Russian Politics Thread - Page 12

Skybird · 09-04-20, 05:46 AM

You want to imply that Navalny was ppoisoned by the US to give Putin a bad name (as if he does not already have that) and to bring Germany to giving up Nord Stream 2?

I thought of that already. But that I did not voice it, I think tells clear enough what I think of that scenario currently: unlikely.

Russia'S top has a long and established record of poisoning its opponents with "signature poisons" and then deny any responsibililty, spread doubt, deflect. Possible maybe that this time somebody in command overestmated the chances to get away with it like the many times before: some diplomatic I-go-you-go, and thats it. And after the many weak replies from Europeans in the past, I can even understand that.

Skybird · 09-04-20, 06:16 AM

German investigators say that a bottle belonging to Navalny showed signs of the poison, but did nto contain it originally. the bottle was collected by relatives of Navalny and brought to Germany together with Navalny. This means that Navalny already was poisoned when he drank from that bottle. Thus he was not poisoned afterwards and outside Russia, in Germany, but in Russia for sure.

Russian official try to rasie doubts on that from beginning on, implying that the germans had poisoned him once Navalny was in Germany. What Russian bull####.

Dmitry Markov · 09-04-20, 08:04 AM

Ha ha ha :-) Navalny relatives brought some bottle into Germany and Germany tells it contains poison

That's what I call an indisputable proof )) Confirmed by truly unbiased source... They have an official declaration that they've brought this bottle from Russia? Or they can somehow indisputably prove how exactly they've managed to bring this bottle to Germany after all investigative actions from SK in Russia ( or didn't bought it in German territory ;-) )? Very weak

That is again a word against a word. Look cui prodest - the only side that gains from that is US, not Russia and not Germany. Gazprom, Putin and whole our people won't gain nothing from stopping the North Stream. To be honest I personally care for North Stream much more than state of Navalny's health ( hope he gets well, of course) or who and why could wish him to not be well. North Stream means our quality of life - food, water, education, medicine etc, Navalny doesn't mean nothing - since he cannot provide neither education, nor food, medicine, nor water, nor heating.

Skybird · 09-04-20, 08:12 AM

Obviously your job is to cleanwash the Russian top, the by far main suspect, no matter what, and in best Trump fashion. Or Putin fashion. Or whomever showed up first with this "style".

And the bottle did not contain the poison. It showed traces of poison, but it was ruled out that it contained the poison that struck Navalny. When he drank from that bottle, he already was poisoned. And that is nerve agent you cannot buy just in a pharmacy.

Live with it, almost everybody is convinced that your state'S political leadership is behind this attack, like behind so many others conducted in this way, too. These endless Russian deflections just do not catch on. Althoigh they are tiresome and repetitive, what probably is their main purpose.

Dmitry Markov · 09-04-20, 08:40 AM

Skybird, my job is to sell enough digital signage equipment to fulfill the KPI for this quarter :-) Not to cleanwash anybody - that's another department's job.
What exactly was/is in the bottle doesn't matter - what does matter is the proof of the fact of border crossing of this bottle which could be registered by both German and Russian sides - only when the fact of border crossing is registered by both sides it could be possible to talk about the said bottle as of material evidence. Until then it's just another media-plays when either side can declare anything and everyone stays with what they are initially persuaded in. Neither Russia can prove the bottle is bought on German territory and Navalny's relatives or US agents, or German police smeared it with Novichok, nor Navalny's relatives can prove that bottle was taken from Russia. Standoff :-)

Skybird · 09-04-20, 08:51 AM

Oh, official Russian authority papers. That impresses! If they say it was so, then it must have been so.

Even more since they have not and never had anything to hide...

Skybird · 09-04-20, 08:59 AM

Der Tagesspiegel:

In the case of the poisoned Russian Kremlin critic Alexej Navalny, the Russian judiciary has requested legal assistance from the German authorities. This was sent to the Berlin State Justice Administration on Friday, as announced on Twitter. The responsibility of Berlin results from the fact that Navalny is being treated in a Berlin hospital.

A German phrase: cheek wins!

Skybird · 09-04-20, 01:43 PM

from Die Welt:

Empty Threats

"
George F. Kennan, the father of containment policy vis-à-vis the Soviet Union, warned the West decades ago that foreign policy must not be “the grimacing of public opinion” - especially not with regard to Russia. Moscow has a feeling for empty threats, empty phrases and the verbalism of hastiness.

The Kremlin knows how to expose the sounding emptiness as such and to counter it with well thought-out tactics. The West is often not up to it. Europeans have forgotten how to think strategically. And the Americans? Well, they don't think at all at the moment - or only think of themselves.

After the Chancellor took Russia into court more harshly than she ever did before, one could have expected that a policy of small steps would now be followed by cleverly devised penalties. However: So far, the decision was made to cut the face in the mirror of public opinion. NATO called its foreign ministers together. Her general secretary threatened grandmotherly “This will have consequences”, but no one is wondering whether the Western military pact is the right body.

What should NATO do? Threaten with war? Suspend the already asleep NATO-Russia Council? Transfer troops to the Baltic states? Those who show their teeth but cannot bite should never forget that there is a gap behind them. NATO even revealed this at the end of its session when it sternly stated that Russia had to answer serious questions. Vladimir Putin will shiver with fear.

The art of crisis diplomacy is based on always viewing threats as potential possibilities and leaving the enemy in the dark as to the extent of what is threatening him. If you leave out the big hammer, NATO has absolutely no way of making this kind of threat. So the conflict must be carried out exclusively in the field of politics.

The EU is written on it. As an economic power, it has the appropriate tools. Can she talk to Putin? A person who is used to commanding finds it difficult to learn how to negotiate, because negotiating means recognizing your limited power. So it is only possible with solid warnings. Should Russia block itself, it must expect the end of Nord Stream 2. But it is hard to believe that the federal government will agree to it. In contrast to her Sunday speeches about Europe, she is as selfish on this issue with European partners as Trump is with his allies. So all that remains is cutting the face.
"
https://www.welt.de/debatte/kommenta...Drohungen.html

Catfish · 09-04-20, 02:10 PM

Germany will threaten Russia with a forever debate. Be afraid, be very afraid.

mapuc · 09-04-20, 02:21 PM

I have so to say retired and this is because:

1. Was he(keep on forgetting his name) poisoned or not
2. Was it this nasty military chemical stuff or not ?
3. Was it Putin who gave the order or not ?

Since I can't get a clean answer on most of these I stay neutral.

Markus

Skybird · 09-04-20, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc

I have so to say retired and this is because:

1. Was he(keep on forgetting his name) poisoned or not
2. Was it this nasty military chemical stuff or not ?
3. Was it Putin who gave the order or not ?

Since I can't get a clean answer on most of these I stay neutral.

Markus

1. Nawalny. Yes.
2. Novichok. Yes.
3. The Russian state at top level. If Putin did not comamnd it, it certainly has nevertheless not been done against his will or without him knowing it.

How many poison attacks on critics and opposition leaders there have been in the past 15 years? I listed some of them some pages earlier. Quite some. Not even counting the extensive Russian cyber attack on the German Bundestag and the govenrment some years ago which led to a compöete shut down and repacement of the computer infratructure, and the murdering in Berlin Tiergarten Park last year.

Do not be "neutral". You become guilty yourself is staying neutral on this. You react exactly as the Russians calculate people like your to react: reasonable and thus: neutral. Because they do not admit it, don't hand over evidence, don't prove themselves beign guilty. Accuse the other of what they are being accused of. Total deflection. Their tactic is: strike, and then raise doubts, deflect, deny, so that people like you stay "neutral", and in doubt, becaysue you want to be "reaosnable". They hold you by your nose and lead you around in circles!

About the pipeline Nord Stream 2, there cna be no doubt that due to Germany deletign nculear energy and coal energy simulkatenbously, gas and energy demand will raise in the coming years, and all across Europe and the world, btw, not just in Germany. There will be rising gas import from Ruzssia anyway, Nord Strema 2 beign sue dor not. There are revialing pipelinbe projects, and each is suppported by other natiosnw ith toher economic itnerests. Turkey. Israel , Cyprus. Greece. Italy. Ukraine. Poland. All want the pipeline to be theirs so that they cna have a grab on it, can milk coins from it, and can threaten the eU in n egotiations with shrotages if they do nto get what they want. Nord Stream 2 is algical reaciton to that, the German reaosnign behind it is fully rational: bypassing uncertain candidates like the Ukraine, Poland, Turkey, and have a transit for gas directly from Russia to the distribution network starting in a German port, no in-between intermediates who raise the costs, or could potentially blackmail the eU if they do not get more moenya form the eU. More debt collectivization. More of whatever theywant. And the US want a.) to sell their own overpriced and inferior-quality gas, want b.) no rivalry and at best a so strong stand on the European energy market that they could blackmail the EU, and they want c.) to cut another source of income for Russia be spoiling a business deal for them. Mind you, the US is sanctionizing Russia already now.

I never lived in the illusion that Russia is Germany'S friend or that Germany is having a special relation to Russia. I oinly said, becaue it is a fact, that Russia has always hoinorued economic and trade treaties with us, even at the height of the cold war. It did so because it was a chance for them to increase tensions between Germany and the US that way. Beside this, Russia is attacking us on multiple secret and not so secret fronts day in, day out. So, the arrangement between us and them is such that the net benefits currently still outweighs the disadvantages. States have no friends. States have interests.

Unfortunately, the US does like the Russians as well. And maybe they are even more effective in attacking us and spying on us than the Russians. Economically they are in a better psoition to do so, since they can claim the whole German IT infrastrtxcure thewir playgorund - they build and created it, all software beign use don it, is theirs - they created that as well. The US is in the comfortable seat of beign able to act in the same way löikme they accuse Huawei it would act if only one lets them.

There are reasons why I do not prefer any of the three - Russia, China or the US - to the two others anymore. They are all the same.

Jimbuna · 09-05-20, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc

I have so to say retired and this is because:

1. Was he(keep on forgetting his name) poisoned or not
2. Was it this nasty military chemical stuff or not ?
3. Was it Putin who gave the order or not ?

Since I can't get a clean answer on most of these I stay neutral.

Markus

As I previously stated in #139

"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."

Onkel Neal · 12-21-20, 02:12 PM

Can't get better proof than this from Putin's murder squad itself.

Catfish · 12-21-20, 03:50 PM

Good there is evidence now, but did anyone really have a doubt?

Two days ago:
"Putin said recent reports that Russian state security agents had poisoned Navalny were part of a US intelligence plot to discredit him."

"Putin: If Russia poisoned Navalny he'd be dead"
https://www.dw.com/en/putin-if-russi...ead/a-55975433

ikalugin · 12-21-20, 04:23 PM

The *evidence* is of, ehem, varying quality.

https://tarkhil.medium.com/два-слова...;-d0fb5db37473
A good longread (in Russian) on the general phosphoorganic poison topic.

That said - the recent events do rise valid questions about things such as illegal personal data markets, so maybe some good would come out of them.

09-04-20, 05:46 AM	#166
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,496 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	You want to imply that Navalny was ppoisoned by the US to give Putin a bad name (as if he does not already have that) and to bring Germany to giving up Nord Stream 2? I thought of that already. But that I did not voice it, I think tells clear enough what I think of that scenario currently: unlikely. Russia'S top has a long and established record of poisoning its opponents with "signature poisons" and then deny any responsibililty, spread doubt, deflect. Possible maybe that this time somebody in command overestmated the chances to get away with it like the many times before: some diplomatic I-go-you-go, and thats it. And after the many weak replies from Europeans in the past, I can even understand that. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

09-04-20, 06:16 AM	#167
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,496 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	German investigators say that a bottle belonging to Navalny showed signs of the poison, but did nto contain it originally. the bottle was collected by relatives of Navalny and brought to Germany together with Navalny. This means that Navalny already was poisoned when he drank from that bottle. Thus he was not poisoned afterwards and outside Russia, in Germany, but in Russia for sure. Russian official try to rasie doubts on that from beginning on, implying that the germans had poisoned him once Navalny was in Germany. What Russian bull####. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

09-04-20, 08:04 AM	#168
Dmitry Markov Officer Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Moscow, Russian Federation Posts: 236 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Ha ha ha :-) Navalny relatives brought some bottle into Germany and Germany tells it contains poison That's what I call an indisputable proof )) Confirmed by truly unbiased source... They have an official declaration that they've brought this bottle from Russia? Or they can somehow indisputably prove how exactly they've managed to bring this bottle to Germany after all investigative actions from SK in Russia ( or didn't bought it in German territory ;-) )? Very weak That is again a word against a word. Look cui prodest - the only side that gains from that is US, not Russia and not Germany. Gazprom, Putin and whole our people won't gain nothing from stopping the North Stream. To be honest I personally care for North Stream much more than state of Navalny's health ( hope he gets well, of course) or who and why could wish him to not be well. North Stream means our quality of life - food, water, education, medicine etc, Navalny doesn't mean nothing - since he cannot provide neither education, nor food, medicine, nor water, nor heating. __________________ Большому кораблю - большая торпеда!

09-04-20, 08:12 AM	#169
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,496 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Obviously your job is to cleanwash the Russian top, the by far main suspect, no matter what, and in best Trump fashion. Or Putin fashion. Or whomever showed up first with this "style". And the bottle did not contain the poison. It showed traces of poison, but it was ruled out that it contained the poison that struck Navalny. When he drank from that bottle, he already was poisoned. And that is nerve agent you cannot buy just in a pharmacy. Live with it, almost everybody is convinced that your state'S political leadership is behind this attack, like behind so many others conducted in this way, too. These endless Russian deflections just do not catch on. Althoigh they are tiresome and repetitive, what probably is their main purpose. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

09-04-20, 08:40 AM	#170
Dmitry Markov Officer Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Moscow, Russian Federation Posts: 236 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Skybird, my job is to sell enough digital signage equipment to fulfill the KPI for this quarter :-) Not to cleanwash anybody - that's another department's job. What exactly was/is in the bottle doesn't matter - what does matter is the proof of the fact of border crossing of this bottle which could be registered by both German and Russian sides - only when the fact of border crossing is registered by both sides it could be possible to talk about the said bottle as of material evidence. Until then it's just another media-plays when either side can declare anything and everyone stays with what they are initially persuaded in. Neither Russia can prove the bottle is bought on German territory and Navalny's relatives or US agents, or German police smeared it with Novichok, nor Navalny's relatives can prove that bottle was taken from Russia. Standoff :-) __________________ Большому кораблю - большая торпеда!

09-04-20, 08:51 AM	#171
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,496 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Oh, official Russian authority papers. That impresses! If they say it was so, then it must have been so. Even more since they have not and never had anything to hide... __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

09-04-20, 08:59 AM	#172
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,496 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Der Tagesspiegel: In the case of the poisoned Russian Kremlin critic Alexej Navalny, the Russian judiciary has requested legal assistance from the German authorities. This was sent to the Berlin State Justice Administration on Friday, as announced on Twitter. The responsibility of Berlin results from the fact that Navalny is being treated in a Berlin hospital. A German phrase: cheek wins! __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

09-04-20, 01:43 PM	#173
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,496 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	from Die Welt: Empty Threats " George F. Kennan, the father of containment policy vis-à-vis the Soviet Union, warned the West decades ago that foreign policy must not be “the grimacing of public opinion” - especially not with regard to Russia. Moscow has a feeling for empty threats, empty phrases and the verbalism of hastiness. The Kremlin knows how to expose the sounding emptiness as such and to counter it with well thought-out tactics. The West is often not up to it. Europeans have forgotten how to think strategically. And the Americans? Well, they don't think at all at the moment - or only think of themselves. After the Chancellor took Russia into court more harshly than she ever did before, one could have expected that a policy of small steps would now be followed by cleverly devised penalties. However: So far, the decision was made to cut the face in the mirror of public opinion. NATO called its foreign ministers together. Her general secretary threatened grandmotherly “This will have consequences”, but no one is wondering whether the Western military pact is the right body. What should NATO do? Threaten with war? Suspend the already asleep NATO-Russia Council? Transfer troops to the Baltic states? Those who show their teeth but cannot bite should never forget that there is a gap behind them. NATO even revealed this at the end of its session when it sternly stated that Russia had to answer serious questions. Vladimir Putin will shiver with fear. The art of crisis diplomacy is based on always viewing threats as potential possibilities and leaving the enemy in the dark as to the extent of what is threatening him. If you leave out the big hammer, NATO has absolutely no way of making this kind of threat. So the conflict must be carried out exclusively in the field of politics. The EU is written on it. As an economic power, it has the appropriate tools. Can she talk to Putin? A person who is used to commanding finds it difficult to learn how to negotiate, because negotiating means recognizing your limited power. So it is only possible with solid warnings. Should Russia block itself, it must expect the end of Nord Stream 2. But it is hard to believe that the federal government will agree to it. In contrast to her Sunday speeches about Europe, she is as selfish on this issue with European partners as Trump is with his allies. So all that remains is cutting the face. " https://www.welt.de/debatte/kommenta...Drohungen.html __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

09-04-20, 02:10 PM	#174
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 16,897 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Germany will threaten Russia with a forever debate. Be afraid, be very afraid. __________________ >^..^<*)))>{ All generalizations are wrong.

09-04-20, 02:21 PM	#175
mapuc Fleet Admiral Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 17,885 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	I have so to say retired and this is because: 1. Was he(keep on forgetting his name) poisoned or not 2. Was it this nasty military chemical stuff or not ? 3. Was it Putin who gave the order or not ? Since I can't get a clean answer on most of these I stay neutral. Markus

12-21-20, 02:12 PM	#178
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,284 Downloads: 534 Uploads: 224	Can't get better proof than this from Putin's murder squad itself.

12-21-20, 03:50 PM	#179
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 16,897 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Good there is evidence now, but did anyone really have a doubt? Two days ago: "Putin said recent reports that Russian state security agents had poisoned Navalny were part of a US intelligence plot to discredit him." "Putin: If Russia poisoned Navalny he'd be dead" https://www.dw.com/en/putin-if-russi...ead/a-55975433 __________________ >^..^<*)))>{ All generalizations are wrong.

12-21-20, 04:23 PM	#180
ikalugin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 3,212 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	The evidence is of, ehem, varying quality. https://tarkhil.medium.com/два-слова...;-d0fb5db37473 A good longread (in Russian) on the general phosphoorganic poison topic. That said - the recent events do rise valid questions about things such as illegal personal data markets, so maybe some good would come out of them. __________________ Grumpy as always.