Historical correctness

mapuc · 05-17-20, 02:31 PM

In my childhood I loved to watch Hollywood made action movies with actors like Errol Flynn, Charlton Heston a.s.o

Lets start with a classic movie with Charlton in which he is portrait a Gladiator.

In this movie you see some scenes where the emperor turn his thumb down.

Some years back I saw on my history channel an historian telling us that this thumb down was incorrect.

He(The Emperor)was pointing his thumb to his throat which indicate-cute his throat(eliminate him)

.........

Until earlier today, when I saw about half an hour of Roman empire. Here an Historian gave us an another version.

He said the emperor turned his whole hand down with the thumb in same direction
(hard to describe how this historian held his hand, when showing it)

This made me wonder....

What is the historical correctness when it comes to this famous thumbs up/down ?

Markus

Jeff-Groves · 05-17-20, 02:44 PM

I get enough head aches over being Politically Correct!
Now you want me to be all migraine over History Correct?

You SIR are a sadist!

mapuc · 05-17-20, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

I get enough head aches over being Politically Correct!
Now you want me to be all migraine over History Correct?

You SIR are a sadist!

I have been thinking and came to the conclusion...we may never know for sure.

Just curious to know which part is historical correct

Markus

Skybird · 05-17-20, 03:47 PM

Some historians indeed think that the thumb up symbolized the blank sword and meant "kill him!", where as "let him live!" was signalled by putting the thumb of the right hand into the covering fist of the left hand. It is claimed that some passages in historic texts of time witnesses from that era also indicate that. The modern way of seeing it exactly the other way around (thumbs down for death, thumbs upo for live) was installed by some famous painting of an arena scene by some French painter (one that also inspired Ridley Scott for his movie). Also, in mediterranean countries the thumbs up, even more the Tramper's thumb up, can get you into troubles, since it means an invitation for sex, the Tramper's signal in some parts like Turkey even means homosexual sex. I once thumb-signalled an okay to our team while being in Algeria and lcoals were around, and the scene got hot quite quickly, because I did not know it, some of the men got very angry. Another member of our team calmed down the situation with the locals (he spoke the language), and explained it to me afterwards.

I tend to think that indeed the modern interpretation of thumps up for saving the live of a gladiator is wrong.

Quite some gestures that have a certain meaning for us in the West, can mean somethign very different in outher places and cultures. I learned my lesson on that day.

Jeff-Groves · 05-17-20, 04:00 PM

I don't buy into any of what the 'Experts' say about the past.

You have to remember.
To stay on top of the Expert Game?
You have to have everyone behind your theories.

It's nothing more then a popularity game.

mapuc · 05-17-20, 04:07 PM

Skybird wrote about gestus one of our non-verbal language and it is indeed different how this is used around the world.

It made me wonder-was thumb down the same as...let him live.

The Thumb thing was new to me.
Have always thought thumbs up = Everything is OK wherever you are in the world.

Markus

Col7777 · 05-17-20, 05:36 PM

I like a bit of history but many a time you watch a documentary and the historian tells of a conversation between a King to a nobleman quoting the words.
How does anybody know if it wasn't written down from all those years ago?

If you ever play Chinese whispers you know how it is easy to get the facts wrong.
Do it with six people, one passes on a message to the next person, then that person passes it on to the next and so on, by the time it is told to the sixth person the message is different, so how can we believe stuff told to someone that passes it on from hundreds of years ago.

Col.

Jeff-Groves · 05-17-20, 05:58 PM

Now I know I have a head ache!
Before I wasn't quite certain.

Platapus · 05-18-20, 05:22 AM

I, too, have read that the thumbs down indicated that the sword was to be plunged into the ground, effectively ending the event. The thumbs up was actually a thumbs toward the throat meaning that the sword was to be used to kill the opponent, perhaps by plunging it into the throat

Not sure we can ever find out what the original meanings were, or even if there was a single meaning for these gestures.

Jimbuna · 05-18-20, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

Now I know I have a head ache!
Before I wasn't quite certain.

05-17-20, 02:31 PM	#1
mapuc Fleet Admiral Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 17,877 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	Historical correctness In my childhood I loved to watch Hollywood made action movies with actors like Errol Flynn, Charlton Heston a.s.o Lets start with a classic movie with Charlton in which he is portrait a Gladiator. In this movie you see some scenes where the emperor turn his thumb down. Some years back I saw on my history channel an historian telling us that this thumb down was incorrect. He(The Emperor)was pointing his thumb to his throat which indicate-cute his throat(eliminate him) ......... Until earlier today, when I saw about half an hour of Roman empire. Here an Historian gave us an another version. He said the emperor turned his whole hand down with the thumb in same direction (hard to describe how this historian held his hand, when showing it) This made me wonder.... What is the historical correctness when it comes to this famous thumbs up/down ? Markus

05-17-20, 02:44 PM	#2
Jeff-Groves Village Idiot Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 5,319 Downloads: 130 Uploads: 0	I get enough head aches over being Politically Correct! Now you want me to be all migraine over History Correct? You SIR are a sadist! __________________ I don't do Stupid. So don't ask.

05-17-20, 03:47 PM	#4
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,493 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Some historians indeed think that the thumb up symbolized the blank sword and meant "kill him!", where as "let him live!" was signalled by putting the thumb of the right hand into the covering fist of the left hand. It is claimed that some passages in historic texts of time witnesses from that era also indicate that. The modern way of seeing it exactly the other way around (thumbs down for death, thumbs upo for live) was installed by some famous painting of an arena scene by some French painter (one that also inspired Ridley Scott for his movie). Also, in mediterranean countries the thumbs up, even more the Tramper's thumb up, can get you into troubles, since it means an invitation for sex, the Tramper's signal in some parts like Turkey even means homosexual sex. I once thumb-signalled an okay to our team while being in Algeria and lcoals were around, and the scene got hot quite quickly, because I did not know it, some of the men got very angry. Another member of our team calmed down the situation with the locals (he spoke the language), and explained it to me afterwards. I tend to think that indeed the modern interpretation of thumps up for saving the live of a gladiator is wrong. Quite some gestures that have a certain meaning for us in the West, can mean somethign very different in outher places and cultures. I learned my lesson on that day. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

05-17-20, 04:00 PM	#5
Jeff-Groves Village Idiot Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 5,319 Downloads: 130 Uploads: 0	I don't buy into any of what the 'Experts' say about the past. You have to remember. To stay on top of the Expert Game? You have to have everyone behind your theories. It's nothing more then a popularity game. __________________ I don't do Stupid. So don't ask.

05-17-20, 05:36 PM	#7
Col7777 Grey Wolf Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 944 Downloads: 260 Uploads: 0	I like a bit of history but many a time you watch a documentary and the historian tells of a conversation between a King to a nobleman quoting the words. How does anybody know if it wasn't written down from all those years ago? If you ever play Chinese whispers you know how it is easy to get the facts wrong. Do it with six people, one passes on a message to the next person, then that person passes it on to the next and so on, by the time it is told to the sixth person the message is different, so how can we believe stuff told to someone that passes it on from hundreds of years ago. Col. __________________ Silent and Violent

05-17-20, 04:07 PM	#6
mapuc Fleet Admiral Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 17,877 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	Skybird wrote about gestus one of our non-verbal language and it is indeed different how this is used around the world. It made me wonder-was thumb down the same as...let him live. The Thumb thing was new to me. Have always thought thumbs up = Everything is OK wherever you are in the world. Markus

05-17-20, 05:58 PM	#8
Jeff-Groves Village Idiot Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 5,319 Downloads: 130 Uploads: 0	Now I know I have a head ache! Before I wasn't quite certain. __________________ I don't do Stupid. So don't ask.

05-18-20, 05:22 AM	#9
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 18,948 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	I, too, have read that the thumbs down indicated that the sword was to be plunged into the ground, effectively ending the event. The thumbs up was actually a thumbs toward the throat meaning that the sword was to be used to kill the opponent, perhaps by plunging it into the throat Not sure we can ever find out what the original meanings were, or even if there was a single meaning for these gestures. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.