Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine

[August]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

There are two sides to this. First one is that, sure, if we recognise their documents we get closer to recognising them as an independent state.

But there is the second, humanitarian side to it - since 2014 people kept being born (with birth certificates), getting their primary and secondary education (and relevant certificates), driving licenses and what not. Because Kiev has no control over those territories those documents happen to be issued by local authorities.
So by recognising those documents as valid we help the locals.

How exactly does that help the locals? Russia is not teaching their young or acting as traffic cops so I don't see why it would be so important that you do that.

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by August

How exactly does that help the locals? Russia is not teaching their young or acting as traffic cops so I don't see why it would be so important that you do that.

That is simple. They are essentially cut off Ukraine by political activists in Ukraine, who conduct a comprehensive blockade of the region. This means that they could not conduct activities in the Kiev controlled regions of Ukraine - they could not go to a decent university, could not get medical care, could not do buisness. Now they can, just in Russia instead of Ukraine.

This is really a logical result of the blockade of Donbas by Ukrainian political activists, the other ones is the energy crisis in Ukraine (because activists block coal supply from Donbas to the Kiev held regions of Ukraine) and the increased economic ties between Donbas and Russia (I posted a link to an article detailing the changes in the food trade).

[August]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

That is simple. They are essentially cut off Ukraine by political activists in Ukraine, who conduct a comprehensive blockade of the region. This means that they could not conduct activities in the Kiev controlled regions of Ukraine - they could not go to a decent university, could not get medical care, could not do buisness.

This is really a logical result of the blockade of Donbas by Ukrainian political activists, the other ones is the energy crisis in Ukraine (because activists block coal supply from Donbas to the Kiev held regions of Ukraine) and the increased economic ties between Donbas and Russia (I posted a link to an article detailing the changes in the food trade).

None of that actually answers my question.

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by August

None of that actually answers my question.

It does. Let me rephraze my response - Donbas is not independently viable, hence it's people need access to other regions (of Ukraine) or countries (Russia) to get access to means of living a decent life. That access requires their documents being recognised by the authorities.

Hence Russia providing such access is a good thing for them, as Ukrainian activists have blocked their access to such means in other regions of Ukraine.

Ofcourse this undermines the intimidation policy conducted by Ukrainian political activists, but those policies, just like their blockade of Crimea shows, are counter productive.

[August]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

It does. Let me rephraze my response - Donbas is not independently viable, hence it's people need access to other regions (of Ukraine) or countries to get access to means of living a decent life.

Hence Russia providing such access is a good thing for them.

Ofcourse this undermines the intimidation policy conducted by Ukrainian political activists, but those policies, just like their blockade of Crimea shows, are counter productive.

Counter productive to the Russians trying carve up their country you mean. And what you are calling "Ukrainian political activists" is in reality the government of that nation whose internal affairs you are interfering in. You can keep trying but no amount of Moscow maneuvering is going to make the rest of the world see what you're doing in that country as anything but the land grab it is.

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by August

Counter productive to the Russians trying carve up their country. And what you are calling "Ukrainian political activists" is in reality the government of that nation whose internal affairs you are interfering in.

You misunderstand.

First of all, those political activists do not operate with the authority of the official Kiev, but with the silent consent of it and are separate from the said authority.

Secondly such policies are counter productive to Kiev's interests, because the people in the regions blockaded become more dissatisfied with Kiev regime, as they are denied basic services, for example electric power supply.

An example of the later would be political activists blowing up powerlines into Crimea (and cutting off some Kiev held areas in the process). You can refresh those events in your memory by reading this article (or other articles on the topic):
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/23/w...ectricity.html
There were also cuts in food supplies from Kiev held regions into Crimea, those deliveries (just like electric power) were later replaced by deliveries from Russia, hurting both the Kiev's support base in Crimea and Ukrainian buisnesses.

Nowadays those same activists block raillines, including the coal supplies from Donbas to Ukraine (and food supplies from Ukraine to Donbas, same thing as they did in Crimea, I have linked an article above regarding growth of Russian food exports into Donbas), which lead to the Kiev Goverment enacting a state of emergency:
http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/economic/403457.html

[August]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

You misunderstand.

First of all, those political activists do not operate with the authority of the official Kiev, but with the silent consent of it and are separate from the said authority.

That makes no sense. If they have the consent of official Kiev, silent or not, then they are not separate from said authority.

Secondly such policies are counter productive to Kiev's interests, because the people in the regions blockaded become more dissatisfied with Kiev regime, as they are denied basic services, for example electric power supply.

An example of the later would be political activists blowing up powerlines into Crimea (and cutting off some Kiev held areas in the process). You can refresh those events in your memory by reading this article (or other articles on the topic):
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/23/w...ectricity.html
There were also cuts in food supplies from Kiev held regions into Crimea, those deliveries (just like electric power) were later replaced by deliveries from Russia, hurting both the Kiev's support base in Crimea and Ukrainian buisnesses.

Nowadays those same activists block raillines, including the coal supplies from Donbas to Ukraine (and food supplies from Ukraine to Donbas, same thing as they did in Crimea, I have linked an article above regarding growth of Russian food exports into Donbas), which lead to the Kiev Goverment enacting a state of emergency:
http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/economic/403457.html

It's all just so convenient to Moscow's interests and so detrimental to Kiev's that it makes me wonder who these "political activists" really work for.

Time will tell what happens but when the dust finally settles i'll bet this ends up with Mother Russia expanding her borders again and it'll bet the Pravda will be that it was all Kievs fault. Just like it was all their fault that Moscow was forced to seize the Crimea. Just like it was the Georgians fault that Moscow was forced to invade their country although those breakaway regions are technically "independent".

[Oberon]

There do seem to be a lot of...fortunate accidents...when it comes to Moscow. Well, unless you happen to be an ambassador, poor sods are really having a tough time of it at the moment.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Oberon

There do seem to be a lot of...fortunate accidents...when it comes to Moscow. Well, unless you happen to be an ambassador, poor sods are really having a tough time of it at the moment.

There are also russian critics of Putin or his policies within the motherland having a "hard time," if you do not see poisoning and physical threatening as a pledge of frindship

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Catfish

There are also russian critics of Putin or his policies within the motherland having a "hard time," if you do not see poisoning and physical threatening as a pledge of frindship

No, no, they just fell down some stairs...All of them...

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by August

That makes no sense. If they have the consent of official Kiev, silent or not, then they are not separate from said authority.

It's all just so convenient to Moscow's interests and so detrimental to Kiev's that it makes me wonder who these "political activists" really work for.

Official Kiev lacks monopoly on the use of violence.

You get the real horror stories about the volonteer battalions, such as Tornado battalion (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-uk...0Q30YT20150729 http://www.globalresearch.ca/crimina...talion/5458575)

Then there are much more mundane situations, where Right Sector fights with the local authorities in Western Ukraine over the lucrative smugling ventures (which are controlled by those authorities) or police back up teams rescuing their comrades cought looting by security (security was murdered).

As to who they serve - they serve themselves. For example back when they blockaded Crimea one of the intentions was to gain control over the flow of food supplies. By blocking access of Ukrainian suppliers they were planning to force them to use their services as middlemen (and thus by basically driving the stuff over the border and reselling it to Crimean buyers right south of the border).

But yes, you are right in a way, they all call each other "agents of Putin".

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Oberon

There do seem to be a lot of...fortunate accidents...when it comes to Moscow. Well, unless you happen to be an ambassador, poor sods are really having a tough time of it at the moment.

Originally Posted by Catfish

There are also russian critics of Putin or his policies within the motherland having a "hard time," if you do not see poisoning and physical threatening as a pledge of frindship

Well, as I've posted on this forum before.......Putin in the simplest of terms is nothing more than a democratically elected dictator.

[Catfish]

^ Very true.

"While typically not traceable to any individuals and plausibly denied by government officials, poisonings leave little doubt of the state’s involvement — which may be precisely the point."

The point it proves is that the russian government obviously feels the need for such methods, because they are not able to silence critics otherwise.
Another point they prove with it is, that the government is wrong and undemocratic.

" ... Used extensively in the Soviet era, political murders are again playing a prominent role in the Kremlin’s foreign policy, the most brutal instrument in an expanding repertoire of intimidation tactics intended to silence or otherwise intimidate critics at home and abroad."

And the parliamant officially supports that:

"No other major power employs murder as systematically and ruthlessly as Russia does against those seen as betraying its interests abroad. Killings outside Russia were even given legal sanction by the nation’s Parliament in 2006."

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/21/w...ison.html?_r=0


Not that other nations have not used those methods in certain cases here and there, but this has a special quality, and quantity.

[ikalugin]

Thread derailed

That said, Ukrainian authorities are known to go above and beyond, with people shooting themselves three times in the back, with their hands cuffed and firearm taken.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Not that other nations have not used those methods in certain cases here and there, but this has a special quality, and quantity.

well that is not really true, you have had several murders of pro-Russian politicians/journalists in Ukraine since 2014. i.e.:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/17/europe...ical-killings/

no one has ever been charged, but many observers seem to think it is right wing groups acting either with the tacit consent of the Ukrainian government or under their orders.

The Poroshenko governemnt pointed the finger at Russia, but it is not plausible to believe the Russians would kill their own supporters just to embarass the Ukrainian government.