Realism mod (discussion)

[Ansgar Burkhard]

Originally Posted by denis_469

"In the first half of 1969, an experimental Soks "Snegir" was installed on it. In September-October of the same year, as part of the Pacific Fleet exercises, the boat was engaged in the search and tracking of the US Navy's nuclear submarines in the Philippine Sea and on approaches to Fr. Guam. K-14 managed to track one of the ships of the probable enemy with the help of this system for almost 40 days. Due to this success, Soks "Snegir" was developed and subsequently one of its modifications was installed on domestic third-generation nuclear submarines."
K-14 is submarine project 627A (NATO - November). It was US submarine "Benjamin Franklin" class. Our sub start tracking when US sub go from Guam and continue before US sub return to Guam base.

It is 1969 year. First non acoustic system. During this patrol "K-14" few times go to US sub for acoustic contact. "K-14" not need acoustic contact with US sub and know where US sub was.

Yes, as I suspected they picked up a trail bear a bas where it is expected for a submarine to try and leave. As I said, SOKS research, although largely dismissed in the West until very recently, is still classified by the Russian authorities. I would love to get my hands on it. If you have more info from Russian sources on wake detection please feel free to post it.

[denis_469]

Originally Posted by Ansgar Burkhard

Yes, as I suspected they picked up a trail bear a bas where it is expected for a submarine to try and leave. As I said, SOKS research, although largely dismissed in the West until very recently, is still classified by the Russian authorities. I would love to get my hands on it. If you have more info from Russian sources on wake detection please feel free to post it.

I think, that I write about in my site today. Understand, that not all, but can write about Snegir system.

Sorry, I have not enought data for write.

[MadMike]

I think the game needs some NATO warships, not to mention shipping (WP and NATO, and neutrals), in addition to biological contacts.

Would be interesting to see a naval plot from the time when the Warsaw Treaty Organization invaded Czechoslovakia in 1968, and of course mid 1984 (will see what I can dig up).

Yours, &c.

Mike

[PL_Harpoon]

I have a small question to the guys "in the know".

Looking how the torpedoes behave in the game vs other sub sims I began to wonder how do torpedoes behave when they acquire a target.
Do they turn straight for the target or do they somehow can calculate (or get data from ship if wireguided) it's speed/course and go towards the "meeting point"?

[Wiz33]

Originally Posted by PL_Harpoon

I have a small question to the guys "in the know".

Looking how the torpedoes behave in the game vs other sub sims I began to wonder how do torpedoes behave when they acquire a target.
Do they turn straight for the target or do they somehow can calculate (or get data from ship if wireguided) it's speed/course and go towards the "meeting point"?

Not someone in the know but logic would say that they head straight for the target as sonar only gives a bearing but no course and speed. Sure, with the wire still attached, you can probably steer it but I would think the the difference in fuel usage between a curve or straight course during the terminal homing phase is probably going to be minimal

[PL_Harpoon]

Originally Posted by Wiz33

Not someone in the know but logic would say that they head straight for the target as sonar only gives a bearing but no course and speed. Sure, with the wire still attached, you can probably steer it but I would think the the difference in fuel usage between a curve or straight course during the terminal homing phase is probably going to be minimal

That's what I think too. Even a passive torp would have difficulties calculating target's movements (at least I think it would). But seeing how the torpedoes behave in CW made me question this.

[TigerDude]

Originally Posted by PL_Harpoon

I have a small question to the guys "in the know".

Looking how the torpedoes behave in the game vs other sub sims I began to wonder how do torpedoes behave when they acquire a target.
Do they turn straight for the target or do they somehow can calculate (or get data from ship if wireguided) it's speed/course and go towards the "meeting point"?

They head straight to the target. There is no course-prediction capability, nor would you want one. Dead reckoning of the fish is used to determine for the fire control team where it is when it acquires. The torpedo starts "Range-gating" where it immediately pings when it gets a return. The time of pings corresponds to a distance from the torpedo using speed of sound in water. Add the 2 together to get true range to the target.

This is also a way to get the range of a torpedo that has acquired you.

It is quite un-nerving to be in a boat when a torpedo is range-gating on you. I experienced this is the sonar shack when we steered a practice fish 180 on the test range to prevent it from running into a wall. You maintained depth separation, but it was pretty eerie. The active-intercept receiver makes a high-low tone that gets progressively closer together.

[PL_Harpoon]

Originally Posted by TigerDude

They head straight to the target. There is no course-prediction capability, nor would you want one.

Thanks

Originally Posted by TigerDude

Dead reckoning of the fish is used to determine for the fire control team where it is when it acquires. The torpedo starts "Range-gating" where it immediately pings when it gets a return. The time of pings corresponds to a distance from the torpedo using speed of sound in water. Add the 2 together to get true range to the target.

This is also a way to get the range of a torpedo that has acquired you.

It is quite un-nerving to be in a boat when a torpedo is range-gating on you. I experienced this is the sonar shack when we steered a practice fish 180 on the test range to prevent it from running into a wall. You maintained depth separation, but it was pretty eerie. The active-intercept receiver makes a high-low tone that gets progressively closer together.

Cool. Actually I think CW is the only game that does something similair as the frequency increases with torpedo range to target.
Now, if we could somehow get torpedoes to go straight towards their targets...

edit: fixed quotes

[Julhelm]

They used to have a lag pursuit intercept logic where they did just that, but we changed it to lead pursuit based on some info from RA mod I believe. We probably should change it back since the enemies were a lot better at evading the old torpedoes.

[MBot]

Originally Posted by TigerDude

They head straight to the target. There is no course-prediction capability, nor would you want one.

Nor would you need one. Do torpedoes not use proportional navigation? Air-air missiles use this technique since the 50s. Turn until the bearing-rate is zero and you are on a collision course.

[Wiz33]

Originally Posted by MBot

Nor would you need one. Do torpedoes not use proportional navigation? Air-air missiles use this technique since the 50s. Turn until the bearing-rate is zero and you are on a collision course.

Radar guided missile do that because they are guided by the plane's radar which have the target's course and speed. IR homing missile is always a lag pursuit. That's why you set an activation point for the torp so you can fire it at the predicted location and update that while using wire control. Once it goes active and picked up the target, it's lag pursuit unless you control it manually.

[TigerDude]

Originally Posted by PL_Harpoon

I have a small question to the guys "in the know".

Looking how the torpedoes behave in the game vs other sub sims I began to wonder how do torpedoes behave when they acquire a target.
Do they turn straight for the target or do they somehow can calculate (or get data from ship if wireguided) it's speed/course and go towards the "meeting point"?

Originally Posted by MBot

Nor would you need one. Do torpedoes not use proportional navigation? Air-air missiles use this technique since the 50s. Turn until the bearing-rate is zero and you are on a collision course.

I do believe you are right. Solve for constant bearing decreasing range. Bad for ships at sea, good for torpedoes

[MBot]

Originally Posted by Wiz33

Radar guided missile do that because they are guided by the plane's radar which have the target's course and speed. IR homing missile is always a lag pursuit.

That is incorrect. Most famously, the Sidewinder employs proportional navigation.

[Wiz33]

Originally Posted by MBot

That is incorrect. Most famously, the Sidewinder employs proportional navigation.

Proportional navigation is still a form of lag pursuit as in the missile fly in a curve line. New missiles like the AMRAAM flys straight towards the predicted target location upon intercept.

[MBot]

Originally Posted by Wiz33

Proportional navigation is still a form of lag pursuit as in the missile fly in a curve line. New missiles like the AMRAAM flys straight towards the predicted target location upon intercept.

That is not correct, proportional navigation against a non-maneuvering target is a straight line to intercept. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_navigation