Mum appeals for US suspect's return

[Jimbuna]

I apologise for the wall of text but for those who care to read it I am mindful that the whole article should be posted to assist in a full understanding.

I'm not about annoying our American members on here but this is potentially very damaging to our countries so called 'special' relationship and will do little other than remind the western world that as Trump repeats so often 'AMERICA FIRST'

It is being alleged the female driver had simply driven out of the base and travelled along the american side of the road (right) causing a head-on collision with the lad on the bike.

I wonder if this will be brought to Trumps attention and I can't help but remind him the UK is not NK and both our countries espouse to adhere to justice and fairness so hopefully common sense and fairness to the victims family will be shown.

The mother of a teenager killed in a car crash involving the wife of a US diplomat has urged her "as a mum" to return to the UK for questioning.

Harry Dunn, 19, died when his motorbike collided with a car near RAF Croughton in Northamptonshire on 27 August.

The diplomat's wife, who has diplomatic immunity, left the UK despite telling police that she had no plans to.

Mr Dunn's mother, Charlotte Charles, told the BBC the family had been left "utterly devastated" by his death.

Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab said he has urged the US embassy to reconsider after the State Department said that diplomatic immunity is "rarely waived".

"I have called the US ambassador to express the UK's disappointment with their decision," he said.

Mrs Charles told the BBC's PM programme: "We're really hoping to try to get her back; from me, as a mum, to her, as a mum, you just hope that he [Mr Raab] can try to get through to her.

"We don't wish her any ill harm, but we don't understand how she can just get on a plane and leave our family just utterly devastated.

"If we don't get any luck over here, then we will go over there."

Under the 1961 Vienna Convention, diplomats and their family members are immune from prosecution in their host country, so long as they are not nationals of that country.

However, their immunity can be waived by the state that has sent them - in this case, the US.

There are more than 22,500 people in the UK who hold diplomatic immunity and most do not break the law.

But if a diplomat is guilty of an egregious breach, there are some things that a host country can do.

In a written Parliamentary answer in October 2017, then Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson said: "The FCO does not tolerate foreign diplomats breaking the law.

"When instances of alleged criminal conduct are brought to our attention by the police, we ask the relevant foreign government to waive diplomatic immunity where appropriate.

"For the most serious offences, and when a relevant waiver has not been granted, we seek the immediate withdrawal of the diplomat."

The problem here is that the US do not appear to have granted a waiver for this particular diplomatic spouse.

Instead, they have removed her from the UK before the British government could threaten to remove her itself if she did not submit to questioning.

As such, the US appears to have calculated that protecting the woman from identification, questioning and possible prosecution was more important than the potential risk to UK-US relations.

This is further evidence the adjective "special" should rarely be used to describe the alliance between both countries.

Supt Sarah Johnson said that the suspect "engaged fully" following the incident near RAF Croughton, a US Air Force communications station, and that she "had previously confirmed... that she had no plans to leave the country in the near future".

"The force is now exploring all opportunities through diplomatic channels to ensure that the investigation continues to progress," she said.

The US Embassy in London confirmed the diplomat's family had left the UK, but it could not confirm the identity of the people involved in the incident "due to security and privacy considerations".

The US State Department said it was in "close consultation" with British officials, but could not comment on "private diplomatic conversation" with the British government.

"We express our deepest sympathies and offer condolences to the family of the deceased in the tragic August 27 traffic accident involving a vehicle driven by the spouse of a U.S. diplomat assigned to the United Kingdom," a spokesperson said.

"Any questions regarding a waiver of immunity with regard to our diplomats and their family members overseas in a case like this receive intense attention at senior levels and are considered carefully given the global impact such decisions carry; immunity is rarely waived."

Andrea Leadsom MP, Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, tweeted that she had met Mr Dunn's family, who she described as "heartbroken". https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...shire-49945461

[JU_88]

A sad state of affairs, hopefully more consideration will be given to the victims family.
I cant say i ever understood this diplomatic immunity gag. I mean - I can understand that diplomats need to be protected from becoming political prisoners in some sketchy situations when those two nations relationship has soured.
But i don't see why they need to be so exempt from so much of the the host countries law.
But then thats just view I cast without any real knowledge on the subject.

[Skybird]

Diplomatic immunity should include diplomats not needing to give witness confessions beforee the hosts court in national law enforcement cases, should be imune to getting arrested and interviewed about their own nations internal affairs, means and carriers of data and messages between the diplomat and his government must be included in immunity. All this is okay and necessary, but obvious offending of the hosting nations laws, speeding in the traffic and causing accidents (BIG problem in many capitols! Foreign staff often thinks the streets are their personal racetracks and parking lots), criminal charges like rape and so on - these things should not be falling under diplomatic immuniy. That they get usually covered by these as well I can only explain by the risk that foreign diplomats get interrogated and pressed under charges of criminal law - and the opportunity then beign exploited to also interrogate them on own internal political stuff that should be covered by immunity.

Maybe it would be simler if one would consider more carefull with whom one forms ties and whom one lets gain diplomatic status in one's own capitol. In other words: be more chosey in accepting your guests. Its not as if these days envoys and ambassadors in place are really necessary. in case of wanted personal contact, on could arrnage a meeting between representatives in a third country, and silently and unnoticed form the public. A day's trip, and you are done.


Finally, I have a principle issue with the concept of maintaining a strong own security force in another country. The protection of a foreign ambassador is in the hosts own best interest, and it shoukld be the host caring for it, and doing so alone. ending your envoy with a strong presence of body guards, marines and so forth, in princ9ple is no dipllatic mission, but an invasion. If the sendign nation thinks they cannot count on the security of the nation they want to send somebody to, then maybe they just should not send somebody. This way, the reputation of s hosting nation and its credibility in guaranteeing diplloatic protection, is in hands of the hosting nation.


Most of it is just höfisches Gehabe: courtly, affected behaviour. To me, it just is stage thunder and mumbojumbo. As the peasant would even care for what foreign ambassadors and envoys are residing in their own capitol. Like film stars celebrate themselves when rewardingf ilm prizes, so does the creme de la creme of political high life. Maybe I am too Vulcan for this kind of stuff, but it means nothign to me. Poltical decisions should not be formed on grounds of someboy'S elses smile or polsiuhed manners, but becasue of facts, content, data, messages's core information. The bringer of the message is irrelevant.

Envoys and ambassadors, representatives of foreign nations should know that they are being held liable for their behaviour and acts. Then they can alter their behaviour accordingly so not to collide with local laws and not causing any drama by their own impertinence.


The fleeing mother told the police she would not leave, but did. I am strongly biased against her now. Immunity should not cover this incident.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Skybird

The fleeing mother told the police she would not leave, but did. I am strongly biased against her now. Immunity should not cover this incident.

Agreed

[Platapus]

The US, or any issuing country can remove any immunity from any diplomat at any time. Normally this is done only for the most egregious and deliberate crimes.



If this woman had stayed in the country and brought to trial, what would be the most likely out come? What penalties are usually levied on UK tourists who would be involved in this sort of accident?



While the UK can PNG the Ambassador, that's a pretty serious diplomatic step. Even if the Ambassador remains in that position, the effects of this incident will severely affect his ability to perform his duties. A lot of diplomacy is done at the personal relationship level.


It will depend on exactly how much the UK cares about this incident. They can make a big deal about it or just sound like they are making a big deal about it.


Unfortunately, the US keeps confidential most information on foreign diplomats breaking US laws so it is difficult to determine that the past procedures are in these cases.



One option is that the US Ambassador to the UK may end up being recalled and replaced. The conduct of the Ambassador's wife may affect the future acceptance of the Ambassador's credentials.



However, it is not uncommon for the diplomatic relationships to overshadow the death of one individual. Shouldn't happen, but I wager it does.



How much is the UK willing to risk in its relationships with the US over this?

[Jimbuna]

I see it as, what price is a life?

[Skybird]

You volunteer to be guest in a foreign country - you play by its rules, and if not you are to be held accountable for the consequences. Thats simple, Platapus. This traffic accident was no state affair, it was a traffic accident - the American diplomatic side made it a state affair by evading the laws regulating such traffic accidents and consequences in Britain.


Its not as if she is under thread ti be skinned alive. But she ist subject to british laws in this incident, no doubt. Politics and state affairs have nothing to do with it, its a traffic accident, and she has to accept her role in it. A human person is dead. A family shattered.


British law knows rules and regulatons how to handle such accidents and exmainations. She should not enjoy immunty from having to undergo these.


The laws of the hosting nation count. If you do not like them, or are not ready to accept that - dont go there.

[Bilge_Rat]

it is an unfortunate situation, but no, I don't see the U.S. waiving diplomatic immunity over a traffic accident.

Diplomatic immunity is a fundamental pricinciple and exists so that a foreign country does not detain diplomats on bogus charges just to put pressure on the Diplomat's home country. Not saying the UK would do it, but once you establish a precedent, other countries will use it in the future.

When I lived in Ottawa, the City government was always complaining about diplomatic vehicles (which were easy to identify because their cars all had red license plates), since they routinely ignored parking and traffic rules, ignoring all traffic tickets and often causing traffic jams or even accidents. The only recourse when a diplomat was really abusing the system was for the External Affairs department to complain to their host country and have them recalled.

[Platapus]

I think the issue is that this is not just a traffic accident, it was the killing of someone



Some other sources are claiming that this individual may not actually have diplomatic immunity.



Something like this should be easy to determine. Diplomatic Immunity is like being pregnant. Either you have or you don't have Diplomatic Immunity depending on the credentials.

[Jimbuna]

A woman at the centre of a row over diplomatic immunity will not return to the UK, according to briefing notes held by US President Donald Trump.

Anne Sacoolas is suspected of being involved in a car crash that killed British motorcyclist Harry Dunn, who died in Northamptonshire on 27 August.

Mrs Sacoolas later left the UK to return home to the US, after telling local police she had no such plans.

The note was photographed as Mr Trump addressed reporters at the White House.

It reads: "(If raised) Note, as Secretary Pompeo told Foreign Secretary Raab, that the spouse of the US government employee will not return to the United Kingdom."

Mr Dunn's mother Charlotte Charles said the US's apparent approach was "beyond any realm of human thinking".

Speaking to Sky News about the photograph of the notes, Mrs Charles said: "I'm just disgusted.

"I don't see the point in Boris Johnson talking to President Trump, or President Trump even taking a call from Boris Johnson.

"If he'd already made his decision that if it were to be asked and if it were to be raised, the answer was already going to be no."

Downing Street confirmed Mr Johnson had urged the US president to reconsider the decision to grant immunity to Mrs Sacoolas.

At the press briefing, Mr Trump called Mr Dunn's death a "terrible accident" and confirmed his administration would seek to speak to Mrs Sacoolas.

Police have said CCTV of the crash in which the teenager died shows a Volvo travelling on the wrong side of the road.

Speaking at the press briefing on Wednesday evening - after his conversation with the prime minister - Mr Trump said: "The woman was driving on the wrong side of the road, and that can happen.

"You know, those are the opposite roads, that happens. I won't say it ever happened to me, but it did.

"So a young man was killed, the person that was driving the automobile has diplomatic immunity, we're going to speak to her very shortly and see if we can do something where they meet."

The crash in which Mr Dunn died happened close to RAF Croughton, a US Air Force communications station, where Mrs Sacoolas's husband Jonathan worked.

Northamptonshire Police Chief Constable Nick Adderley said, "based on CCTV evidence", officers knew "a vehicle alighted from the RAF base at Croughton" and was "on the wrong side of the road".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...shire-49995867

Looks to me like talk is cheap and hardly surprising when you take into consideration how much the POTUS has been spouting over recent years

[eddie]

I hope her conscience is killing her right now, but with her leaving the country the way she did, she doesn't have a conscience. But you know what they say about Karma, it can come around and pay a visit to her too, wish I could be there when it happens.

[Jimbuna]

You and me both matey.