Realism- and gameplay-related hardcode fixes for SH3.EXE

[LGN1]

Originally Posted by h.sie

WITHOUT SDK!

(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

Are you looking for a new challenge ?

(Sorry, I couldn't resist either.)

[reaper7]

Yes well done Guys, its a wonderful achievement
Sh3 is reaching new levels - there's load of life left in the old girl yet

I've really enjoyed trying out the wolfpack mission, gives new tactics to the game-play element of the sim.
I've encountered no issues to the use of this addon to the sim as of yet (using Manos MEP 20km environment).

[h.sie]

I apologize for my embarrassing comment above, but I must admit that I am really satisfied and I feel now, that the time has come to start my first serious career. I really hope that I like Uboat simulations, since otherwise my time would have been wasted (from my point of view).

Thanks to all testers for your comments!!!

@LGN1: No new ideas, please!! . The next version will be a beta, but that will take some time, since I have to re-implement and re-arrange all my fixes for V16. Code became too complex, confusing and spaghetti....

@Makman: I don't know much about the sonar contact lines at 0 knots. Even Sergs AI-Subs have them. But I didn't try to remove them, since a sound source could be useful to attract escorts.

@reaper: Thanks for your patience and the video. After BDU once informs, that wolfpack has assembled, no further contact reports are necessary. I will change the messages accordingly to make this clear. If you continue sending, BDU will order "Full freedom of manoeuvre granted", but risk rises of being detected.

@Stiebler: Thanks very much. Glad you like it. I will change the messages accordingly to prevent from misunderstanding. I think, with some sensor adjustments and/or or some experience and patience of the player, wolfpack attacks will be possible even in the career. It was surely hard in '42, so it should be for the player. You simply have to add the "WolfSubs" into the Campaign.scr of next NYGM version if you like. They do no harm for those who decide not to use the Wolfpack-Mod.

@ALL TESTERS: When shadowing a convoy for a long time, the most important message is something like "Wolfpack has assembled. Expect attack soon" or similar. Since currently some messages get lost, it is also possible that this important message gets lost and you receive consecutive messages like "Individual attack recommended". Did that happen frequently or only seldom for you?

If I'm informed correctly, radio messages have not been sent directly from BDU to the Uboat because of restricted range of the used radio waves. Instead, the messages have been relayed between some radio stations and even several Uboats acting as relais-stations. Thus, it seems possible for me, that some messages can get lost, but I don't know for sure. I like the little chaos when messages get lost, but if chaos is too big, I could shorten the response time of the BDU so that the chance for lost messages sinks.

So what were your experiences regarding lost messages?

[reaper7]

Originally Posted by h.sie

@reaper: Thanks for your patience and the video. After BDU once informs, that wolfpack has assembled, no further contact reports are necessary. I will change the messages accordingly to make this clear. If you continue sending, BDU will order "Full freedom of manoeuvre granted", but risk rises of being detected.

Ah thats good to know, I kept sending even after receiving that message.

[ETsd4]

Originally Posted by reaper7

Video of my 2nd shadowing of the convoy in single mission.

Thanks for the videos. Interesting. Keep it coming.
Very nice work, h.sie.
The message from BdU "Seems like you are on your own." irritates me a bit. "Attack at your own will. Status of the rest of the wolfpack is unclear." or something like that i would expect more.
And i saw the problems of shadowing a convoy on visual sight over hours and attacking a convoy with others (chaos, unpredictable course changes etc.).

[makman94]

Originally Posted by h.sie

I strongly suggest to play and enjoy the wolfpack feeling, the difficulty of shadowing, the battle --- instead of starting to analyse and re-engineer how the mod works and find its weak points.

@makman: you get a pm as soon as I am at home and find time

I remember you saying (in MEPv3 thread) that knowing about the visible sensor ranges in detail is an immersion killer. same for the wolfpack mod. it won't behave realistically if you look with a microscope on it. but from the perspective of the kaleun (binocular, periscope - if you play realistically) you see a battle, ships burning and sinking, distress flares and escorts leaving the convoy in order to attack the wolfs.

yes H.Sie i have said so(about the sensors) and i believe it ! i didn't 'analyzed' or re-engineered your mod for finding its weak points ! i was just wondering if this could be 'improved' but if we have 'limits' here that is absolutely fine with me . don't ever think that i am judging your FANTASTIC mod and i really.... really like it ! You and LGN1 (and all the rest involved in this) are doing a wonderful work here ,maybe the best ever made for sh3.

Originally Posted by h.sie

........

@Makman: I don't know much about the sonar contact lines at 0 knots. Even Sergs AI-Subs have them. But I didn't try to remove them, since a sound source could be useful to attract escorts.
.........

in fact (although unrealistic) i LIKE these hydro lines even for the stopped 'wolfs' ! why ? becuase ,thanks to these hydrolines, i know where the wolfs are placed (can 'pretent' that wolfpacks had communicate and were awared for their positions each other so it seems logical for me to know their positions on map).
knowing where the 'wolfs' are placed, i can choose my position in order to be me the one that will start the attack and not the wolfpack ! so ,that way ,the final decision of the attack is on user and that is ....ABSOLUTELY perfect !

Originally Posted by reaper7

I applied for longer video times using our site www.u-boot-hahd.com as an organisation that required longer vids. And I got it.
Nice shots of the Wolkpack - never thought to look for them in my following vid .

......

you are a real 'explorer' ,John (better than.... Indiana Jones ! )
for sure,we will make some nice videos-tutorials with this accommodation

[h.sie]

@ETsd4: Thanks. I will rework some of the messages for the next version so that their intention will be more clear.

Regarding shadowing: I don't know how careful you acted while testing, but I think this cannot be done "quick and dirty" at high TC. One has to react on every course change of the escorts in order to maintain the distance and stay undetected. I will play shadowing at TC=1.

Try MEPv3. Makman says, this environment makes shadowing easier.

Writing these lines, I remember the film "Das Boot" where the Kaleun, standing on the bridge, tried to maneuvre his surfaced Uboat through lots of enemy escorts at gibraltar. Every minute he gave new orders e.g. "Rudder 50 starboard, engines slow ahead" for keeping his boat out of visible range of the enemy.

[h.sie]

@Makman: I decided to write in the forum instead via PM:

I know that your intentions were not to point out the weak points of my work. Your intentions are constructive and positive - no doubt.

But my (naive) hope was, that noone discovers these sonar lines. I personally don't like them, because in my opinion the player should not know about the exact position of the AI-subs, and he also should not know, how many AI-Subs there are, and that the AI-Subs don't move after the player has directed them to their final interception position with his course estimations. Our mod uses the players imagination ("other Uboats lurking around here, actively searching for the convoy"), and this imagination could be destroyed.

Thus, I was disappointed as you mentioned the sonar-lines and that the AI-Subs don't move during the attack. But most of the players will surely discover that by themselves - without your help.

So there is no problem at all with your post. Thanks again for your testing and your kind words.

The more knowlege you have about how the mod works, the more disenchanted you'll be.

Very worse for LGN1 and me, because we know every detail. But I think it is possible to *forget* the knowledge how the mod works internally and to create a new imagination of wolfpack action after some time.

The battle itself indeed looks as if there were wolfpack subs lurking around - and that's the most important thing.

Yes, I am at the *limit* with this mod at the moment. More is not possible in my spare free time and with the (still) restricted knowledge about the sh3.exe.

[reaper7]

Originally Posted by makman94

you are a real 'explorer' ,John (better than.... Indiana Jones ! )
for sure,we will make some nice videos-tutorials with this accommodation

Hehe, once I think of something - I'll find a way to do. If it it means having to learn something from scratch.
But yes the youtube unrestricted times will be great for creating tutorials for all aspects of Sh3 - and that is my intention .
I've created a BDU section on our website for tutorials ahope to keep adding to it.

Originally Posted by h.sie

Regarding shadowing: I don't know how careful you acted while testing, but I think this cannot be done "quick and dirty" at high TC. One has to react on every course change of the escorts in order to maintain the distance and stay undetected. I will play shadowing at TC=1.

Try MEPv3. Makman says, this environment makes shadowing easier.

I found using Mepv3 that I had no problem maintaing visual on the convoy at 32TC.
In fact it made things even easier, by keeping the optics in use at a fixed bearing on any ship. Increase TC to 32, the user can slowly increase/decrease own speed to match the target (You can see me doing this in my 2 videos above) as long as the target is traveling in a straight line perpendicular to yourself you will know his speed.

Also you will know if he change course as he will all of a sudden start to lag behind your optics bearing

Originally Posted by h.sie

Thus, I was disappointed as you mentioned the sonar-lines and that the AI-Subs don't move during the attack. But most of the players will surely discover that by themselves - without your help.

I don't think this will take away from the mod at all. For example I missed the action as I thought the bearing lines were the convoys escorts .
And besides I imagine that the wolfpack would have been stationery lying in wait for the convoy to attack - so this recreates that perfectly.

And this is just the start, who knows what tricks we'll uncover down the road

[Hitman]

As for the stationary subs in the wolfpack, I wonder if it would be possible to spawn them with an order to set speed to 7 knots or so (surfaced, less if submerged) so they would move even if in a simple straight line.

As I already suggested, you also could make the model invisible and then the AI would not shoot at it but only drop DCs (They will not shoot with guns if they only have hydrophone contact). And finally, make it dissapear after a while, to simulate the chance of escaping - less in late war.

In all, seeing the hydrophone lines i not that bad, as realistically you could have contact with other uboats, but f you spawn them submerged then I would suggest reducing the noise level a lot, so that both the player rarely contacts them (As in real life) and the scorts have a harder time finding them.

[LGN1]

Originally Posted by Hitman

As for the stationary subs in the wolfpack, I wonder if it would be possible to spawn them with an order to set speed to 7 knots or so (surfaced, less if submerged) so they would move even if in a simple straight line.

I tried this, but it didn't work I think you need waypoints and this makes it much harder.

Regards, LGN1

[Hitman]

I tried this, but it didn't work I think you need waypoints and this makes it much harder.

Regards, LGN1

But same as the uboats can be spawned, can't they be given even a single waypoint as they spawn? If they are spawned in a circle, they all could be told to converge on the circle's centre, meaning the predicted convoy position according to its speed and course as reported by the player. If you spawn the uboats at a various (random) distances, they will sucesively arrive there and start shooting, and if you ensure that once they arrive there or abouts they dissapear, you will be mimmicking quite well the approach phase surfaced at night, shooting and dissapearing (submerging or running away).

[h.sie]

@Hitman: Your ideas are good and nearby. But I must jugde your ideas by my ability to program them!

LGN1 and me discussed hundreds of nearby ideas, and of course we had the same idea as yours. Only problem: The praxis. I currently cannot "beam" waypoints. I also cannot change the AI-Subs course and speed. Only possible: Beaming the AI-Subs. It was the hardest part of all. Hundreds of lines of assembler, and I must admit that I'm not willing to add another hundreds of lines to beam waypoints.

Since it's not even necessary!

Instead of moving the AI-Subs, I gave them a huge gunnery radius of 6000m and eagle-eyes, even in the dark. This fully compensates the fact that they don't move. No need to move into the directon of the convoy, since the convoy moves towards them. The effect is the same:

Boom!

It is sufficient and desired that the convoy comes in gunnery range of only one AI-Sub, since it has the power to sink up to 8 ships (depending of some random numbers). My only AI-tweak was indirect, by making the Subs blind for some random time intervals and let them see for other times, so that it seems the convoy ships are attacked by random.

Did you play it in the meantime? If not, I suggest to try it.

I am at my limit. More than this compromise I cannot offer at the moment, but everybody is welcome to enhance the mod.

[makman94]

whatever we discuss here are just...details . you all did here a superb mod which is working wayyyyyy more than expected .

yes...users get the 'feeling' 100% of the wolfpacks 'being around' and this is a 100% success of mod and ,also, this is something that ,not long ago, was 'out of range' .
you are showing to everyone what executables are capable for and the sad thing is that you are alone (as for programming itself and 'exploring' the .exe) and ,of course, you will 'hit' limits ! ...but...you have amazed me more than one times H.Sie ...so i am sure that you will 'strike' back again (sooner or later) !

[Robin40]

Originally Posted by h.sie

@Hitman: Your ideas are good and nearby. But I must jugde your ideas by my ability to program them!

well...from what you have done till now, we are justified to think that you can program anything you want