interesting

[Obltn Strand]

Originally Posted by LGN1

Hi Obltn Strand,

I'm glad you like it! Any feedback about the ZZ patterns?

Meanwhile I have done several patrols with the ZZ patterns. No problems encountered so far. What I like more and more is the inaccuracy of the radio contact's course. Now you have to guess the true course of a radio contact (where the contact might be going, to which port,...)

I never have done so comprehensive mapping of target ships.

As what comes to radio contacts I agree. Much more difficult to intercept. Keeps me quessing and about half of those actually escape.

Single ships usually turn once or twice before I have reached to a good firing range. Perhaps a turn per per hour. Rarely enough to seriously affect to their eventual demise. Lone ship travelling less than say 16kts, if spotted, is sunk anyway. However near patrolled coastlines when they suddenly turn away and MTB or some other patrol craft appears in horizon some ships have managed to escape.

Convoys become more difficult. As they turn towards me escorts do the same. This has more than often ruined a good attack position.

I count this mod among those that I don't sail without. Thanks man.

What happens if I shorten distance between turns?

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by волк

What's this gui on the screenshots? It looks interesting

Looks like the 6-Dials Simfeeling mod from FLB_Sale.

[LGN1]

Originally Posted by волк

What's this gui on the screenshots? It looks interesting

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Looks like the 6-Dials Simfeeling mod from FLB_Sale.

The GUI is a private combination of several mods among others the 6-Dials Simfeeling mod. The notepad down in the right corner informs you if you have new orders or malfunctions (via SH3 Commander).

Originally Posted by Obltn Strand

I never have done so comprehensive mapping of target ships.

As what comes to radio contacts I agree. Much more difficult to intercept. Keeps me quessing and about half of those actually escape.

Single ships usually turn once or twice before I have reached to a good firing range. Perhaps a turn per per hour. Rarely enough to seriously affect to their eventual demise. Lone ship travelling less than say 16kts, if spotted, is sunk anyway. However near patrolled coastlines when they suddenly turn away and MTB or some other patrol craft appears in horizon some ships have managed to escape.

Convoys become more difficult. As they turn towards me escorts do the same. This has more than often ruined a good attack position.

I count this mod among those that I don't sail without. Thanks man.

What happens if I shorten distance between turns?

Thanks for the feedback! I agree that ships without escorts (and speed below your submerged speed) do not gain much by zigzagging.

However, with escorts the situation is considerably more difficult (if you do manual targeting). I had to do the comprehensive mapping when I was hunting 2 or 3 ships escorted by a radar-equipped escort. I submerged several times for an attack, but it was always spoiled. Then I had to wait until the distance was large enough again to surface and over-take them again... all the time the ships came closer and closer to their destination.

Shortening the distance between turns should be possible, but you should be aware of the following:

1. You can quickly overload the campaign layers with too many waypoints.

2. The shorter the legs, the closer the ships remain to their main course. As a consequence, you might get into a good firing position many times with just positioning yourself on the main course line.

3. I don't know how serious it is, but convoys might get too confused by too close waypoints. They need a longer time to get their correct formation after each waypoint.

The main core of units in the campaign layer consists of unescorted ships. If you do not want them to zigzag, you can shorten the distances for the others considerably. For myself I keep some unescorted ships zigzagging because

a) it takes a bit longer to sink them and thus, chances are higher that something goes wrong.

b) catching radio contacts of single ships is more involved. I really like guessing to which harbor a ship might travel.

Cheers, LGN1

PS: I have been working on a version for NYGM. If any NYGM player would like to test it and/or has some special wishes, please let me know.

[Obltn Strand]

To LGN1

Does Campaign Layer with Zigzag means ships will zigzag everywhere and every time?

My computer can handle it, so it saves me some trouble of changing mods as time progreses.