Realism mod (discussion)

[PL_Harpoon]

I think, with all the available exposed parameters it's more up to us, than developers to find the most realistic parameters for various systems in the game.

The reason for this thread is that we can discuss ideas to make the game more realistic within the boundaries of what's currently possible. I don't want this thread to turn into "what could have been done if the devs do xxx" so that we can focus on the actual improvements. Then we could put everything together and release as a realism mod.

For starters, here are a couple of ideas from me:

1. The towed array should be more sensitive in comparison to spherical one.
While playing DW I noticed that towed array usually can detect targets at almost twice the range of sphere sonar. I could be wrong with the numbers here but I think there's enough people here with enough knowledge to find the proper values. In any case I think we should either improve the towed array or nerf passive sonar.

2. Mark 48:
- sensor range should be 1600 instead of current 4000 (according to this site: https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/mk-48.htm)
- sensor angle should be smaller (currently it's 80 which I think is a little too large)

3. MAD sensor range should be around 200-400 yards, not 1000.
(according to this paper: http://calhoun.nps.edu/bitstream/han...pdf?sequence=1)

4. Sonobuoys should be less effective than dipping sonar - that's just my impressions with my limited time with DW.

What do you think about those ideas?

[Delgard]

What file are these adjusted in? I am thinking a config-type file.

[PL_Harpoon]

MAD range is in config.txt

Sonar/sonobuoys is in sensors.txt

MK48 is in weapons.txt

All in Cold Waters\ColdWaters_Data\StreamingAssets\default

[Delgard]

Thanks PL_Harpoon

[PL_Harpoon]

Did some research on Russian torpedoes and found some interesting data:

TEST-71
real range should be about 22000 instead of 27300 yards
sensor range: 1500 vs current 800

UGMT-1
The sources I found show that it should have a small warhead of 60 Kg. Currently it has 185.

[The Bandit]

Originally Posted by PL_Harpoon

I think, with all the available exposed parameters it's more up to us, than developers to find the most realistic parameters for various systems in the game.

The reason for this thread is that we can discuss ideas to make the game more realistic within the boundaries of what's currently possible. I don't want this thread to turn into "what could have been done if the devs do xxx" so that we can focus on the actual improvements. Then we could put everything together and release as a realism mod.

For starters, here are a couple of ideas from me:

1. The towed array should be more sensitive in comparison to spherical one.
While playing DW I noticed that towed array usually can detect targets at almost twice the range of sphere sonar. I could be wrong with the numbers here but I think there's enough people here with enough knowledge to find the proper values. In any case I think we should either improve the towed array or nerf passive sonar.

2. Mark 48:
- sensor range should be 1600 instead of current 4000 (according to this site: https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/mk-48.htm)
- sensor angle should be smaller (currently it's 80 which I think is a little too large)

3. MAD sensor range should be around 200-400 yards, not 1000.
(according to this paper: http://calhoun.nps.edu/bitstream/han...pdf?sequence=1)

4. Sonobuoys should be less effective than dipping sonar - that's just my impressions with my limited time with DW.

What do you think about those ideas?

I think this is a good idea, and you're generally right in what you are saying, however there are always exceptions.

Early 80s for towed array is a little iffy for me, I think the 688s just had the TB-16 starting out (so did some of the Sturgeons) but many of the others had earlier "clip-on" types BQR-15 and -23 if I'm not mistaken, which were a step or two behind the TB-16 and came with speed restrictions (would be very interesting if the clip-on Towed array could be an inventoried item like the sonobuoys, so if you ripped it off you could choose to fit another when you enter port).

As far as the sonobouys, I'm in agreement, typically I wouldn't think that the batteries would be as strong as what a helo could put out through a dipping sonar, however what I'm most interested in when it comes to buoys is if they act like they "should" specifically if they are alternated over / under the layer and if the AI will use / has to use patterns to correctly localize a contact. My understanding is that until the electronics got a bit more sophisticated, the passive buoys were very general with little to no bearing information, so typically patterns would be dropped and signal strengths compared to localize the contact (or you could risk just dropping an active buoy if you think that the passive contact is strong enough). The point I'm trying to get across is that I don't feel that dropping one buoy which is then followed by a rain of depth charges and torpedoes really fits with realism.

[Delgard]

The MAD Sensor Range setting, where is it located? I looked in Aircraft and Sensors.

[Onkel Neal]

The one thing I would like in a realism mod is an option to turn off real time torpedoes on the map, and replace with bearing lines and sonar pings that get louder and faster.

[Delgard]

Hmm, I would think the Sonar operator would have that and be calling out distance, even general depth as in above or below a layer.

Jonesy did it on the Hunt for Red October...

[Stardog765]

Very excited to see this thread. I can't wait to see what this community comes up with.

[stormrider_sp]

Originally Posted by The Bandit

I think this is a good idea, and you're generally right in what you are saying, however there are always exceptions.

Early 80s for towed array is a little iffy for me, I think the 688s just had the TB-16 starting out (so did some of the Sturgeons) but many of the others had earlier "clip-on" types BQR-15 and -23 if I'm not mistaken, which were a step or two behind the TB-16 and came with speed restrictions (would be very interesting if the clip-on Towed array could be an inventoried item like the sonobuoys, so if you ripped it off you could choose to fit another when you enter port).

As far as the sonobouys, I'm in agreement, typically I wouldn't think that the batteries would be as strong as what a helo could put out through a dipping sonar, however what I'm most interested in when it comes to buoys is if they act like they "should" specifically if they are alternated over / under the layer and if the AI will use / has to use patterns to correctly localize a contact. My understanding is that until the electronics got a bit more sophisticated, the passive buoys were very general with little to no bearing information, so typically patterns would be dropped and signal strengths compared to localize the contact (or you could risk just dropping an active buoy if you think that the passive contact is strong enough). The point I'm trying to get across is that I don't feel that dropping one buoy which is then followed by a rain of depth charges and torpedoes really fits with realism.

Regarding the Sonobuoys and other realism issues, the thing is that there are so many shortcuts and oversimplifications in the physics engine of this game that the mere fact of inputing real data won't necessarily give the expected real results.

In this specific case of a dipping sonar being stronger than a sonobuoy, the dipping sonar is also affected strongly by a perpendicular radiated noise coming from the host platform, the helicopter, while the sonobuoy enjoys a lower ambient noise and interference. Now, is the helicopter noise simulated? Is any noise even properly simulated*?!



Driving a submarine in 3d as you would in a Flight sim is really enjoyable, but there's just not too much of subsim in this game yet. I really hope that the devs will find ways to include old hardcore subsimmers in their public, cause, for me, there's really not much in there. For me the sole fact that soviet ssns start any scenario already pinging is already a show stopper.

Originally Posted by stormrider_sp

Driving a submarine in 3d as you would in a Flight sim is really enjoyable, but there's just not too much of subsim in this game yet. I really hope that the devs will find ways to include old hardcore subsimmers in their public, cause, for me, there's really not much in there. For me the sole fact that soviet ssns start any scenario already pinging is already a show stopper.

Can I give you a hug?

Because you spoke with my Heart on your tongue, really.
Let me give you a hug.

Where are you going.
Stop.
STOP!

HUG ME!

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by stormrider_sp

Driving a submarine in 3d as you would in a Flight sim is really enjoyable, but there's just not too much of subsim in this game yet. I really hope that the devs will find ways to include old hardcore subsimmers in their public, cause, for me, there's really not much in there. For me the sole fact that soviet ssns start any scenario already pinging is already a show stopper.

I'll actually disagree. Having played DW, SC and 688 before moving to this, I find myself actually being much more of a submariner and concentrating much harder with this game than in the sims. I am actually sneaking around, desperately checking my counterdetection margin and clearing datum trying to dodge those Super-Silexes.

Though nominally the first three are sims, I actually play them in a much more "gamey" fashion. I would use flank speed a lot, run at flank speed 5 feet above the ocean floor, use active just because I'm impatient for the TMA, compensate for bad solutions by "flying" my torpedoes because a lot of the time the sim lets you get away with this stuff. Even if they flip a torpedo at you, they are relatively easy to dodge. The sim just doesn't punish you very hard. Now I am being punished for the smallest indiscretions.

The Soviet SSNs don't often ping in my experience at the start, though they do ping in mid-combat. Personally, I interpret this as them having gotten a whiff of me and immediately deciding to sanitize the closest 10000 or so yards to them. Anyway, the truth is that you generally have a counterdetection advantage, so if you don't let them ping you are basically asking them to be lambs versus your new, superior Los Angeles class sub.

[Monkie]

Please allow me to vent a second:

The steam forums are full of people whining and crying that it doesn't feel like a subsim because of the controls. Now I come here and see that true subsim fans are trying to better the game with productive conversation, which is great.

If you feel the game is broken, unrealistic, etc that is wonderful, but why would you try to derail a thread that is doing it's best to move forward and make the game better?

You seriously think a couple of developers can create a sonar simulation so accurate that it's simulates the blade-wash off a hovering ASW helicopter?

If you feel it's silly because it doesn't have a multi-million dollar sonar simulation then relax, and wait another decade and hopefully somebody will create that simulator for you. Maybe the USN will sell you it's old software by then.

Now I hope this thread goes back to those who I'm sure will make the game even more enjoyable for the community wanting a bit more realism.

[PL_Harpoon]

I think expecting CW to accurately simulate every aspect is is just misinterpreting the game. It's about making tactical/strategic decisions as a captain of a nuclear sub.

For example, I'm sure the captain does need to know how the sound moves through water, so he can give orders to optimize detection, if needed. But he doesn't need to know every detail of it.
And so the game doesn't need to simulate stuff that wouldn't affect the captain's decisions.

Right now we can change sensitivity for different sensors, weapon parameters and ship data. All that's left is to find values that give results as close to real ones as possible.
And I agree with Stormrider_sp, that putting real data will get us closer to realism. If a non-real value will give real result that's fine by me. We'll put that one and enjoy the game.
The biggest problem with that is that there is very little actual data on the subject. We can't say, for example, with fill certainty, how far away should a Soviet sonar buoy detect a LA class sub sailing at 5kn in calm weather. That's why I made this thread. So that we can get some sort of consensus on what things need changing and which values would give more realistic results.

So far the thing that most of us seems to agree is that weapons need more punch.