[REL] Hydrophones workaround...

[LGN1]

Thanks, Leitender!

Based on several accounts I also think the KDB was in addition to the GHG and not a replacement (the original U-Bootskunde for the VIIC also indicates that it was an additional equipment). However, I have not seen any clear document

Anyway, for my personal use I will make the in-game KDB a hybrid of the GHG and KDB. For the upper layer (attack depths) I will use KDB settings, for an intermediate layer GHG settings (long range search), and for the deepest layer again KDB settings (for evading escorts).

Regards, LGN1

[sublynx]

U-boat POW interrogation reports nearly always have a list of gear that the U-boat carried. For example here:

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-660INT.htm

Maybe reading a few of these would be helpful.

[jaxa]

Hi Rubini, old friend
How to merge your Hydrophones workaround mod with your superb Unofficial rocket fix? I'd like to use them both, but sensors.dat file is a problem.

[LGN1]

E. Rössler in his book 'Geschichte des deutschen U-Bootsbaus' writes '...zusätzlich noch ein drehbares Kristallbasisgerät (KDB)...'.

It seems the KDB was indeed mounted in addition to the GHG.

Regards, LGN1

[Leitender]

Sublynx,

thank you very much.

http://www.uboatarchive.net/index.html

is a great source for technical information from first hand. And it is still growing!

LGN1,

Btw, "zusätzlich" means "additional"

The following question is: if both devices were mounted at the same time, were they also manned at the same time? Maybe at least during action stations? That seems possible for me.

Concerning the game: It seems that Silent Hunter is only able to use one sensor type at the same time. If we are right that the KDB was used as an addtion to the GHG, and both hydrophones were used together, we can merge the properties of both sensor types into the KDB sensor, like you did it. My conclusion was to merge the properties for every layer if both were used at the same time.

Have you read anything about range values of the KDB? The ratings of the crews were rather different. Most said the KDB was unreliable and way too sensitive. Others were really confident about much more precise bearings than they had got with the GHG alone.

Greetings

[BigWalleye]

Originally Posted by Leitender

Sublynx,

thank you very much.

http://www.uboatarchive.net/index.html

is a great source for technical information from first hand. And it is still growing!

LGN1,

Btw, "zusätzlich" means "additional"

The following question is: if both devices were mounted at the same time, were they also manned at the same time? Maybe at least during action stations? That seems possible for me.

Concerning the game: It seems that Silent Hunter is only able to use one sensor type at the same time. If we are right that the KDB was used as an addtion to the GHG, and both hydrophones were used together, we can merge the properties of both sensor types into the KDB sensor, like you did it. My conclusion was to merge the properties for every layer if both were used at the same time.

Have you read anything about range values of the KDB? The ratings of the crews were rather different. Most said the KDB was unreliable and way too sensitive. Others were really confident about much more precise bearings than they had got with the GHG alone.

Greetings

Leitender, I can see one potential problem with merging the capabilities of the two sensors. The KDB had well-documented sensitivity to damage from depth charges. When such damage occurs, the performance advantages of the KDB should be lost, and the hydrophones should revert to GHG. I don't know if this could be implemented in the game short of through a code patch. Without it, the player 's sub either has too much capability or too much damage resistance. Of course, that also presents a problem in the stock version, since a damaged KDB currently means the hydrophones are useless, whereas historically, the sub would still have a functional GHG.

Any modders out there see an ingenious way to tackle this issue?

[Leitender]

BigWalleye,

I see your point, and yes, I had obviously read the same sources like you about the real properties of this listening gear. But concerning the game: The resistance to (?) destruction is controlled in the .zon-file ("hitpoints") and isn´t touched if we change the sensor values. So if you build in a KDB into your boat, you will always load its weak resistance, no matter of the sensors´s abilities. There will be no difference to the stock game behaviour.

The best solution would be to force the exe to load several different sensors of one sensor type. Thus we could give each sensor different settings one by one.

[BigWalleye]

Originally Posted by Leitender

The resistance to (?) destruction is controlled in the .zon-file ("hitpoints") and isn´t touched if we change the sensor values. So if you build in a KDB into your boat, you will always load its weak resistance, no matter of the sensors´s abilities. There will be no difference to the stock game behaviour.

You could change the "hitpoints" also, of course. But that wouldn't really solve the dilemma, because in-game there would still only be one hydrophone set where historically there were two.

The best solution would be to force the exe to load several different sensors of one sensor type. Thus we could give each sensor different settings one by one.

Is there any way of doing that short of a hard-code patch?

[LGN1]

@Leitender: There's not much written about the KDB performance. Rössler mentions an angle resolution of +/-1°, the advantage that it could be used when the boat was on the sea floor, and "allerdings war die Reichweite nicht annähernd so groß wie beim GHG".

I prefer to have 'pure' GHG/KDB settings at each depth layer because this avoids any strange mix-ups (either KDB bearings with GHG range or too short GHG ranges). In addition, for me the KDB has only advantages when attacking and when escaping. In both cases the KDB range is more than enough. So, when searching for ships I dive below 20-25m and use the GHG (settings) and when attacking at periscope depth I have the KDB (settings).

@BigWalleye: I have also thought about modeling how fragile the KDB was according to sources. However, as mentioned before the problem is that the boat has only one hydrophone. If you look at the file Zones.cfg you will find only one entry 'UHydrophReceivers'.

Regards, LGN1

[Leitender]

LGN1,

have you ever tested different bearing accuracies of the hydrophones? I just did it with the radar, where I got some odd results when changing the values. There, it seems to be possible to change bearing accuracy for the player. For the AI radar operator, we cannot proove it because the corresponding order isn´t implemented. But that´s another playground.

I assume you are listening by yourself? I do this because I can get more information from the sound source than the SO alone is able to report me. AFAIK, the listing range for the player can´t be influenced. So if you listen by yourself, then you will always hear a contact at around 30km, no matter what sensor range is set.

If you trust in your SO and you also use Rubini´s hydrophone layer, there´ll be already included a reduction of range - but of course because of external listening circumstances, and not because of a different listening gear.

If I had the choice which gear to use, I would prefer the long range GHG in the deepest layer for reconnaissance as it seemed to be usual for the boats ("Rundhorchen auf 30m"). Only for attacks around periscope depth the better bearing accuracy could give the SO more precise readings. For evasive manouevres I would prefer listing by myself, as mentionend above.

Would you describe your way of handling the sonar system? I really appreciate your substantial postings.

Greetings

[gap]

Nice discussion was going here, I am sorry I didn't notice it before

Having read in the past most of the U-boat survivor interrogation reports, I can confirm that the KDB hydrophone was only used in conjuction with the GHG until both were replaced by the Balkon Gerat. I can add that, due to its limited range, the KDB was only useful during close range engagements, when its better angular resolution (which, by the way, is not easily customizable in game) and its detection field forward, provided some advantages over the GHG. It is also to be noted that due to its position, which exposed it to noise interferences from the water surface, this device was especially useless at shallow depths and yes, it was extremely subject to both damage during depth charging and to flooding at depths under 300 ft.

For the reasons above, it would be utterly unrealistic simulating a KDB upgrade without including the features of the GHG. As noted by BigWalleye, merging the properties of the two sensors in the in-game rendition of the KDB has some severe limitations, but there is another approach that can be used. I don't know how SHIII u-boat upgrads are set, but I and vdr1981 managed making SH5 to "fit" both sensors aboard when the KDB upgrade is selected. Though with some minor glitches, the hydrophone operator is able to use both devices at once, and if the KDB gets broken, he can still use the GHG. The tweaks above were included in vdr's Reworked Submarine Damage mod, now part of The Wolves of Steel. I suggest anyone concerned to have a look into the RSD thread for more details on how we made this to work.

P.S: I would like to have a look into Leitender's tweaks of Rubini's mod, or at least in his release notes, but the mediafire link at post #1 doesn't work anymore, and apparently Leitender has not been active during the last months. Can someone kindly re-uplaod the mod (just Leitender's version of it, the link to the main mod works perfectly)?

[Tycho]

Plissken's server

[gap]

Thank you Sir