WHY God - is there no decent Sailing Ship war game?!?!

UdiHrant · 10-13-11, 10:32 AM

I beseech Thee!

1 - it makes NO sense since there are so many cool stategic, tactical and historic elements to Sailing Ship warfare.

2 - why can't the Total War series be modded specifically into a realistic sim? (I wanna know and have control of what the crew is doing - are they loading guns or tending the sails - I want to know how mad my flooding is and I want to control of my stern and bow chasers - and most important i want to tell signal captain of one of the ships in my command to do a specific thing and not just drift away until I have time to clock on his friggin ship again....is that too much to ask? Lord?)

3 - has anyone tried both Nappy Total War and East India Company to cmpare their 2 naval aspects?

4 - does anyone know of a game creation platform that would be best to try to 'built my own' sim?

5 - any news n the horizon for an upcoming commercial or serious mod sim in this genre?

Thanks.

Amen.

ajrimmer42 · 10-13-11, 12:02 PM

I agree there is defo room in the market for a really decent age of sail naval sim. I mean Empire/Napoleon TW I thought were very good but like you say you can't sort of go into exactly what the crew are doing and whatnot. I've only briefly played EIC and thought it was a bit rubbish tbh. Can't remember why lol, just did.

oche · 10-13-11, 02:30 PM

Last good sailing ship game i played (which i stopped playing since buggy as hell in Vista) was Age of Pirates.

UdiHrant · 10-13-11, 02:53 PM

The eye candy and models in Nappy Total War are just fine but of course the speed is silly fast.

I would settle for a good top-down representation of a sea battle if the right elements were presented.

I would picture the following:
- reasonably accurate ship types and performance, speed, turning, firepower
- crew management including the ability to delegate on a few levels, captain, helmsman, gunners, sail management, repair, marines
- damage detail such as flooding, list, sail and mast, guns destroyed

The computing power and sophistication for this level of game is about 15 years old so im mystified as to why someone hasn't done one lately.

Salvo comes to mind but is butt-ugly.

jason210 · 10-17-11, 01:14 PM

Asw mentioned, Empire Total War, Napoleon Total War and East India Company all have decent sailing ship war games. The only problem with those is that none offer a simulation - the controls are like left, right, stop, go & go faster; and it all happens too quickly.

Napoleon TW offered the most immersion if you change the camera in the preferences script to unlock the developers camera which then allows you to move right in on the ship and move around and inside the decks.

There's definitely a gap in the market for a proper battle sailing simulator though, kind of along the Hornblower / Master and Commander lines, where you are not restricted by boundaries as in total war, and where you can actually dock in historic ports and so on. Would be so cool!

soopaman2 · 10-17-11, 06:40 PM

The closest I came to a decent age of sail era game was Empire Total war.

Too bad you were rarely attacked navally. Amongst all the other broken crap in that game. So much promise too.

Sailor Steve · 10-17-11, 07:06 PM

The last sailing-warfare game I liked was Man O' War II.
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/...%3Bread-review

The point-of-view was first-person from the poop-deck of your own ship. There was a real-time map to help you keep abreast of the action, which helped because you couldn't always tell exactly what was going on.

It was limited but fun for awhile.

10-17-11, 08:05 PM

I will still fire up the original Talonsoft Age of Sail although like all early John Tiller naval games it ignores the existence of little things like land, time of day and for the most part, weather. Age of Sail 2 was a minor improvement in some respects but was self-limiting due to the total absence of a scenario editor.

In this age of instant gratification, the pace of any sailing ship combat simulator would be far too slow for the ADHD generation given that movement to contact was typically at a mere 2 or 3 knots. Nelson's ships took some 6-hours to close on the Combined Fleet, every minute of which changed the relative positions of the forces but even with TC would proceed at a snail's pace for the patience challenged out there. Of course the battles could always commence within firing range and so any simulator worthy of the name would probably conclude in historical results as many naval actions were decided before the first shot was fired due to relative positions when combat commenced.

Also, graphics fanatics would endlessly nit-pick specific rigging arrangements, paint schemes and of course, the player perspective would require either a horrible god's-eye view (like SES Jutland/Distant Guns) or a quarterdeck POV that would limit the spectacle aspects of the game. Finding common ground for these fundamental programming considerations would be next to impossible.

So, I suspect given the very limited potential commercial market and the inherent difficulty of meeting gamer's expectations we will not see any mainstream sailing warship simulator worthy of the name. That said, there's always a chance that some independent person or team will produce one as a labour of love but don't hold your breath.

I feel your pain at this omission but do not expect anything to change anytime soon.

tater · 10-27-11, 11:10 AM

I agree. TW is weak. The first requirement for a decent age of sail sim is an accurate sailing model.

What I want is a frigate game. Or even a sloop of war. Sailing as the primary simulation. Gunnery, boarding, etc is easy by comparison. Allow grognard controls as an option, but have an easier mode with a "sailing master." You are skipper, and simply tell (or ask via GUI) the sailing master what you can do—put her "alongside at pistol shot on the larboard tack." (then it does that).

con20or · 12-08-11, 03:54 PM

Amen brothers - and I loved Man O'War II as well. You were supposedly able to give fleet and squadron orders by flag.

I never could get them to work though..

I would love a good sim of a friagate and etc, with a dynamic campaign.

There are plenty of sailing sims out there, but they are all for yachts/laser dinghies etc - like Virtual Skipper 4- Im sure it wouldnt be too hard to edit them for an old warship.

soopaman2 · 12-09-11, 05:25 PM

ETW/NTW with Darthmod (a popular mod) slowed the naval battles down, but was still constrained to the limits of the engine.

It came close, real close. But the land battles was the highlight of the games, which left the naval side shorted.

I always thought a game based strictly on age of sail warfare would catch enough sales to justify making it, especially if you make it easily moddable. (unlike ETW/NTW)

Takeda Shingen · 12-09-11, 06:36 PM

I have nothing to add other than that I would love a study-style age of sail sim. I confess to modding a cannon on the player-made model of HMS Bounty for Virtual Sailor and playing pirate.

Yes, I am that big of a loser.

CaptainHaplo · 12-09-11, 06:40 PM

If your willing o make it single ship combat - EIC set on simulation (and seriously tweaked) is actually NOT bad. The perspective leaves much to be desired, and controls are at best "basic" - but the FEEL is right - at least for me.

con20or · 12-10-11, 05:45 AM

virtual sailor HMS Bounty looks interesting - what sort of control do you have over the sails?

Its usually just furled, battle and full. Agoe of Sail 2 had a speed bar, but I would love to see a game that had control of all the sails, you could tick which ones you ant set, and if the wind was too strong, risk losing that spar.

con20or · 12-10-11, 11:24 AM

This looks interesting

http://home.wxs.nl/~pdavis/Screen.htm

10-13-11, 10:32 AM	#1
UdiHrant Seaman Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 33 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	WHY God - is there no decent Sailing Ship war game?!?! I beseech Thee! 1 - it makes NO sense since there are so many cool stategic, tactical and historic elements to Sailing Ship warfare. 2 - why can't the Total War series be modded specifically into a realistic sim? (I wanna know and have control of what the crew is doing - are they loading guns or tending the sails - I want to know how mad my flooding is and I want to control of my stern and bow chasers - and most important i want to tell signal captain of one of the ships in my command to do a specific thing and not just drift away until I have time to clock on his friggin ship again....is that too much to ask? Lord?) 3 - has anyone tried both Nappy Total War and East India Company to cmpare their 2 naval aspects? 4 - does anyone know of a game creation platform that would be best to try to 'built my own' sim? 5 - any news n the horizon for an upcoming commercial or serious mod sim in this genre? Thanks. Amen.

10-13-11, 12:02 PM	#2
ajrimmer42 Royal Kinotropist Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sheffield, UK Posts: 987 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	I agree there is defo room in the market for a really decent age of sail naval sim. I mean Empire/Napoleon TW I thought were very good but like you say you can't sort of go into exactly what the crew are doing and whatnot. I've only briefly played EIC and thought it was a bit rubbish tbh. Can't remember why lol, just did. __________________ Alex Don't judge a ship by the number of it's guns, but by the skill of it's crew.

10-17-11, 01:14 PM	#5
jason210 Sonar Guy Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sweden / UK Posts: 386 Downloads: 33 Uploads: 0	Asw mentioned, Empire Total War, Napoleon Total War and East India Company all have decent sailing ship war games. The only problem with those is that none offer a simulation - the controls are like left, right, stop, go & go faster; and it all happens too quickly. Napoleon TW offered the most immersion if you change the camera in the preferences script to unlock the developers camera which then allows you to move right in on the ship and move around and inside the decks. There's definitely a gap in the market for a proper battle sailing simulator though, kind of along the Hornblower / Master and Commander lines, where you are not restricted by boundaries as in total war, and where you can actually dock in historic ports and so on. Would be so cool! __________________ Intel Core i9-9900K @ 3.6 GHz nVidia GeForce RTX 2070 32GB memory Windows 10 Pro

10-17-11, 06:40 PM	#6
soopaman2 Der Alte Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 3,316 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 0	The closest I came to a decent age of sail era game was Empire Total war. Too bad you were rarely attacked navally. Amongst all the other broken crap in that game. So much promise too. __________________ If Hitler invaded Hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons. -Winston Churchill- The most fascinating man in the world.

10-17-11, 07:06 PM	#7
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	The last sailing-warfare game I liked was Man O' War II. http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/...%3Bread-review The point-of-view was first-person from the poop-deck of your own ship. There was a real-time map to help you keep abreast of the action, which helped because you couldn't always tell exactly what was going on. It was limited but fun for awhile. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

10-13-11, 02:30 PM	#3
oche Electrician's Mate Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Santo Domingo Posts: 131 Downloads: 94 Uploads: 0	Last good sailing ship game i played (which i stopped playing since buggy as hell in Vista) was Age of Pirates.

10-13-11, 02:53 PM	#4
UdiHrant Seaman Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 33 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	The eye candy and models in Nappy Total War are just fine but of course the speed is silly fast. I would settle for a good top-down representation of a sea battle if the right elements were presented. I would picture the following: - reasonably accurate ship types and performance, speed, turning, firepower - crew management including the ability to delegate on a few levels, captain, helmsman, gunners, sail management, repair, marines - damage detail such as flooding, list, sail and mast, guns destroyed The computing power and sophistication for this level of game is about 15 years old so im mystified as to why someone hasn't done one lately. Salvo comes to mind but is butt-ugly.

10-17-11, 08:05 PM	#8
Randomizer Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	I will still fire up the original Talonsoft Age of Sail although like all early John Tiller naval games it ignores the existence of little things like land, time of day and for the most part, weather. Age of Sail 2 was a minor improvement in some respects but was self-limiting due to the total absence of a scenario editor. In this age of instant gratification, the pace of any sailing ship combat simulator would be far too slow for the ADHD generation given that movement to contact was typically at a mere 2 or 3 knots. Nelson's ships took some 6-hours to close on the Combined Fleet, every minute of which changed the relative positions of the forces but even with TC would proceed at a snail's pace for the patience challenged out there. Of course the battles could always commence within firing range and so any simulator worthy of the name would probably conclude in historical results as many naval actions were decided before the first shot was fired due to relative positions when combat commenced. Also, graphics fanatics would endlessly nit-pick specific rigging arrangements, paint schemes and of course, the player perspective would require either a horrible god's-eye view (like SES Jutland/Distant Guns) or a quarterdeck POV that would limit the spectacle aspects of the game. Finding common ground for these fundamental programming considerations would be next to impossible. So, I suspect given the very limited potential commercial market and the inherent difficulty of meeting gamer's expectations we will not see any mainstream sailing warship simulator worthy of the name. That said, there's always a chance that some independent person or team will produce one as a labour of love but don't hold your breath. I feel your pain at this omission but do not expect anything to change anytime soon.

10-27-11, 11:10 AM	#9
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	I agree. TW is weak. The first requirement for a decent age of sail sim is an accurate sailing model. What I want is a frigate game. Or even a sloop of war. Sailing as the primary simulation. Gunnery, boarding, etc is easy by comparison. Allow grognard controls as an option, but have an easier mode with a "sailing master." You are skipper, and simply tell (or ask via GUI) the sailing master what you can do—put her "alongside at pistol shot on the larboard tack." (then it does that). __________________ "Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one." — Thomas Paine

12-08-11, 03:54 PM	#10
con20or Lieutenant Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ireland Posts: 269 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	Amen brothers - and I loved Man O'War II as well. You were supposedly able to give fleet and squadron orders by flag. I never could get them to work though.. I would love a good sim of a friagate and etc, with a dynamic campaign. There are plenty of sailing sims out there, but they are all for yachts/laser dinghies etc - like Virtual Skipper 4- Im sure it wouldnt be too hard to edit them for an old warship. __________________ QA Lead on Scourge of War - http://www.scourgeofwar.com/index.shtml (98% rating on Armchair general) - http://www.armchairgeneral.com/scour...ame-review.htm SoW Waterloo Announced for 2015!!

12-09-11, 05:25 PM	#11
soopaman2 Der Alte Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 3,316 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 0	ETW/NTW with Darthmod (a popular mod) slowed the naval battles down, but was still constrained to the limits of the engine. It came close, real close. But the land battles was the highlight of the games, which left the naval side shorted. I always thought a game based strictly on age of sail warfare would catch enough sales to justify making it, especially if you make it easily moddable. (unlike ETW/NTW) __________________ If Hitler invaded Hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons. -Winston Churchill- The most fascinating man in the world.

12-09-11, 06:36 PM	#12
Takeda Shingen Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2000 Posts: 8,643 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	I have nothing to add other than that I would love a study-style age of sail sim. I confess to modding a cannon on the player-made model of HMS Bounty for Virtual Sailor and playing pirate. Yes, I am that big of a loser.

12-09-11, 06:40 PM	#13
CaptainHaplo Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,404 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 0	If your willing o make it single ship combat - EIC set on simulation (and seriously tweaked) is actually NOT bad. The perspective leaves much to be desired, and controls are at best "basic" - but the FEEL is right - at least for me. __________________ Good Hunting! Captain Haplo

12-10-11, 05:45 AM	#14
con20or Lieutenant Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ireland Posts: 269 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	virtual sailor HMS Bounty looks interesting - what sort of control do you have over the sails? Its usually just furled, battle and full. Agoe of Sail 2 had a speed bar, but I would love to see a game that had control of all the sails, you could tick which ones you ant set, and if the wind was too strong, risk losing that spar. __________________ QA Lead on Scourge of War - http://www.scourgeofwar.com/index.shtml (98% rating on Armchair general) - http://www.armchairgeneral.com/scour...ame-review.htm SoW Waterloo Announced for 2015!!

12-10-11, 11:24 AM	#15
con20or Lieutenant Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ireland Posts: 269 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	This looks interesting http://home.wxs.nl/~pdavis/Screen.htm __________________ QA Lead on Scourge of War - http://www.scourgeofwar.com/index.shtml (98% rating on Armchair general) - http://www.armchairgeneral.com/scour...ame-review.htm SoW Waterloo Announced for 2015!!