So rich and yet so poor

[Skybird]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/12/t...-fortunes.html

To me Bitcoins are just FIAT currency units without paper and central bank control. No real money. The features of the security technology might be interesting, but the economic interpretation of the phenomenon is most absurd.

The next wave of symptoms of the Fiat currency crisis promises to become so devastating ion scale and reach maybe that there will be sufficiently strong calls for a return to real money, hopefully, this would put chains both on recklessly spending governments, and companies alike. The road from here to there will be a most rocky one, however. We desperately need a real commodity money again, not this self-deception we currently "pay" with.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Skybird

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/12/t...-fortunes.html

To me Bitcoins are just FIAT currency units without paper and central bank control. No real money. The features of the security technology might be interesting, but the economic interpretation of the phenomenon is most absurd.

The next wave of symptoms of the Fiat currency crisis promises to become so devastating ion scale and reach maybe that there will be sufficiently strong calls for a return to real money, hopefully, this would put chains both on recklessly spending governments, and companies alike. The road from here to there will be a most rocky one, however. We desperately need a real commodity money again, not this self-deception we currently "pay" with.

Apologies for resurecting this zombie thread, but What is 'real money'? Do you mean Money backed by a comodity like the US dollar used to be backed by gold? Bitcoin is an effective digital store of value/asset for the time being, Its certainly not money and could never be money due to its many limitations, like fiat currency - its digital, but the similarities end there. In the current climate, it is far better to be invested in almost ANYTHHING but fiat currency. Gold, bitcoin, stocks, real estate, all of those despite their various risks and short comings, will likley all hold their ground far better than central bank issued currency, which, by design only deprieciates in value until it eventually fails and must be replaced.

[Skybird]

I meant a commodity money based on market goods and trading them, unmanipulated by politicians and governments.



I understand thn ehoes and ideas behind crypto currencies. I just disagree with the claim that these are comaoravole to lets say gold, since gold has a physical presence, bits and bytes have not. I also disagree with the implications made by money that with crypto currency "you are "safe form the state".



State monopoles for minting and money control are one of the very biggest evils in the world. Its hard to imagine anything that is as bad for man as this is. It is the root evil for a whole rat's tail of subsequent evils.

Politicians must not be given power over money. Never. Never. Never.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I meant a commodity money based on market goods and trading them, unmanipulated by politicians and governments.



I understand thn ehoes and ideas behind crypto currencies. I just disagree with the claim that these are comaoravole to lets say gold, since gold has a physical presence, bits and bytes have not. I also disagree with the implications made by money that with crypto currency "you are "safe form the state".



State monopoles for minting and money control are one of the very biggest evils in the world. Its hard to imagine anything that is as bad for man as this is. It is the root evil for a whole rat's tail of subsequent evils.

Politicians must not be given power over money. Never. Never. Never.

Gold and Bitcoin both have their distinct advantages and disadvantages.
The term 'crypto currencies' is very misleading now as they are for most part not currencies what so ever, more like very speculative tech and meme stocks, and yes, with exception of Monero and the Privacy chains all (including bitcoin) are very transparent and every transaction on their block explorers can be veiwed by anyone.

[Skybird]

I speak of crypto currency regarding the intended function. But it is no commodity whatever. "Bitcoin" is a (security) tehcnology.



Centrla banks, aka states and national govenrments, will never accept crypto currency to become a real rival to state's counterfeit money. And yes. It can be banned and controlled.


Gold cna be taken and hidden away. It is materially exoitsnt. crpyto currency is just an idea, a flow of electrons in a wire, bits and bytes. Nothing. The astronomical ammount of energy used to "mine" (how wrong) bitcoins, is perverse.



Its an interesting security technology, the blockchain. But it is no material commodity at all.



Many people seem to fundamentally misunderstand this.



Also, how criminal syndicates can secretly control and manipulate crypto currency systems.


If you want to comoare crypto currencies and metals, then comoare not to metal itself, but the paper form of it, whcih is no metal at all. People accepting to buy paper gold for protection reasons, have a very fundamental flaw in their tuunking: a piece of paper is no solid gold.
States and governments know this, thats why they so often try prohibit private possession of gold. I fear its only a question of time before they do it again in our countries.


Because, as you maybe remember: "Niemand hat die Absicht, eine Mauer zu bauen." (Walter Ulbricht, June 1961, two months before the wall in Berlin was built).

[em2nought]

Real money is what I have in my safe deposit box, although I don't like the idea that I might not be able to get to it should I really need to. I am thinking of living in a country that is way more friendly to "real" money.

Good luck stopping wasteful spending by power hungry governments.

[mapuc]

I have the same dream as Gene Roddenberry had when he was alive.
A money free based society.

It can be done-I admit it would be almost impossible, but we are in fact getting there step by step.

Today you can buy or pay for everything without having real money between your fingers.

In the early morning-Money was important as bills had to be paid and food on the table. Today money is only a number on a computer screen.

So I say we are slowly getting there.

Markus

[Skybird]

And power's coming from the wallmount, food comes form the supermarket and nobody needs to do the dirty work anymore and if we lean back and open the mouth, honey and milk will flow down our throats.



Bartering is what its about, Markus. A real, honest money reflects that, becasue a comdooty of any kind used as money stems from the process of and agreeing on bartering. If you say that sort of money is not needed, you say that bartering is not needed anymore. But that implies that everybody has everything and all from nothing.


So despite the inherent implication of that then everybody would have way too much time to think of how to do something silly, my question to you is just this:


"How?"

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by em2nought

Good luck stopping wasteful spending by power hungry governments.

Its called delay in filing for insolvency. In Germany at least that is a punishable crime. It is also about balance sheet fraud and immeasurable money counterfeiting as a means to an end.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Skybird

And power's coming from the wallmount, food comes form the supermarket and nobody needs to do the dirty work anymore and if we lean back and open the mouth, honey and milk will flow down our throats.



Bartering is what its about, Markus. A real, honest money reflects that, becasue a comdooty of any kind used as money stems from the process of and agreeing on bartering. If you say that sort of money is not needed, you say that bartering is not needed anymore. But that implies that everybody has everything and all from nothing.


So despite the inherent implication of that then everybody would have way too much time to think of how to do something silly, my question to you is just this:


"How?"

Today people get their money into their bank account and they don't have to have money between their fingers to live a good life.

In Gene's world people work to improve them self and the society they live in.

No it will NOT be a time of free milk and honey-People have to do work as good as they can and as much they can.

The Elder will earn points based on how much they have worked before their retirement.

I'm not an expert on this money-thing, I just have this dream an impossible dream it seems.

Markus

[Oubaas]

My Dad was right when I was a kid. I really DO want everything handed to me on a silver platter. That would be just fine with me!

Unfortunately, I already worked my entire life and retired. So it would just be a little extra gravy if it happened, at this late stage of my life.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by mapuc

Today people get their money into their bank account and they don't have to have money between their fingers to live a good life.

That difference is illusory, the one is banknotes and coins and both are not based on commodities, and the other is electrinic money or bookm money, again not basing on commodities. Both can be transferred into the other format, both are two aggregate states - to give it a name - of one and the same counterfeit money: FIAT money.



FIAT money and fractional reserve banking: the two master assassins of every economic systen and of liberal political order and freedom.


In Roddenberry's vision, people do not need to work for a living, its guaranteed. He assumed people would automatically do the idealistically best if given endless free time and free choice and all material needs are gone, no bills must be paid, and no economic responsibility emerges from endlessly taking from the ressourc epool, the common wealth. For ann utopiuc idelaist this ma ysounbd reasonabvle ti expect, foir a realist - well, I think we cna know it better. Its against human nature to be 100% altruistic, seeking self-realisation ony and caring maximum for all others. Man also is greedy, lazy, lustful, and never gets enough, wants to possess and to own - and ever more of stuff.



Roddenberry based on a population of self-aware Buddhas. Well. We are certainly far from that. We have had extebsuve freedoms and wealth in the West. Look what we voluntarily, needlessly made of them. Hardly something desirable, judging by the current state of things and the projected trends of where things will go further.


There must always be those who carry out the garbage and do the dirty work. And they don't do this to realize themselves, but for the standardized and standardizing consideration - MONEY. Milk and honey do not flow all by themselves.

[Oubaas]

A recent study found that if humans had unlimited leisure, 98.74% of the species would spend the rest of their lives looking at Internet porn and eating Doritos. The rest would get permanently drunk.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I speak of crypto currency regarding the intended function. But it is no commodity whatever. "Bitcoin" is a (security) tehcnology.



Centrla banks, aka states and national govenrments, will never accept crypto currency to become a real rival to state's counterfeit money. And yes. It can be banned and controlled.


Gold cna be taken and hidden away. It is materially exoitsnt. crpyto currency is just an idea, a flow of electrons in a wire, bits and bytes. Nothing. The astronomical ammount of energy used to "mine" (how wrong) bitcoins, is perverse.



Its an interesting security technology, the blockchain. But it is no material commodity at all.



Many people seem to fundamentally misunderstand this.



Also, how criminal syndicates can secretly control and manipulate crypto currency systems.


If you want to comoare crypto currencies and metals, then comoare not to metal itself, but the paper form of it, whcih is no metal at all. People accepting to buy paper gold for protection reasons, have a very fundamental flaw in their tuunking: a piece of paper is no solid gold.
States and governments know this, thats why they so often try prohibit private possession of gold. I fear its only a question of time before they do it again in our countries.


Because, as you maybe remember: "Niemand hat die Absicht, eine Mauer zu bauen." (Walter Ulbricht, June 1961, two months before the wall in Berlin was built).

Fair enough, you do you, I do agree with about half of your points but perhaps not the point about governments ability to easily enforce a ban on something global and decentralised, its already been tried multiple times by China and Inda, failed miserably and nobody cared. Doubtful a US or EU ban would fair much better in the long term.

and also where criminal syndicate manipulation of BTC is concerned, that honestly sounds abit like Chrisine Lagaurda propaganda. So i have ill to pass on that.

Also dont quite agree you need to be able to physically touch something for it to hold value, other wise by the same logic, stocks of big tech companies like Open AI, MS, Alphabet or Meta dont really hold any value either. since that too is all just a bunch of 1's and 0's

I dont doubt that at some point this century Bitcoin will either, fade in to irrelivance, or implode horribly when a quantum computer cracks it and somehow mints a 21,000,001th bitcoin.
but so what? Everything is finite, everythign has risk, is all that paper gold (which most gold poeple own Im afraid) backed up one to one and accounted for? probably not and what happens if the lid gets blown off that one during a run on gold?, plus more of it is mined everyday and when earth runs out there is more in space, so even Golds reign as a store of value will have end one day. But once again - so what? There is no such thing as 100% safe asset/security/store of value what have you. Gov can sieze your gold, or seize your house just as easily as seize your bitcoin.

We only need to really concern our selves with the present and perhaps a 10-15 year time span when it comes to investments, because 20+ years down the road is near impossible to accuratly predict. Even if you nail the right events, the timing of them will probably be some way off.
And in this case, BTC has quite simply outperformed everything, So it makes more sense to hold a little bit than wave an angry fist at the new thing which doesnt make sense, from the side lines. That usually doesnt pay off very well when it comes to new innovations. Im willing to wager both gold and bitcoin will out live me, Bitcoin is 'probably' going to pay off my mortgage by next year, the same investment in gold almost certianly would not have Unless we fiat collapes this year, but think there is still abit more can kicking road left than that.


So i guess it just depends what you want. If we are talking of an epic collapes, (since the lights need to be on to transact in bitcoin). then gold is almost certainly a safer bet, food and guns even safer. For me personally, Bitcoin did its job.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by JU_88

Also dont quite agree you need to be able to physically touch something for it to hold value, other wise by the same logic, stocks of big tech companies like Open AI, MS, Alphabet or Meta dont really hold any value either. since that too is all just a bunch of 1's and 0's

Indeed history holds more thna just one lesson on stock owner sahavign ost everything in turbulent times due to economic breakdowns and inflation leading to collapsing stock markets. Its just paper with ink on it, or bits and bytes. A Gold bar you still hld in yoru ahnd when a bank collapses or an economy goes down, your stock papers - well...


Stocks for gambling, investing, tying to generate a profit. Gold for securing wealth. I went out fo stocks years ago when I realsied that I wa sunable to underdstand any longer the rice development. That rang my alarm bell. Or as Buffet said: never do something that you do not understand why you do it.

I dont doubt that at some point this century Bitcoin will either, fade in to irrelivance, or implode horribly when a quantum computer cracks it and somehow mints a 21,000,001th bitcoin.
but so what? Everything is finite, everythign has risk, is all that paper gold (which most gold poeple own Im afraid) backed up one to one and accounted for? probably not and what happens if the lid gets blown off that one during a run on gold?, plus more of it is mined everyday and when earth runs out there is more in space, so even Golds reign as a store of value will have end one day. But once again - so what? There is no such thing as 100% safe asset/security/store of value what have you. Gov can sieze your gold, or seize your house just as easily as seize your bitcoin.

As a matter of fact the total ammount of gold known and handled by mankind since centuries and millenia is relatively stable not comolketely, but its not as if it adding up from year to year in totals. Most gold, over 97% I think I red, that gets traded around in one year, is not newly mined gold, but old gold that just changes ownership.

So i guess it just depends what you want. If we are talking of an epic collapes, (since the lights need to be on to transact in bitcoin). then gold is almost certainly a safer bet, food and guns even safer. For me personally, Bitcoin did its job.

Good for you, Gold did it for me, and twice. I once bought a bigger ammojnt, then have to sell most of it due to financing legal disputes of my fmaiyl and my parents that costed me a higher six digit sum, and then again bought gold and by now have doubled the value I invested. The best is: I did not even mean to invest, gold is no investment in my book, but a safety, a prtection, a secruign attempt. Its not meant to generate profit, but it can, but that is just a bonus in my view.



Compare gold prices 2015 and 2016 with gold prices today and the near future, then you understand what I mean. And I did that timing right twice, compare early 2000s to ~2010, and 2015/16 to present. Several hundred percent value gain. Not many stocks can keep up. Even less stocks that are not hopelessly overvalued.



Or does anyone want to tell me that a company producing nothing can gain 500% in value form oen year to the next...? Thats canibal economics. Drivel. Runs only as long as nobody asks questions.



In the end, states always sit at the longest lever, to translate a German proverb. By taxing selling and buying, and raising special mortgages, property owners, stock holders, savers and gold owner all can be sanctioned and expropriated. That is true for crypto currency owners, too. There is no other defence against the state than to overthrow it. What worth is hidden treasure for you if you cannot use it, must keep it secret, unused? Here is where the state gets you. EVERY TIME. I cna hold metals as many as I want, if I can onyl sell them with a 90% penalty tax, only a tenth of what mine is actually is mine, the rest has already been stolen by the plunderers.



My personal conclusion: I consume my wealth in a controlled manner, trying to time the waning ammount of wealth right with a.) inflation and b.) lifespan. If I get the timing right I will die when I have not much left anymore to leave behind for the plunderers. I have no own family and I owe nothing to anyone else anyhwere. Nobody has a right to point fingers at me. Well, he can, but I must not care for it, I owe him nothing, and the only moral rule I accept is the golden rule. For years I did some unpaid idealistic councelling work and teaching work. I would not do it again for free, it was a mistake. I also did around a dozen of lousy underpaid jobs, nothing of it was the big revelation concenring the meaning of life, I did it because back then I still needed the money, and before that, when I was young and stupid, for adventurism. Nowadays I dont need that money anymore and so I dont do the jobs anymore. I owe nothing to nobody, with the only exception of my mum and my dad who stayed loyal to me and gave me a healthy, safe, warm and caring home when i was young. For that I am eternally thankful to them. Its the very basis of my life and emotional balance today.



But all the other socialist parasites and mades and cleptocrats and redistributors - f### ##u! I owe nothing to nobody, for all debts there once were have already been paid back - and twice and three times already.



No, neither the EU nor German parties will ever become my friends again... I wish the plague and foot-and-mouth disease on every single one of their actors.