Realism- and gameplay-related hardcode fixes for SH3.EXE

[h.sie]

@SSB: No, I did only change Type=4 in .cfg file, but not in .mis file (simply forgotten). Would be great if that were the explaination...........By the way: Thanks for your work.

[Hitman]

It seems that there are many different units available (I know old news for you), but has someone checked if all of them have some kind of AI attached?

;Warships
Type0=Patrol Craft
Type1=Corvette
Type2=Frigate
Type3=Destroyer Escort
Type4=Destroyer
Type5=Minesweeper
Type6=Light Cruiser
Type7=Heavy Cruiser
Type8=Escort Carrier
Type9=Fleet Carrier
Type10=Battlecruiser
Type11=Battleship
Type12=Minelayer
Type13=Auxiliary Cruiser

;Merchant ships
Type100=Replenishment
Type101=Tanker
Type102=Cargo
Type103=Troop Transport
Type104=Coastal Vessel
Type105=Environmental

;Submarine
Type200=Submarine
Type201=Replenishment Submarine
Type202=Missile Submarine
Type203=Environmental

;Air
Type300=Fighter
Type301=Bomber
Type302=Dive Bomber
Type303=Torpedo Bomber
Type304=Patrol
Type305=Helicopter
Type306=Environmental

;Land
Type400=Vehicle
Type401=Tank
Type402=Armored Personnel Carrier
Type403=Artillery
Type404=Antiaircraft
Type405=Missile
Type406=Airbase
Type407=Naval Base
Type408=Environmental

;Ordnance
Type500=Mine
Type501=AntiSub Net

[urfisch]

i am gettin definitely excited, guys...this might become one of the best single mods ever made for sh3.

[h.sie]

No reason to get exited.

With SSB's help I could now place a VIIA AI-Sub in the Sea folder and give him Type=4 and cmdr_AIFight (destroyer AI). But its behaviour did not change: It only shoots if closer than 2-3km. If distance > 3m: No reaction. It does not try to get closer to the convoy in order to shoot.

Then I tested a german destroyer Type36A. Same behaviour: He shooted at the merchants, but he did not try to get closer to the convoy. So the destroyer AI will not help us to get some AI-Subs, which approach to a convoy until a distance of 1-2km is reached and then fire.

Aircraft does attack merchants. From that aspect, their AI seems to be better, but I fear it won't work to apply Aircraft-AI to a ship.

So what's left??

One could place an AI-Sub directly on a waypoint of a convoy. But it will be very hard (impossible?) to find the memory position of a number of waypoint in RAM among thousands of waypoints.

[SquareSteelBar]

Originally Posted by h.sie

...But its behaviour did not change...

That's what I also found but wanted to wait for a confirmation.
Ship AI seems to be not suitable for wolfpack purposes. BTW it looks like merchants use the same AI...

Originally Posted by h.sie

...So what's left??...

Iceberg?

Originally Posted by h.sie

...But it will be very hard (impossible?) to find the memory position of a number of waypoint in RAM among thousands of waypoints.

That's Uncle Carl's task...

[LGN1]

Hi,

that's weired In my tests I designated a C3 as type=4 and it started to attack me, change course in order to ram the boat, increased speed,... The only explanation I have is that the different behavior is only with respect to an enemy sub, but not a surface unit An easy test would be to change the nationality of the AI sub to British and see whether it attacks the player submarine.

If the range of the guns is far enough and also the sensor settings then a destroyer should shoot at the target even if does not move, shouldn't it? Wouldn't that help at least?

Cheers, LGN1

PS: As Hitman has suggested one should maybe start a series of tests with different types and see whether anything changes with respect to ship vs. ship engagements.

Another resort might be to create a unit in the aircraft folder that looks like a u-boat... However, I don't know whether this can be done easily. One advantage of this approach would be that it might be possible to change the depth of u-boat.

[h.sie]

@LGN1: Yes, I think the same. The DD comes closer to your sub in order to ram or throw depth charges. But merchants are fighted with guns without approaching. (This is according to my observations. Cannot completely exclude errors)

So what possibilities are left?

1) I am pessimistic regarding Aircraft AI. But maybe someone of you wants to try that idea? Would be very kind.

2) Try to enlarge the "action radius" (operating range) of the Sergbuto AI-Sub to maybe 10km.

3) Maybe an acceptable solution would be (as you suggested) a modified destroyer. With the following properties:

- invisible (?)
- shoots without sound & fire
- limited ammo, should sink max. 1-2 ships.
- one hit should heavily damage or sink a merchant
- ammo should be similar to that used by Sergbutos Sub (no water splashes).

4) I thought about minefields, but that does not work because the player sub is also affected.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Hitman

EDIT:

. Honestly, I don't think that swaskjer should take any offence from TDW's comment, as I don't believe it was intended to offend at all, but I understand he didn't like it.

TDW.. err . i mean Racerboy, has taken subtle jabs at S3D in many different threads, and craps on it every chance he gets. All the while laying on with an elitist asshat of an attitude.

I have no qualms calling it for what it is, and it is just that.

[h.sie]

Urfish: "if i can help, let me know".

Now I let you know! We need a unit that can be used to mimick a wolfpack attack. Details about the requirements, about current problems and possible solutions see the posts above. Do you have any experience regarding ship modelling, sensors, weapons and similar?

h.sie

[urfisch]

Originally Posted by h.sie

Urfish: "if i can help, let me know".

Now I let you know! We need a unit that can be used to mimick a wolfpack attack. Details about the requirements, about current problems and possible solutions see the posts above. Do you have any experience regarding ship modelling, sensors, weapons and similar?

h.sie

nope, sorry. no experience. but maybe i can get some with your help?!

[h.sie]

if I had experience, I wouldn't have asked for help

[urfisch]

k...i will have a look into the files of the sea units and look for solutions or new ideas. but i cant say if my suggestions will be a great help.

to me it seems, the unit is stuck with its sensors at 2-3km. but good ai destroyers see you at >4km range and ai airplanes see you at more than 8km. also the normal "ai" watch crew of your boat discovers enemy ships at 8km or more and triggers the event "enemy sighted".

i am sure, the uboat does not "accept" the settings of its new applied ai. dont know, what the reason could be. the mentioned reason its an "underwater" unit cant be the clue, as you already defined it as a surface unit. there must be something hidden, we havent discovered so far.

but i will have a look.

[h.sie]

great. I'll also do some research and there are 1 or 2 other people doing some tests in the background.....

[Anvart]

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

...
In SH5 we have a tool made by the devs (Goblin Editor) that makes modding easy in some areas. Now what should interest you all is that this tool can be used for SH3 (I've used it to open/change files in SH3). Note: It cannot save to .dat files so save to a .sim, .val, or .zon file and copy over to .dat file. This tool makes it REALLY easy to see/adjust .zon files

I already wrote... do not need to buy SH5 for watching of SH3's files.
RB ... oops, sorry TDW, as always, offers a convoluted and irrational way... it's his way of thinking ...
For most modders his sentence sounds very strange (to put it mildly)...
S3D is an excellent tool that solves the vast majority of tasks in SH3... This tool allows you to edit existing and add missing classes and parameters very easy.
This is the best tool in the history of SH.
If TDW does not like S3D and he does not use S3D to view the files, even (which I doubt) ... it's his choice ... may be why some of his mods don't have absolute purity and perfection.

@ skwasjer

S3D excellent tool!
S3D excellent tool!
S3D excellent tool!
S3D excellent tool!
S3D excellent tool!

[Hitman]

@LGN1: Yes, I think the same. The DD comes closer to your sub in order to ram or throw depth charges. But merchants are fighted with guns without approaching. (This is according to my observations. Cannot completely exclude errors)

So what possibilities are left?

1) I am pessimistic regarding Aircraft AI. But maybe someone of you wants to try that idea? Would be very kind.

2) Try to enlarge the "action radius" (operating range) of the Sergbuto AI-Sub to maybe 10km.

3) Maybe an acceptable solution would be (as you suggested) a modified destroyer. With the following properties:

- invisible (?)
- shoots without sound & fire
- limited ammo, should sink max. 1-2 ships.
- one hit should heavily damage or sink a merchant
- ammo should be similar to that used by Sergbutos Sub (no water splashes).

4) I thought about minefields, but that does not work because the player sub is also affected.

I remember that the GWX guys fixed the "long range" gunnery behaviour, so it is certain that longer shots are possible. Obviously the test with the destroyer indicates that the ship AI does just attack, and not actively try to close range with merchants, but this isn't so bad. In fact, if you can make invisible Uboats shoot at the convoy from larger ranges, up to 5-10km, some escorts would need to leave the area to engage them, which is exactly what we need.

The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that what we need is something that distracts the escorts for a while and gives the player a chance to get closer. Wether it is attained with invisible or visible uboats (Which you shouldn't anyway see normally) is the less important thing. More important would be to ensure that the escorts also do not see them, so they don't simply shoot with guns but instead are forced to leave the area to investigate.