[REL] Campaign layers with zigzagging units

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Originally Posted by LGN1

Hi,

@Kpt. Lehmann: Just take a look at this thread (especially post #7):

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=165794

and the action report I linked above. The main difference is that the zigzag pattern is much 'smaller' now. Ships now change course every few miles. Depending on the weather conditions and the contact, you have to figure out the zigzag pattern before you can attack (especially when using manual targeting. I already missed some shots because the ships changed course when I fired). Shadowing a contact is now much more interesting.


@h.sie: From my experience the loading times are determined by the amount of units and the size of the campaign layers. I never tested whether the crucial point is the number of units or the waypoints. However, if you add a fine zigzag pattern to the complete stock campaign you will end up with an RND layer around 100MB For the present campaigns I added around 40000 new waypoints.
If you don't like changing the campaign layers you can also just restrict the area where the ships zigzag. However, I think you have to restrict the layers either in time or place It's not a perfect solution, but I think it's worth it (Another solution would be to use a 'bigger' zigzag pattern. However, from my experience you do not gain much from a pattern with legs larger than around 25km).

Cheers, LGN1

Thank you.

Does your work still retain the random waypoint changes and random speed changes introduced in the GWX campaign files?

[Henri II]

Originally Posted by LGN1

Hi Henri II,

...

Finally, just three questions: Did you use map updates? Did you use manual targeting? How many km was a zigzag leg when you applied the script to the merged campaign (the 78 MB case)?

Again, thanks for the feedback.

Cheers, LGN1

Map updates were on, autotargeting off. I don't remember the exact size of the leg but I think I left it at the default value or something very close to it.
One thing I forgot to mention earlier, it is now a lot more difficult to intercept a convoy from the contact report. It seems the course given in the report is the course of the current zigzagg leg, not the general course of the convoy. That means, if if try to intercept it from a long distance, you have to make a guess about the general course. If you guess wrong your plot might be off by some hundred km, which is nice.

[LGN1]

Hi,

@Ducimus: Thanks for the reply! You are right, I got inspired from the work done for SH4. I was surprised that such a tool for SH4 (mcoca's Automated Campaign Editor) did not exist (in the public?) for SH3. I read all the zigzag posts in the SH4 forum. I agree that it's not possible to realize the original patterns posted by Tater in the thread linked in my first post. However, it's my experience that already a pattern with a 'leg length' of around 20km changes the game play considerably. If it's longer you do not gain much.

Concerning the zigzag pattern, it's a fine line between being too predictible and too random. I use non-overlapping random radii and have a random chance that the pattern changes at some point. So even if you plot the pattern for some time it might change when you attack.

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

Does your work still retain the random waypoint changes and random speed changes introduced in the GWX campaign files?

The waypoints have random radii to guarantee varying 'leg lengths' and course changes. However, the loop feature is disabled. Instead the pattern changes randomly. The speed changes at the 'GWX waypoints', but not at every zigzag waypoint, i.e., it changes only over longer distances, not every few kilometers (it changes a bit because of the speed loss at waypoints).

Originally Posted by Henri II

Map updates were on, autotargeting off. I don't remember the exact size of the leg but I think I left it at the default value or something very close to it.
One thing I forgot to mention earlier, it is now a lot more difficult to intercept a convoy from the contact report. It seems the course given in the report is the course of the current zigzagg leg, not the general course of the convoy. That means, if if try to intercept it from a long distance, you have to make a guess about the general course. If you guess wrong your plot might be off by some hundred km, which is nice.

Thanks for the feedback! So it was around 25km.

At the moment all ships/convoys use the same pattern. Depending on the feedback, it might be worth the effort to change this so that convoys might have longer 'legs', unescorted fast ships shorter 'legs',...

Cheers, LGN1

[makman94]

congratulations LGN1 !

i don't play anymore the game (so don't expect a feedback from me) but always your mods-ideas are very interesting !

one question : what method for ploting is that is showing at your pics ?? can you give some info on this? seems interesting !

thank you

keep up the good moding !

[h.sie]

just inspected the results using the mission editor.

G R E A T !!!

[h.sie]

Originally Posted by LGN1

I just added zigzag patterns (with the same parameters as in the present mod) to the stock GWX file. The script added roughly 330000 waypoints and the new file was 60 MB. Anyone wants to try it

Hi LGN,

Took my stopwatch and determined loading times on my average Office PC.

1. Unmodified GWX-RND layer:
Filesize now approx 8MB.
loading time = 3:45min. RAM-Allocation 1.8GB

2. Added zigzag (25km max. length) to the WHOLE RND layer.
Filesize now approx 60MB.
Loading time = 3:45min. RAM-Allocation 2GB.

3. Added zigzag (15km max. length) to the WHOLE RND layer.
Filesize now approx 140MB.
CTD.

h.sie.

[h.sie]

It's me again: Would you consider the default values of your zigzag script as recommendable and halfway realistic?

Thanx, h.sie

[LGN1]

Hi all,

Originally Posted by makman94

congratulations LGN1 !

i don't play anymore the game (so don't expect a feedback from me) but always your mods-ideas are very interesting !

one question : what method for ploting is that is showing at your pics ?? can you give some info on this? seems interesting !

thank you

keep up the good moding !

Thanks for the nice words. Do you mean all the lines in the plot? It's a method I picked up in some post here (don't remember who posted it ). It's just a workaround to note the time on the map. The length of the vertical lines is just the time when the sighting happened, e.g., 12.5km = sighting happened at 12:50. It's a pity that you cannot write any comments on the map directly

Originally Posted by h.sie

Hi LGN,

Took my stopwatch and determined loading times on my average Office PC.

1. Unmodified GWX-RND layer:
loading time = 3:45min.

2. Added zigzag (25km length) to the WHOLE RND layer.
Filesize now approx 60MB.
Loading time = 3:45min. RAM-Allocation 2GB instead of 1.8GB.

3. Added zigzag (15km length) to the WHOLE RND layer.
Filesize now approx 140MB.
CTD.

h.sie.

Thanks for the test I'm reluctant about too large files. For people with weaker PCs (not much RAM) it might crash earlier (especially when people use other memory intensive mods). That's why I prefer to release only the split campaign (as said earlier, I don't mind changing the layers 3 times over the whole war. Maybe because I never went through the whole war in all the years playing the game ). Why don't you like changing the layers? Out of convenience or because of save game issues?

Anyway, the beauty about releasing also tools and not only finished mods is that anyone can adjust it to their taste

Cheers, LGN1

Just a side note: After you ran the scripts it's a good idea to open the file in the mission editor, check it, and save it again. The saving reduces the file size a bit (The number of decimal digits is reduced. I was too lazy to fix the number of digits in the script).

[LGN1]

Originally Posted by h.sie

It's me again: Would you consider the default values of your zigzag script as recommendable and halfway realistic?

Thanx, h.sie

Hi h.sie,

realistic? I don't know. Take a look at the thread linked in the first post with the original Japanese patterns. Comparing with these it's not very realistic. However, I think it's definitely more realistic than stock. It just makes hunting and sinking ships less uniform because you don't know in the beginning where it will zigzag (towards you, away from you),... Hunting the (more or less) straight running ships in stock became boring for me.

In one of the old threads a length of around 10 miles was recommended (I don't know nautical or statute). I like 16km because it's the limit of the range of sight in best conditions. So, if you submerge at the range of sight the ship will have definitely changed course when it reaches your position. So you have to guess/predict its change.

Cheers, LGN1

[h.sie]

Hi LGN1,

thanks. I'll take 15km. Allow me some more questions. What is the intention behind the "Zigzag in Bay of Biscay" and "Zigzag in North Sea"-Options?

Why shouldn't they zigzag there?

Thx, h.,sie

[LGN1]

Hi h.sie,

currently the script checks whether a waypoint is in the rectangle you specify at the beginning. If you want to avoid any potential problems with the land you choose a rectangle that does not cover any land. In principle, you can run the script again and again with different rectangles and in this way 'patch up' the whole map without covering any land. Since this is a quite tedious work, I added two other rectangles (the most heavily used), North Sea and Bay of Biscay (see the map in the mod). So basically you can choose a rectangle that does not cover the Bay of Biscay and choose the option Zigzag in Bay... and the script also adds a zz pattern if the waypoint is in the 'Bay of Biscay box'. You see what I mean? In other words, it just allows you to have more rectangles in a single run of the script.

If your initial rectangle covers the Bay of Biscay or North Sea area you can either specify yes or no. It doesn't change anything. I am sorry for the misleading formulation. It only adds zz patterns to the area if the area is not included in the initial rectangle, but does NOT avoid zz patterns in the area if it's part in the initial/user-specified rectangle and no is chosen. I have to check the read-me and if necessary make this more clear.

To summarize, you can completely ignore the option if you don't care about including land in your chosen area and you make this area large enough.

Cheers, LGN1

[h.sie]

thank you, LGN1

[LGN1]

Concerning 15km: I think this is fine. However be careful with a too short distance. There might be several problems:

- many waypoints
- it will take some time for convoys to arrange their formation again. Not enough time might confuse them too much
- the offset from the main course becomes smaller and smaller. For an zz angle of 25 degrees the distance is roughly 15km*sin(25). If this distance becomes too small you can easily position yourself just ahead of the contact and will end up in firing range.

I have choosen an angle of 25 degrees because cos(25) is roughly 0.9. Thus, the speed of the ship towards its destination is only 90% of the ship's sailing speed (increasing the time of the journey by a factor of about 1.1 and thus also increasing the danger). I don't think they sacrificed more speed for the pattern. I don't know whether it has any relevance, but if you look at the most simple pattern of the posted Japanese zz patterns you can also see an angle of 25 degrees.

Cheers, LGN1

Just another remark: the distance you specify is an upper limit! If you choose 15km you will see quite a few shorter 'legs'. Maybe down to less than 10km.

[makman94]

Originally Posted by LGN1

Thanks for the nice words.

it wasn't 'nice words' ! it is my truth

Do you mean all the lines in the plot? It's a method I picked up in some post here (don't remember who posted it ). It's just a workaround to note the time on the map. The length of the vertical lines is just the time when the sighting happened, e.g., 12.5km = sighting happened at 12:50. It's a pity that you cannot write any comments on the map directly

yes , i meant these lines ....
so,...there are there for showing the...time?
You, just, 'saved' me from a ....headache !

good luck with your project !

[h.sie]

but what happens with savegames when changing the RND file?

this (and laziness) is the main reason I try to keep all in one single file.