US Politics Thread 2016-2020

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Catfish

@Skybird Regarding visiting the US you should have thought about some eavesdropping agency already ten years ago

Yeah I know, and I did. Which means I probably never seriously considered a US trip anyway. At least the US would just reject entry/visum to me - if at all, that is. They would not jail me away.

Now, if I would ever go back to Turkey or Iran again - now that might mean really deep trouble for me. But honestly said, I do not plan to ever meet those corners of the world again in the rest of my life.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by u crank

Let's ask a simple question. Do you want to know? Does anyone want to know? This man was the Vice President of the USA for eight years. What he did then and what he does now is not some insignificant thing. If he didn't do anything wrong wouldn't you like to know? If he did do something wrong and is running for the Democrat party's nomination for President wouldn't you like to know?

One person's wrong is not somebody else's card blanche to do wrong himself. If you ASmeicnas think you should charge Hillary or Biden, do so - but it is not the president'S joib to tell the justice department how to do its job, nor is it the president'S job to tell other heads of state that they should deliver him the mud he wants to throw it at his most likely rival in the next campaign. Trump already has invited most likely Russian interference in last elections, now he asks Ukraine and China to interfere with the upcoming elections.

This all is about Trump. And about Trump alone. And many defdend him still only for one reason: if they would not, and Trump falls, they would need to admit that they were terribly wrong themsleves, too, and allowed shabbiness hijacking the WH and that they were the ones who paved him the way there. "Mitgefangen, mitgehangen. " Voters are to be held accountable for what and whom they voted for. They share the responsibility for the consequences of their vote.

It amazes me that there is such a lack of curiosity amongst people who want every possible angle of their political opponents investigated but cry like children when the tables are turned. What have they got to hide?

Well, you tell me, you help to deflect any probing of Trump. Treumps deeds are beign done NOW, they are not a thing of ther past, and the damsage they mean can still be prevented. You distraxct by wantign atgention shifting to misdeeds of ther past by soembody else instead. Somebody else who also was not the head of state. Its a quesiton of present priorities. Before I probe a theft in the past, I deal with the bank robbery taking place right now, in the present - and is done by the absolute top leader of the country.


You are distracting an deflecting. And you know it yourself, do you. Its all due to the xtreme camp warfare your poltical lanb dscape has been turned into, and the extreme polarization resulting from it. Its your totem against their totem, its your tribe against their tribe.



Its political hooliganism. And the louder the Bangs, the louder the Cheers.

[u crank]

Originally Posted by Catfish

This is not about left or right. It is about a certain personality and attitude, if described politely. Trump is trying to divert and refocus his whistleblower scandal on Joe Biden.

That's what you say it is about. I say it is about the rule of law. If Trump, Biden or any American breaks the law he should be held accountable. Now it is quite possible that the Bidens did not break the law. Polititians can be corrupt without breaking the law. There is no legal penalty to pay but there certainly should be a political one. If Joe Biden was involved in shady, corrupt dealings that benifitted his son financially do you think he is fit to be the President? Should we just let it go? The person who is ultimately responsible for finding that out is the President.

What do you really think of a man like Trump?

I have stated in this thread in the past that I am not a big fan of Trump. But given the alternative in 2016 I'm not that disappointed that he won. And if it is a contest in 2020 between Trump and Warren I hope he wins again. Trump's personal behavior is lacking but his policies for the most part are standard Republican positions. Bill Clinton had a fairly successful Presidency but he also had oral sex with a much younger woman in the White House who wasn't his wife. And he lied about it. I'm a live and let live kinda guy. I prefer to judge polititians by their policies and accomplishments, not by their behavior. Polititians should be held legally accountable for their behavior if they break the law. They should be held politically responsible for their policies. Everything else is just an excuse for bias.

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

No, an accusation of Trump has nothing to do with Hillary's deeds. Hillary is not responsible for Trump's deeds. Referring to her in a discussion about Trump's misdeeds, is no argument, but an attempt to bypass and distract from the point of a debate on Trump's doings.

You could as well relativise Trump'S misdeeds by referring to John Smith in Charlton City having robbed a store at night and escaped.

Biden, Hillary , who ever, charge them separately if you want. But do not use them to relativise Trump's deeds. For Trump's policy and decision making, Trump is responsible. He is at the top of the heap. The No.1. The formal president, with far reaching authorities that give him more powers than most European state leaders can claim in their constitutional context.

You can believe in Democrat fairy tales if you want to but nothing Trump has actually done is either illegal or wrong and unlike those two he has every right to be angry at the Democrats constant attempts to overturn the 2016. This Ukraine thing is just the latest attack and it will fail along with the others.

[Buddahaid]

So that's why he's hiding it.

[u crank]

Originally Posted by Skybird

One person's wrong is not somebody else's card blanche to do wrong himself. If you ASmeicnas think you should charge Hillary or Biden, do so - but it is not the president'S joib to tell the justice department how to do its job, nor is it the president'S job to tell other heads of state that they should deliver him the mud he wants to throw it at his most likely rival in the next campaign. Trump already has invited most likely Russian interference in last elections, now he asks Ukraine and China to interfere with the upcoming elections.

You didn't answer the question. I'll ask it again. Do you want to know? Something tells me you don't want to know. This man Biden could be the next President. Why wouldn't you want to know?

Trump is being pretty out front about this. He is asking these questions publicly. He could just follow the example of his predecessor and get his intel agencies to start a counterintelligence probe into Biden. Would that make you happy?

[Canonicus]

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

So that's why he's hiding it.

Like his income tax returns which he promised to disclose back during the 2016 campaign?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by August

You can believe in Democrat fairy tales if you want to but nothing Trump has actually done is either illegal or wrong

Says - you.

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Says - you.

Indeed. Prove me wrong.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by August

Indeed. Prove me wrong.

I prove you nothing. You are no valid criterion.

Trump is to be probed. He is not to hinder it. He is not to influence it. His subordinates are not to hinder justice and the work of the constitutional institutions and procedures. Neither they nor him are to hide demanded documents and records. Neither they nor him are to obstruct justice. Obstruction of justice is a punishable crime -. even for a formal president.

If then said justice - left to be neutral and objective - finds the charges against him to be fraudulent and/or wrong, then his innocence is proven and you have a claim to make for his behaviour not being illegal or wrong. And only then. Until then you only spread doubt and conspiration theory and delay and distraction and deflection and illusion, while ignoring his sh!tty manners and excremental unspeakable behaviour all day long as if it were somebody else's words, manners and behaviours, not his.

Trump hinders justice. He tries to intimidate and bully witnesses. He wants laws and procedures being bend in his favour. Muller was clear on why he did not charge him. Innocence of the probed subject named Trump was not the reason, he left no doubt on that. And showed by that a quality and class that Trump could not even dream to have, even if the fairy queen would teach him to suddenly appreciate such qualities he never has heard of so far. A psychopathic bigmouth with a deep-rooting paranoia and messianic, megalomaniac selfunderstanding and zero empathy for other living beings, with no sense for self-responsibility, honour, or fairness. Rude in words, vulgar in behaviour, rightous in extremis , and at the same time when being so: revealing how sadly limited he is. A carricature of a human, a laugh of a man, dangerous, unscrupolous, rabid - but ridiculous. A sad being. A joke.

One day he will be unmasked, either by lawyers or by historians. And then fools like you will share his shame. German language knows a word for this kind of blind, uncritical, undistanced, reality-ignoring loyalty, even if being malicously led into the abyss of destruction. We call it Kadavergehorsam. It is the direct opposite to noble, well-deserved loyalty, and no compliment at all.

For now, you will laugh, I know. But you will not be the last one laughing best.

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I prove you nothing. You are no valid criterion.

Trump is to be probed. He is not to hinder it. He is not to influence it. His subordinates are not to hinder justice and the work of the constitutional institutions and procedures. Neither they nor him are to hide demanded documents and records. Neither they nor him are to obstruct justice. Obstruction of justice is a punishable crime -. even for a formal president.

If then said justice - left to be neutral and objective - finds the charges against him to be fraudulent and/or wrong, then his innocence is proven and you have a claim to make for his behaviour not being illegal or wrong. And only then. Until then you only spread doubt and conspiration theory and delay and distraction and deflection and illusion, while ignoring his sh!tty manners and excremental unspeakable behaviour all day long as if it were somebody else's words, manners and behaviours, not his.

Trump hinders justice. He tries to intimidate and bully witnesses. He wants laws and procedures being bend in his favour. Muller was clear on why he did not charge him. Innocence of the probed subject named Trump was not the reason, he left no doubt on that. And showed by that a quality and class that Trump could not even dream to have, even if the fairy queen would teach him to suddenly appreciate such qualities he never has heard of so far. A psychopathic bigmouth with a deep-rooting paranoia and messianic, megalomaniac selfunderstanding and zero empathy for other living beings, with no sense for self-responsibility, honour, or fairness. Rude in words, vulgar in behaviour, rightous in extremis , and at the same time when being so: revealing how sadly limited he is. A carricature of a human, a laugh of a man, dangerous, unscrupolous, rabid - but ridiculous. A sad being. A joke.

One day he will be unmasked, either by lawyers or by historians. And then fools like you will share his shame. German language knows a word for this kind of blind, uncritical, undistanced, reality-ignoring loyalty, even if being malicously led into the abyss of destruction. We call it Kadavergehorsam. It is the direct opposite to noble, well-deserved loyalty, and no compliment at all.

For now, you will laugh, I know. But you will not be the last one laughing best.

Four whole paragraphs and you couldn't mention one single real crime. You basically say "Trumps a big meanie" and fill in your own personal vitriol.



In other words you ain't got nothin'.

[Buddahaid]

And you do? You prove it then.

[MaDef]

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

And you do? You prove it then.

Innocent until proven guilty.

It will take more than hearsay and innuendo to get a conviction.

[Dowly]

Ukraine agency says allegations against Burisma cover period before Biden joined

A Ukrainian investigation of gas company Burisma is focused solely on activity that took place before Hunter Biden, son of former U.S. Vice President Joe Biden, was hired to sit on its board, Ukraine’s anti-corruption investigation agency said.
[..]
“Changes to the board of Burisma Limited, which are currently the object of international attention, took place only in May 2014, and therefore are not and never were the subject of (the anti-corruption bureau’s) investigation,” the bureau’s statement said.

No reason to probe Bidens: former Ukraine prosecutor

Speaking to BBC Kiev correspondent Jonah Fisher, Mr Lutsenko - who succeeded Mr Shokin and stood down last month - said there was no plan to open the investigation into Burisma, and that any investigation into Hunter Biden would have to start in the US.

"It is the jurisdiction of the US," he said, adding that any "possible embezzlement" at Burisma "happened two or three years before Hunter Biden became a member of the board".

[Skybird]

A formal president about whom Muller indicated he should undergo impeachment but that it were not his formal responsibility and authority to do so, but representatives' duty. A formal president who implies that whistkleblowers he does not like should be killed, and who actively tries to block personnel in critical offices that could pose a threat of demasking him. Who calls at least on two foreign states to interfere with upcomign natioanl elections in the US, doing it once even in puiblic. A formal president who talks rubbish and contradicts himself, who offends people as he pleases, and frnakly illustrates his paranoia and conpsiration theories at many opportunities.

But August says that he did nothing wrong.



Trump does wrong, all the time. Under everybody's eyes. You have no argument, August, what you have is called agitation. And denial of reality.


Impeachment will most likely falter in the senate, since Trump profiteers have the majority there, but no spine or honesty. This does not mean Trump did not wrong and is innocent. It only documents the limits of justice possible within the constitutional order, and shows that the crisis is a constitutional system crisis - Trump is not the cause for it, but just the latest symptom. But the symptom that in the present, right now, is doing all the damage.

The American political system is disenchanted now at the latest. actually it happened already earlier, else Trump would not have become possible.